Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Manish_P
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... Qq9mhDD9EA ---> Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited has started the prototyping works for a Midget submarine, will be an advanced smaller sized submarine which can be used for applications such as Special Ops, Tourism, Research and Coastal monitoring.
:rotfl: Special Ops and Tourism :rotfl:

Our Daadi-wallah MARCOS boys would like nothing better than to stroll around and take in the sights around Gwadar, after blowing up the port ... :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy Expanding to Meet China Threat, Better Team With Allies
https://news.usni.org/2022/07/20/indian ... ith-allies
20 July 2022
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The Aircraft Carrier Connundrum and India's Dilemma
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gL2 ... sW0hk/edit

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd) - Former Chief of Naval Staff, Indian Navy
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... LcXoRYFbiA ---> Indian Navy to gradually replace all Kh-35 Uran Anti Ship missiles with indigenous Glidefire SSM.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... LcXoRYFbiA ---> Indian Navy to gradually replace all Kh-35 Uran Anti Ship missiles with indigenous Glidefire SSM.
But what exactly is Glide Fire?

I don't think we know anything about this particular missile.

Will it also be replacing the Harpoon and Exocet from the Scorpean and the P8?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy Seeks Development Of New ‘Glidefire’ Missile
https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/08/09 ... e-missile/

Indian Navy Wants To Develop A New “Glidefire” Missile
https://defenceaviationpost.com/indian- ... e-missile/

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... vp-zpQVioA —> Approx 100 Glidefire surface to surface to surface missiles ( SSM) are planned for the Indian Navy. It will use hybrid propulsion & controllable surfaces, launched from modular scalable & vertical launchers from ships.

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I am even more confused now.

This is supposed to be 180 km range missile. That is going to be mach 10 capable.

Where does it leave the Brahmos NG. That was supposed to be the deployed from the Tejas. Was that intended for air launched application only?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Mach 10? From where did you get that?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The image you have posted.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Read the two articles in my post. People extend their creativity in pictures.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Anujan »

From the article seems to be a subsonic cruise missile, but with supersonic end stage engagement.

Perhaps thats what the "hybrid propulsion" refers to. A turbofan engine for cruise stage, which is jettisoned and a rocket engine accelerates it in the end stage.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

If it has a subsonic cruise + supersonic end-game, then its more like Klub than Uran.

But, from a weight point of view, it looks like the IN wants a multi-platform missile from a UVLS. So, even say the NGMV can carry an anti-ship loadout. This would mean that the missile will likely be in the < 1 Tonne category. Klub weighs 1.4+ tonnes.

So, they might be looking for a missile that has the best of both worlds!

P.S. Not sure what happens when we develop NASM-MR and LR versions and make them UVLS compliant (not just air-launched). SSM and NASM-LR might have similar roles
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Does India Have Blue Water Navy Ambitions? | Vice Admiral Anup Singh

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Tanaji »

How does the missile communicate with the satellite at Mach 10 speeds given that the nose cone is probably suffering from a plasma state of the medium surrounding it that plays merry hell with all communications? Especially since course updates at these speeds require high accuracy as it is costly to correct?

Or am I reading too much into the diagram?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Tanaji wrote:Or am I reading too much into the diagram?
I would not place emphasis on the diagram. Much is still on the drawing board.

Read the two articles posted above the diagram.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Prem Kumar wrote:If it has a subsonic cruise + supersonic end-game, then its more like Klub than Uran.

But, from a weight point of view, it looks like the IN wants a multi-platform missile from a UVLS. So, even say the NGMV can carry an anti-ship loadout. This would mean that the missile will likely be in the < 1 Tonne category. Klub weighs 1.4+ tonnes.

So, they might be looking for a missile that has the best of both worlds!

P.S. Not sure what happens when we develop NASM-MR and LR versions and make them UVLS compliant (not just air-launched). SSM and NASM-LR might have similar roles
I expect a two stage missile but that doesn’t mean it’s super sonic Mach 3 as links seem to indicate. Lot of details that are still unknown but I believe it will be cheaper alternative to Brahmos which does indicate that Navy doesn’t intend to fit Brahmos-NG onto its surface vessels (likely only for Subs and ACs).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Anujan »

John wrote: I expect a two stage missile but that doesn’t mean it’s super sonic Mach 3 as links seem to indicate. Lot of details that are still unknown but I believe it will be cheaper alternative to Brahmos which does indicate that Navy doesn’t intend to fit Brahmos-NG onto its surface vessels (likely only for Subs and ACs).

