Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Kakarat
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... i14SPONdOA (Video)
Successful maiden #BrahMos firing by #INSDelhi from an upgraded modular launcher once again demonstrated long range strike capability of BrahMos alongwith validation of integrated Network Centric Operations from frontline platforms (1/2)
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... i14SPONdOA
This firing is yet another shot in the arm for #AatmaNirbharBharat (2/2)
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fanne
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

are these brahmos expiring so many firings, or testing the extended version. But why test it multiple times?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

fanne wrote:are these brahmos expiring so many firings, or testing the extended version. But why test it multiple times?
INS Delhi just went in for a mid-life refit. Switched out the subsonic Kh-35 Uran with the supersonic BrahMos. So this is a validation of the vessel being able to fire the BrahMos. INS Mysore and INS Mumbai (the other two Delhi Class vessels) will also conduct similar validation tests post integration of their BrahMos upgrade.

@Kakarat: Thank you for posting this. Aap Ke Muh Mein Ghee Shakkar. So happy to see this!! :)

INS Delhi is very special to me. I was onboard the vessel 22 years ago - 14 Aug 2000. Those Kh-35 Uran launchers were massive in person. I can only imagine how big those BrahMos launchers will be. On that same day, I visited the (now retired) Viraat and a Kilo Class boat. A memorable day.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Neela »

Please move to Newbie thread if appropriate.

Listening to BlueSkiespodcast on Sub hunting with Kamovs , I heard this sentence:
- Sub hunting is very challenging
- Before we start scanning an area, we get "intelligence" beforehand and then the search begins ( P81s , MADs, etc come in at this stage)

Nothing further was elaborated on "intelligence" and was left at that point keeping secrecy in mind.
Now, if the assets to search/scan have to start scanning vast swathes it obviously means that the intelligence is patchy or significant time has elapsed.

Can someone elaborate on the intelligence on what are the typical sources?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:...
Which is why you are called the Grand Admiral of the Fleet.

Alas the title of Field Marshal was taken by our departed left leaning friend.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Alas the title of Field Marshal was taken by our departed left leaning friend.
Before you give anyone heart attack here, he is Al-Vida only from the forum :)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Neela wrote:Listening to BlueSkiespodcast on Sub hunting with Kamovs , I heard this sentence:
- Sub hunting is very challenging
- Before we start scanning an area, we get "intelligence" beforehand and then the search begins ( P81s , MADs, etc come in at this stage)

Nothing further was elaborated on "intelligence" and was left at that point keeping secrecy in mind. Now, if the assets to search/scan have to start scanning vast swathes it obviously means that the intelligence is patchy or significant time has elapsed.

Can someone elaborate on the intelligence on what are the typical sources?
In the world of tracking surface and sub-surface vessels, there is a clear and undisputed leader - the United States of America.

So tracking of naval vessels come largely from this singular source. This is especially true today, with the signed foundational agreements between the US and India. Adversarial nations like China, Russia, etc have their naval assets tracked 24-7 by the US Navy. Look up wiki chacha and see how many SSNs (Los Angeles and Virginia Class) the US Navy has in her kitty. It is a very large and significant fleet and they are not used for guarding America's Atlantic and Pacific coastlines. Their submarine fleet - by a wide margin - is the world's most advanced fleet. They listen and record everything :) And they have the unique advantage of not being tracked in return. The level of R&D and related funding is unprecedented in the US Navy's sub fleet. They never rest on their superiority and they are constantly improving upon perfection.

The advantage is that the Chinese cannot even fart, without the US Navy knowing. PLAN carrier battle groups are in for a very rude awakening if they think they enjoy the advantage of the wide open sea. Info on Chinese naval movements is regularly shared with the Indian Navy, which subsequently sends in her assets i.e. P-8I and other platforms if required. Naval assets are tracked by the US using a number of sources - submarines, satellites, surface vessels, aircraft, UAVs, etc. The assets at the US Navy's disposal will make anyone blush.

