Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2023 21:33

Prasad wrote:You're saying that of the 240+ airframes we have, only 150 are worth upgrading?

Correct. And it is not I who is saying this but the plan stated in the Prasar Bharati link.
The rest of the fleet will get appropriate upgrades.

I think the engine upgrade is not related to the radar but to increase availability.

A fleet of 150 upgraded Su-30MKI KB (ka bacha) is quite potent.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2023 21:35

Aditya_V wrote:The earliest SU-30 MKI's were inducted in 2002, I think they will be retired by 2035-40 period, especially the first 50 Built in Russia by which time the LCA Mk2, AMCA and possibly ORCA will take up their roles.

or may be out of the 272-10 crashes, 130 odd were built somewhat in Russia( Full aircraft or CKD) while 140 were built in India. Are the differences significant enough that the IAF will only want to upgrade the ones built from "Raw Material" stage at HAL we may not know.

Your logic looks correct. The older planes should get partial upgrades.
Keep thinking always as you have done.
There is no thumbs-up smiley.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2023 21:19

Antenna of SDR (Software Defined Radio).

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 34049?s=20 ---> SDR equipped Su-30MKI.

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 52832?s=20 --->

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 03 Mar 2023 02:31

^^ Small nitpick saar. Should be Software Defined Radio.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Mar 2023 02:37

Shameek wrote:^^ Small nitpick saar. Should be Software Defined Radio.

Oops. My bad. Thank you for pointing out the faux pas.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Mar 2023 03:31

While we're going gaga over SDR, do we finally have real data sharing with other aircraft including AEW? What about passive cueing of missiles with targeting information from other aircraft?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Mar 2023 03:51

JTull wrote:While we're going gaga over SDR, do we finally have real data sharing with other aircraft including AEW? What about passive cueing of missiles with targeting information from other aircraft?

Not that I follow such things, however, IIRC IAF has AEW&C/AWACS. The C requires a two-way connection.

The AEW&C should know at every moment every detail of each aircraft it is commanding - including how much fuel, armaments, etc (else it cannot "command")

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Mar 2023 10:38

JTull wrote:While we're going gaga over SDR, do we finally have real data sharing with other aircraft including AEW? What about passive cueing of missiles with targeting information from other aircraft?

AFAIK passive cueing is not possible without FCR (xband radar) which AEW don't carry. The resolution on AEW radar (S/L bands?) is not considered good enough for firing solution. However, if an MKI can get targeting info, it could send it passively (via datalink) to other MKI/fighters which won't have to turn on their FCR and then take stealthy shots. The Gripen (and possibly even the Viggen could do this way back when).

Maybe it is possible that said MKI could pass on the info via datalink to an AEW, which could then relay it over much longer distances to other passive fighters. A threeway transmission with the AEW acting as an amplifier. Not sure if this is possible or even useful - perhaps some gurus can comment.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 03 Mar 2023 19:06

Netra II rumored to get X band radar as well.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 03 Mar 2023 23:37

Cain Marko wrote:
Maybe it is possible that said MKI could pass on the info via datalink to an AEW, which could then relay it over much longer distances to other passive fighters. A threeway transmission with the AEW acting as an amplifier. Not sure if this is possible or even useful - perhaps some gurus can comment.

Cain ji, with IAF's dream of 40 squadrons is in a "never possible" limbo, is there a reason why IAF did not prioritize these data sharing force multiplier abilities for our premier squadrons? Even a handful of fighters with encrypted SDR's, dualway high bandwith datalinks, SPJ's and self protection systems will tilt the advantage highly in our favor, even when we do not have big ticket assets like AWACS in the field.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Mar 2023 01:13

This passive cueing capability is now common in NATO. Post-Balakot PAF was rumoured to have used this. While our our Comms were also suspect, I'm more interested in this capability from SDR acquisition.

We've also discussed Astra-II/III and Brahmos-A derivatives being used as AWACS killers. How do you suppose they'll be cued? Surely we don't expect Su-30MKI to track and cue from 200+Kms.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 04 Mar 2023 01:48

SDR does all three - voice, data and video. Israeli ones specifically calls that out.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2023 05:06

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Isn't Prasar Bharati a Govt website ---> https://prasarbharati.gov.in/

Because they reported that the Super Sukhoi upgrade will include new engines ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7861&start=640#p2576636

From the above link (last paragraph)...