Ministry of defence document https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... _Quest.pdf

Image

2000kts is ~Mach 3
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Anujan wrote:
John wrote: I expect a two stage missile but that doesn’t mean it’s super sonic Mach 3 as links seem to indicate. Lot of details that are still unknown but I believe it will be cheaper alternative to Brahmos which does indicate that Navy doesn’t intend to fit Brahmos-NG onto its surface vessels (likely only for Subs and ACs).
Ministry of defence document https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... _Quest.pdf
2000kts is ~Mach 3
Thanks missed that it quite doesn’t make sense to be cost effective and reach Mach 3. 3M-54E costs more than E1 because of supersonic terminal stage.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Army and Airforce should also induct this to target enemy airfields and depots, longer than MLRS but cost effective in numbers, so Brahmos or Nirbhay does not need to be used.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rakesh wrote:Does India Have Blue Water Navy Ambitions? | Vice Admiral Anup Singh
I thought India already has a blue water navy. We have at least one AC and possibly two in a year or two. Then at least two nuclear subs (right?). They don't count as Blue Water?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vayutuvan »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy#India
India
Main article: Indian Navy

Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya
The Indian Navy is unique among Asian navies due to its long experience in carrier power projection since 1961.[37][38] This, according to Dr. George J. Gilboy and political scientist Eric Heginbotham, gives the Indian Navy the "leading power projection capability in the region".[37] The Indian Navy is also the only Asian navy considered to be a rank three "multi-regional power projection navy" per Todd and Lindberg's classification system.[20][16] In his discussion paper for Consultancy Africa Intelligence, Greg Ryan asserts that in recent years, the Indian Navy has emerged as a "global power in the blue water sense".[39]

India initially outlined its intentions of developing blue-water capabilities under the 2007 Maritime Capabilities Perspective Plan,[40][41] with the navy's priority being the projection of "power in India's area of strategic interest", the Indian Ocean Region.[42][43] Since 2007 the navy has increased its presence in the Persian Gulf and the Horn of Africa to the Strait of Malacca, and routinely conducts anti-piracy operations and partnership building with other navies in the region.[44][45] It also conducts routine two to three month-long deployments in the South and East China seas as well as the western Mediterranean simultaneously.[46][47] The navy has a listening post in Madagascar.[48]

The navy operates one single carrier task force centered on INS Vikramaditya, after INS Viraat was decommissioned in March 2017; however, a new aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant is currently undergoing sea trials and is due to commission around 2022, restoring India's two-carrier capability. The Indian Navy also possesses an amphibious transport dock, INS Jalashwa, and currently operates INS Arihant, an indigenously developed nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, along with leasing one Akula-class nuclear-powered attack submarine.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Vayutuvan wrote:I thought India already has a blue water navy. We have at least one AC and possibly two in a year or two. Then at least two nuclear subs (right?). They don't count as Blue Water?
The Vikramaditya is back in dock after a refit. The fire onboard took her out of commission AGAIN. The Vikrant is due for commissioning on 01 Sept 2022. It will be ready only by mid 2023. The current fixed air wing fleet (MiG-29K) is not up to par. By the end of this year, either the Rafale M or the F-18SH will be chosen. Neither platform will live up to her full potential, because of the ski jump.

We have six modern SSKs (not all have been commissioned). Project 75I (six build SSK program) is listing aimlessly and as a result Project 76 (six build SSK program) cannot take off. Project 75 Alpha (six build SSN program) is still on the drawing board. The navy does not have a modern torpedo aboard her submarines. The navy has ZERO minesweepers. That was the negatives that I can think off.

The Arihant Class - while operated by the Indian Navy - is part of India's strategic nuclear triad. She is a SSBN, not a SSN. She has only one role - to launch nuclear-tipped SLBMs at the enemy, when given the order by India's Nuclear Command Authority. She does not conduct any other role (i.e. recon, strike, etc) like a SSN or even a conventionally powered SSK. She does not carry any anti-ship or cruise missiles - regardless of what wiki says - but she is armed with torpedoes for defensive purposes.

The positives are Project 15B (Vizag Class) are progressing well and so is the Nilgiri Class (Project 17A). After years of waiting, the Navy is finally getting a state of the art ASW helicopter (MH-60R). The fixed wing MPA fleet (P-8I) is also going strong and will be complemented by the C-295 in the years ahead. The Indian Navy's UAV capability will get a massive boost, if the MQ-9B is acquired by the GOI.

