Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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SidSoma
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by SidSoma »

ramana wrote:Sid Soma do they tell how much power is required for 1800 and 2400 modules?
What about geometry?
Ramana Sir,

There is no data on the absolute numbers. What is said is
"Although the Nose of the SU-30 can accommodate a radar with 2400 modules, it may be limited to 1800 modules due to shortage of power from the AL-31FP engines. However the final configuration will be known when the radar will start testing 2024 (added during edit)"
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

ramana wrote:Sid Soma do they tell how much power is required for 1800 and 2400 modules?
What about geometry?
Electrical power available is just one concern. Thermal management is just as important and a similar constraint. Anyway we don't have an engine upgrade planned. Every single fighter has had engine upgrades during its lifetime. Only we don't have an upgrade path when we're going to tack on so many electronic aids onto the fighter with ever-increasing power demand. Even the Rolls Royce chief was elaborating on this exact thing when he was here trying to sell their engine for the amca program.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I don't know anything about the power requirements of Uttam Mk3. Nor do I know anything about the power generation ability of the AL 31.

Having said that. I have a few questions.

How do we know that the Uttam Mk3's 2400 TRF power requirements will not be met by the onboard power generation capacity of the AL31? If the 2400 TRF Uttam Mk3 dosent exist as of this moment.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Sidsoma thanks for the critical information on engine power limiting the number of modules.

Prasad By thermal management how much heat in KW needs to be dissipated?
RR chief can go pound sand.

GOI knows what needs to be done.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Pratyush wrote:I don't know anything about the power requirements of Uttam Mk3. Nor do I know anything about the power generation ability of the AL 31.

Having said that. I have a few questions.

How do we know that the Uttam Mk3's 2400 TRF power requirements will not be met by the onboard power generation capacity of the AL31? If the 2400 TRF Uttam Mk3 doesn't exist as of this moment.

Systems design. Glad they are looking at the entire system.

Possibly might need a new wiring harness too for the power.
Pratyush look at the chain backward.
Radar 2400 module, cables, alternators, engine capability.

Has anyone seen a cut-away drawing of the Su-30MKI?
Flight used to post cutaways of classic and popular aircraft.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

ramana wrote:Sidsoma thanks for the critical information on engine power limiting the number of modules.

Prasad By thermal management how much heat in KW needs to be dissipated?
RR chief can go pound sand.

GOI knows what needs to be done.
No numbers. TRMM count is determined by both - power available and heat dissipation. Greater the number, greater the heat to be removed. Even if power is available, if your heat exchangers can't handle it, there's no point having a bigger array.

The problem is that IAF is kinda stuck there. New engine based on the su-57 engine was to have come by now. We don't know if that thing works. All other MKI upgrade subsystems will be ready only in the future - radar, das/maws, spj (soonest). So an upgrade cannot be started despite all of us wanting it. Only the Astra Mk-1 & Rudram-1 & Brahmos are ready right now. Other munitions need more time including Astra Mk-2 & the SFDR based missile and other Rudram variants. Not to mention the LRGB & Gautam & Gaurav. If a new engine is coming up that will make the MKI more formidable.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Prasad wrote:
ramana wrote:Sidsoma thanks for the critical information on engine power limiting the number of modules.

Prasad By thermal management how much heat in KW needs to be dissipated?
RR chief can go pound sand.

GOI knows what needs to be done.
No numbers. TRMM count is determined by both - power available and heat dissipation. Greater the number, greater the heat to be removed. Even if power is available, if your heat exchangers can't handle it, there's no point having a bigger array.

