Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

ldev wrote:
John wrote: Unf not much room internally for that it’s current internal hard point can only handle something the size of Mark 54 torpedoes so even more constrained than external hard points, so cannot even carry harpoon size missiles internally.
USN has commissioned a project to integrate the LRASM (Long Range Air to Ship Missile - 450 kg warhead, 600 km + range) plus JDAM & SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) on the P-8 - making it into a long range strike platform. It is worth it with a fleet of 200+. For the IN with 12 P-8s, going in for a bespoke solution with the Brahmos is just not worth it, and you would need approval of US and Russia for it I presume. Good Luck in getting that!!. Instead of that, get those TU-142s out of retirement and sling 3 Brahmos under each wing if the IN is willing to go through the nightmare of maintaining the TU-142s!! Somebody more familiar can probably detail how many hours of ground maintenance were needed for every hour of flying towards the end of their life.
Not worth it.
kit
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

fanne wrote:so we cannot build new submarines as no vendor is coming forth for P75I, will not order more P75 boats, would not retrofit (depending on technical feasibility) a force multiplier AIP (that gives any sub 14-xx days of submerged capability) to existing subs....lets twiddle thumb and wait
wonder what it would cost for an SSN fleet in lieu of 75i , IN would still need electric subs for littoral seas
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

SSN is anyway coming. If you go by OSINT, a Kilo is currently getting upgraded with what Mazagon has learned from Scorpene (further upgraded on top of Russian upgrade)- Lithium battery, new generation sensors, better electronics etc. Perhaps we can also put the AIP plug (which is always harder, as putting a plug disturbs the buoyancy, overall sailing characters etc.)

please see link below -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcWIX-BlpyY
John
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

ldev wrote:USN has commissioned a project to integrate the LRASM (Long Range Air to Ship Missile - 450 kg warhead, 600 km + range) plus JDAM & SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) on the P-8 - making it into a long range strike platform. It is worth it with a fleet of 200+. For the IN with 12 P-8s, going in for a bespoke solution with the Brahmos is just not worth it, and you would need approval of US and Russia for it I presume.
We should be able to integrate anti ship variant of NGARM on P-8 without any approval from US. It’s fire and forget missile so there’s no integration needed with APY-10 radar.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Not worth it.
:D
ldev
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ldev »

John wrote:
ldev wrote:USN has commissioned a project to integrate the LRASM (Long Range Air to Ship Missile - 450 kg warhead, 600 km + range) plus JDAM & SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) on the P-8 - making it into a long range strike platform. It is worth it with a fleet of 200+. For the IN with 12 P-8s, going in for a bespoke solution with the Brahmos is just not worth it, and you would need approval of US and Russia for it I presume.
We should be able to integrate anti ship variant of NGARM on P-8 without any approval from US. It’s fire and forget missile so there’s no integration needed with APY-10 radar.
NGARM has a 60 kg warhead vs 200 kg for Brahmos and 450 kg for LRASM. How much damage will it cause to a 6000 or 10,000 ton surface ship and how many will needed to be fired in a salvo for it have a meaningful impact? What about the actual weapon interface even if it is fire and forget? I think the smarter option is to integrate the NGARM anti ship variant with the SU-30 and get the US add on PGMs for the P-8 if required e.g. JDAM is already being acquired for Tejas so get them also for the P-8 if needed. Why re-invent the wheel?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

You don't often need to sink a ship to make a strike effective. Taking out its radar, combat system, or other sensitive electronics is often as good as that as it likely takes it out for the duration of the conflict. Also, if you take away the advanced phased array radars you make them blind which then opens the vessel up to more direct attacks if one indeed wants to cause more hurt. Both the USN's ARM's (AARGM and its ER variant) have the capability to hit moving maritime targets, and the AARGM has even demonstrated that via live fire testing.
ldev
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ldev »

Be as it may, it is just not worth it IMO. At 600 kg per missile, an SU-30 can carry at least 4 NGARM's on it's hardpoints and easier to integrate and the IAF has a dedicated maritime strike SU-30 squadron. I doubt that the P-8 will increase that capacity and with all the issues relating to integration, is it worth it?. IMO it is better to let the USN do the heavy lifting regarding additional PGM integration on the P-8 and the IN can always get those PGMs if a need is felt.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

