Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Nice catch.

The usual sources don't have any solution to the mystery.

Having said that even the kolkata class have spaces where these radars can be installed. But those appear to be empty.


At a first glance those appear to be surface search radar. That naval ships are required to have for safe navigation.

But if that's the case then why have so many ?

One answer could be that the main mast creats a shadow area aft of the module.

But if that's the case then place the radar on top of the MFSTAR set. Why install at least 3. Given the close proximity of the two sets. It's obvious that interference is not an issue.

Will have to look deeper into it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

RishiChatterjee wrote:Yes. Could you please elaborate the difference in purpose of these three.
They are a replacement for the Garpun which is located in other vessels, they are used for surface search: for navigation and for acquiring target for Brahmos. Maz had mentioned a while back that they are being installed on P-15b.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by mody »

Would be interesting to a comparison chart for the P15A and P15B class vessels.
mody
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/na ... hp&pc=U531

The purchase of MK45 127mm guns from the US to be scrapped. Makes sense, as the price was just way too high. Don't know if replacement 76mm guns are available or not. The P15B vessels are to start deliveries by the end of the year. Will they be commissioned without the main gun? In future when an indigenous 127mm gun is developed the 76mm guns may be replaced as part of a mid-life upgrade.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

^ Yea not surprised the price was pretty high they cost nearly as
much as Barak-8. This was partially responsible for the delay in P-15b construction and they are currently being fitted with Oto 76mm you can see that in the video. I doubt they will ever be fitted with another main gun I think it is just a way to put a positive spin on this whole debacle. I would much rather have domestic resources focusing on developing a new CIWS gun system than a new main gun.
wig
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by wig »

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... fic-291860

Indian Navy task force to deploy in South China Sea, Western Pacific
excerpts
A Task Force of the Indian Navy's Eastern Fleet will proceed on over two months overseas deployment to Southeast Asia, the South China Sea, and the Western Pacific from early August 2021, a statement from the Indian Navy said on Monday.
vessels to be deployed
The Indian Task Force comprises Guided Missile Destroyer Ranvijay, Guided Missile Frigate Shivalik, Anti-Submarine Corvette Kadmatt, and Guided Missile Corvette Kora.

The latter three ships are indigenously designed and are equipped with a versatile array of weapons and sensors, and are Made in India by defence shipyards.
activities
During the deployment in the Indo Pacific, the ships are scheduled to participate in bilateral exercises with the Vietnamese Peoples' Navy, the Republic of Philippines Navy, Republic of Singapore Navy (SIMBEX), and the Indonesian Navy (Samudra Shakti) and Royal Australian Navy (AUS-INDEX).

Further, they would also participate in multilateral exercise MALABAR-21 alongside the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Force, the Royal Australian Navy and the United States Navy in Western Pacific.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by titash »

mody wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/na ... hp&pc=U531

The purchase of MK45 127mm guns from the US to be scrapped. Makes sense, as the price was just way too high. Don't know if replacement 76mm guns are available or not. The P15B vessels are to start deliveries by the end of the year. Will they be commissioned without the main gun? In future when an indigenous 127mm gun is developed the 76mm guns may be replaced as part of a mid-life upgrade.
We've built the ATAGS locally. Likewise the 120mm Arjun rifled gun. We also have access to the old British 4.5" gun, the 100mm Russian pieces on Delhi/Talwar, and the 76mm OTO. Should be relatively simple to make a naval gun of a standardized 155 mm caliber that can be proliferated across all warships > 5000 tons. Cheap ammunition can be manufactured locally, guns can be rotated across the fleet & maintenance depots, and radar/GPS guided munitions can be progressively introduced. When the building blocks exit, why not go ahead and make the gun even if the performance is 10% less that "global golden standards". It'll still work just as well
hnair
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by hnair »

The naval guns nowadays have a lot of automation and stabilizing the muzzle within specified sea conditions is a challenge. Also the high rate of fire needs water cooled barrels, which am not sure India has worked on yet. What would be nice is to integrate whatever barrel, breech and targeting tech we have developed, with subcomponents like stabilizing, automation etc via design consultancy from other best of breed firms. Lot of learning can happen and delivery can be quicker
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

titash wrote:Should be relatively simple to make a naval gun of a standardized 155 mm caliber that can be proliferated across all warships > 5000 tons.
OTO 76 mm gets the job done IMO, large caliber gun system just to Bombard land based targets is waste of valuable space in the ship for mission that is obsolete in the current era. With advent of drones it is just too risky to park a ship by the shore in LOS to hit land targets.