Tapes (acoustic signatures) are made of every major naval vessel - friendly or adversarial. These tapes are worth their weight in gold as each vessel - even in a class - has a unique signature. Just like your fingerprint. These tapes are uploaded into a library which is disseminated across the US Navy's sub fleet and probably even their surface fleet. So when a US submarine comes across a naval vessel, during her silent patrol, they match the sound of that vessel against the acoustic signatures they have stored in their library. It advises the captain and his crew of the type of adversary they are dealing with. And in virtually every situation, the adversary has no clue that a US Navy submarine is silently tracking them.

The PLAN is equally concerned about the Japanese Navy's Soryu and Taigei Classes of submarines - arguably the most modern and lethal non-SSN boats in the world today. As per the PLAN's own admission, the Japanese Navy have the ability to conduct significant and irrevocable damage to the PLAN's surface and sub-surface fleet, just with these submarines alone. Sub hunting is challenging, but tracking a US Navy submarine is quite frankly next to impossible. If they do not want to be found, you can be rest assured, they will not be found. So while intelligence is shared by the US Navy, they do keep a few aces up their sleeve.

Funny, but true story ---> One US Submarine commander sent his Admiral a close up photograph (from his submarine's scope) of the Admiral's flagship, in a naval exercise. The Admiral was onboard his flagship (an aircraft carrier) when the photograph was taken. The sub commander attached a note to that photograph which stated, that there are two kinds of vessels - submarines and targets. He did it primarily because the Admiral was being extremely parochial (the sub commander's words, not mine) about the superiority of aircraft carriers and the sub commander had enough of the Admiral's lecture.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Kakarat wrote:...
Confirms what we saw earlier no VL-Shtil or Fregat radar upgrade (till has Half plate radar instead of the MAE-4k (newest version of half plate) or M2EM found in talwar).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by bala »

Rakesh wrote:They listen and record everything. when a US submarine comes across a naval vessel, they match the sound of that vessel against the acoustic signatures they have stored in their library. It advises the captain and his crew of the type of adversary they are dealing with.
Admiral, what you describe is an application of comprehensive data gathering, data mining, data matching/analysis using AI/Machine Learning and real-time updates correlating with Big Data processing. None of these are beyond the scope of Indian Navy but needs focused funding. Only problem for the Indian context is that they don't have global sensors in every nook and cranny which US has. Today's warfare is really about distributed data collection, smart analysis from the mountains of data and dissemination of results to those who need it in a timely manner, i.e. synthesis with real-time situational data. Everyone (Airforce, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard) is in the game of such a data matrix mesh. Question is how well they do it and how close they come to reality. The US is the leader but India has the talent pool to mimic this system.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

bala wrote:Admiral, what you describe is an application of comprehensive data gathering, data mining, data matching/analysis using AI/Machine Learning and real-time updates correlating with Big Data processing. None of these are beyond the scope of Indian Navy but needs focused funding. Only problem for the Indian context is that they don't have global sensors in every nook and cranny which US has. Today's warfare is really about distributed data collection, smart analysis from the mountains of data and dissemination of results to those who need it in a timely manner, i.e. synthesis with real-time situational data. Everyone (Airforce, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard) is in the game of such a data matrix mesh. Question is how well they do it and how close they come to reality. The US is the leader but India has the talent pool to mimic this system.
Sirjee, you hit the nail on the head - FOCUSED FUNDING.

That does NOT exist in India - not with the services, not with the bureaucracy and not with our politicians.

* The bureaucracy is only focused on preserving their relevance and never misses an opportunity to remind the services of their *TRUE* place.
* The services are only focused on themselves and zealously guard their turf, because of this attitude of the bureaucracy.
* The politicians are only focused on increasing their vote share and could care less about anything else.

Karma, Fate, Predestination or whatever else we want to call it, India has had some rotten luck when it comes to National Defence. The few visionaries (General KS Thimayya, General Bipin Rawat) that India gets, go away in a flash. They came and went, before any meaningful change could take hold. Vision, Goal, National Mission, Focused Funding, etc are all foreign & alien concepts in India. They never take root in our polity.

Every decision is ad-hoc and every solution is band-aid. Buy one phoren platform and rather than capitalize on that platform, create another fantabulous RFI/RFP for yet another phoren platform which does the exact same thing as the previous phoren platform. Local platforms are a whole other story and an even worse mess. One can either cry or laugh at this pathetic state of affairs.