Not sure PGM's on a P-8 will be much useful. The best option may be to wait for the JSM to be integrated to it (which is in the plan) and use it to replace the Harpoon or have both with the JSM being the longer ranged option.
ldev
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:Not sure PGM's on a P-8 will be much useful. The best option may be to wait for the JSM to be integrated to it (which is in the plan) and use it to replace the Harpoon or have both with the JSM being the longer ranged option.
I look at the potential adversaries such airborne platforms will face e.g. the 13,000 ton Type 055 PLAN destroyers which are coming into service now have the HHQ-9B air defence system which reputedly has a range of 200 km. It is the naval version of China's HQ-9 itself a modernized and updated S-300 - it won't have the air defence vulnerability of the Russian Navy Moskva e.g. So any non low observable platform should have stand off weapons with a greater range than 200 km. For the IN the anti ship version of NGARM fits that requirement as well as the air launched Brahmos both being launched from an SU-30 with a large RCS. For the P-8, the LRASM will fit that criteria, and the JSM provided that it has a range >200 km for the P-8 to be beyond the HHQ-9B missile range.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

Both JSM and LRASM have significantly greater ranges then that. Even the block 2 AL harpoon should extend out to beyond 200 km.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Prasad »

You don't want to send your slow P8s within 300km of your enemy surface group. The NGARM has a 100km range.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Prasad wrote:You don't want to send your slow P8s within 300km of your enemy surface group. The NGARM has a 100km range.
Technically the range is 200+ km range when launch from higher altitude. Also you can have one P-8 flying high at a distance relaying targeting information to the strike force consisting of Su-30mki and P-8i which is flying lo below radar horizon.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

Mazagaon Dock's capacities to make submarines to become idle.

The substantial submarine manufacturing capabilities of state-owned Mazagaon Dockyards Ltd are set to become idle, with the last of the Kalvari (Scorpene) class being launched next week, bringing an end to the Navy's Project 75 to acquire six conventional submarines.

Highly skilled workforce, specially trained to work on pressure hulls, is likely to be moved to other warship projects that the yard has bagged as plans to manufacture next-generation submarines have hit delays.

MDL has a capacity to construct 11 submarines at any given time and is a lead contender for the Navy's Project 75 I - a new class of submarines equipped with air independent propulsion that can stay underwater for days. However, delays in the project -due to concerns raised by foreign partners on sharing of responsibility, conditions of technology transfer and the planned budget - means that India's top submarine builder will be without work for a few years.

MDL has invested close to ₹1,000 crore in upgrading and modernising facilities, including a new wet basin, submarine section assembly workshop and a goliath crane to gear for upcoming requirements of the Navy. "The submarine division has two dedicated parallel submarine assembly lines fully ready for operations. With these assembly lines, MDL has a capacity to undertake construction of 11 submarines at any given time," said Vice Admiral (retd) Narayan Prasad, CMD, MDL.

MDL is the only shipyard in India which has successfully constructed conventional submarines with two different technologies - the German SSK class submarines as well as French Scorpene class submarines. MDL has in the past given an offer to the Navy to construct additional Kalvari class submarines. The plan, which sources said could be revived, was to use the existing design that can be easily constructed at MDL and upgrade the sensors and weapons.

As no new submarine order has been placed, MDL now plans to use its specialised infrastructure and workers for activities like submarine repairs and opportunities in the international markets. The yard has an order book of Rs 46,000 crore, which primarily consists of surface ships like the Visakhapatnam Class Project 15B stealth destroyers and Nilgiri Class Project 17A stealth frigates.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Second time in the last 25 years. The cost or human resource redeployment will not be considered by the Indian MOD. If and when a decision is made to build submarines again at MDL.

The worst part is that the new sub building centre has the ability to construct 11 submarines at one time. That facility will be sitting idle.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vidur »

Having interacted closely both officially and socially with Gens, AMs, Admirals over a long period, I could not agree more with this assessment. There has been a marked increase in this defensive thinking in the last few yrs

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA
sum
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by sum »

Pratyush wrote:Second time in the last 25 years. The cost or human resource redeployment will not be considered by the Indian MOD. If and when a decision is made to build submarines again at MDL.

The worst part is that the new sub building centre has the ability to construct 11 submarines at one time. That facility will be sitting idle.
How do we manage to get into the same situation when even a layman knew the past mistake even before we embarked on the Scorpene saga?