Along with that small and medium caliber guns are also better suited at engaging aerial targets or swarm patrol (mounted with ATGM)/kamakazi boat attacks. So you are losing that capability by fitting just a large caliber main gun. That said I would rather spend precious development resource on other programs.

If we really need to bombard shore based targets develop short range land attack missiles that can be mounted in VLS cells or better yet find a way to park and fire K9s on future landing ships.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by srin »

How many shells does a typical destroyer carry? My supposition is a couple of hundred 76mm rounds ...
Lisa
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Lisa »

srin wrote:How many shells does a typical destroyer carry? My supposition is a couple of hundred 76mm rounds ...
Apparently 80,

https://www.seaforces.org/wpnsys/SURFAC ... -rapid.htm
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Lisa wrote:
srin wrote:How many shells does a typical destroyer carry? My supposition is a couple of hundred 76mm rounds ...
Apparently 80,

https://www.seaforces.org/wpnsys/SURFAC ... -rapid.htm
85 for SR and those are the ones stored in mount they can be reloaded by ammunition handlers even during operation.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by srin »

So, if it is 85 in the ready magazine, how many do they normally carry as reserve ?

Reason for the question is: is it even feasible to think that naval guns on destroyers would be able to provide sustained shelling of land targets ? Or should we look at them in a predominantly air defense role and only secondarily an anti-surface or anti-land role ?

Maybe you need those Iowa-class sort of heavy capital ships to really bombard land targets ... both in terms of sustainability of fire as well as firepower
vijayk
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by vijayk »


@TheWolfpackIN
Al Jazeera claims India is secretely building a huge military base in the Agalega island of Mauritius.
Says it has a huge 3 km long runway (long enough for fighters & P-8I) plus docks capable of hosting large naval ships, and other military facilities.
ramana
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ramana »

wig wrote:https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... fic-291860

Indian Navy task force to deploy in South China Sea, Western Pacific
excerpts
A Task Force of the Indian Navy's Eastern Fleet will proceed on over two months overseas deployment to Southeast Asia, the South China Sea, and the Western Pacific from early August 2021, a statement from the Indian Navy said on Monday.
vessels to be deployed
The Indian Task Force comprises Guided Missile Destroyer Ranvijay, Guided Missile Frigate Shivalik, Anti-Submarine Corvette Kadmatt, and Guided Missile Corvette Kora.

The latter three ships are indigenously designed and are equipped with a versatile array of weapons and sensors, and are Made in India by defence shipyards.
activities
During the deployment in the Indo Pacific, the ships are scheduled to participate in bilateral exercises with the Vietnamese Peoples' Navy, the Republic of Philippines Navy, Republic of Singapore Navy (SIMBEX), and the Indonesian Navy (Samudra Shakti) and Royal Australian Navy (AUS-INDEX).

Further, they would also participate in multilateral exercise MALABAR-21 alongside the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Force, the Royal Australian Navy and the United States Navy in Western Pacific.


A year ago when Galwan was going on folks would have a fit if anyone predicted that an IN flotilla would sail into the South China Sea.
Well here it is.
Vips
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

Russia is back to its usual tricks:

It has offered 3 Kilo submarines at a token price of Rs 1 only If:
For "re-fitting" these 30 year old subs from its fleet India pays $250 Million each :mrgreen:

Where is Philipov who claimed Russian could provide new Kilo's for $300-350 million each :lol:
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Source? Link?
Vips
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

Some 'defence channels' on Youtube.
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Ok
John
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Vips wrote:Russia is back to its usual tricks:

It has offered 3 Kilo submarines at a token price of Rs 1 only If:
For "re-fitting" these 30 year old subs from its fleet India pays $250 Million each :mrgreen:

Where is Philipov who claimed Russian could provide new Kilo's for $300-350 million each :lol:
This is not new news. It was reported last year but Philip kept insisting that new kilo will still cost the same. The news got picked up and reported again.