The problem is that IAF is kinda stuck there. New engine based on the su-57 engine was to have come by now. We don't know if that thing works. All other MKI upgrade subsystems will be ready only in the future - radar, das/maws, spj (soonest). So an upgrade cannot be started despite all of us wanting it. Only the Astra Mk-1 & Rudram-1 & Brahmos are ready right now. Other munitions need more time including Astra Mk-2 & the SFDR based missile and other Rudram variants. Not to mention the LRGB & Gautam & Gaurav. If a new engine is coming up that will make the MKI more formidable.
The interim Su-57 engine (same as SU-35) - AL 41/117S IIRC should provide a very decent upgrade to the MKI in terms of engine power. So there is something available although the izd30 (what was supposed to get on the finished su-57) is still to come. Of course, with the Ukraine situation who know what is available and what can be sourced.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

Not to mention the Russians trying to price gouge us already on the extra MKIs we wanted to order. So a new engine will be expensive. We should re-engine the fleet but figure out a cost-effective price.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/02 ... e-upgrade/

The total amount to be charged by the Russians for the super Sukhoi was 6 billion dollars. This included the Al41 engine.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by mody »

The chinese have upgraded their copies of the Al-31 engines to 150KN thrust. The Al-31 engines were designed in the 90s and surely it should be possible to upgrade the engines.

The best way forward should be to add the Su-30MKI engine upgrade to the new engines for the AMCA program. This would sweeten the plot for the foreign vendor, as number of engines is huge.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by SidSoma »

mody wrote: The best way forward should be to add the Su-30MKI engine upgrade to the new engines for the AMCA program. This would sweeten the plot for the foreign vendor, as number of engines is huge.
Mody sir, if this RFP come out .... we may not live to see the final selection (ala MMRCA). Best not to link and if really required Do it in house like the chinese or push the Russians
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ashishvikas »

Kunal Biswas:

My Poster On SU30MKI Integrated With I-Derby ER And Will Be Part Of Other Indian Airforce Front line Fighters Along Tejas Series And Mirage 2000

https://twitter.com/Kunal_Biswas707/sta ... hqXOQ&s=19

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

In the aviation world, you have enthusiasts with interesting hobbies. Collecting squadron patches is one such hobby. And one individual is into collecting patches of Rambha squadrons in the IAF. Interesting picture.

1) The patch on the top row, second from right. You Radiate, We Eliminate :twisted:

2) The patch on the bottom row, first from left. Astra Pioneers* :) Another patch of the same squadron is on the top row in the middle.

3) The patch on top row, second from left is No 2 Winged Arrows.

4) The patch on top row at extreme right is No 24 Hunting Hawks which is the first unit to operate the Su-30 and that patch is aptly named Home of the Flanker. Re-Raised in 1997 at Lohegaon AFS with the Su-30K and converted to the Su-30MKI in 2006. Now stationed at Bareilly AFS.

5) A famous IAF squadron is the patch on the bottom row, second from right. That is No 20 Lightnings based at Lohegaon AFS. Admiral Arun Prakash, former Navy Chief served in this squadron during the 1971 Indo-Pak War.

6) The patch on bottom row at extreme right is No 220 Desert Tigers. This is the unit in Japan right now for Exercise Veer Guardian 2023.

* No 15 Sqn, Flying Lances is the first IAF unit to adopt the Astra Mk1 BVRAAM. The tactics they developed at this squadron is used as the syllabus for all other IAF fighter squadrons that use this missile. No 15 is also home to Avenger 1 and 2 ---> the pair of Rambhas that held the fort on 27 Feb 2019 against eight PAF F-16s and still came out on top. They are aptly nicknamed AMRAAM Dodgers for that feat. The BVR tactics those Rambha pilots displayed on that day, is nothing short of spectacular.

https://twitter.com/REMCAT18/status/161 ... 28/photo/1 --->

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Look down/Shoot down capability of I Derby will help in taking care of cruise missiles.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

For the IAF, getting all Aircraft compatible with all Missiles makes sense, if SU 30 MKI can I-Derby it does not mean Astra 1 Bad or lacks any capability.

In war time Aircraft are moved across Bases, Missiles get used across sorties, at such times it is best that every available missile at any base can be put on the Aircraft which needs to go for a sortie.

That's why IAF used to Put R-73, R-27 on M-2000's. SO wherever we have an Indian Mission computer, we will try and mate the Aircraft will all Missiles and ordinance in the IAF inventory, for Rafale and M-2000, MIg-29 etc we will need French/Russian Help. Tejas/ Jaguar/ SU-30 MKI, IAF will get almost all of its Inventory Integrated.

If possible Logistics is even improved when some missiles like the R-27, R-73, Python-V, IDerby can be even shared with SAM Batteries.

