Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Mango question - Is it true that it does not have a missile approach warning system?
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
@yagnasri
Yes it does not have a MAWs. But yeah I posted a big list for Super 30 upgrade and provided some references as to how this is all doable if all of the right parties persevere.
Yes it does not have a MAWs. But yeah I posted a big list for Super 30 upgrade and provided some references as to how this is all doable if all of the right parties persevere.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
thanks sumeetSumeet wrote:@yagnasri
Yes it does not have a MAWs. But yeah I posted a big list for Super 30 upgrade and provided some references as to how this is all doable if all of the right parties persevere.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Superb post Sumeet
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
I'm genuinely surprised that MKI does not have MAWS. Is the process to integrate MAWS to MKI was not technically feasible until now, or this just is not a priority for IAF's operational needs?Sumeet wrote:@yagnasri
Yes it does not have a MAWs.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
I would say iaf priority is 114 mrfa as the chief does not tire of reminding us. So maws and others can wait. If you were to magically upgrade all 260 su30mki to super Sukhoi standard, an argument can be made against the need for 114 mrfa. Since mrfa is highest priority (maybe the only priority), maws etc have to wait. Unless there is a political decision (and not iaf decision) , Sukhoi upgrade May happen only after 114 mrfa.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
This 114 MRFA focus whilst ignoring the Su-30 fleet really makes you wonder about AHQ and its priorities.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
A vast majority of the world's 4th and 4+ gen aircraft don't have a MAWS. It is certainly the exception and not the norm. That said, an all inclusive "Super" upgrade to the MKI is a min 15 year program especially given some of the things being wished for don't even exist yet (A LWIR or a dual LWIR/MWIR IRST is a 10+ year project assuming all the tech needed for it is extremely mature and proven). Best to approach this one to two things at a time and begin fielding squadrons of the "enhanced" MKI much quicker.Jay wrote:I'm genuinely surprised that MKI does not have MAWS. Is the process to integrate MAWS to MKI was not technically feasible until now, or this just is not a priority for IAF's operational needs?Sumeet wrote:@yagnasri
Yes it does not have a MAWs.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
MAWS is a high priority project. Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA are under prototype production right now and they both will sport them. If they don't get them proven, IAF won't even look at them. And we know both platforms will sport their own versions of a MAWS. So they might not be that far into the future as one might think.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
By now any half sensible planner would have funded a Su-30 sized Uttam, advanced the funding for a desi Su-30 prototype. IAF has got so spoilt hankering for unobtainium imports ie MRFA with the belief they will be available irrespective of the budget reality, that they haven't even bothered with the Su-30 upgrade as a full program. Just pushing files between Russia, HAL and DRDO while banking on a magical MRFA.
All the while our opponents are having combined industrial and weaponisation policies that make the IAF look primitive in comparison.
All the while our opponents are having combined industrial and weaponisation policies that make the IAF look primitive in comparison.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Actually it makes you wonder on many more things, priority being least of itKaran M wrote:This 114 MRFA focus whilst ignoring the Su-30 fleet really makes you wonder about AHQ and its priorities.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Yes it does. Chasing after relatively low priority procurements like the C-295 while combat oriented upgrades are still pending.
Delaying Tejas orders until Parrikar forced them to reconsider and brought in the Mk1A, something they were unable to do on their own.
Not able to fund, sponsor or consider an indigenous Su-30 upgrade with a local radar and adopting a, wait and watch approach.
Ignoring the AMRAAM threat and only counting on what came with the Flanker tlnot realising PRC had the same fit and PAF knew of it.
IAF has been chalta hain for a while now and doesn't seem to consider combat oriented upgrades to existing fleet a priority.
Its only hankering for best of the best big ticket 4th gen purchases in an era where 5th gen is the de facto standard.
Delaying Tejas orders until Parrikar forced them to reconsider and brought in the Mk1A, something they were unable to do on their own.
Not able to fund, sponsor or consider an indigenous Su-30 upgrade with a local radar and adopting a, wait and watch approach.
Ignoring the AMRAAM threat and only counting on what came with the Flanker tlnot realising PRC had the same fit and PAF knew of it.
IAF has been chalta hain for a while now and doesn't seem to consider combat oriented upgrades to existing fleet a priority.
