Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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jamwal
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by jamwal »

Wasn't Ajay's design Russian?
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

You seem to be mistaking INS AJAY1961 with INS AJAY 1990. Which was an Abhay class ship. Based on the USSR design.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SNaik »

The only picture of INS Ajay (on the left) which I could find
https://twitter.com/OfficialGRSE/status ... 64/photo/3
What type of ship it was? Patrol?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chola »

IN and IAF exercise with USS Reagan begins!

https://mobile.twitter.com/livefist/sta ... 3015752711
Livefist
@livefist
.
@IndianNavy
ships INS Kochi and INS Teg rendezvous the USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group (CSG). MiG-29Ks off from Goa for aerial interaction with USN jets. IAF Su-30, Jaguars, AWACS, P-8Is etc also involved in the exercise.

Image
chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chola »

SNaik wrote: There are 3 of 055 already in service - 101, 102 and 105.

In fact, even Zumwalt at 15000 tons and Hyuga/Izumo at over 25000 tons are still called destroyers. Reminds me of Soviets, who called their CVs whatever cruiser, just not CV :)
brar_w wrote:It doesn't matter what they are called as long as they have the capability to slot into those roles if required. The next US Navy combatant will likely be a 12K ton vessel which is being called a DDG (DDG(X) in line with the 10K ton class Flight III Burke, and the 15K ton class Zumwalt.
The classification isn't as important as the size. All over the Indo-Pacific we are seeing trends towards bigger ships that can perform ever more complex missions requiring range and firepower. It could be the distances involved or the threat matrices in the Indo-Pacific. Russia might be going to smaller ships and the UK might be capping off at 7.5K tons with the Type 45 but that is not the case with the major maritime powers in Asia. India is not in the Atlantic or the Black Sea. Anyone of note in the Indo-Pacific is fielding 10K tons ships.

The new Korean KDX batch 2 will be 11K tons fully loaded with a new system of deeper and larger universal VLS cells. The Koreans actually reduced the total VLS count to accommodate longer and more powerful missiles.

At some point, the IN will have to go larger too. I think there is a good possibility that it is already has in the P-18. At least in the planning stage, I hope. The P-18/NGD rumor mill started three years ago. I don't want to just post stuff from "fanbois" but still I think we should explore some of the rumors. We can dismiss them if we see fit. But I don't think we should just say it would be nothing more than a "pride project" or some nefarious pro-import conspiracy like some are saying in this thread. P-18 if it happens will be Indian just like the P-17A or the P-15A/B.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

chola wrote:Russia might be going to smaller ships and the UK might be capping off at 7.5K tons with the Type 45 but that is not the case with the major maritime powers in Asia. India is not in the Atlantic or the Black Sea. Anyone of note in the Indo-Pacific is fielding 10K tons ships.
Dont want to nitpick but just pointing russia wants to move away from small ship concept but cannot due to its small budget.

Russians are not satisfied with 20380 class corvette (cost as much as a Talwar class FFG with all limitations for a corvette as per a Russian admiral) but cannot build more Grigorivich class FFG due to reliance on Ukraine for turbines and Gorshkov class is too expensive to build in large nos. As compromise and trying to find better balance they decided to go with 20386 which has ran into some delays.
chola wrote:At some point, the IN will have to go larger too. I think there is a good possibility that it is already has in the P-18. At least in the planning stage, I hope. The P-18/NGD rumor mill started three years ago.
Problem is if there is some credibility with some specs it is worth discussing but so far there is no official info. Any discussion turns into fantasy ship discussion.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

In pure speculation territory.

If we are thinking in terms of building a ship with ABM tasking then we will require a ship that is capable of deploying the ABM radar with the PAD and AAD missiles in significant numbers. In order to deal with any saturation attacks. For cost reasons I am thinking 1 panel LRTR on a rotating mount for ABM tasks. 4 panel MFSTR for self defense. Not sure how much power will be required to operate both together and even of they can be operated together without interference from one another.