The Indian Navy has a lot of plugging in the gaping holes, before she can truly call herself a blue water navy.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Have you noticed how each of our Armed Forces have their pet-Achilles-heel:

1) For the IN, it was always the submarine arm
2) For the IAF, it used to be SAMs. But it has now shifted to fighter aircrafts itself (which is a shame!)
3) For the IA, it has remained the artillery

Huge institutional inertia, due to which these problems remain problems even after decades
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

Prem Kumar wrote:Have you noticed how each of our Armed Forces have their pet-Achilles-heel:

1) For the IN, it was always the submarine arm
2) For the IAF, it used to be SAMs. But it has now shifted to fighter aircrafts itself (which is a shame!)
3) For the IA, it has remained the artillery

Huge institutional inertia, due to which these problems remain problems even after decades

I would think once complete indigenous solutions arrive much like the missile tech , these should go away. Awareness of the problem is first step to solution.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> No impact of the Russia-Ukraine war on the two Talwar Class stealth warships being constructed in the Russian shipyards for the Indian Navy: Vice Admiral SN Ghormade.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Ukraine War will not impact the two under-construction warships of the Indian Navy in Russia. Both will be delivered as per schedule.
Direct contradiction of the above statement to the media, just last month :lol:

Six-month delay in delivery of two stealth frigates by Russia due to war in Ukraine
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 779161.ece
17 Aug 2022
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Yeap I noted that earlier. At this point, this is starting to look more and more like a write off. Still surprised they haven’t scrapped Goa SY +2 Grigorovich deal.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The more important question to ask is why GSL and the Russians cannot produce these ships at the same time.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

The question is why did we need to get the Russians involved in the first place. We have the Shivalik Class and Talwar class etc. Sure we could have done this all here in country.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

ks_sachin wrote:The question is why did we need to get the Russians involved in the first place. We have the Shivalik Class and Talwar class etc. Sure we could have done this all here in country.

Some possibilities come to mind.

1) the navy wanted this class over the Shivalik class.

2) this is a jazia payment to Russians for continued support.

3) The then raksha mantri wanted to increase the number of yards capable of building larger warship types and this class was a low hanging fruit. Because of Russian technical support. Please note, that the Shivalik would not have needed any foreign support.

4) we are a stupid nation that cannot act in a logical way. If it's life depended on it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:The more important question to ask is why GSL and the Russians cannot produce these ships at the same time.
GSL ships are being built from scratch where as Russians are essentially completing the two abandoned Grigorovich vessels. All they have to do is install the turbines and finish fitting the weapons and radar.
ks_sachin wrote:The question is why did we need to get the Russians involved in the first place. We have the Shivalik Class and Talwar class etc. Sure we could have done this all here in country.
Well there is no rational reason so we just have to extrapolate on navy’s reasoning.

1. Pressure. Pressure from Government to buy these from Russia and something is better than nothing so IN didn’t oppose it.

2. Bargain. There was thought process we are getting the two Grigorovich vessels for a bargain and Talwars have performed well so it’s “seems” to be good deal on paper. But why seems because if you think it thru It is hardly a bargain?

Russian are getting 950 million for these 2 vessels (without the turbine) so far so good right? But that doesn’t include the turbines now we also have 500 mill free $$ for transfer of Talwar tech to build more in GSL. So if you put 100 mill for turbines it ultimately works out to 800+ mill $ each hardly a bargain..

3. Make in India. Getting GSL to build these vessels would open up another SY that can build frigates and in future build perhaps more modified variants of Talwar. Shivalik/P-17 have baggage of making us dependent on GE turbines (US). This one doesn’t make much sense but there is no other rational explanation.

Given how NGC which where in limbo for years got approved all of a sudden few months back. It seems that is make up for these vessels most likely getting delayed/canceled.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rakesh wrote: Direct contradiction of the above statement to the media, just last month :lol:

Six-month delay in delivery of two stealth frigates by Russia due to war in Ukraine
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 779161.ece
17 Aug 2022
Makes sense. The previous statements were the assessment then. Russia was expecting Ukr campaign to be short and quick. Almost 5 weeks later the schedule might be lot clearer now that Russia has to supply stuff to their own campaign.

