Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The UK QE class was designed for EMALS. But we're not equipped due to cost reasons concerns.

The issue is available electrical power. Which can be produced either with steam turbines or gas turbines.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Basically they are saying that a steam powered ship cannot run EMALS. Conveniently ignoring that the Gerald R Ford is also a steam powered ship.
The Gerald Ford Class are nuclear powered vessels.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

Rakesh wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Basically they are saying that a steam powered ship cannot run EMALS. Conveniently ignoring that the Gerald R Ford is also a steam powered ship.
The Gerald Ford Class are nuclear powered vessels.
Per se all nuclear powered vessels can be said to be steam powered. The nuclear reactor generates steam to drive the steam turbines. The age of steam generation by oil fired boilers are almost gone. Non nuclear ships have gas turbine / gas engine / diesel engine as the prime mover.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Not denying that Kersi. But cannot ignore the elephant in the room - the A1B reactor that generates the power.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

Rakesh wrote:Not denying that Kersi. But cannot ignore the elephant in the room - the A1B reactor that generates the power.
Absolutely True. For oil fired boilers, steam could be a constraint. may not be so for nuclear power. Obviously both have to be deisgned and made as per average and peak requirements
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by jaysimha »

Director General Naval Design (Surface Ship Group) Rear Admiral GK Harish laid the keel for the seventh ship (Y- 12654) of the prestigious P17A of #IndianNavy at M/s Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd., Mumbai, today.
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https://www.linkedin.com/posts/defencem ... esktop_web
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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... nASAE-laKg ---> Indian Navy Sindhughosh Submarines are upgrading it's ECIDS system. For safer navigation in sea & harbours.

What is Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS)?
https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-na ... tem-ecdis/
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Some good news on DRDO's AIP program...

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 02VhKjedIw ---> Indian Navy's Scorpene class submarine, INS Kalvari to be fitted with DRDO AIP in 2025.

Indian subs will be fitted with AIP made in India: DRDO Chief
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... f/2578408/
30 June 2022

Based on the tweet and article above, some inferences can be made;
(I googled the tweet and found the article. Simple Onlee :mrgreen: )

1) Installing a DRDO designed & developed AIP on-board the most modern SSK in the Indian Navy, suggests that the AIP design is mature for integration. Testing on board an operational submarine is a whole other ball game and will take time. But this plan is in itself a huge step forward.

2) INS Kalvari was commissioned on 14 December 2017. To go in for a refit in 2025, is a huge improvement over the Kilo and HDW 209 boats. They went in for their refits much later. Quicker and successive refits (over the life of the submarine) will keep the platform up-to-date and lethal.

3) If the marriage of the AIP and INS Kalvari is successful, this will have an impact on the Project 75I program. If the requirement of an operational AIP is dropped from the P-75I contest, many (if not all) of the contestants who walked out...will then qualify again. I am specifically looking at Naval Group of France, as building additional (albeit modified) Scorpenes is the best path forward.

4) A much needed next step (and still not taken AFAIK) is the purchase of a new generation torpedo. Either the F-21 from Naval Group of France or the Black Shark from WASS of Italy (the original choice for the IN's Scorpene boat) or the DM2A4 from Atlas Elektronik of Germany (currently used by the Pakistan Navy's Agosta 90B submarines). I believe DRDO is working on a submarine capable variant of the Varunastra, but have not heard much on that.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

A tweet from 2021 about DRDO's AIP. Notice how the dates below have now been pushed forward in the article above.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 02VhKjedIw ---> User evaluation trials of the air-independent propulsion (AIP) should be completed by the end of 2021 or early 2022. The First Kalvari class submarine comes in for a refit in 2023. DRDO will have about a year to start manufacturing & deliver at least 1 AIP hull plug to MDL.

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https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 02VhKjedIw ---> NMRL had developed & deployed CO2 scrubbers for Indian SSBNs. The development of AIPs for SSKs will increase their underwater endurance, thus creating a need for CO2 scrubbers on SSKs too. The Indian Navy's Kalvari class SSks will likely be the 1st to receive the AIP & scrubber.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... fGI1wFjBmw ---> Report: UK is set to pitch the Rolls Royce MT-30 marine gas turbine engines for Indian Navy warships as an alternative to the Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproekt M7N engines.