With 48 to 60 ABMs and an equal number of LRSAMS. I am not thinking about any other tasking for the ship. I think that given the electricity, cooling and crew requirements the ship will need to be in the 12 to 14 K tons range.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by jamwal »

Why do we need ABM on ships when majority of such threats are land-based from Pakistan and China?
USA faces this missile threat from countries across oceans. We don't have any such requirement.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

To deal with any potential sea based ballistic missile that can be fired by PLAN ships against the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by jamwal »

Kindly check the logistics about such an event on each side. ABM ships are possible and useful only if we have few 100 billions lying around spare for such a remote possibility. CHina will most likely used its cheaper and more numerous land based ballistic missiles rather than SLBMs which it needs against USA and Europe.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Are you sure that by 2035 the PRC cannot have surface ships capable of shooting Anti ship ballistic missiles operating in the Indian ocean. The dimensions of the missile only have to be slightly longer than Shourya missile. A type 55 today has enough draught for it and can easily be fitted with a 15 meter deep VLS in the position VLS position immediately before the aft hanger spaces. It will just bring the hight of deck flush with the hanger roof. While reducing the numbers of VLS available in that location.

A follow-on ship with a deeper draught can accommodate a larger missile as well.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

Pratyush wrote:Are you sure that by 2035 the PRC cannot have surface ships capable of shooting Anti ship ballistic missiles operating in the Indian ocean. The dimensions of the missile only have to be slightly longer than Shourya missile. A type 55 today has enough draught for it and can easily be fitted with a 15 meter deep VLS in the position VLS position immediately before the aft hanger spaces. It will just bring the hight of deck flush with the hanger roof. While reducing the numbers of VLS available in that location.

A follow-on ship with a deeper draught can accommodate a larger missile as well.
They will. They also have the option of continuing to grow their DF series over the next 20-30 years to control how their adversaries deploy their carriers. The US Navy is deploying its IR-CPS, with 3,000 km range and an upcoming Anti-Ship capability, on the DDG-1000 class and the future Destroyer will likely carry them as well. China will follow suite with its larger combatants.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Barath »

SNaik wrote:The only picture of INS Ajay (on the left) which I could find
https://twitter.com/OfficialGRSE/status ... 64/photo/3
What type of ship it was? Patrol?
Good spot on that. I also found another pic

https://www.facebook.com/IndianNavy/pos ... 674550461/

This states that INS Ajay was commissioned in 1960 and was a patrol craft . It was transferred to Bangladesh as the Surma in 26 Jul 1974

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNS_Surma_(1974)

Wiki says that INS Nilgiri was the first major warship made in India from the keel up. Which had made me wonder if INS Ajay (1961) was a smaller ship. GRSE website definitely calls INS Ajay a warship.

Now in 1943, GRSE was supposed to build 3 x Bathurst class 1050t general purpose warships (usually referred to as corvettes, but potentially also minesweepers, escorts etc) . But these were broken up, incomplete near the end of the war in Mar 1945. Ironically, the British Indian navy did have Bathurst class corvettes serving. Making a patrol craft was definitely doable within GRSE capability in 1961

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathurst- ... nstruction

There's also the case that Scindia shipyard (now HSL ) claims to have built the first ship in Independent India, the JalUsha, launched in 1948 by Nehru.
https://www.hslvizag.in/content/7_1_Profile.aspx . So JalUsha is not a warship.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SNaik »

John wrote:.
Dont want to nitpick but just pointing russia wants to move away from small ship concept but cannot due to its small budget.

Russians are not satisfied with 20380 class corvette (cost as much as a Talwar class FFG with all limitations for a corvette as per a Russian admiral) but cannot build more Grigorivich class FFG due to reliance on Ukraine for turbines and Gorshkov class is too expensive to build in large nos. As compromise and trying to find better balance they decided to go with 20386 which has ran into some delays.
20386 is the size of Grigorovich and even more expensive than Gorshkov. Suggestions have been made that only one will be built and used as test ship for electric drive.
Russians are aiming at building more 20380 with upgraded electronics suite from 20385 and 22350M, larger Gorshkov follow-on of some 8000 tons and double the missile load. COGAG consisting of 2 M-90 + 2 M-70 is under tests.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Is the p18 design near completion?

The you tube site defence lovers India is suggesting that it will be approved for production of 6 units by next year. The displacement is stated to be 13 k tons.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

Pratyush wrote:Is the p18 design near completion?