Are we really a nation of such dumb planners and executors? What other reason can we give for such acts repeating over and over
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

Vidur wrote:Having interacted closely both officially and socially with Gens, AMs, Admirals over a long period, I could not agree more with this assessment. There has been a marked increase in this defensive thinking in the last few yrs

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA
China’s string of pearls policy is working, that’s the dirty little secret. IN 2-3 decades ago even was chest thumping and calling itself a blue water navy that controlled the IOR, they are now looking to buy more coastal missile batteries and inducting NOPVs

I don’t know what happened to the IN’s mojo but they have gotten very defensively postured in the last decade or so, can there be a link to post 26/11 when the GoI effectively gave them tbe ICG’s job?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

sum wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Second time in the last 25 years. The cost or human resource redeployment will not be considered by the Indian MOD. If and when a decision is made to build submarines again at MDL.

The worst part is that the new sub building centre has the ability to construct 11 submarines at one time. That facility will be sitting idle.
How do we manage to get into the same situation when even a layman knew the past mistake even before we embarked on the Scorpene saga?

Are we really a nation of such dumb planners and executors? What other reason can we give for such acts repeating over and over
Doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result


At the very very least they should have ordered 3-4 more modified Scorpenes with AIP modules from MDL, simply casting away all that investment and a facility that can make 11 subs simultaneously is beyond all reason, it’s not like P75I is even close to being a reality. Best case they select a platform 3-5 years from now, first ship won’t come for a decade from now by that time MDL’s investments are squandered entirely
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Vidur wrote:Having interacted closely both officially and socially with Gens, AMs, Admirals over a long period, I could not agree more with this assessment. There has been a marked increase in this defensive thinking in the last few yrs

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA
Sir, I'm not entirely sure about the basis of this theory - IN is not keen on submarines because it is increasingly becoming a defensive "sadbhavana", flag-waving force. They are actively pursuing SSNs, CVBGs, and loading up their assets with firepower ala Bmos. Doesn't seem very defensive to me. In any case, I don't see how diesel powered SSKs are going to make up an offensive asset - the range is ridiculously limited. A CBG spearheaded by 65K ton CV otoh is exactly opposite.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Cain Marko wrote:
Vidur wrote:Having interacted closely both officially and socially with Gens, AMs, Admirals over a long period, I could not agree more with this assessment. There has been a marked increase in this defensive thinking in the last few yrs

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA
..... In any case, I don't see how diesel powered SSKs are going to make up an offensive asset - the range is ridiculously limited.
Seems SSK is pretty offensive platform:

Note: I am putting this video as its created in some detail, but I am sure our Shishumar and Scorpenes have some similar capabilities but since their videos aren't available I have posted this SMX Ocean video.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vidur »

Cain Marko wrote:
Vidur wrote:Having interacted closely both officially and socially with Gens, AMs, Admirals over a long period, I could not agree more with this assessment. There has been a marked increase in this defensive thinking in the last few yrs

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA
Sir, I'm not entirely sure about the basis of this theory - IN is not keen on submarines because it is increasingly becoming a defensive "sadbhavana", flag-waving force. They are actively pursuing SSNs, CVBGs, and loading up their assets with firepower ala Bmos. Doesn't seem very defensive to me. In any case, I don't see how diesel powered SSKs are going to make up an offensive asset - the range is ridiculously limited. A CBG spearheaded by 65K ton CV otoh is exactly opposite.
I am
Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Vidur wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Sir, I'm not entirely sure about the basis of this theory - IN is not keen on submarines because it is increasingly becoming a defensive "sadbhavana", flag-waving force. They are actively pursuing SSNs, CVBGs, and loading up their assets with firepower ala Bmos. Doesn't seem very defensive to me. In any case, I don't see how diesel powered SSKs are going to make up an offensive asset - the range is ridiculously limited. A CBG spearheaded by 65K ton CV otoh is exactly opposite.
I am
Good for you.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Vidur wrote:Having interacted closely both officially and socially with Gens, AMs, Admirals over a long period, I could not agree more with this assessment. There has been a marked increase in this defensive thinking in the last few yrs

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA
I have been thinking about this post for sometime.

Two points come to mind.

Is this fear on the basis of RaGa's stupidity with the last big ticket defense acquisition. i.e, chokidar choor hai.