We have however mastered the art of formulating acronyms in the English language. The latest is FUFA :)

Go here to learn more on FUFA ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6866&start=4880#p2545877
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

bala wrote:
Rakesh wrote:They listen and record everything. when a US submarine comes across a naval vessel, they match the sound of that vessel against the acoustic signatures they have stored in their library. It advises the captain and his crew of the type of adversary they are dealing with.
Admiral, what you describe is an application of comprehensive data gathering, data mining, data matching/analysis using AI/Machine Learning and real-time updates correlating with Big Data processing. None of these are beyond the scope of Indian Navy but needs focused funding. Only problem for the Indian context is that they don't have global sensors in every nook and cranny which US has. Today's warfare is really about distributed data collection, smart analysis from the mountains of data and dissemination of results to those who need it in a timely manner, i.e. synthesis with real-time situational data. Everyone (Airforce, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard) is in the game of such a data matrix mesh. Question is how well they do it and how close they come to reality. The US is the leader but India has the talent pool to mimic this system.
The comprehensive data gathering is the crux. Even if we had all the money how long would it take us to bridge the gap from a hardware perspective?
I am not an expert but does this hardware that is required for the data gathering going into the exotic world of materials science etc where we are laggards?
Just asking as this is not my area of arm chair expertise..
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

Rakesh wrote:INS Delhi is very special to me. I was onboard the vessel 22 years ago - 14 Aug 2000. Those Kh-35 Uran launchers were massive in person. I can only imagine how big those BrahMos launchers will be. On that same day, I visited the (now retired) Viraat and a Kilo Class boat. A memorable day.
Kilo class boat was INS Sindhukesari
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

ks_sachin wrote:
bala wrote:
Admiral, what you describe is an application of comprehensive data gathering, data mining, data matching/analysis using AI/Machine Learning and real-time updates correlating with Big Data processing. None of these are beyond the scope of Indian Navy but needs focused funding. Only problem for the Indian context is that they don't have global sensors in every nook and cranny which US has. Today's warfare is really about distributed data collection, smart analysis from the mountains of data and dissemination of results to those who need it in a timely manner, i.e. synthesis with real-time situational data. Everyone (Airforce, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard) is in the game of such a data matrix mesh. Question is how well they do it and how close they come to reality. The US is the leader but India has the talent pool to mimic this system.
The comprehensive data gathering is the crux. Even if we had all the money how long would it take us to bridge the gap from a hardware perspective?
I am not an expert but does this hardware that is required for the data gathering going into the exotic world of materials science etc where we are laggards?
Just asking as this is not my area of arm chair expertise..
Exploiting it is the second or third step in the process (and there modern data science, advanced computing and ML can and does come into the picture) . The first and core step is having persistent high fidelity sensors in close proximity to adversary systems and being able to collect the right type of data. We don't need to look much beyond the current Russ-Ukr conflict and see how much NATO and US ISR is constantly present (there is literally an ISR orbit set up over the black sea). For reference, this thread on twitter captures and lays out ISR (just the known and acknowledged systems/flights) activity over the region during one 24 hour period in February.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Kakarat wrote: https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... i14SPONdOA (Video)
Successful maiden #BrahMos firing by #INSDelhi from an upgraded modular launcher once again demonstrated long range strike capability of BrahMos alongwith validation of integrated Network Centric Operations from frontline platforms (1/2)
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... i14SPONdOA
This firing is yet another shot in the arm for #AatmaNirbharBharat (2/2)
IR posted a good insight into the BrahMos launch from INS Delhi. A must read.

Also click on the tweet link below to see the video of the BrahMos missile launch from INS Delhi.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... _KImPL6mUw ---> I love it.

I have asked for a long-time why are our land-based Brahmos are;

1. launched with a nose cap and
2. undergo such a complex post-launch maneuver demanded only for lo-lo-lo flight paths.

This is simple, cost-effective and range enhancing.

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1516 ... _KImPL6mUw ---> 360 degree advantage, in this case, entire ship have to move to point to target. Sometimes this time means life or death in war.