Truth is Russia cannot build new Kilos below 500 million due to their size (given our gold plating it will end up much more than that) and they need Lada/Amur to compete in export market but the design is good as dead.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/russia- ... ubmarines/

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-08-04
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by wig »

India building warships to hunt down subs close to its shores
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/delhi ... res-294557

All along the western coast, there are vast areas of shallow waters. Several of the refineries, crude-oil moorings, strategic oil storage reserves and key ports are on the west coast.

Yesterday, the project to make eight Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft (ASW-SWC) kicked off at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata. The keel of the first such warship was ‘laid virtually’ by Vice Chief of the Indian Navy Vice Admiral SN Ghormade.
Project to make 8 Shallow Water Craft
The project to make eight Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft (ASW-SWC) vessels kicked off at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata.
These ASW- SWC are designed for a speed of 25 knots and are capable of full-scale underwater surveillance of coastal waters and coordinated perations with aircraft.
The vessels will be able to destroy underwater targets. The ASW Shallow Water Craft have underwater sensors.
Guarding waters: 16 warships, 13k crore cost
Four vessels in use: INS Abhay, Ajay, Akshay, Agray
RishiChatterjee
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

wig wrote:India building warships to hunt down subs close to its shores
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/delhi ... res-294557
Cochin model
Image

Garden Reach model
Image
John
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Here are some more pics of GRSE/L&T ASW SWC corvette

https://newsonair.com/2021/08/07/grse-l ... ter-craft/
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SNaik »

Is there official bracket for "shallow waters"? Is it the same as "littoral zone" or?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

SNaik wrote:Is there official bracket for "shallow waters"? Is it the same as "littoral zone" or?
Yes I believe so.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 11938?s=20 ---->

Defence deal expected to be signed in coming weeks :

* 25 ALH Dhruv Mk3 for Rs 3,800 crore for Army Aviation Corps.
* 39 Klub ASHM for Rs 1,735 crore for Navy.
* 10 Naval Shipborne UAS.
* 125 DRWR-118 for Su30 MKI for Rs 1,000 crore.
* 6,00,000 Ak-203 for Rs 5,100 crore.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

John wrote:
SNaik wrote:Is there official bracket for "shallow waters"? Is it the same as "littoral zone" or?
Yes I believe so.
ASW-SWC has a range of 200 NM. 200 NM is the range of your EEZ. So in this case shallow waters are your EEZ. The convenient use of 200NM as range, means it has been built to scan our EEZ for submarines.

Make a 200 NM arc from the Andamans and you can sweep possible areas from where Chinese submarines can enter Indian Ocean. Do the same from western Gujarat for PNS submarines. With 16 nos ordered - we could have plenty of these to scan choke points.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

ASW-SWC has some articles calling in for a secondary anti aircraft role.
In their secondary role, they will be capable to sue intruding aircraft,....
....In their secondary role, these will be capable to prosecute intruding aircraft and lay mines in the sea bed.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... sw-swc.htm

How is that possible without onboard SAMs (Are they going to carry Shoulder launched SAMs). No Article mentions anything other than torpedoes, rockets and guns as armaments.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

YashG wrote:ASW-SWC has a range of 200 NM. 200 NM is the range of your EEZ. So in this case shallow waters are your EEZ. The convenient use of 200NM as range, means it has been built to scan our EEZ for submarines.
Range of 200 NM?? That doesn’t seem right even FAC have bigger ranges than that at full speed. It’s range per wiki is 1400 NM.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by srin »

Even PT boats of WW2 had a higher range ...
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