The you tube site defence lovers India is suggesting that it will be approved for production of 6 units by next year. The displacement is stated to be 13 k tons.
I also saw in IDU channel on Youtube but couldn't find any news article anywhere... Not even IDRW...
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Too many fanboi social media posts to take most things serious nowadays. Always Double check with multiple trusted sources before believing anything.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by mody »

A lot of the YoutTube channles are under pressure to come up with so called new items or sound bites everyday. The CCS has not given approval for P18 heavy destroyers. Background design work might be under way. Even the youtube channels are quoting that the ships may be inducted from 2031 onwards. That's 10 years away.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

mody wrote:A lot of the YoutTube channles are under pressure to come up with so called new items or sound bites everyday. The CCS has not given approval for P18 heavy destroyers. Background design work might be under way. Even the youtube channels are quoting that the ships may be inducted from 2031 onwards. That's 10 years away.
Most of the P-18 concept exist primarily because lot of social media def enthusiasts want large # of cells for Barak-8 or XR-SAM but if we had the $$ even P-17a could have fitted with 64 Barak-8 (look at the ample space left behind Rbu-6000). Instead we are going with mix of Barak-8 and Sr-SAM ( will be fitted in future refit) to save $$.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Haridas »

I never give url of "Farce Magazine" but this is an exception:

Informative article by - Prasoon Chor-gupta

Rain of Deterrence: Construction in full swing for the naval base to house Indian Navy’s SSBNs and SSNs
https://forceindia.net/cover-story/rain-of-deterrence/
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

Haridas wrote:I never give url of "Farce Magazine" but this is an exception:

Informative article by - Prasoon Chor-gupta

Rain of Deterrence: Construction in full swing for the naval base to house Indian Navy’s SSBNs and SSNs
https://forceindia.net/cover-story/rain-of-deterrence/
interesting snippet "Every few years, warheads will have to be removed and serviced, typically for the replenishment of Tritium" ., only boosted fission warheads and fusion ones use tritium?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Barath »

@kit - Acknowledge. Also, I think there are options to use Lithium for the boosting

@Haridas: I don't agree with Sengupta that the Arihant reactor is a clone of the Russian OKA 700A/VM-4SG.

For one, we have been told that the Arihant reactor requires refueling every 10 years, as opposed to the Russian reactor. Not much is known about the Arihant reactor/propulsion, beyond the basics (PWR, 83Mw Thermal, enriched uranium, like most every other naval reactor) vs the Russian reactor "89.2mW thermal (29.73mW electric) and producing 18,000hp when using 44 per cent enriched uranium." requiring refueling after 17 years.

Per this, The fuel rods and pellets for the [Arihant ] reactor and cladding were engineered by Dr Anand from imported Uranium (from Russia) and Indian oxides

Also, per this, the number of fuel rods & assemblies in the Arihant do not agree with Sengupta's article. See also this paper
An 85 MW PWR powers it, which in turn drives one or two 35 MW steam turbines. It is reported to have 13 fuel assemblies, each containing
348 fuel rods, at an enrichment of 40 percent. The reactor went critical in August 2013.133 The Bhabha Atomic Research Center (BARC) at Kalpakkam designed this PWR, and operated a 20 MW prototype of the submarine reactor since 2003 for several years before building the 85 MW PWR.13
Most critically, if the design was simply gifted as off the shelf, there would not be as much need to create the S1 reactor on land at kalpakkam prior to use in Arihant

I'm not convinced by Sengupta's article crediting Russia for everything
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by sum »


Most critically, if the design was simply gifted as off the shelf, there would not be as much need to create the S1 reactor on land at kalpakkam prior to use in Arihant
From my recollection of any earlier article of his, he had mentioned that the S1 was the design supposed to go into S2 but it didnt work as well as expected and finally, scramble to take up the back up offer of off-the-shelf buy from Russia was taken up.

Of course, no clue if it is true but remember him mentioning about this when asked about S1
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

A shore based unit could be a proof of concept. But once the concept is proven, it can also be used as a training facility for the men about to deploy on the actual boat.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Barath »

sum wrote:

Most critically, if the design was simply gifted as off the shelf, there would not be as much need to create the S1 reactor on land at kalpakkam prior to use in Arihant
From my recollection of any earlier article of his, he had mentioned that the S1 was the design supposed to go into S2 but it didnt work as well as expected and finally, scramble to take up the back up offer of off-the-shelf buy from Russia was taken up.