MIg-21 Bison, nothing will be integrated, IAF will just use them till they retire.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cyrano »

How can someone outside IAF collect such patches ?
Whats the story of the rectangular patch you omitted Rakesh ji ? ;)
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by mody »

Aditya_V wrote:For the IAF, getting all Aircraft compatible with all Missiles makes sense, if SU 30 MKI can I-Derby it does not mean Astra 1 Bad or lacks any capability.

In war time Aircraft are moved across Bases, Missiles get used across sorties, at such times it is best that every available missile at any base can be put on the Aircraft which needs to go for a sortie.

That's why IAF used to Put R-73, R-27 on M-2000's. SO wherever we have an Indian Mission computer, we will try and mate the Aircraft will all Missiles and ordinance in the IAF inventory, for Rafale and M-2000, MIg-29 etc we will need French/Russian Help. Tejas/ Jaguar/ SU-30 MKI, IAF will get almost all of its Inventory Integrated.

If possible Logistics is even improved when some missiles like the R-27, R-73, Python-V, IDerby can be even shared with SAM Batteries.

MIg-21 Bison, nothing will be integrated, IAF will just use them till they retire.
Only the R-73E has been integrated on the M-2000's, not the R-27. The MICA-RF has replaced the Super-530D, as the standard BVR missiles for the Mirage. The I-Derby has been procured in small numbers only and as the integration of the Astra on the Tejas is ongoing, it doesn't make sense to procure the I-Derby-ER in larger numbers. Any additional orders, will simply eat into the orders for the Astra MK-1 and MK-2.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:How can someone outside IAF collect such patches ?
Whats the story of the rectangular patch you omitted Rakesh ji ? ;)
Global aviation enthusiasts indeed share patches that they get from their respective home air forces.

So when someone like an Indian aviation photographer (Aatish Pillai, Angad Singh, Praneeth Franklin, etc) visits the squadron for a photo shoot (or even during events/shows like the upcoming Aero India exhibition), they subsequently meet the pilots of the squadron. The pilots or even the CO of the squadron hands out patches of the unit as a memento. Those patches are circulated and exchanged among the global aviation enthusiast community. Just like trading cards in professional sports, but this is patches.

See the first picture in this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7096&start=480#p2576170

This Rambha pilot is handing over his squadron patch to his Japanese counterpart during Ex Veer Guardian 2023. The pilot is from No 220 Desert Tigers, a Su-30MKI squadron based out of Halwara AFS. And fighter pilots do this during joint air exercises. They will wear that patch when flying their aircraft during the exercise. So a Japanese fighter pilot will fly his F-2 or F-15J with the Desert Tigers patch on his shoulder/chest and the IAF pilot will do the same with a JSDAF squadron insignia. Fosters camaraderie and brotherhood during such events.

I mentioned the triangle patch (but probably was not clear). It is listed under No2 in my post.

P.S. Visit a Navy ship and you may get a baseball hat with the ship's name, her crest and her motto inscribed on it, if you are lucky. I visited INS Delhi and had chai, but did not have that luck :) It is standard memento for VVIP guests like the PM or Raksha Mantri. See this picture ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7855&start=1040#p2575974
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

If you meet any of these guys walking around during any event and ask to photograph their patch, chances are they might just give you the patch. It isn't some super secret item that they guard ferociously.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Prasad wrote:If you meet any of these guys walking around during any event and ask to photograph their patch, chances are they might just give you the patch. It isn't some super secret item that they guard ferociously.
Exactly! You will definitely know :)
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by VishalJ »

Watercanon salute for Rambha in Japan

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by VishalJ »

Rakesh wrote:
Cyrano wrote:How can someone outside IAF collect such patches ?
Whats the story of the rectangular patch you omitted Rakesh ji ? ;)
Global aviation enthusiasts indeed share patches that they get from their respective home air forces.

So when someone like an Indian aviation photographer (Aatish Pillai, Angad Singh, Praneeth Franklin, etc) visits the squadron for a photo shoot (or even during events/shows like the upcoming Aero India exhibition), they subsequently meet the pilots of the squadron. The pilots or even the CO of the squadron hands out patches of the unit as a memento.
I see the admin recognises me only as an etc :(

@Cyrano: here's the loot from Ambala from my shoot of the induction: https://www.instagram.com/p/CHQjrLPlf5m/
The folks on base guided Angad and I to the local supplier who stocks these.

