Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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Sumeet
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Sumeet »

All this is speculation.

Indian RWR, Radar Russian and EW support system Israeli ---> Please recall that we have been down that road and landed up with unsolvable problems of incompatibility due to RF interference of one of these components with another component.

There can't be a desi growler MKI till India can develop indigenous capability for R&D and production of all these three components. At the best we can tweak our own next gen Digital RWR and Uttam AESA radar variant to be compatible with Scorpius support jammer. But then I don't see a UTTAM radar for MKI coming out anytime soon.
ldev
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ldev »

According to Flightglobal there are 2 different Scorpio pods, the SP model which provides self-protection and the SJ model, slung under the centreline hardpoint which provides stand off jamming against ground based and air borne search and targeting radars and can therefore act as an escort for other aircraft in the package.
A larger, SJ-model contained within a pod fitted beneath a host aircraft’s centreline will provide standoff jamming, able to “disrupt enemy aerial and ground-based electromagnetic operations across a vast sector”, IAI says.

“Now you can see everything that’s out there, and jam it simultaneously,” Fostick says. “The support jammer offers the ability to address a whole region of enemy airspace and ground-based air defence systems, and nullify them all, opening the airspace for safe activity by other aircraft.”

IAI revealed its work in this area after its Scorpius T training version was successfully employed during a multinational Blue Flag-series exercise in Israel during October. Capable of emulating modern air-defence system equipment, the technology received “excellent feedback” from participating air forces, Fostick says.
The Indian Air Force participated in the Blue Flag exercises in Israel and would have been exposed to the Scorpio pods.

IAI unveils Scorpius jamming, self-protection pods

Given that the digital DR-118 RWR will happen when it happens, ditto the Uttam aesa radar, I guess the IAF had no other option to mitigate it's current EW vulnerability than go in for some kind of EW protection, either the SP or SJ models or maybe both, even if there IS some RF cross interference. And to iron out the RF issues as and when the DR-118 and Uttam radars are available.
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Found some interesting images/screen grabs. Full Mission Simulators (insides) of the Su-30MKA.

Images credit to Twitter user @awweze

http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/201 ... lator.html

So far the only image from outside (i.e. Rambha FMS) I recall is this from Trishul.

Farce mag says VayuSena has 6 FMS systems for the fleet

Image

Image
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Also remembered this NatGeo Spl on the Baaz(bhideo courtesy Hakim) Klimov removal from the engine bay



FF to 2:33

And now see Al-31FP removal.

Image

Quite a lot more hands needed.
Sumeet
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Sumeet »

ldev wrote:According to Flightglobal....
This is easier said than done. I will only believe when I see it happening. Besides all this, Su-30s RCS is so huge that it may not be an effective platform for electronic attack and stand off jamming. IADS like S-400 or even Chinese versions of IADS which is also with TSP, Erieye AWACS will see MKI coming from a long distance. Hence support jammer would have to do a lot of work (changing energy requirements, effective radiated power etc) to be effective work at very long distance compared to if the same was installed on Rafale or Tejas Mk2 or even Growler NG.
kit
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Sumeet wrote:
ldev wrote:According to Flightglobal....
This is easier said than done. I will only believe when I see it happening. Besides all this, Su-30s RCS is so huge that it may not be an effective platform for electronic attack and stand off jamming. IADS like S-400 or even Chinese versions of IADS which is also with TSP, Erieye AWACS will see MKI coming from a long distance. Hence support jammer would have to do a lot of work (changing energy requirements, effective radiated power etc) to be effective work at very long distance compared to if the same was installed on Rafale or Tejas Mk2 or even Growler NG.
Like the Growler , the basic Su 30 airframe would need to be modified suitably for an electronic attack version., i do not think just adding pods is going to work
Karan M
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