Of course, no clue if it is true but remember him mentioning about this when asked about S1
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/interv ... 875212.ece

Anil Kakodkar is unambiguous in this interview, both that it is Designed, fabricated and executed in India by indian industries and that the one in Kalpakkam is an exact prototype of the one in the Arihant

I have much more credence on Kakodkar and this interview than on Prasun Sengupta.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Prasad »

L&T unveiled a new 10-man midget submarine that might be useful for the MARCOS.
Is This The Indian Navy’s New Special Operations Midget Submarine?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

Prasad wrote:L&T unveiled a new 10-man midget submarine that might be useful for the MARCOS.
Is This The Indian Navy’s New Special Operations Midget Submarine?
Quite interesting, definitely a force multiplier for special operations
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Nice,

The design certainly is interesting and is not just because of the potential to this specific craft.

But because it showcases design capacity of the team L&T has put together.

This ship has to be built. At the same time L&T also has to be funded to develop a domestic design to participate in the P 75I program under the supervision of the naval design organised.

Can we get so lucky that P75I will be a domestic design?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:Nice,

The design certainly is interesting and is not just because of the potential to this specific craft.

But because it showcases design capacity of the team L&T has put together.

This ship has to be built. At the same time L&T also has to be funded to develop a domestic design to participate in the P 75I program under the supervision of the naval design organised.

Can we get so lucky that P75I will be a domestic design?
So to say, the design itself is not the issue, but IN needs "certain" technologies and because of that "certain" system integration ,Russians do not have equivalent ones/not willing to share
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/141 ... 03747?s=20 ---> Commanding Officers of the Indian Navy’s Western Fleet at the annual fleet awards yesterday. Destroyer INS Kolkata wins best ship.

Congratulations to Kolkata CO Capt Prashant Handu & crew! Shano Varuna.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Amazing news....

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 13710?s=20 ---> P-15B destroyer INS Visakhapatnam to be commissioned into Indian Navy in November 2021.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 56001?s=20 ---> Indian Navy inducted OFB made SRCG. ToT acquired from Israel. Details on the picture.

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Khalsa »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 56001?s=20 ---> Indian Navy inducted OFB made SRCG. ToT acquired from Israel. Details on the picture.
is that an American browining (gun) spin off ?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

A question regarding the ToT

Do we have the knowledge now to replicate with this system - the gyro and the track & lock system?

Suppose we want to put a larger version of this system (say a multi- barrel one) then will we be able to do it?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Khalsa wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 56001?s=20 ---> Indian Navy inducted OFB made SRCG. ToT acquired from Israel. Details on the picture.
is that an American browining (gun) spin off ?
It is remote weapon system that can use many no of different guns the option we picked utilizes the .50 Caliber gun. Not sure if OFB manufactures them they are manufactured by numerous firms.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by viveks »

Rakesh wrote:Amazing news....

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 13710?s=20 ---> P-15B destroyer INS Visakhapatnam to be commissioned into Indian Navy in November 2021.
Any pics?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

viveks wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Amazing news....

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 13710?s=20 ---> P-15B destroyer INS Visakhapatnam to be commissioned into Indian Navy in November 2021.
Any pics?
This is latest... I note 360° coastal surveillance radars on the mast (any idea why?)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

That's MFSTAR radar. The primary sensor of the ship.

Used to track enemy and guide LRSAM against the enemy.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

I think he is talking about LW08 radar it is long range air search radar. May be dated but it gets the job done and MF STAR is the main radar. Interestingly most vessels these days which don’t even have a radar that capable as MF STAR choose to omit the secondary long range air search radar to cut costs and save space.

As for LW08, I believe RAN40l was originally to be fitted but blacklisting killed that. They will be replaced in due time with Tata built variant of Indra Lanza radar.

Or are you talking about Terma surface search radars by MF-STAR?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Pratyush wrote:That's MFSTAR radar. The primary sensor of the ship.

Used to track enemy and guide LRSAM against the enemy.
Not that or the LW-08 behind it, the 4 smaller ones below it protruding from the same mast... They were not there on INS Kolkata & Kochi. I think they're coastal surveillance radars (by the look) but I don't know the purpose.
John wrote: Or are you talking about Terma surface search radars by MF-STAR?
Yes. Could you please elaborate the difference in purpose of these three.
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