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1516 ... _KImPL6mUw ---> You know more about missiles, but it's like Akash missile in fixed position launch, compare to MRSAM vertical launch.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... _KImPL6mUw ---> I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I am not speaking about vertical vs inclined launch at all!

https://twitter.com/MichaelFaradey7/sta ... _KImPL6mUw ---> About the 90 degree turn right? Are you saying that a more parabolic path could increase range?

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... _KImPL6mUw ---> Yes and keep it simple.

======================================================================

And by the way, this is the launcher (only internal skeleton) that is fitted on INS Delhi. The actual launcher should have an external cover/casing. The 16 Kh-35 Urans have been switched out for - I believe - a pair of quad BrahMos launchers. So a total of 8 BrahMos missiles. But I could be wrong. Someone will have to confirm.

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... PHYe-Y8NOg ---> Successful maiden BrahMos firing by INS Delhi from an upgraded modular launcher.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

10 years late and a sad day for the country. The submarine line will now sit idle.

India Launches Its Sixth And Final Scorpene Submarine
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... submarine/
20 April 2022

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... PHYe-Y8NOg ----> INS Vagsheer, the 6th Scorpene Submarine of Project-75, launched in Mumbai.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by bala »

When we are poised to get to a 10T economy soon, the value of long term planning assumes significance even more. Strategic thinking, planning for the long term, managing resources optimally, a bigger vision/goals, anticipating needs/responsibility viz-a-viz the competing nations of the world are paramount for a nation the size of India. When our babus/politicians/leaders get off their collective backsides and roll up their sleeves then we in India will see tangible progress in all areas. Tis a pity to see a productive sub manufacturing line go idle, can we double the number of subs in the short term and continue production for the next few years.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

if you want to draw a parallel, US was a 3T economy in 1981 and surely it had many programs on US navy subs, and aircrafts.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Imphal seen in background of Vagsheer launch seems to be on schedule for commissioning next year.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 4OA034hmTA ---->

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

bala wrote:When we are poised to get to a 10T economy soon, the value of long term planning assumes significance even more. Strategic thinking, planning for the long term, managing resources optimally, a bigger vision/goals, anticipating needs/responsibility viz-a-viz the competing nations of the world are paramount for a nation the size of India. When our babus/politicians/leaders get off their collective backsides and roll up their sleeves then we in India will see tangible progress in all areas. Tis a pity to see a productive sub manufacturing line go idle, can we double the number of subs in the short term and continue production for the next few years.
Bala-ji, I keep seeing that bolded line on BRF, on twitter, in news articles and in interviews. By 20XX...India will be a 5T economy, by 20XX...India will be a 8T economy, by 20XX...India will be a 10T economy, etc. The problem is while our economy is growing, India is not making the requisite investments in National Defence. That is an afterthought in India. Pakistan and China are our enemies, so we must buy platform X, Y and Z for deterrence. And we are not even doing the bare minimum for deterrence, we are hitting well below that mark.

We are playing Russian Roulette with National Security. Some weird and inexplainable thought is rooted in our decision making. The services only seem to want to buy imported toys and could care less about proven local platforms. They will wait for eternity for those imported toys to arrive, while continuing to ignore the available local platform. The services have mastered the art of writing RFIs that no phoren OEM in the world can fulfill. But yet it is pursued with dogged determination for eons. The same services then ask for the impossible - which even the Almighty will not be able to fulfill - from local OEMs.

India opened her economy to liberalization in the 1990s. India today is far richer than she was 30+ years ago. But yet that has not translated into anything tangible in Indian Defence. We are still following the same ad hoc practices and adopting the same band-aid solutions. 30 years from today, India will be even more wealthier than she is now, but I doubt anything will change in our thinking when it comes to National Defence.

* What has Naval HQ or MoD really done to move the file for a modern torpedo for the Kalvari Class boats?
* With India's long coastline, we have a pathetic six modern SSKs and 1 upcoming aircraft carrier (Vikrant).
* What is the progress on the acquisition of minesweepers? For a blue water Navy, India has none right now.
* What did Naval HQ really learn from the HDW 209 episode, when the skilled workforce went idle? We are back at square one!