UK offers marine engines for Indian warships to fill the Ukrainian Vacuum
https://www.businessworld.in/article/UK ... 22-434741/
30 June 2022
ramana
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ramana »

Great news on both fronts: AIP and Zorya replacement
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Rakesh wrote:Some good news on DRDO's AIP program...
1) Installing a DRDO designed & developed AIP on-board the most modern SSK in the Indian Navy, suggests that the AIP design is mature for integration. Testing on board an operational submarine is a whole other ball game and will take time. But this plan is in itself a huge step forward.
Thrilling news.

In March last year, DRDO successfully operated the AIP in endurance mode and max power mode on shore at Vishakapatnam.
I believe DRDO is working on a submarine capable variant of the Varunastra, but have not heard much on that.
In June 2019, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) won another order for 70 Varunastra worth Rs. 1200 Crores. These will equip both ships and submarines like Scorpene. The first Varunastra shipment was made by BDL on November 21, 2020.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... fGI1wFjBmw ---> Report: UK is set to pitch the Rolls Royce MT-30 marine gas turbine engines for Indian Navy warships as an alternative to the Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproekt M7N engines.

UK offers marine engines for Indian warships to fill the Ukrainian Vacuum
https://www.businessworld.in/article/UK ... 22-434741/
30 June 2022
MT 30 is not a replacement for Zorya, the LM2500 is. At least in terms of performance.

The MT30 is good for ship born IEP for podded propulsion, EMALS, and rail guns.

This is a much bigger news, and I am seeing it in conjunction with the indigenous pilot EMALS development by BHEL. The future aircraft carrier is taking shape behind the scenes. I expect it's design to reach sufficient maturity that it can be put in production by 24 or 25. The EMALS will be needed by 2028. By which time it should be perfected.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

^ Most likely they will be used for P-15B follow on which will utilize electric motors and CODLOG configuration similar to Type 26 FFG (which also uses MT 30).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by jaysimha »

Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff, dedicated the modernised Material Organisation (MO), Goa to Indian Naval Aviation on 28 March 2022.
https://ultradimensions.com/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/seaandcoast1/status ... LKEfLnbZ8A ---> On July 4, Lieutenant General Mohamed Abbas Helmy of the Egyptian Air Force visited Admiral R Hari Kumar, Chief of the Naval Staff of the Indian Navy. The two emphasized the expanding defence cooperation between their nations and indicated a desire to look into new possibilities.

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

SSridhar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I believe DRDO is working on a submarine capable variant of the Varunastra, but have not heard much on that.
In June 2019, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) won another order for 70 Varunastra worth Rs. 1200 Crores. These will equip both ships and submarines like Scorpene. The first Varunastra shipment was made by BDL on November 21, 2020.
Fantastic news SSridhar-ji. The Kalvari Class boats need to get rid of their old Russian torpedoes ASAP.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Rakesh wrote:
SSridhar wrote: In June 2019, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) won another order for 70 Varunastra worth Rs. 1200 Crores. These will equip both ships and submarines like Scorpene. The first Varunastra shipment was made by BDL on November 21, 2020.
Fantastic news SSridhar-ji. The Kalvari Class boats need to get rid of their old Russian torpedoes ASAP.
I don't think Russian torpedoes will fit in Kalvari class as Russian 533mm Torpedoes are 24 ft long vs 21ft for Western 533mm Torpedoes, Varunastra which went into production was the Russian size, not sure if there is Varunastra variant built to Western specs
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Aditya_V wrote:I don't think Russian torpedoes will fit in Kalvari class as Russian 533mm Torpedoes are 24 ft long vs 21ft for Western 533mm Torpedoes, Varunastra which went into production was the Russian size, not sure if there is Varunastra variant built to Western specs
Oops :) My bad! They are using old German torpedoes. Long overdue for replacement.

Exclusive: Handicapped by red tape, Indian Navy to fit old weapons on brand new submarine
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2016-08-23
23 Aug 2016
Indian Navy will soon induct Kalvari, a brand new French-designed Scorpene submarine, having old German SUT torpedoes.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> No impact of the Russia-Ukraine war on the two Talwar Class stealth warships being constructed in the Russian shipyards for the Indian Navy: Vice Admiral SN Ghormade.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Ukraine War will not impact the two under-construction warships of the Indian Navy in Russia. Both will be delivered as per schedule.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Tushil and Tamala may be fine (as long as the delivered turbines don't have any issues and don't need Zorya to fix anything) but plans to build two more by Goa SY will likely be scrapped.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

John wrote:Tushil and Tamala may be fine (as long as the delivered turbines don't have any issues and don't need Zorya to fix anything) but plans to build two more by Goa SY will likely be scrapped.
Didn't the Russians developed own design GT for ship's of this class and were fitting those turbines to the ships.