Its only hankering for best of the best big ticket 4th gen purchases in an era where 5th gen is the de facto standard.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
So at this point only the Rafales have MAWS and no other planes in IAF inventory have them. We have a 270+ MKI's which form the back bone of our fighter fleet, tasked to take the air superiority role and yet we seem to have neglected to make them more survivable in an threat environment by not providing MAWS. Might not be for entire fleet, but I though there would a subset of MKI fleet kitted up with all the available survival gear to form the tip of the spear. I so wish IAF abandons this unreasonable hankering of these "NEWEST" fancy planes and focus on what we have and enhance our capabilities. As a layman, I'm at a loss and I hope it's me who's not seeing the entire picture.brar_w wrote: A vast majority of the world's 4th and 4+ gen aircraft don't have a MAWS. It is certainly the exception and not the norm.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
I am not saying that the MKI shouldn't have had it, but that its not a surprise that it doesn't as of now and that one is planned for the future. I believe the SU-35 was the first flanker to actually have it which came after the MKI configuration was developed.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
My opinion - I think you are very charitable to the forces. That is not the root cause, but it is a symptom. If you follow through, you will get the root cause.Karan M wrote:
Its only hankering for best of the best big ticket .
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
I think the RMAF Su-30s actually had managed to get a Swedish or South African MAWS/LWS kit on their birds IIRC.brar_w wrote:I am not saying that the MKI shouldn't have had it, but that its not a surprise that it doesn't as of now and that one is planned for the future. I believe the SU-35 was the first flanker to actually have it which came after the MKI configuration was developed.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
I thought BARS was being built 100% in desh?Karan M wrote:Radar, IRST, first mission computer, SPJ, stores management system, FBW computer including the DFCC, all the input sensors, most of the basic stuff is Russian.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
This is bloody unbelievable - truly. I lost a lot of faith when I didn't see more #s being ordered for the Mk1 @ foc. Something is not right at AHQ, we need a proactive Defmin like Parrikar to take this on. I shudder to thing where the AF would've been (esp. the MKI fleet) had he not been there.Karan M wrote:By now any half sensible planner would have funded a Su-30 sized Uttam, advanced the funding for a desi Su-30 prototype. IAF has got so spoilt hankering for unobtainium imports ie MRFA with the belief they will be available irrespective of the budget reality, that they haven't even bothered with the Su-30 upgrade as a full program. Just pushing files between Russia, HAL and DRDO while banking on a magical MRFA.
All the while our opponents are having combined industrial and weaponisation policies that make the IAF look primitive in comparison.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
MAWS detects the approach of a missile through the tracking of its "plume". Now we know that a missile uses its motor only for a few seconds of its life cycle and after that it just "coasts". The Query is what is the range of a MAWS, will it be effective against a longer range IR missile like the MICA. The way to avoid a Heat seekers is to pre flare. How effective will be the counter measures (flares) when used after launch. Are MAWS best used with DIRCM?Prasad wrote:MAWS is a high priority project. Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA are under prototype production right now and they both will sport them. If they don't get them proven, IAF won't even look at them. And we know both platforms will sport their own versions of a MAWS. So they might not be that far into the future as one might think.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Those are UV based MAWS. Dual IR maws can detect missile in coasting phase as well.SidSoma wrote:MAWS detects the approach of a missile through the tracking of its "plume". Now we know that a missile uses its motor only for a few seconds of its life cycle and after that it just "coasts". The Query is what is the range of a MAWS, will it be effective against a longer range IR missile like the MICA. The way to avoid a Heat seekers is to pre flare. How effective will be the counter measures (flares) when used after launch. Are MAWS best used with DIRCM?Prasad wrote:MAWS is a high priority project. Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA are under prototype production right now and they both will sport them. If they don't get them proven, IAF won't even look at them. And we know both platforms will sport their own versions of a MAWS. So they might not be that far into the future as one might think.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Karan M wrote:By now any half sensible planner would have funded a Su-30 sized Uttam, advanced the funding for a desi Su-30 prototype. IAF has got so spoilt hankering for unobtainium imports ie MRFA with the belief they will be available irrespective of the budget reality, that they haven't even bothered with the Su-30 upgrade as a full program. Just pushing files between Russia, HAL and DRDO while banking on a magical MRFA.
All the while our opponents are having combined industrial and weaponisation policies that make the IAF look primitive in comparison.