Also, I took several from various squadron shops across many bases I visited last year while shooting with the Vayusena.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

VishalJ wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Global aviation enthusiasts indeed share patches that they get from their respective home air forces.

So when someone like an Indian aviation photographer (Aatish Pillai, Angad Singh, Praneeth Franklin, etc) visits the squadron for a photo shoot (or even during events/shows like the upcoming Aero India exhibition), they subsequently meet the pilots of the squadron. The pilots or even the CO of the squadron hands out patches of the unit as a memento.
I see the admin recognises me only as an etc :(
Oops. Sorry Saar! :oops: :)

That Golden Arrows patch in the link you posted is ooh-la-la! Just gorgeous. You are lucky!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by VishalJ »

Lucky are my Mumbai planespotter friends and other avgeek mitra for whom I bought that box full of patches and other merchandise you can see in the 8th image :x
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Wow ! Thanks for the explanations. I can only stew in envy :)
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Kersi »

Rakesh wrote: I visited INS Delhi and had chai, but did not have that luck :) See this picture ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7855&start=1040#p2575974
During the "official ? " BR visit to INS Delhi, way back in 2000, we got sumptous snacks !!!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Prasad wrote:If you meet any of these guys walking around during any event and ask to photograph their patch, chances are they might just give you the patch. It isn't some super secret item that they guard ferociously.
I have an experience that counters this. Fortunately it ended well.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Prasar Bharati. Needs editing.

Air Force to upgrade Sukhoi jets for 4 billion dollar to increase its capacity

The Indian Air Force needs 4 billion dollar to upgrade its fighter aircraft Sukhoi fleet. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has already proposed the upgrade program, which is expected to be approved by the government soon. As a HAL nodal agency, about 150 fighter aircraft will upgrade fifth generation fighter jet as ‘Super Sukhoi’, after which the Indian Air Force’s fighter capacity will increase manifold, reported HS.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Indian Air Force together will finalise equipment and systems for Sukhoi-30 MKI, after which 150 aircraft will be upgraded. The ‘Super Sukhoi’ program has been approved by Russia, as Sukhoi-30 MKIs are joint products of India and Russia. Many components and parts are to come from Russia to upgrade Sukhoi. ‘Super Sukhoi will include a modern cockpit. The major part of the upgrade also includes avionics and sensors, making 150 fighter aircraft technically to be compatible with fifth-generation fifty jets.

HAL will develop Uttam MK3 AESA Fire Control radar in the proposed ‘Super Sukhoi’ program. HAL will begin testing several components to be included in the Super Sukhoi program in 2024. The prototypes to be launched for the Super Sukhoi program will include new systems in the steps and can start with full-scale upgradation 2027-28. It has become necessary to upgrade the Air Force Sukhoi-30 MKI to keep it relevant in the future air war because its software is deteriorating very fast. The Air Force hopes that the first Super Sukhoi aircraft will be ready by 2025.

The ‘Super Sukhoi’, jointly developed with the Russian Sukhoi company, will be a multi-goddess, which may dominate the neighbouring countries and the entire Indian Ocean region. The feathers of this aircraft will be made of carbon fibre. The cockpit and all systems will be improved in the modernsation program. It has been designed in such a way that it will be easy for pilots to shift to fifth-generation fighter aircraft. Along with this, the aircraft will be modernized in collaboration with the BrahMos Air-to-ground supersonic cruise missile program. Now the Indian Ministry of Defense and Russian Company will finalize the divided work under the modernization program, after which it will be decided which work will be in India and which work in Russia.