IIRC, this was back in 2018-19 time frame.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:
John wrote:Tushil and Tamala may be fine (as long as the delivered turbines don't have any issues and don't need Zorya to fix anything) but plans to build two more by Goa SY will likely be scrapped.
Didn't the Russians developed own design GT for ship's of this class and were fitting those turbines to the ships.

IIRC, this was back in 2018-19 time frame.
Not for Grigorivich class one of reasons they abandoned their construction.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

They need to switch from Talwar Class to better variants of the P-17A Class. So P-17B, P-17C and so on.

Building more (and improved variants) of the P-17A Class is the better path forward.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:They need to switch from Talwar Class to better variants of the P-17A Class. So P-17B, P-17C and so on.

Building more (and improved variants) of the P-17A Class is the better path forward.
The 2+2 Grigorivich deal was unneeded when Goa SY could have even built the P-17 which are superior to Talwar and not to mention all the additional risk of modifying Talwar class to be built in India. Hopefully we can write off 2 to be built by Goa without much losses and NGC can help make up for the shortfall.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

Can any knowledgeable members reassure my troubled mind that IN isn’t heading to another period of stagnation post 2025-27. By that time all 15Bs, 17As, 11356s and the IAC-1 will be handed over, to keep major deliveries post them orders would have to be made last year, this year and the next (considering the 5-7 year lead times) but no such orders are made


All ‘next gen’ vessels are firmly for post 2030-35++ it seems and nowhere close to even design finalisation let alone contracts


NGD
NGF
NGC
IAC-1
NGMV
FSS
P75I
SSN

All whilst PLA(N) has undergone the largest recapitalisation of any naval force since WW2. Just as they will be stretching their legs into IOR IN will be overseeing all major shipyards idling their lines.


Seems like they’ve blown it already
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Most likely a follow up order of P-17a will fill that gap. I suspect follow up class to P-15b will be delayed to switch to MT30 or another gas turbine. Here is what I see

P-17B 7: 2029-34
P-15C/P-18 4: 2032-36
NGC 8: 2028-35
NGMV 6: by 2030?? ( Lack of any construction updates on them is troublesome)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I don't understand how the switch from one gas turbine to another represent a big delay.

The gas turbine is of finite size and is seperate from the reduction gear and the propeller shaft.

The only thing that is needed is the physical space for turbines instalation and the milling of the physical connector between the gas turbine and the reduction gear. These are at max 6 to 8 week job. For a competent design and engineering team.

Unless the Navy is making thousands of other changes to the basic design of the ship, but is retaining the project number.

Like the evolution of the P15 to P15A took 8000 changes in the design.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Will be more than simple switch to different gas turbine and will likely use CODLOG config with electric motors similar to RN Type 26. Don't think will make a jump to integrated electric propulsion given the challenges with that.

Probably will incorporate some design changes as well like a larger mast to carry a variant of LR-MFR radar. Bug it's all speculation at this point.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

John wrote:Will be more than simple switch to different gas turbine and will likely use CODLOG config with electric motors similar to RN Type 26. Don't think will make a jump to integrated electric propulsion given the challenges with that.

Probably will incorporate some design changes as well like a larger mast to carry a variant of LR-MFR radar. Bug it's all speculation at this point.
Changing from CODOG or CODAG to COGLOG would be a massive engineering job
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

John wrote:Will be more than simple switch to different gas turbine and will likely use CODLOG config with electric motors similar to RN Type 26. Don't think will make a jump to integrated electric propulsion given the challenges with that.

Probably will incorporate some design changes as well like a larger mast to carry a variant of LR-MFR radar. Bug it's all speculation at this point.
If the ship is going to be different in design from the existing P15 ship's. Then perhaps they need to be classified as a different project.

If the change is only for installation of LM2500 then they will not require massive design changes.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:
John wrote:Will be more than simple switch to different gas turbine and will likely use CODLOG config with electric motors similar to RN Type 26. Don't think will make a jump to integrated electric propulsion given the challenges with that.