I would say that rather than scattering energy and focus on that entire laundry list of upgrades, the priority should be:Sumeet wrote:Well this is my wishlist for Super Sukhoi & how it can be done for most part indigenously with minimal Russian involvement:
also, if we are able to pull this off the whole world of Su-30 fighters will be looking at us for upgrade.....
1. To leverage on the SU-30 strengths.
2. Mitigate it's weakness/vulnerabilities.
It's strengths IMO is it's payload capacity and range. But to fully utilize that it needs a much wider range of AA as well as AGM munitions. That can only happen with a local radar so that imported munitions can be integrated (your Meteor example) so priority number one should be the upscaled Uttam radar for the SU-30 to be fitted fleet wide. That will de-couple locally developed munitions from what can be sourced from abroad so that any lag in the development of local munitions can be mitigated by sourcing from abroad. Besides it will have the added advantage of having an AESA radar with all it's benefit over the existing Bars PESA radar.
It's biggest vulnerability is it's size and big radar cross section. All PLAAF as well as PAF aircraft that it faces have a much smaller rcs and hence need much less powerful radars to detect the SU-30 at equivalent distances. Online reports indicate that the SU-30 has an RCS of anywhere from 15 m^2 to 20 m^2. To mitigate this vulnerability it needs on a priority basis a local developed jamming pod. Not only for self protection but also for offensive operations. So I would suggest that the under development AESA based ASPJ be regarded as a first and interim step to provide self protection initially but that it be developed further such that it can evolve to provide wide band offensive jamming and if necessary to convert upto 30% of the SU-30 fleet as dedicated EW escorts with wide band offensive jamming pods.
Reports indicate that the SU-35 has an rcs of ~3 m^2. China bought 24 of the SU-35s a few years ago widely believed for the purpose of studying engine technology. But I think also to study as to how Russia had effected an rcs reduction of ~80% vs the SU-27s and SU-30MKKs. PLAAF J-11s reportedly have an rcs of 3 m^2. A reduction of this magnitude can make the difference between being detected and not detected at a range of 250 km at an altitude of 10,000 meters (the test release altitude of Rudram-1).
DRDO should start doing research into ram coatings as well as composities for the SU-30 for application to areas that provide high visibility radar returns. I think that is how the SU-30 as well as J-11 have reduced their rcs.
Study Egyptian SU-35s, collaborate with Israel if necessary on ram coatings.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Karan M wrote:Superb post Sumeet
Thanks Karan for your kind words. Sorry for delayed response I got pre occupied with some stuff in life.
I agree with your posts about lack of planning by IAF. A bhikari nation just because its prompt to capture on any opportunity and clear in it's intent can put together a good arms package (Erierye + F-16 + AMRAAM C5) while IAF will chase unattainable mirages (pun intended) and only act reactively whenever they are forced into waking up from slumber as was case with urgent procurement of SDR after Balakot exposed communication issues and active consideration of I-Derby ER for MKI since AMRAAM C-5 out ranged them. TSP had this since 2010 if I am not mistaken and in 9 years they didn't think about it. All that we kept hearing was MRCA MRCA ....Karan M wrote:By now any half sensible planner would have funded a Su-30 sized Uttam, advanced the funding for a desi Su-30 prototype. IAF has got so spoilt hankering for unobtainium imports ie MRFA with the belief they will be available irrespective of the budget reality, that they haven't even bothered with the Su-30 upgrade as a full program. Just pushing files between Russia, HAL and DRDO while banking on a magical MRFA.
All the while our opponents are having combined industrial and weaponisation policies that make the IAF look primitive in comparison.
If IAF cannot get hands on more Rafale then drop this MRFA crap and go with full force after MoD, MoF and DRDO/HAL for Tejas Mk1/Mk2 and Super Sukhoi in near term and AMCA long term. You have as nationalist of a govt as you will get in current scenario (with good hope of them returning to power in 2024) and still there is no urge to capitalize on opportunity. It was visionary/out of box thinking which made MKI (aircraft made from systems from several countries - Russia, France, Israel and India) possible in the first place. That thinking (mojo) power of IAF over last 18-20 years has dissipated ever since it began chasing M2K after Kargil success.
TSP is on brink of economic collapse, we should have been able to plan and procure and made them a non player to such an extent that even if China wants to subsidize their Air force it would also understand the gap between IAF and PAF is so much that any amount of baksheeh won't matter.