But our Admirals at Naval HQ got time to write RFIs for Project 75I, a 65,000 ton super carrier with EMALS and nuclear power, multi-role carrier borne fighters and other similar gold dust sprinkled fables. The Air Force and Army are no better either.

The Navy is becoming more of a Friendship of the Seas service, than a warfighting one. Retire all our surface & sub-surface combatants and invest in cruise ships which feature laughter clubs onboard. Switch out the naval whites for a multi-colored psychedelic uniform with a peace symbol and perform aerobatics for the aam junta, while surfing on the back of killer whales. Get rid of the Indian Navy's Shano Varuna motto and adopt Make Love, Not War instead. That would be apt.

==========================================================

Our Admirals, Air Marshals and Generals need a much overdue dose of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw.

A battalion employed in the Mizo Hills, paying perhaps a little more attention to the welfare of its troops and, in the process, a little less than desirable to the operational side received a rude reminder that 'someone up there' was watching, very keenly, every move that was made. A parcel of bangles was delivered to the commanding officer with the compliments of the army commander with a cryptic note: 'If you are avoiding contact with the hostile give these to your men to wear.” Needless to say, the next few weeks saw a flurry of activity by this battalion resulting in another, more soothing message: 'send the bangles back.'
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

IAF, Navy tie up with DRDO to acquire CHAFF to shield warships, fighter aircraft.

The Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy have tied up with the Defence Research Development Organisation to get the CHAFF technology, which protects the warship from an anti-ship missile during hostilities. India is now the second country after the United States to develop this ability, a major Aatmanirbhar push in the field of defence.

The developed assumes significance as the Indian navy is currently studying the sinking of Russian missile cruiser Moskva and focusing on how to protect our warships from anti-ship ballistic missiles like the Chinese DF-21.

What is CHAFF?
In simple words, CHAFF is a critical defence technology used to protect fighter aircrafts or naval ships from enemy radar-guided missile during war. The significance of this technology lies in the fact that very less quantity of CHAFF material deployed in the air acts as a decoy to deflect enemy's missiles to ensure safety of the fighter aircraft or naval ships.

The DRDO has developed this advanced CHAFF technology to defend naval Ships and fighter aircrafts against modern day broadband (including high frequency) radar threat.

Developed by the DRDO, the technology includes all three variants of CHAFF rockets namely Short Range Chaff Rocket (SRCR), Medium Range Chaff Rocket (MRCR) and Long Range Chaff Rocket (LRCR), and have been inducted in the Indian Navy after successful user trials.

The DRDO has also developed advanced CHAFF cartridge-118/I for the Indian Air Force having major advantages over the chaff available worldwide in terms of its better efficacy against higher frequency radar threat in modern warfare scenario.

After a successfully extensive user trials, the IAF assessed the performance of indigenous chaff cartridge-118/I satisfactory and started the process of induction into Indian Air Force.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SinghS »

Second country after USA in CHAFF technology...what was the reporter smoking? Now these guys are fast approaching Global Times standard.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

SinghS wrote:Second country after USA in CHAFF technology...what was the reporter smoking? Now these guys are fast approaching Global Times standard.
I don't know much about this CHAFF technology, but this country measuring that our reporters do is hilarious.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:10 years late and a sad day for the country. The submarine line will now sit idle.

India Launches Its Sixth And Final Scorpene Submarine
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... submarine/
20 April 2022
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/151 ... osfrfffW2A ---> South Korea planned for 27 conventional submarines in 35 years of timeline starting in 1994. They are progressing well and have an export order of six. Meanwhile in 34 years, Indian Navy has procured 20 conventional and currently there is no immediate manufacturing going on.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the ROKN has 19 active submarines and three more under construction. South Korea was one of the contenders in the Project 75I competition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_ ... #Equipment
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by mody »

Some reports indicate that the Navy is not interested in procuring additional 3 Scorpene class subs, either with or without the DRDO AIP plug-in and wants to concentrate on the P75I program only.
What a shame. The P75I currently is as good as dead with Russia already having withdrawn and HDW too not interesting is moving forward. France doesn't have a sea deployed AIP system that the P75I RFI mandates, neither to the Spanish. That leaves only South Korea, who can also offer the Lithium ion batteries in place of Lead-Acid ones or France with a promise of some new fantastic sub, which would be co-developed and would cost both arms and both legs.