Assuming the above statement is actually going to happen, then Super Sukhoi will get the AL-41. There are two versions ---> AL-41F1 (izdeliye 117) and AL-41F1S (izdeliye 117S). I am not sure which one it will be.
Heh. Since they are referring to fgfa, which doesn't really exist, maybe they mean the izd30, the pakfas definitive engine?

Jokes apart, the engine upgrade might very well use the izd30.
1. These have reportedly been tested now in the su57.
2. This would also confirm HVTjis statement of no engine upgrade (since he was referring to the 117s , which have lesser thrust)
3. That's what the prasar bharati bit of p probably referring to when they say pakfa engines.
4. I always suspected that the IAF was slow on the mki radar because it was waiting for said engines. These engines have been confirmed on the pakfa only recently (late 2022). On cue the chit chat on mki upgrade has also materialized!
The pakfa engines (izd30) on the mki will be a HUGE upgrade in thrust. Bringing it on par with the Su-35 twr.
Thrust levels on the mki:
Original al31fp engine: 8kgf dry/12.5kgf wet
Al41 (f117s) from Su-35; 9kgf/14kgf
Izd30 (definitive pakfa): 11kgf dry/16.5kgf ab.

The pakfa is without doubt the bird with the best twr right now (without the izd30), and has already broken vertical climb records. Wonder what it'll do with the additional thrust. The claim is that it is capable of staying supersonic in it's entire flight regime (including during bfn) without using afterburners

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2023 05:08

Jay wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
Maybe it is possible that said MKI could pass on the info via datalink to an AEW, which could then relay it over much longer distances to other passive fighters. A threeway transmission with the AEW acting as an amplifier. Not sure if this is possible or even useful - perhaps some gurus can comment.
Cain ji, with IAF's dream of 40 squadrons is in a "never possible" limbo, is there a reason why IAF did not prioritize these data sharing force multiplier abilities for our premier squadrons? Even a handful of fighters with encrypted SDR's, dualway high bandwith datalinks, SPJ's and self protection systems will tilt the advantage highly in our favor, even when we do not have big ticket assets like AWACS in the field.

Sirji, i believe that's what they've been working on for the past few years... Now results are being seen. Although I'm still not sure how these will obviate the need for AEW.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2023 05:17

JTull wrote:This passive cueing capability is now common in NATO. Post-Balakot PAF was rumoured to have used this. While our our Comms were also suspect, I'm more interested in this capability from SDR acquisition.

We've also discussed Astra-II/III and Brahmos-A derivatives being used as AWACS killers. How do you suppose they'll be cued? Surely we don't expect Su-30MKI to track and cue from 200+Kms.

Does the sdr actually provide targeting info and tracks? My understanding, rudimentary as it is, is that sdr will provide secure and passive links, but the tracks will still have to come from fcr.

I believe the Euros had suggested using their passive ew suites as targeting systems vs emitting platforms such as aew or even fighters. Supposedly raffle and Tiffy can do this.

The passive linking that you refer to on the f16 is not so cutting edge anymore. As i said the swedes had said capacity for a long time. Iirc even the Shar and mki had it.

Targeting of aew by a brahmos variant shouldn't be a challenge considering the reach of the brahmos, it's huge onboard seeker and the mki/bars long reach.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Mar 2023 21:14

https://twitter.com/UTobyM/status/16319 ... 26592?s=20 ---> Deep Industrialization two decades ago: Everything in green - the entire empennage and control surfaces were manufactured in India by @DynamaticTech from raw billets, forgings, and metal sheets. An exceptional PPP with HAL and robust engineering skills by our team. #MakeInIndia

https://twitter.com/UTobyM/status/16324 ... 67904?s=20 ---> Under the skin, all of the 3,500+ detail parts were manufactured by @DynamaticTech, who brought digitization into what hitherto was an analog Russian manufacturing program. This significantly improved data fidelity, repeatability & build quality. Images distorted for confidentiality.

prashantsharma · Post by **prashantsharma** » 07 Mar 2023 12:47

Furthermore, the IAF will potentially be able to launch the Rampage from the entire fleet, incl Jags, mirage, mig29s, raffles and Tejas, given the stated weight of 560kg. Brahmots can be carried only by a limited number of specially modified sukhois. And now apparently the IN has got it for the mig-29s.