My greatest fear is now Russia may be more open to sharing Radar and Engine tech with China and that will have implications for Indian security if we don't double down on indigenization and growth of our MIC in public/private partnership model.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Agree with you on all points. Import obsessed AF which pay lip service to indigenization and keep thinking the GOI will buy them imported toys which as an aware veteran told me, we are no longer sure are unique to us. Just check how many AF have purchased the Rafale.
A GOI which won't crack the whip, and nor is it willing to spend on accelerating domestic R&D or purchasing expensive imports if it won't do the former, but finds the fiscal space to fund electoral sop after sop or build statues.
Between the two, vwe have a MIC that ambles when it should have been sprinting. But never mind, WhatsApp forwards tell me that Pak and China are scared of us.
You are absolutely right about the Russia China axis solidifying. It will only make PRC stronger and Russia less amenable to support us during Indo PRC conflict. We are running out if time, but nobody seems to care, so we shouldn't either. Meanwhile worthies bluster and brag about taking back Pok and Aksai Chin, when we are at our lowest fleet strength in decades.
A GOI which won't crack the whip, and nor is it willing to spend on accelerating domestic R&D or purchasing expensive imports if it won't do the former, but finds the fiscal space to fund electoral sop after sop or build statues.
Between the two, vwe have a MIC that ambles when it should have been sprinting. But never mind, WhatsApp forwards tell me that Pak and China are scared of us.
You are absolutely right about the Russia China axis solidifying. It will only make PRC stronger and Russia less amenable to support us during Indo PRC conflict. We are running out if time, but nobody seems to care, so we shouldn't either. Meanwhile worthies bluster and brag about taking back Pok and Aksai Chin, when we are at our lowest fleet strength in decades.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
HAL & BEL ink pact for search & track system for SU-30MKI.
Defence PSUs Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) on Tuesday signed a contract for co-development and co-production of long range dual band Infra-Red Search and Track System (IRST) for the Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft.
The contract was signed under the MAKE-II procedure of Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP) 2020, as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative.
“The proposed IRST system will be a high end strategic technology product in the field of defence avionics and technically competitive to existing IRST systems in the global market with features of television day camera, infrared and laser sensors in single window for air-to-air and air-to-ground target tracking and localisation. The system will enhance the Indian Air Force’s air superiority,” an HAL statement read.
“The joining hands of two defence PSUs for development of technologically critical IRST gives impetus to Atmanirbhar Bharat in the defence sector. This initiative also opens the future path in the field of indigenous defence manufacturing for development of high end strategic technology productS of IRST for various platforms in A global competitive environment,” HAL added.
Defence PSUs Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) on Tuesday signed a contract for co-development and co-production of long range dual band Infra-Red Search and Track System (IRST) for the Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft.
The contract was signed under the MAKE-II procedure of Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP) 2020, as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative.
“The proposed IRST system will be a high end strategic technology product in the field of defence avionics and technically competitive to existing IRST systems in the global market with features of television day camera, infrared and laser sensors in single window for air-to-air and air-to-ground target tracking and localisation. The system will enhance the Indian Air Force’s air superiority,” an HAL statement read.
“The joining hands of two defence PSUs for development of technologically critical IRST gives impetus to Atmanirbhar Bharat in the defence sector. This initiative also opens the future path in the field of indigenous defence manufacturing for development of high end strategic technology productS of IRST for various platforms in A global competitive environment,” HAL added.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Good move, but wonder if they'll be able to pull it off without IRDE involvement for subsystems.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Karen why duplicate efforts when IRDE is probably doing something like this?Karan M wrote:Good move, but wonder if they'll be able to pull it off without IRDE involvement for subsystems.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Karan M wrote:Agree with you on all points. Import obsessed AF which pay lip service to indigenization and keep thinking the GOI will buy them imported toys which as an aware veteran told me, we are no longer sure are unique to us. Just check how many AF have purchased the Rafale.
A GOI which won't crack the whip, and nor is it willing to spend on accelerating domestic R&D or purchasing expensive imports if it won't do the former, but finds the fiscal space to fund electoral sop after sop or build statues.
Between the two, vwe have a MIC that ambles when it should have been sprinting. But never mind, WhatsApp forwards tell me that Pak and China are scared of us.