Additional three scorpenes with possibly Korean or Japanese Lithium ion batteries should have been the way to go, with 1 more sub to be produced with the DRDO AIP plug. If the DRDO AIP system functions as desired, then the first lot of 6 Scorpenes can be upgraded with the AIP module and Li-Ion batteries. Also perhaps replace/add the Brahmos-NG missiles to the sub. The missile is supposed to be small enough to be accommodated in a 533mm tube. The total length and weight etc. would have to be checked. This would mean a total of 10 Scorpene class subs would be produced and would give us enough know-how to build new diesel electric subs on our own.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The current RM Shri RNS has been a good one. But even he is hard pressed to bring some sense to the services and the MOD.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:The current RM Shri RNS has been a good one. But even he is hard pressed to bring some sense to the services and the MOD.
horse drives the cart. Imagine parrikar here. RNS is good but not good enough.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

mody wrote:Some reports indicate that the Navy is not interested in procuring additional 3 Scorpene class subs, either with or without the DRDO AIP plug-in and wants to concentrate on the P75I program only.
What a shame. The P75I currently is as good as dead with Russia already having withdrawn and HDW too not interesting is moving forward. France doesn't have a sea deployed AIP system that the P75I RFI mandates, neither to the Spanish. That leaves only South Korea, who can also offer the Lithium ion batteries in place of Lead-Acid ones or France with a promise of some new fantastic sub, which would be co-developed and would cost both arms and both legs.

Additional three scorpenes with possibly Korean or Japanese Lithium ion batteries should have been the way to go, with 1 more sub to be produced with the DRDO AIP plug. If the DRDO AIP system functions as desired, then the first lot of 6 Scorpenes can be upgraded with the AIP module and Li-Ion batteries. Also perhaps replace/add the Brahmos-NG missiles to the sub. The missile is supposed to be small enough to be accommodated in a 533mm tube. The total length and weight etc. would have to be checked. This would mean a total of 10 Scorpene class subs would be produced and would give us enough know-how to build new diesel electric subs on our own.
I suppose Indian submarine designers cannot upgrade/improve upon the Scorpene design ???
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Karan M »

It's been heavily compromised by the Sara leak irrespective of what we hear in public.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

Karan M wrote:It's been heavily compromised by the Sara leak irrespective of what we hear in public.
This is interesting in the fact the HDWs were also compromised by leaks , remember the South Africa event ?.. That put a full stop to the HDW line !

http://www.millenniumpost.in/german-hdw ... how-159536

In the mid-1980s, under Rajiv Gandhi’s Prime Ministership, the German technology to build HDW submarines, also in the Mazagon Docks, which India purchased at huge cost those days, was reported as “already sold and transferred” with other sensitive documents to South Africa. The HDW submarine deal caused a huge embarrassment to Rajiv Gandhi and his government not for the know-how leak alone, but also for a kickback allegedly received by those involved in the purchase deal, including the Prime Minister. Tragically, the government said it was unaware of both the developments before they were exposed by the overseas media.

Forum ites should understand it was not all about intentions , but conspiracies behind the scene to severely limit Indian submarine capabilities have been going on for decades and EVEN NOW.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

fanne wrote:if you want to draw a parallel, US was a 3T economy in 1981 and surely it had many programs on US navy subs, and aircrafts.
when you print the worlds reserve currency, you are limited only by your printing press :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

3 T in the 80s would be worth more than 10T in todays money. We’re talking about nearly 30% of worlds GDP as it existed then (for just 5% of the words population at the time) so not really a great comparison in terms of resources available and relative spending power (it went a lot farther then).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

our PPP is 12T today. From that yardstick, we can do a lot better in the defense sector.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vidur »

Karan M wrote:It's been heavily compromised by the Sara leak irrespective of what we hear in public.
Very astute observation
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Karan M wrote:It's been heavily compromised by the Sara leak irrespective of what we hear in public.
If that's the real reason. Then there is really no assurance that the next Indian made foreign submarines will not going to be effected by such issues.