Pratyush wrote:
nits wrote:though sir i respect IAF Decision as i dont know the circumstances or specific requirement they have i believe

1) this send wrong signal to potential Brahmos buyers that our forces itself consider it as expensive and they may also look Rampage as alternative; that's like shooting on our own foot

Snip....

Mods - move the post to relevant thread as applicable
This is not really that simple.

What should have been done was to ask the DRDO to design and air launched version of the guided Pinaka. Which is what the rampage is in the Israeli context.

Or re-use the warhead section and the guidance kit Pinaka and mate it to a more powerful booster for a longer range.

Brahmos is not really in the same class.

Therefore, purchase of rampage missile makes no difference in terms of what potential buyers are thinking about the Brahmos.

PS:

1) whatever happened to the air launched ballestic missile DRDO was developing?

2) why is rudram getting so many versions without any version entering production.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Mar 2023 20:31

https://twitter.com/defenceattnews/stat ... 55808?s=20 ---> Two Su-30MKI fighter aircraft carried out landing and flying operations from Chennai International Airport for first time. In case of any eventuality, this procedure for fighter operations from civilian airfields will be used in operations.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Mar 2023 20:53

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 69508?s=20 ---> CASDIC (Combat Aircraft Systems Development & Integration Centre) to start the identification of Development-cum-Production Partner for the much awaited Electronic Warfare (EW) suite for Su-30MKI upgrade program. During the Design & Development Phase, ~ 6 Sets of EW Suite will be procured/developed, integrated and supplied by DCPP. After successful flight evaluation of D&D stage, DCPP will have to produce and supply a minimum of 20 sets of EW Suite per year to the user.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 16 Mar 2023 18:11

Defence Acquisition Council approves proposals worth Rs 70,500 crore for the Armed Forces & Indian Coast Guard under Buy (Indian-IDDM) category

.....To keep pace with the emerging technologies and counter the adversaries in the Western and Northern front, the necessity of the new weapons and its integration with the delivery platforms was felt by the Government. To achieve the same objectives, the DAC accorded the approval to Indian Air Force’s proposal for Long Range Stand-Off Weapon (LRSOW) which will be indigenously designed, developed and integrated on SU-30 MKI aircraft.

Any guesses on this LRSOW?
Nirbhay ALCM?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 18 Mar 2023 08:09

LRSOW is Gaurav Glide Bomb.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 18 Mar 2023 14:09

Thakur_B wrote:LRSOW is Gaurav Glide Bomb.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Glide_Bombs

Gaurav s range is 100km, LRSOW more than 1000km

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 18 Mar 2023 17:48

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 69508?s=20 ---> CASDIC (Combat Aircraft Systems Development & Integration Centre) to start the identification of Development-cum-Production Partner for the much awaited Electronic Warfare (EW) suite for Su-30MKI upgrade program. During the Design & Development Phase, ~ 6 Sets of EW Suite will be procured/developed, integrated and supplied by DCPP. After successful flight evaluation of D&D stage, DCPP will have to produce and supply a minimum of 20 sets of EW Suite per year to the user.

Can the SPECTRA system from France be installed on Su-30MKI or even Tejas?

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 18 Mar 2023 18:22

Kersi wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 69508?s=20 ---> CASDIC (Combat Aircraft Systems Development & Integration Centre) to start the identification of Development-cum-Production Partner for the much awaited Electronic Warfare (EW) suite for Su-30MKI upgrade program. During the Design & Development Phase, ~ 6 Sets of EW Suite will be procured/developed, integrated and supplied by DCPP. After successful flight evaluation of D&D stage, DCPP will have to produce and supply a minimum of 20 sets of EW Suite per year to the user.
Can the SPECTRA system from France be installed on Su-30MKI or even Tejas?

Even if we can, should we? Instead of paying through the nose, which it will probably be why not develop in house and make it better with future iterations?

mody · Post by **mody** » 18 Mar 2023 21:01

drnayar wrote:
Kersi wrote: Can the SPECTRA system from France be installed on Su-30MKI or even Tejas?
Even if we can, should we? Instead of paying through the nose, which it will probably be why not develop in house and make it better with future iterations?