You are absolutely right about the Russia China axis solidifying. It will only make PRC stronger and Russia less amenable to support us during Indo PRC conflict. We are running out if time, but nobody seems to care, so we shouldn't either. Meanwhile worthies bluster and brag about taking back Pok and Aksai Chin, when we are at our lowest fleet strength in decades.
During breaks at work, I have had many a discussion with goras, and guys from one country in particular said that we don't really care what tech we transfer to anyone, just so long as we get paid for it
and further, they said that what you may think is a good price is just not good enough for us.
and we are more than willing to transfer tech for the right price because, what we have in the pipeline is at least 10 times better than what you are asking to buy from us today.
By the time you deploy it, our newer systems will already be in the market, far outclassing what you bought from us including the transfer of technology.
there is nothing like a cut rate military making do with what is available. The ltte, all those years ago, had much better stuff than the IA had which is one of the reasons why the IA took so many needless causalities
It takes many many crores to convert one single pilot to the fighter stream and then again many many crores to keep him tactically trained, weapons proficient, and upgraded to current standards
we bought russki tanks, submarines, ships, and aircraft because no one was willing to sell us such lethal weapons at that special price and us and uk not even at any price.
Today these same us and uk aholes are begging us to buy useless platforms because redneck us and uk jobs depend on India buying their junk platforms and greedy senators are being pushed by the MIC to sell their obsolete junk to India
Also, today many say that India was so polite and did not reverse engineer systems and platforms like the barbarian hans did whereas the sad truth is that we couldn't reverse engineer them even if our lives depended on it.
The average performing jantha type airborne and marine platforms, air/ship borne weapon systems, and what not, simply translates to more body bags during war and precipitates operational inefficiencies leading to avoidable gaps in tactics and strategies.
whether its a rafale or an LCA, Indians have to ride them into battle, and whether one likes it or not, even the basic metrics of the survivability of the two platforms are definitely different
The cheenis are making a grab for the russki resources and putin or his successor is never going to allow that to happen.
So the kind of lover's embrace that folks here are envisaging between the hans and the russkis against India will never happen because it will be like the female praying mantis (cheenis) that devours the male (russkis)
whatever happens, just like the amrekis in the past, the russkis are also not going to put boots on the ground to come to India's aid, in case xi makes a move on us.
Both the amerikis and the russkis need India (may be to sacrifice later if they faced an existential threat from the hans)
So, if push comes to shove, we have to fight the cheenis and that too fight them all on our own with no external help coming under any circumstances.
So in these days of satellite and drone surveillance, where battlefield deployment can be seen in real time and supply lines can also be monitored in real time, the sun tzu mutra (not mantra) of "“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.” “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"" is absolute poppycock
they got themselves a bloody nose at galwan and lost face.
It's also unlikely that the heaven born will try again soon as they greatly fear the loss of face once again. The sheer hatred for the cheeni among the aam Indian jantha has also left them profoundly rattled and in serious cultural shock.
BTW, some of the conditions put down by the private players for supplying defence equipment is simply unbelievable
Domestic R&D players have long since blotted their copybooks and made it almost impossible for this govt to trust them to deliver. They have no credible leadership and what is there is capable only of cake and ribbon cutting baring some islands of excellence like the missile guys and a few other labs.
The avenues for the govt to invest is therefore limited to upgrading the defence PSUs on a project by project basis. The cost of production is hyper inflated to cater for the requirements of the unions. Why should systems made in India by PSUs cost so much more than those made abroad by OEMs, when in actual reality, the OEM's wages and social costs are way higher than those prevailing in India.
This govt is paranoid about getting enmeshed in any scandal and so are naturally cautious in venturing out into the unknown. The Defence sector is radioactive with respect to scandals and the free run of scoundrels, be it the gora, the retired or the enterprising and newly minted adventurer.
Our defence PSU's per capita production is way lower and per unit costing is way higher. This is something that has to be explained in simple and understandable language.