Or, is this a manifestation of keep your head down or the big power's will attack before we are ready.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:
Vidur wrote:Having interacted closely both officially and socially with Gens, AMs, Admirals over a long period, I could not agree more with this assessment. There has been a marked increase in this defensive thinking in the last few yrs

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... xYHmAkNzrA
I have been thinking about this post for sometime.

Two points come to mind.

Is this fear on the basis of RaGa's stupidity with the last big ticket defense acquisition. i.e, chokidar choor hai.

Or, is this a manifestation of keep your head down or the big power's will attack before we are ready.
Pratyush. This is my opinion below FWIW.

Generally conformists tend to pick up rank. The Indian armed forces are no different. Independent thinkers and aggressive go-getters get weeded out as any senior officer do not want "trouble makers". The few and far between "good officers" pick up rank despite the system.
An officer once told me that the peak of "josh" and "derring-do" is till Major. Once the officer is starting to get close to Col / Staff College then career considerations come into the mix.

To Vidur's point above the IA has always been defensive in its mindset and some of this can be traced back to successive governments that have been passive 1971 and more recent vintage notwithstanding.

The IAF on the other hand by its very nature is more likely to be taking the fight to the enemy and in air to air combat being of a defensive mindset is anathema.
I don't know much about the Navy so will desist from commenting on that..
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Fighting for a 3 carrier fleet isn't defensive. But the doctrinal blindness of the IN has always been submarines. Their planning, execution, support for Armanirbharta etc have all been hugely deficient in this area, which is in contrast to their approach towards surface combatants.

This is frustrating at so many levels. Having a good submarine fleet is a force multiplier like no other. They're truly multi-role - area denial, defensive & offensive - all rolled into one.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I don't believe there is any meaningful opposition to a three aircraft carrier navy from the decision makers. The opposition lies in what *TYPE* of aircraft carrier the Navy is looking to acquire for its three aircraft carrier navy. And this acquisition model is true with other acquisitions that the Navy is doing as well. There appears to be a complete lack of thought in the idea of "vessel classes" and the navy just wants to jump from one proven type to a significantly more complex (and expensive) type.

* Instead of a follow on (improved) Vikrant Class vessel...the navy wants to jump to a super carrier with catapult launch. And a follow-on Vikrant Class vessel will come much quicker than their proposed super carrier.

* Instead of a follow on (improved) Scorpene Class boat...the navy wants to jump to complex ocean going SSKs. P-75I is sailing listlessly in the halls of the MoD and at Naval HQ. Additional Scorpene Class boats is not something the Navy wants to entertain.

This model hurts the navy's own preparedness and the nation as a whole because these programs never see the light of day. And when pushed to a corner, the navy then fights back with the standard argument that the country does not value or understand the concept of naval air power. The nation certainly would, if you are willing to temporarily scale back grandoise plans of a 65,000 ton, nuclear-powered, EMALS equipped, aircraft carrier or insisting on unobtanium in the form of 100% ToT from the P-75I vendors.

Crawl-Walk-Run is not something the navy is interested in doing. Navy Admirals are living in la-la land, after numerous Malabar exercises and are fantasizing about capabilities that the country just cannot afford.
Prem Kumar wrote:This is frustrating at so many levels. Having a good submarine fleet is a force multiplier like no other. They're truly multi-role - area denial, defensive & offensive - all rolled into one.
You have committed hara-kiri by saying the above.

You don't even need an Army or an Air Force or Naval Submarines. Just focus on super carriers. Even the carrier battle group is not necessary. Just a stand-alone, EMALS equipped, super carrier will strike fear into the heart of the enemy. This is the gyan we are being fed on BRF :)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by bala »

58 years, 2 navies, one war: A short history of one of the world's longest-serving aircraft carriers

https://www.yahoo.com/news/58-years-2-n ... 00007.html

Aircraft carriers have been a dominant naval asset for nearly a century.

Their high cost and sturdy construction means those flattops often serve for decades.

One of the longest-serving was HMS Hermes, which spent a total of 58 years in two navies.