Something has to give.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Navy needs mindset change as theatre has shifted from Karachi to Indo-Pacific
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 79441.html
28 Aug 2022
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Anujan »

https://theprint.in/defence/indian-navy ... s/1107654/

Indian Navy to get new flag as Modi govt gets rid of colonial St. George’s Cross
The Indian Navy will get a new Naval Ensign (Nishaan) Friday which will be unveiled by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Kochi during the commissioning of India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier, Vikrant.

A statement released by the Prime Minister’s Office said the new ensign would do “away with the colonial past… befitting the rich Indian maritime heritage”.
Sources in the defence and security establishment remained tight-lipped about the new design but told ThePrint that the cross will go. Also, the naval crest depicting an anchor would be added besides certain colour changes. The sources added that a commonality would be maintained with the Flags of the Army and the Indian Air Force.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/cslcochin/status/15 ... cbULrl1Ygg ---> Keel laying of the first Anti Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft for @indiannavy was held. Vice Admiral Kiran Deshmukh, AVSM, VSM, Comptroller of Warship Production & Acquisition laid the keel in the presence of @madsnair66, CMD CSL and other senior CSL and Navy officials.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ramana »

Prasar Bharati
CSL starts building Navy’s first Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Craft

India’s largest public sector shipyard Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) has started process of building first warship (BY 523, Mahe) of Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Craft (ASW SWC) project in Kochi, Kerala.

The keel laying of the Indian Navy Ship is a major milestone activity in the shipbuilding process, which paves way for the amalgamation of various blocks toward a fully constructed ship. These platforms will undertake sub-surface surveillance in coastal areas with the purpose of detecting and neutralizing underwater threats.

Speaking on the occasion, Vice admiral Kiran Deshmukh, CWP&A said, “It is a noteworthy achievement by the shipyard and commended professionalism displayed by all.”

The construction of these vessels is a major boost for the ‘Aatma Nirbhar Bharat’ and India’s ‘Make in India’ commitment, he added while appreciating CSL efforts in achieving the milestone despite Covid constraints and resultant lockdowns.

The Keel laying of the ship was carried under the presence of by Vice admiral Kiran Deshmukh, Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition (CWP and A) in presence of Madhu S Nair, CMD, CSL, Commodore V Ganapathy, WPS (Koc), CSL, Directors and other senior officials of CSL and Indian Navy.

It is noteworthy that Keel laying of a ship is one of the imperative developments in the ship’s life. The day marks the birth of the ship. The keel of a ship is the “primary fore-and-aft part of a ship’s frame. It is a bottom structure that connects the stem and the stern.

Interestingly, on wooden or older steel ships, the keel extends the whole length of the vessel, which gets attached to the stem (the foremost steel part forming the bow), sternpost (the upright structural member at the stern), and the ribs of the vessel.

CSL’s Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Craft

Apart from (BY 523, Mahe), the steel cutting of 6th and 7th ships (BY 528 and BY 529) of Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Craft (ASW SWC) project under construction by Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL), Kochi, was also undertaken on 30 August 2022.

The steel cutting event and commencement of fabrication of any warship signify an important milestone, as this occasion marks the culmination of the preparatory process and kick-starts the construction phase of the ships.

Being a potent anti-submarine platform, the ships will further enhance the anti-submarine warfare capabilities of the Indian Navy and will serve the nation in safeguarding maritime interests.
Note Arabian Sea is a shallow sea wrt submarines. Most likely these ASW Craft will be on the West Coast. I don't see the tonnage or armament.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ramana »

Wikipedia on ASW SC class of ships. They are a corvette class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Subm ... )_corvette
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by putnanja »

What happened to the minesweepers? The korean bid got shelved. Is there any alternate plans for 6-8 minesweepers that were proposed earlier?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Finally...

Navy's new Ensign 'Nishaan' inspired by Shivaji Maharaj unveiled by PM Modi
Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday unveiled a new ensign of the Indian Navy during the commissioning of the country's first indigenously-built aircraft carrier - INS Vikrant - at Cochin Shipyard Limited in Kochi.

The new naval ensign unveiled on Friday was Nishaan. The earlier ensign of the Navy was a white flag with horizontal and vertical red stripes, with the Emblem of India emblazoned at the intersection of the two stripes, and the tricolour placed in the canton.

Navy's new ensign drops the St George's Cross and incorporates the royal seal of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.

The new ensign has the national flag on the upper canton. A blue octagonal shape with the national emblem sits atop an anchor, superimposed on a shield with the navy's motto.
Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Good change, but aesthetically leaves me unsatisfied....
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

A ship can be lost in war. Is it okay for the national flag to be sunk as a part of the naval ensign?
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