The defence PSUs unions have been infiltrated by scum bribed by offshore entities out to damage India's interests.
just like they did at koodunkulam and sterlite and two other big manufacturing plants, one each in KAR and TN
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/151 ... _V3pG7ixJw ---> JUST IN: HAL & BEL sign contract for co-development/production of Long Range Dual Band Infra-Red Search and Track System (IRST) for Su-30MKI.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... _V3pG7ixJw ---> The nosecone of the SU-30MKI tilted upwards for access to the Bars radar and the aircraft's avionics.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... GCZq3bJK8g ---> Astra Integration on more than 40 Su-30MKI is underway.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
will all Su 30s be covered and this is just to begin with or will it be just like brahmosRakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... _V3pG7ixJw ---> The nosecone of the SU-30MKI tilted upwards for access to the Bars radar and the aircraft's avionics.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
India shelves ₹35,000 crore plan to upgrade Su-30 fighter fleet amid Russia-Ukraine War
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 26134.html
08 May 2022
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 26134.html
08 May 2022
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... LlU9iud8gw ---> India has started the development of a universal air launcher for missiles on Su-30MKI. Two versions of the launcher are planned: A2A and A2G. Air to Ground launcher should carry a load of 0.5-1.5T.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
"universal for missiles on Su 30 MKI"
"two versions"
Reconciling aka Squaring the circle : possibly https://tdf.drdo.gov.in/system/files/pr ... ts-AAM.pdf
"In order to ensure compatibility of single launcher across the existing platforms of Indian Air Force (IAF) and also to ensure that the launcher can offer compatibility with future versions of Air to Air missile, redesign of the present Air to Air launcher is proposed"
"two versions"
Reconciling aka Squaring the circle : possibly https://tdf.drdo.gov.in/system/files/pr ... ts-AAM.pdf
"In order to ensure compatibility of single launcher across the existing platforms of Indian Air Force (IAF) and also to ensure that the launcher can offer compatibility with future versions of Air to Air missile, redesign of the present Air to Air launcher is proposed"
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 26134.html
" deal for the 12 most advanced Su-30MKI aircraft worth over ₹20,000 crore"
That's $2.56 bn or $212mn each (excluding any spares or services)
Back in 2020
" The procurement of 21 MiG-29 and upgrading of the existing fleet of MiG-29 are estimated to cost the government Rs 7,418 crore while purchase of 12 new Su-30 MKI from the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will be made at a cost of Rs 10,730 crore, the officials said."
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 200_1.html
You really think adding new AESA radars and avionics would have doubled the price?. - maybe there are lots of spares involved ? Or massive "one time" integration R&D charges a la Rafale ?. Not to mention that as a cost savings measure, HAL wasn't going to build them from scratch, but assemble kits from Russia for those 12.
" deal for the 12 most advanced Su-30MKI aircraft worth over ₹20,000 crore"
That's $2.56 bn or $212mn each (excluding any spares or services)
Back in 2020
" The procurement of 21 MiG-29 and upgrading of the existing fleet of MiG-29 are estimated to cost the government Rs 7,418 crore while purchase of 12 new Su-30 MKI from the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will be made at a cost of Rs 10,730 crore, the officials said."
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 200_1.html
You really think adding new AESA radars and avionics would have doubled the price?. - maybe there are lots of spares involved ? Or massive "one time" integration R&D charges a la Rafale ?. Not to mention that as a cost savings measure, HAL wasn't going to build them from scratch, but assemble kits from Russia for those 12.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
The problem is IAF and MoD don't realize, is that delay adds to costs.Barath wrote:https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 26134.html
" deal for the 12 most advanced Su-30MKI aircraft worth over ₹20,000 crore"
That's $2.56 bn or $212mn each (excluding any spares or services)
Back in 2020
" The procurement of 21 MiG-29 and upgrading of the existing fleet of MiG-29 are estimated to cost the government Rs 7,418 crore while purchase of 12 new Su-30 MKI from the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will be made at a cost of Rs 10,730 crore, the officials said."
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 200_1.html
You really think adding new AESA radars and avionics would have doubled the price?. - maybe there are lots of spares involved ? Or massive "one time" integration R&D charges a la Rafale ?. Not to mention that as a cost savings measure, HAL wasn't going to build them from scratch, but assemble kits from Russia for those 12.
IAf wants delay to create a situation to import US planes.
MoD is a bunch of bean counters who want to cut down the price to the bare minimum and as they haggle the prices go up.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
The shelving means that Su-30MKI will get upgraded domestic sources.
Besides after Ukraine War, Russia won't be able to supply anything.
Keep haggling.
Besides after Ukraine War, Russia won't be able to supply anything.