Sumeet wrote:
ldev wrote:According to Flightglobal....
This is easier said than done. I will only believe when I see it happening. Besides all this, Su-30s RCS is so huge that it may not be an effective platform for electronic attack and stand off jamming. IADS like S-400 or even Chinese versions of IADS which is also with TSP, Erieye AWACS will see MKI coming from a long distance. Hence support jammer would have to do a lot of work (changing energy requirements, effective radiated power etc) to be effective work at very long distance compared to if the same was installed on Rafale or Tejas Mk2 or even Growler NG.
The Su-30 is already used for support jamming with the combination of SAP-518 and SAP-14. These are huge, highly capable pods.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:The Su-30 is already used for support jamming with the combination of SAP-518 and SAP-14. These are huge, highly capable pods.
Used to great effect on 27 Feb 2019 :mrgreen:
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

Sumeet wrote:All this is speculation.

Indian RWR, Radar Russian and EW support system Israeli ---> Please recall that we have been down that road and landed up with unsolvable problems of incompatibility due to RF interference of one of these components with another component.

There can't be a desi growler MKI till India can develop indigenous capability for R&D and production of all these three components. At the best we can tweak our own next gen Digital RWR and Uttam AESA radar variant to be compatible with Scorpius support jammer. But then I don't see a UTTAM radar for MKI coming out anytime soon.
There are two proposals in play. One is a limited induction of a mostly Russian fit dedicated for Higher end EW. Whereas the Su-30s are also to get CASDIC ie Dare, SPJ pods. CASDIC is also working on low band jammers, so even those might find their way to the Su-30 in due time making an all Indian Growler type suite possible.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

KaranM why can't IAF come up with a categorical statement even if it is to their favorite reporters on what the SU-30 MKI upgrade will be like?

The Super Sukhoi won't materialize after the Ukraine War as Russia will concentrate on rearming.
That means it's the DRDO upgrade.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

ramana wrote:KaranM why can't IAF come up with a categorical statement even if it is to their favorite reporters on what the SU-30 MKI upgrade will be like?

The Super Sukhoi won't materialize after the Ukraine War as Russia will concentrate on rearming.
That means it's the DRDO upgrade.
I agree with you. And my concern is the IAF is so obsessed with the MRFA it's dragging its feet on the Su-30 upgrade.

By now the upgrade proposal should have been firmed up and Uttam variant funded. But no news on that front.

Need PMO/RM to crack the whip and get things moving.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

The new CDS job is to prepare for war not hangar queens or air show specials.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

^^
When it comes
If the Su is not obsolete by then!
kit
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Karan M wrote:
Sumeet wrote:All this is speculation.

Indian RWR, Radar Russian and EW support system Israeli ---> Please recall that we have been down that road and landed up with unsolvable problems of incompatibility due to RF interference of one of these components with another component.

There can't be a desi growler MKI till India can develop indigenous capability for R&D and production of all these three components. At the best we can tweak our own next gen Digital RWR and Uttam AESA radar variant to be compatible with Scorpius support jammer. But then I don't see a UTTAM radar for MKI coming out anytime soon.
There are two proposals in play. One is a limited induction of a mostly Russian fit dedicated for Higher end EW. Whereas the Su-30s are also to get CASDIC ie Dare, SPJ pods. CASDIC is also working on low band jammers, so even those might find their way to the Su-30 in due time making an all Indian Growler type suite possible.

A desi Su MKI "growler" would need more than capable EW pods ., this is a cross off of the Netra with Rambha

Image
Karan M
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

ramana wrote:The new CDS job is to prepare for war not hangar queens or air show specials.
Sadly, recent IAF decision making, under the new CAS, in many areas leaves a lot to be desired. The impetus that was underway under the prior chief seems to be lost. The only real focus seems to be on harping on MRFA and getting the GOI to sign on that dotted line.