EW suite has to be compatible with the aircraft radar and a lot of other electronics and avionics. Its not possible to take a comprehensive internal EW suite like Spectra and put it on the SU-30MKI

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Mar 2023 21:14

As per the Air Chief, some technologies from the chosen MRFA is supposed to go towards AMCA. It will land up first in the Tejas Mk2.

The Su-30MKI will NOT get those technologies. The upcoming Super Sukhoi upgrade will be a separate venture.

mody · Post by **mody** » 18 Mar 2023 21:20

Tender has been issued for integration of Gaurav guided bombs on the Su-30MKI. Apparently upto 6 dedicated Su-30MKIs are being used for testing various new weapons systems and sub systems.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Mar 2023 22:50

The 1000+ Km range for LRSOW seems to be from IDRW. So, take it with a pinch of salt.

There are no details about any params of LRSOW till now

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 18 Mar 2023 23:43

drnayar wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:LRSOW is Gaurav Glide Bomb.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Glide_Bombs

Gaurav s range is 100km, LRSOW more than 1000km

1000 km is idrw masala.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Mar 2023 02:39

LRSOW is likely to be derivative of ITCM/Nirbhay. This announcement signals funding for development of airborne variant withouy boosters, different guidance logic, et al.

basant · Post by **basant** » 19 Mar 2023 08:57

Can glide bombs be derived from cruise missiles?

VishnuS · Post by **VishnuS** » 19 Mar 2023 12:53

basant wrote:Can glide bombs be derived from cruise missiles?

In theory, yes!

Glide bomb is nothing but an ordinary bomb with wings!

I also doubt whether cruise missiles have powered flight throughout the entire flight regime!

What I'd love to see is, Nirbhay with a stealth profile, 20km altitude throughout the flight regime and very high steep dive angle, just like Brahmos.

basant · Post by **basant** » 19 Mar 2023 22:07

Cruise missiles are powered throughout the flight, that is how despite being subsonic they can maintain low height and also follow terrain. It is ballistic missiles that are powered only in the boost phase and then use gravity to cover the trajectory akin to projectiles. I doubt if one can be derived from the other.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 20 Mar 2023 14:49

Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Mar 2023 14:58

JTull wrote:Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.

smart bombs saar....

It will probably stop of at a gas station en route, tank up, pay with a stolen credit card, before mounting the final assault

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 24 Mar 2023 18:16

DR-118 Radar Warning Receiver for SU-30 MKI.

The second contract, at an overall cost of approximately Rs 950 crore, relates to 129 DR-118 Radar Warning Receivers (RWR).According to the IAF the DR-118 Radar Warning Receiver will considerably enhance the electronic warfare (EW) capabilities of the Su-30 MKI aircraft. The majority of the sub-assemblies and parts will be sourced from indigenous manufacturers. The project will boost participation of Indian electronics and associated industries, including MSMEs.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 24 Mar 2023 19:00

JTull wrote:Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.

It is not a glide bomb at all.
https://idrw.org/iafs-su-30-fleet-to-be ... e-missile/

summary of article: LRSOW is an Air Launched Cruise Missile program (subsonic) with range of 1000-1500km based on ITCM

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 24 Mar 2023 19:41

Avid wrote:
JTull wrote:Never heard of a 1000km glide bomb. It will have to powered or it will have to be dropped from 200km altitude.
It is not a glide bomb at all.
https://idrw.org/iafs-su-30-fleet-to-be ... e-missile/

summary of article: LRSOW is an Air Launched Cruise Missile program (subsonic) with range of 1000-1500km based on ITCM

LOL using IDRW as a source

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 24 Mar 2023 19:52

IDRW should be banned here just like the Paki forums.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2023 20:41

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 81824?s=20 ---> India's President Smt Droupadi Murmu takes a sortie on a Su-30MKI. The President flew for 30 minutes covering Brahmaputra & Tezpur valley. The Su-30MKI was flown by Group Captain Naveen Kumar Tiwari, CO of 106 Squadron. Flew at a height of about two kms above SL & speed of 800 kmph.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 98913?s=20 ---> Truly wonderful. The Supreme Commander of the Indian Armed Forces & the President of India Smt Droupadi Murmu, today inspected Guard of Honour on her arrival at AF Station Tezpur before taking a sortie on the Su-30MKI fighter aircraft.