Keep haggling.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
Do they have the sense to do that though? By now they should have funded an Uttam derivative especially for the Su-30. But we see no signs for that. The IAF planning is beyond lethargic at times.
Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021
I would propose that there be a seperate arm within DRDO that takes these programs in spite of forces not explicitly asking for t. It should not be an r&d effort (i suppose DRDO already doe it), but a mission mode project to deliver something.
An iron bird (for avionics) just for technology that integrates the below hardwares (and integration can be in any permutation combination). Major effort will be in integration (assuming that we are sourcing individual components from the right place). 90% of the tech will be reusable. Not everything has to be ready on day 1, software wise as things mature, newer version gets released -
1.AESA radar (Uttam derivative - GAS/GAN..tomorrow something new) with ever evolving modes in different versions- This product can itself go into LCAMK1, MK2, AMCA, TEDBF, Mig29, M2K and SU30MKI. (You can see the bang for the buck). The difference will be how many AESA modules can go into it and the integration of cooling Unit
2.plug and play Integration with new gen IRST (this can fit into LCA MK2, MACA, TEDBF, MIG29 and SU30MKI) (not needed for LCAMK1A and m2k
3. plug and play integration with different cockpit layout - perhaps F-35ish
4. plug and play integration with Helmet mounted sight - Like Rafale - where due to high AI and software logic, minimal but all of vital info is displayed through the helmet, the cockpit display become redundant, act mostly like backups
5.Integrated with voice commands
6. Plug and play integration with RWR, DIRCM, MAWS ....all protective suite that Rafale has (one at a time). The individual units can be sourced from DRDO, private players, Israel, France, Russia...whoever
7.plug and play Integration with Electronic warfare suits, jammers, and counter EW - DRDO/ISraeli/Russians (many permutation combination)
8. plug and play integration with AA and AG weapon of Indian and many other foreign sources
9.Plug and play with external targeting system.
At heart of this effort is Indian Mission computer, open architecture, availability of mostly Indian subsystem; humongous, continuous integration. We as a nation have been good at it. DRDO has been at it from DARIN 1 times. We just need to see the big picture, centralize this effort, continuously fund it.
In any aircraft, this is easily 30-50% of the cost. This cost can be then spread across many aircrafts, even drones and helos and radar and awacs. Develop the core once, and then 90% of the building block is ready, only 10%, any aircraft related work is left.
An iron bird (for avionics) just for technology that integrates the below hardwares (and integration can be in any permutation combination). Major effort will be in integration (assuming that we are sourcing individual components from the right place). 90% of the tech will be reusable. Not everything has to be ready on day 1, software wise as things mature, newer version gets released -
1.AESA radar (Uttam derivative - GAS/GAN..tomorrow something new) with ever evolving modes in different versions- This product can itself go into LCAMK1, MK2, AMCA, TEDBF, Mig29, M2K and SU30MKI. (You can see the bang for the buck). The difference will be how many AESA modules can go into it and the integration of cooling Unit
2.plug and play Integration with new gen IRST (this can fit into LCA MK2, MACA, TEDBF, MIG29 and SU30MKI) (not needed for LCAMK1A and m2k
3. plug and play integration with different cockpit layout - perhaps F-35ish
4. plug and play integration with Helmet mounted sight - Like Rafale - where due to high AI and software logic, minimal but all of vital info is displayed through the helmet, the cockpit display become redundant, act mostly like backups
5.Integrated with voice commands
6. Plug and play integration with RWR, DIRCM, MAWS ....all protective suite that Rafale has (one at a time). The individual units can be sourced from DRDO, private players, Israel, France, Russia...whoever
7.plug and play Integration with Electronic warfare suits, jammers, and counter EW - DRDO/ISraeli/Russians (many permutation combination)
8. plug and play integration with AA and AG weapon of Indian and many other foreign sources
9.Plug and play with external targeting system.
At heart of this effort is Indian Mission computer, open architecture, availability of mostly Indian subsystem; humongous, continuous integration. We as a nation have been good at it. DRDO has been at it from DARIN 1 times. We just need to see the big picture, centralize this effort, continuously fund it.
In any aircraft, this is easily 30-50% of the cost. This cost can be then spread across many aircrafts, even drones and helos and radar and awacs. Develop the core once, and then 90% of the building block is ready, only 10%, any aircraft related work is left.