‘Super Sukhoi’ will also have advanced stealth characteristics. Super Sukhoi may also be equipped with infrared-homing extended-range versions of other long-range missiles. In addition to medium distance missiles, active radar homing medium range 100 km. Along with this, other 80 km medium-range missiles can also be added. Super Sukhoi will upgrade electronics and Super Sukhoi will have more weapons loads. Super Sukhoi will have the same engine as FGFA, which will increase its lifetime. The Super Sukhoi program will not be covered under the offset rules of the defence procurement process of the Indian Ministry of Defense, as this upgradation project is a part of the previous Sukhoi-30 MKI Agreement.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

From lurker:

To summarise:
- No offsets
- 150 to be upgraded not 272
- 2025 first prototype hopes
- work packages Rus and Indian not finalized yet (which means timeline will be delayed)
- new engine (good)
- Uttam mk3 radar (fantastic)
- will carry Brahmos (good, earlier proposals talked about 50 aircrafts)
- carbon fibre feathers (??)
- new cockpit, new systems (as expected)
- 4B$
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by RajaRudra »

With Ukraine situation in the mind.

Does Russia have enough capacity to supply the new engines and other component? Hope we are not going to re-run friendly admiral gorskhov.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The AL31 and AL 41 are completely indigenous products from the USSR and Russia respectively.

So new engines are not going to be an issue.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:From lurker:

To summarise:
- No offsets
- 150 to be upgraded not 272
- 2025 first prototype hopes
- work packages Rus and Indian not finalized yet (which means timeline will be delayed)
- new engine (good)
- Uttam mk3 radar (fantastic)
- will carry Brahmos (good, earlier proposals talked about 50 aircrafts)
- carbon fibre feathers (??)
- new cockpit, new systems (as expected)
- 4B$
* Carbon fibre feathers = will likely be the wings, canards, etc. Weird terminology to use though, feathers.

* The new engine will be the AL-41. But hopefully - in the future - we will know which version, as there are two ---> AL-41F1 (izdeliye 117) and AL-41F1S (izdeliye 117S).

* Upscaling the Uttam AESA is fantastic news. The Rambha will become free. Rudram, Astra, SFDR, the sky is the limit! The IRST is also being replaced with an updated Indian model.

* 150 out of 272 will mean around 7 - 8 squadrons of the Super Sukhoi will be in service. Unsure if they will phase out the remaining 122 airframes (6+ squadrons) OR will flog them of their end of service life OR ground them and use them as spares.

* Reducing six squadrons out of the fleet, will open the door for acquiring other combat aircraft to make up for the shortfall.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

The remaining aircraft with less useful life will get appropriate upgrades.

Won't be allowed to scrap like past aircraft.

These are national assets.
Rakesh,
Key is to understand the RCS of the PLAAF JL-20.
Needs more power to detect which means a better engine.
So these super SU-30MKIs are for LAC use.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by SidSoma »

ramana wrote: So these super SU-30MKIs are for LAC use.
With the decline of PAK and hence PAF and the threat from the western front, will this mean that most bases from the west will house lesser squadn and these will be moved to the east. We should see some new bases pop in east front also.... currently only roads are being worked on at a furious pace. May be existing air bases are being spruced up. Would like to see some new ones pop up also.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by mody »

Composite wings (feathers?) for the Su-30MKI is new. This has never been reported earlier. This would change the weight of the aircraft and also perhaps the center of gravity and would require a lot more flight testing, then only a radar+avionics+EW upgrade and would require certification by Sukhoi. This would also increase the time required for the upgrade, not just for the initial certification, but also later on a per aircraft basis.
However, this would probably reduce the RCS and will definitely reduce the weight of the aircraft.

Also, a reduction in RCS is also mentioned. Does the Su-35 have composite wings?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

I doubt the entire carbon composite wing is being considered. Perhaps just the moving control surfaces.
This may not be for radar cross-section as the air-intake is a bigger loud-speaker, and the exhaust's IR signature is massive too. I suspect this may to reduce the maintenance frequency of the moving surfaces. We have good experience from LCA now. Actuators may also become desi now.

Uttam will the biggest win! Midhani improvements to engine components, updated mission computer, fleetwise Brahmos, are all big wins.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Hope we get the R37M as well, H-6 and other big slow lumbering birds which light up like Deepawali fireworks on the Radar scope would be juicy targets.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Those composite "feathers" could be "canards" on the MKI?
(Canard means duck in French, "plans canard" means canard control surfaces)
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