John wrote:
YashG wrote:ASW-SWC has a range of 200 NM. 200 NM is the range of your EEZ. So in this case shallow waters are your EEZ. The convenient use of 200NM as range, means it has been built to scan our EEZ for submarines.
Range of 200 NM?? That doesn’t seem right even FAC have bigger ranges than that at full speed. It’s range per wiki is 1400 NM.
It can operate in coastal waters within 200nm of the base port.
I meant this. I can agree 'Range' maynt be the right term.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... t-asw-swc/
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

^Operating radius perhaps?
Rakesh wrote:39 Klub ASHM for Rs 1,735 crore for Navy.
Guessing these are sub launched variants? Still quite expensive.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

John wrote:^Operating radius perhaps?
Yes perhaps
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

x posted from the Indo russia thread

Delivery of first Krivak frigates expected by mid 2023 to India: United Shipbuilding Corporation CEO





Sahil Pandey

Moscow [Russia], August 24 (ANI):

Delivery of first Krivak frigates expected by mid 2023 to India: United Shipbuilding Corporation CEO



Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Alexey Rakhmanov on Monday said the first of two Krivak class stealth frigates built by Russia is expected to be delivered by the middle of 2023 to India.

"Due to Coronavirus crisis, we had delays in execution of some of the stages of construction. Currently, the delay in construction and delay in execution is probably 8 months. The first ship should be delivered in the middle of 2023," Rakhmanov said while addressing a press conference in "ARMY-2021" in Moscow.
He also stated that Indian technicians would be invited for the ongoing construction of two frigates at the Yantar shipyard.

"We are inviting Indian specialists so that they can participate in the completion of construction and familiarise with the equipment. The second stage will be much more substantial when we start production at Goa Shipyard which will not only be equipment specific but also technology-driven," Rakhmanov added.

In October 2016, India and Russia signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for four Krivak or Talwar stealth frigates where two are to be procured directly from Russia and two more to be built by the Goa Shipyard Limited.

The keel for the first of the two frigates was laid at the Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) in January this year and the second in June. The two ships are to be delivered by GSL by 2026.

The Indian Navy currently operates six Talwar class frigates and they are the most numerous foreign-built surface ships in its fleet.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Tanaji »

Stupid question: why more Talwar class rather than Shivalik class? Is the desire to have lesser tonnage ships as they would be cheaper to operate?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The Project 17 Shivalik Class is being succeeded by the Project 17A Nilgiri Class. Why they went for the (improved) Talwar Class over additional Shivalik Class is a mystery to me. Perhaps John can shed some more light on this.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Tanaji wrote:Stupid question: why more Talwar class rather than Shivalik class? Is the desire to have lesser tonnage ships as they would be cheaper to operate?

It not necessary. It is generally accepted that the ratio of length to beam is the deciding factor regarding the efficiency of propulsion efficiency and speed. The finer the ratio the more efficient the ship will be for given power output.

The specific fuel efficiency of the specific powerplant is a secondary issue.

Personally I see this purchase as a scam of paying Russians some bribe.

While getting the GSL into large ship building business. the funny thing is that the longest slipway is over 180 meters long. So the length argument that the yard could not build a p17 is no longer valid. If the argument is that the yard needed technical assistance. Then the same could have been provided by either GRSE or MDL.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

Pratyush wrote:
Tanaji wrote:Stupid question: why more Talwar class rather than Shivalik class? Is the desire to have lesser tonnage ships as they would be cheaper to operate?

It not necessary. It is generally accepted that the ratio of length to beam is the deciding factor regarding the efficiency of propulsion efficiency and speed. The finer the ratio the more efficient the ship will be for given power output.

The specific fuel efficiency of the specific powerplant is a secondary issue.

Personally I see this purchase as a scam of paying Russians some bribe.

While getting the GSL into large ship building business. the funny thing is that the longest slipway is over 180 meters long. So the length argument that the yard could not build a p17 is no longer valid. If the argument is that the yard needed technical assistance. Then the same could have been provided by either GRSE or MDL.
It makes sense for the GOI to keep their weapon suppliers on tenterhooks and feed them tidbits every once in a while.

ukraine now sees us as a big player worth cultivating.

the more we are able to diversify, the safer we may become (within limits, of course)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

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