Probably will incorporate some design changes as well like a larger mast to carry a variant of LR-MFR radar. Bug it's all speculation at this point.
If the ship is going to be different in design from the existing P15 ship's. Then perhaps they need to be classified as a different project.

If the change is only for installation of LM2500 then they will not require massive design changes.
Could end up being P-18 class but some are convinced P-18s are 12k ton cruisers so I don’t want to rain on their parade :D
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Personally, I do see a case for 8000 to 9000 tone destroyers having 64 to 80 VLS fitted with the new proposed MF RADAR that were shown in testing late last year.

Given the power and cooling requirements, the P15 in any of the iteration cannot host that radar. Unless only one panel on a rotating mast is to be installed.

This new ship can be called project 19, if the project 18 is going to be a 12k ton cruiser :mrgreen:

Because the kind of modification required to a P15 for those radars will essentially mean a complete redesign of the interior of the ship.

So IMO, the P15 line is done for all intents and purposes.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

KSingh wrote:Can any knowledgeable members reassure my troubled mind that...
correct, seems like a grand decade long plan for import lobby.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 8lOhAWRqVg ---> Indian Navy to purchase 10 shipborne UAVs for $16 million each. Will equip P-15A/B destroyers and carriers.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

YashG wrote:
KSingh wrote:Can any knowledgeable members reassure my troubled mind that...
correct, seems like a grand decade long plan for import lobby.
Not sure you can blame the import lobby as apart from P-75 they are all local stuff. All parties stand responsible like SYs, Navy and MOD dragging its feat on decision making.

Pratyush wrote:Personally, I do see a case for 8000 to 9000 tone destroyers having 64 to 80 VLS fitted with the new proposed MF RADAR that were shown in testing late last year.

Given the power and cooling requirements, the P15 in any of the iteration cannot host that radar. Unless only one panel on a rotating mast is to be installed.

This new ship can be called project 19, if the project 18 is going to be a 12k ton cruiser :mrgreen:

Because the kind of modification required to a P15 for those radars will essentially mean a complete redesign of the interior of the ship.

So IMO, the P15 line is done for all intents and purposes.
Yea I do feel there was plan for another P-15s as there seem to be no work started on next gen Destroyer. But it feels like Ukraine war changed all that.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh to launch P17A stealth frigate on July 15.

Strengthening the maritime capabilities of the Indian Navy, the second P17A stealth frigate built by warship maker Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) will be launched by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on July 15, a senior official said here on Saturday.

The state-of-the-art ship will be fitted with the latest gadgets and undergo extensive trials by GRSE, which was contracted to build three stealth frigates under Project 17A, before being handed over to the Indian Navy for commissioning into service.

"Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will launch the ship on July 15 at the GRSE Main Complex here on the bank of Hooghly river," the GRSE official told journalists.

The first P17A frigate built by GRSE was launched in December 2020 by Madhulika Rawat, the wife of then Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat.

P17A ships are guided-missile frigates, each of which is 149 metres long with a displacement of approximately 6,670 tonnes and a speed of 28 knots, the official said.

The Navy had placed orders for seven stealth frigates, four of which went to Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) and three to GRSE.

The warship is in the final stages of construction and is undergoing paint shop work.

The Rs 19,294-crore contract for construction of the three stealth frigates under Project 17A is the largest-ever order for GRSE, the official said.

The Kolkata-based defence PSU has an order book of around Rs 24,000 crore at present, he said.

Though GRSE has other production activities like a diesel engine plant in Ranchi and bailey bridge construction, nearly 95 per cent of its revenues are generated from shipbuilding, the official said.

The company at present is working on six projects, comprising the construction of 23 ships that include one passenger ship for Guyana and six patrol vessels for Bangladesh, he said.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... TJSFKXB9Pw ---> Indian Navy set to replace Israeli SATCOMs with Indian made SATCOMS for connect with dedicated Indian Navy satellite (GSAT-7).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

What are the names of the seven P-17s ?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

WARS ARE BAD. VERY BAD

Don't you think the thios sad unfortunate Ukraine Russia conflict, should be a blessing in disguise for IN ?
1. No more gas turbines from Ukraine. LM 2500 or western equivalent. Navalised Kaveri
2. Wean away form Russian ships and continue P-17 A/B/C/D/?????
3. Continue with P 15 A/B/C/?????
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