But carriers, once built, can serve for a long time. One of the longest-serving was HMS Hermes, which spent a total of 58 years in the British and Indian navies. HMS Hermes was a conventionally powered Centaur-class flattop that was laid down in 1944. Construction was paused for several years and the carrier wasn't launched until 1953. It entered service with the Royal Navy in 1959. Hermes was refit again in the early 1980s, when the threat from Soviet submarines prompted the Royal Navy to repurpose the ship for anti-submarine warfare. This modification also converted Hermes into a Short Take-Off, Barrier Arrested Recovery, or STOBAR, carrier. A ski jump was added to Hermes' bow and it once more hosted fighter jets, namely the Sea Harrier, which was designed for short and vertical takeoffs and landings. The carrier was sold to India in 1986. After undergoing a refit, the carrier was commissioned into the Indian navy as INS Viraat in a ceremony held in the UK in May 1987. After almost six decades in service, the Hermes was finally decommissioned by the Indian Navy in 2017. In 2019, the Indian government decided to scrap the carrier.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

All points noted and true bala.

However please find out - from the Navy's own admission - when their proposed super carrier is set to arrive.

A Navy admiral said 15 years from keel laying to commissioning for their proposed super carrier. And because this will be done in an Indian shipyard, you can comfortably add another 5 years to that figure. So two decades for a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier. As per Cochin SY, a follow on Vikrant vessel can be completed in 7 years. Lets stretch that to 10 years, but it will still be quicker than their proposed super carrier.

How viable is the Vikramaditya really? How much longer is the Navy going to keep that vessel afloat? How many times does she go out to sea in a year? Does she spend more time at dock or at sea? The Indian Navy will have just one viable aircraft carrier - the Vikrant - post August 2022. By the early 2030s, does the Navy want two Vikrant Class vessels or just one such vessel? Because a super carrier will nowhere be on the horizon at that time. If they are willing to wait for 15 - 20 years for a super carrier, then where is the urgency of a three carrier navy?

Same situation with the submarine arm. Shortage of submarines, but I will only take the best. Same situation with the air force. Squadron shortage, but I will only accept 114 MRFA and nothing else. Rinse & Repeat the same line, over and over and over again.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by bala »

Rakesh wrote:All points noted and true bala.
However please find out - from the Navy's own admission - when their proposed super carrier is set to arrive.
Admiral saab, I yield to you for matters on Navy, me, know only "thoda sa" on Aircrafts since my father was in Ministry of Defence Air Technical wing.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Bala this is not about Navy or AF but actually Grand Admiral talking about the propensity of the forces as a whole not being pragmatic and indulging in the kind of fantastical thinking that pubescent teenagers are more associated with..
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by vimal »

If only our ala afars had heard about great being the enemy of good.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

Go back about 10 or so pages, one can see people talking about why ACs are sitting ducks for land based ballistic missiles., easy targets, India as "unsinkable aircraft carrier" " Andaman fortress" etc etc.. only vry few were supporting even the third AC., if GDP was a guide, India should be at least getting 2-3 more by 2035 . the last CDS was pragmatic but given the long lead times for AC in Indias context there should be a continuous support for ACs for the next 30 years or so. I was thinking 5 AC groups by 2040, 2 for expeditionary roles and 2, one for each sea board and other in reserve/maintenance
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

kit, forget 2 - 3 by 2035. That is like less than 13 years away. If the IN gets even one by 2035, consider it a great achievement.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by RCase »

Rakesh wrote:
This model hurts the navy's own preparedness and the nation as a whole because these programs never see the light of day. And when pushed to a corner, the navy then fights back with the standard argument that the country does not value or understand the concept of naval air power. The nation certainly would, if you are willing to temporarily scale back grandoise plans of a 65,000 ton, nuclear-powered, EMALS equipped, aircraft carrier or insisting on unobtanium in the form of 100% ToT from the P-75I vendors.

Crawl-Walk-Run is not something the navy is interested in doing. Navy Admirals are living in la-la land, after numerous Malabar exercises and are fantasizing about capabilities that the country just cannot afford.
I believe the armed forces top brass need to be held accountable for their decisions when they constantly shift the goalposts. Ruthlessly make heads roll when there is insistence of unobtanium for wars situations that are unlikely for the country and same for the MIC if they do not deliver in a timely fashion. Our armed forces need to be able to project power in India's backyard as a priority and not in some far away lands with super carriers (unless the armed forces can make a compelling case that they will need to sail to far off lands to defend 'democracy' like the USA :) ).

Crawl-Walk-Run is an absolute necessity for the country to evolve its own competence and be taken seriously. Atmanirbhar is the right thing as every Rupee spent by the government locally on the defense industry not only improves GDP, but also increases tax revenues from employees and contractors in the MIC.