The only way to be able to make sure that we are not effected by this will be to use the experience gained with the 209, Kalvari and Arihant to design our own submarines.

Because if data leakage is a concern. Then Kilo class is operated by Iran and Algeria. If we ignore the PRC of operated Kilos.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by k prasad »

Question for the guroos here...

Given that we've already built or are building 4 Arihant-class subs, and will be building 3 more SSBNs (S-5) and 6 SSNs (Project 75-Alpha), what technologies and expertise do we need to gain to build our own attack submarines?

I'd assume that the conventional engines is one, AIP needs to be tested and refined. I'd imagine a number of systems need to be miniaturized. What else would we need?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

brar_w wrote:3 T in the 80s would be worth more than 10T in todays money. We’re talking about nearly 30% of worlds GDP as it existed then (for just 5% of the words population at the time) so not really a great comparison in terms of resources available and relative spending power (it went a lot farther then).
Good points. Another factor is the depreciation of the Rupee vis a vis the Dollar.

That bites hard when you are an arms importer
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Karan M wrote:It's been heavily compromised by the Sara leak irrespective of what we hear in public.
I don’t think that’s truly the reason. More than likely I believe navy requirement has changed. They now want a larger SSK platform which can carry larger payload and have a better range via AIP
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

Li-ion batteries in theory can keep the sub underwater as much as lead-acid + AIP can keep. It also has the advantage of faster speed if needed to evade (AIP powered subs when running on AIP have very low speed) and fast charging + higher charge (meaning once charged, it can again go for 1-2 weeks without needing to come out) + More of it can be installed in place of Lead-Acid, it is lighter and compact. If the potential danger has been overcome (Fire hazard and H2 buildup),(Japan and SK have apparently overcome that), just putting Li-ion battery is a great force multiplier. You additionally put AIP (needs cutting and installing), it will make it further better (or why not install more Li-ion battery instead? - Cost?).
I hope there is dedicated Li-ion effort from DRDO. Copy paste Tesla tech for battery and capacitor.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by bala »

The Li-ion battery is prone to fire since a small diferential in current between battery cells can trigger a fire. The trick is to get the average current within a cell-pack very close to the Spec., with deltas that are within tolerance. Tesla's IP is in managing that Spec. Also temperature plays a crucial role. Recently Mercedes Benz has proven gains (1000 Km on single charge, 8.7 kWh/100 km ) by having less number of banks of battery pack vs the Tesla way of battery pack. Tesla is also switching to bigger individual Li-ion battery. These technologies are not copy/paste. India's electric scooters are facing fire issues.

An AIP with Li-ion design makes sense, provided the fire issues are addressed. There are other technologies mostly in R&D that do not use Li-ion for battery cell.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

yup, it needs r&d but the upside is huugge. DRDO is somewhat there already, other friendly nations (Japan and SK - who may (operative may) give us the tech or the product for a price) already has this tech, we can get it through that route. This when fitted to existing Kilos, 204s and Scorpene, can at least increase their effectiveness by 2-3 times (all else being equal, we can always port the sensors from Scorpene to Kilo and 204, already being done to first Kilo). No cutting for AIP, AIP proving etc. needed. You are changing Lead-Acid battery with Li-Ion which takes less volume, has less weight, has tremendous energy density, can output high energy for a quicker dash (compared to AIP), Can charge faster (less time on surface)....possibility is endless. It is a comparison between the landline phone of yesterday and the smartphone of today - no comparison, it scores high on all parameters.
This will buy us more time till we figure about our 75i. If needed it can be fully Indian- ToT (Hull + sensors, apparently we have some ToT here) of Scorpene/204 + DRDO AIP + Li-ion battery, + plug for SLBM/SLCM (from Arihant). I believe we have most of the pieces. If we figure out jet propulsion then sure else conventional blade will do. We also did (in press at least) deal for maritime engines with UK. We can get our own Bhanumati ka kunba, the one that works.
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