Meanwhile, the Uttam program, which can be funded to make a Su-30 variant, and advanced in marks or batches, is being ignored. IAF was busy shopping Russian, but now, as you pointed out, that option is off the table given a bunch of reasons. One can only hope the CDS/PMO/RM now accelerate a desi Su-30 upgrade and with at least a primary batch of 2-3 squadrons funded. Otherwise the IAF will do nothing but keep pushing the MRFA file claiming the MRFA has capabilities the Su-30 currently lacks, like an AESA radar, not mentioning the fact that an Uttam upgrade is available and can be developed if the IAF supports it.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

I would say Mod/PMO should take a lead and have super Sukhoi started with/without Iaf help. The whole package will be ready and this cas will be retired by then (if not fired before that). Let’s pick the next Cas solely based on its commitment to aatma nirbhar in general and super Sukhoi implementation in particular.
The difference from current approach is That till iaf does not approve it, it does not allocate budget or define Staff requirement in the later approach the budget is through Mod/PMO and staff requirement should be some office in iaf but not necessarily the chief. I have a suspicion that su30mki super upgrade is already defined.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

I think there is no announcement because
a) we don't seem to be asking for a new engine (too expensive? cost & time-wise)
and
b) subsystems necessary are all under development right now.

Perhaps it will be announced when they're closer to reality. And we know they're working on all the subsystems that will go on an upgraded jet like radar, ew suite, irst and displays and avionics.

Clutching at straws? :)
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

fanne wrote:I would say Mod/PMO should take a lead and have super Sukhoi started with/without Iaf help. The whole package will be ready and this cas will be retired by then (if not fired before that). Let’s pick the next Cas solely based on its commitment to aatma nirbhar in general and super Sukhoi implementation in particular.
The difference from current approach is That till iaf does not approve it, it does not allocate budget or define Staff requirement in the later approach the budget is through Mod/PMO and staff requirement should be some office in iaf but not necessarily the chief. I have a suspicion that su30mki super upgrade is already defined.
One cannot do all this without IAF involvement. And all said and done, the CAS is the CAS - his position, his stature commands automatic respect. He has his force's operational needs to consider as well. Asking him to be fired etc is not done.
All we want though is the IAF to move on to pragmatic choices vs hoping for a budget breaking MRFA which will take a lot of time (justifiably) to materialize.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

So this is back on.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Reports of progress in Indo-Russia talks for 12 additional Su-30MKI fighters.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Upgraded Flankers with the Uttam AESA, a new datalink, a new Indian EW suite, new cockpit and enhanced range of A2A and A2G weaponry, wet fueling, would come closest to the Strike Eagle.

https://twitter.com/raflanker/status/15 ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> New IRST and probably pod based MAWS too.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> The latter yes, former will take time. Till then we anyhow have the Litening.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> What does IRST have to do with Litening?

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> It has an air to air mode as well.
----------------------
Rafael's Litening pod to gain air-to-air capability

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> You can cue the Litening via other sensors or vice versa. Auto-lock targets and designate it for an AAM etc. Has both wide and narrow FOV.

https://twitter.com/sarthak_asm/status/ ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> IRST + IR sensor of missile + RWR + laser range finder can provide a track to A2A missiles.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

India received "I" version of the Litening G4, first announced in 2015 and deliveries from 2016. That had air-to-air IRST mode.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Anything in open source for the Sukhoi Uttam AESA? Should have interesting capabilities.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:Anything in open source for the Sukhoi Uttam AESA? Should have interesting capabilities.
Some links for you....

https://ne-np.facebook.com/DefenceNowNe ... 664795423/

https://twitter.com/aeroresearch1/statu ... 4704501761

http://defensenews-alert.blogspot.com/2 ... r-for.html
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

thanks Admiral :D
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/HellHoundIN/status/ ... qHoGxHa6Cw ---> Parallax Labs is currently working with @HALHQBLR to build a Virtual Reality & AI powered training solution for operation & maintenance of Su-30MKI. The Rafale (pic 2 @livefist) & the F-35 (pics 3,4) have similar solutions. Can't wait for Tejas, AMCA et al to have this #75AIDefProducts.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Larry Walker »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VxG2oiIWs8