The ISRO success story needs to be emulated by the MIC and armed forces. They did not try to launch a manned mission to the moon as their first goal. We have seen the crawl-walk-run with their rockets to the point where they have evolved to a high level of sophistication and technology.
KSingh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

kit wrote:Go back about 10 or so pages, one can see people talking about why ACs are sitting ducks for land based ballistic missiles., easy targets, India as "unsinkable aircraft carrier" " Andaman fortress" etc etc.. only vry few were supporting even the third AC., if GDP was a guide, India should be at least getting 2-3 more by 2035 . the last CDS was pragmatic but given the long lead times for AC in Indias context there should be a continuous support for ACs for the next 30 years or so. I was thinking 5 AC groups by 2040, 2 for expeditionary roles and 2, one for each sea board and other in reserve/maintenance
15 years from keel laying to inducting IAC-2 so IN will have max 1.5 carriers (Vikky continuing to fall apart) until early 2040s whilst PLAN are building 1 every 4-5 years

This is what really scares me about the IN- they are letting themselves get behind in every area. subs, minesweepers, carriers etc. For the size of the economy the IN is alarmingly underweight and this doesn’t look like it will be rectified for our lifetimes


All 3 services have become very reactive and defensively postured in the past 15 years, at this point maintaining a marginal edge on Pakistan seems all they can manage/are interested in.


India will have a $10Tn economy (mid 2030s) with 1.5 STOBAR carriers, maybe 2 SSN (best case), 5-6 SSBNs, 10(?) SSKs. Maybe a handful of NGD/NGF but otherwise the same sort of fleet as they’ll have by mid-2020s

Where’s all the money going? Even if you acknowledge they get the smallest bite of the apple the cumulative CAPEX by 2040 will be 100s of billions. Somehow Japan and Korea are able to get more bang for their buck than India
Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Admiral sir, you got the nail on the head with 2 apt examples. Unfortunately this disease for unobtanium persists with the air force as well... Just look at the catastrophe with the netra. They couldn't have ordered 6 more when the line was humming and the bird had shown it's mettle? Instead they want pie in sky shyte like an ifr combined with an aew! Who's the hell thought up that one I wonder. There are other examples like the Astra and Tejas that demonstrate a bewildering apathy towards competitive homegrown systems. This when pilots and jawans die needlessly using aging platforms. What to say of army and Arjun!

These are flagship programs that the country pays for through it's nose and God only knows how many stars need to be aligned to get them rolling, and completed. And after a successful product is made ready, they order bits and pieces! Aaargh! Nigh on 20 years on brf saar, and we are subjected to the same. It'll drive anyone to drink!

Something is seriously sick in the Armed forces decision making.
kit
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

KSingh wrote:15 years from keel laying to inducting IAC-2 so IN will have max 1.5 carriers (Vikky continuing to fall apart) until early 2040s whilst PLAN are building 1 every 4-5 years

This is what really scares me about the IN- they are letting themselves get behind in every area. subs, minesweepers, carriers etc. For the size of the economy the IN is alarmingly underweight and this doesn’t look like it will be rectified for our lifetimes


All 3 services have become very reactive and defensively postured in the past 15 years, at this point maintaining a marginal edge on Pakistan seems all they can manage/are interested in.


India will have a $10Tn economy (mid 2030s) with 1.5 STOBAR carriers, maybe 2 SSN (best case), 5-6 SSBNs, 10(?) SSKs. Maybe a handful of NGD/NGF but otherwise the same sort of fleet as they’ll have by mid-2020s

Where’s all the money going? Even if you acknowledge they get the smallest bite of the apple the cumulative CAPEX by 2040 will be 100s of billions. Somehow Japan and Korea are able to get more bang for their buck than India
India needs to spend more on defence., but i think why this has not happened is some of the private players have not "come of age" .. a 2.5-3 percent of GDP up from a measly 2.1 ., but the GOI maybe ( rightly) focussing on dual capable industries and infrastructure at present much like what China did., keep in mind China markedly increased their military exp only after consolidation their civilian dual role industrial capabilities.
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

More or more wisely!!

More is not gonna happen considering the financial position ATM.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/151 ... BCwg7lLXsA ---> India's sixth home-built Scorpène Class submarine (Vagsheer) to be launched (put into water) on April 20th at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai. Will be commissioned into the Indian Navy later this year.

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