10 SU30-MKI vs 10 J11 DCS - outcome is total loss for both sides.
So does it mean that this is where the Chinese MIC will be a determining factor in defeating us in a total war ?
I am afraid at this point that PRC MIC can out-build our HAL anytime by multiple factors.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Larry Walker wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VxG2oiIWs8

10 SU30-MKI vs 10 J11 DCS - outcome is total loss for both sides.
So does it mean that this is where the Chinese MIC will be a determining factor in defeating us in a total war ?
I am afraid at this point that PRC MIC can out-build our HAL anytime by multiple factors.
Video games do not translate into reality.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/kartachar/status/15 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> NAL has completed Ground Vibration Testing (GVT) & GVT based flutter analysis on Su-30MKI fighter for Derby BVRAAM integration. Clearance provided for captive trials as part of DOS-30 (Derby on Su30) program. Total 20 different stores configurations were considered for clearance.

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---. The news is more than a year old, it's from the 2020-2021 NAL Director's report. Here is an image of the Derby on the Su-30MKI, probably during it's integration. (I do not know who has taken this image. If someone knows, please mention them).

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... JZAuXLILPw ---> Total of five hardpoints on Su-30 MKIs to be certified for BrahMos-NG.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

Why is there no serial number on the Su-30MKI with Derby during trials? Is it a dedicated ASTE aircraft?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by shaun »

Serial numbers were not supposed to be posted
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... JZAuXLILPw ---> Total of five hardpoints on Su-30MKIs to be certified for BrahMos-NG.
So Su-30MKIs can carry ?five or 3 Brahmos-NGs of 290 km (?) range.
Last edited by kit on 27 Jul 2022 18:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

JTull wrote:Why is there no serial number on the Su-30MKI with Derby during trials? Is it a dedicated ASTE aircraft?
With the advent of many aviation photographers springing up all over India, Air HQ made the request to not post serial numbers.

Multiple photographs of fighters (with serial numbers) taking off from air bases can give a serial number tracker a fairly good idea of the strength of airframes on that base. Not a good data metric to have out in the open.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... JZAuXLILPw ---> Total of five hardpoints on Su-30MKIs to be certified for BrahMos-NG.
So Su-30MKIs can carry five Brahmos-NGs of 290 km (?) range. A squadron of Su-30MKIs carrying 5 BrahMos each should be enough to blow up any target to atoms.
BrahMos-NG, SAAW...I pity the PAF :lol:
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

These are reportedly CGI, but they look really nice!

https://twitter.com/Neoshot_1/status/15 ... LcXoRYFbiA ---> #AazadiKaAmritMahotsav

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... _GkYIUP06g ---> Upgraded Su-30MKIs to remain in service till late 2040s as a mothership for Wingman drones and Swarm drones.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... y-9MtAGWzg ---> On the topic on integration of western missiles on the MKI, here is what appears to be the integration of the ASRAAM missile on the Su-30MKI, I believe (judging by the relative position of the pylon, roundel and control surface).

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... y-9MtAGWzg ---> And before you ask, there is nothing I can do about the atrocious image resolution. It's cropped from a larger image.

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... y-9MtAGWzg ---> IAF's Su-30 MKI fleet has completed 3 years without a major accident (CAT-1) even though thousands of sorties were flown in this period by the 262 strong fleet.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... y-9MtAGWzg ---> The Su-30MKI upgrade program is still on *track* (Indian-made Upgrade).

~ Next Gen RWR
~ New Jamming Pods
~ ASPJ
~ Feasibility Study for Integration of New EW Suite as well

Image

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... Bs5i-s2rCA ---> Head of Russia's aerospace giant UAC says he will visit India soon for talks on Su-30 MKI upgrade program. Russia also interested in acquiring Indian avionics for Russia's civilian airliner MC-21.
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