Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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Manish_Sharma
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Since we are buying 50 upgraded Su 30MKIs + 21 GrowlerMKIs then why not go for 71 PAK FAs instead?

With more powerful al41 engines and internal weapon bays would it not be better?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by titash »

Cybaru wrote:The 21 Mig29 will be the least useful investment at the moment (maintenance post 2035 will be headache) . Ideally 50 Rambha + 54 Raffles + 20 more Mk1A will set us up for future for a long time. All three are existing type that have long support plans in IAF.
Why do you say that? We have 60 odd MiG-29s in 3 squadrons. 40 odd Mig-29s with the navy. Throw in 20 more and we have a fleet of 120 odd MiG-29s which is one of the largest fleets worldwide. The aircraft is still in production in Russia...their navy recently picked up 24 MiG-29Ks. 1500 units have been manufactured and sold worldwide so there's a large spares pool available. The aircraft has twin engines, high thrust-to-weight, (now) a decent radar - perhaps AESA in the future, a decent EW suit (D29 internal for the IAF / podded ELTA for the navy), air-to-air refueling, and can fire the latest Russian BVR missiles + Astra in the future (the navy is getting 50 of the 250 Astra missiles recently ordered)

It's a proven platform that has shown consistent utility; the high thrust-to-weight has proven useful in Ladakh and will do so over Tibet if needed

Post 2035, there will be masses of Tejas Mk-1/1A/2, AMCA, ORCA/TEDBF available as replacements.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Since we are buying 50 upgraded Su 30MKIs + 21 GrowlerMKIs then why not go for 71 PAK FAs instead?

With more powerful al41 engines and internal weapon bays would it not be better?
Please Manish, no PAK-FA or Checkmate. Better off with our own program - AMCA.

Fourth generation aircraft like the Rambha will be fairly potent - with upgrade - well into the next decade. The SS upgrade will be just the first in the series of upgrades. Eventually, some future variant of Uttam will also land up. More of the same is much easier on the exchequer and much quicker to integrate tactically into the force structure.

I am unsure of where this 50 + 21 number is coming from. We don't know if the 12 replacement Rambhas is part of the 50 Rambha offer. Or will it be 12 + 50 more. That remains to be seen.

Added Later ---> I am going to venture a guess here and state that the 12 will be part of the 50 order. 12 attrition replacements will leave a balance of 38 aircraft. Roughly 19 aircraft per squadron, with 1 or 2 aircraft heading to institutions like ASTE and TACDE.

So two Growlerski units.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

I dont know why people keep on dishing Mig29? Maculay education? where anything Indian is bad, anything far and west of it good (So Russian maal is average)?

1. Mig 29 - aerodynamically is still a far better plane than M2K, F-16,dare I say LCAMK1 and MK1a. Of course like all 4th gen aircraft it is non stealthy.
2. It's biggest drawback were 1) avionics 2)engine 3)maintenance
3. We are licence producing it's engine now, heavily upgraded its avionics (with Indian + western + russian kits) and just yesterday signed deal for ToT for spare parts.
4. It is cheap and can be had way before 84th LCA rolls out (even the current LCA roll out is constantly missing deadline, the fastest that HAL has produced is grand total of 6 LCA per year).
5.Due to its TWR of >1 (only IAF plane), it is doing great at high altitude. It is the only fighter seen parked in Thoise@3K meter elevation. Since LCA and other planes have flown from Ladhak, they can also perhaps manage Thoise.
6. With upgrades and all it will cost less or as much as LCA, adding to numbers that we desperately need.
7. I would argue that Russia itself will be using Mig 29 for the next 20 years, so spares should not be a problem (unlike Mig 21/23/23 were retired from Russian service decades before we ended flying them resulting in severe spare crash).

I do not see Mig 29 as a bad buy. Perhaps if there are more frames that we can upgrade, it would be good, but strictly using Indian avionics (derived from LCAmk1a, mk2). We have IN 54 (plus possibility of some 20 more or so for Vikrant) and IAF 90 - around 140 planes, we should invest in spares, overhaul etc. Having some more cheap (if available) second hand will be handy at times when numbers are low. All of these planes can hold easily against what PAF can throw, and almost all of PLAAF except it's 5th gen.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by nam »

It is quite curious to see the gymnatics around Su30, Mig29, M2K but no extra LCA MK1/A versions are been bought. Cannot say that HAL is at fault, because those Su30 will be coming from HAL itself!

Looks like IAF is indirectly accepting that it screwed up LCA's ASQR. They went with "Mig21 replacement ASQR"-- with Pak in mind and ignored Chinese threat due to "peace & tranquility" business.

Now IAF wants fighters with longer legs, as they may need to come in from deep area of the country. Given the threat from Chini BM & rocket firepower, which could severely degrade frontline airbases, this has become a critical need. With no money to field Khan style army of refuellers, we have no choice but to go for long legs.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Doubt this mki chit chat was serious, I'm guessing that the talk of 50 MKI is just hopium being given to the russkis at a time when they could use some support. That way they can talk about their influence internationally in front of the Americans faces. At the same time, India can simply deny this behind closed doors with the US this reducing CAATSA type concerns. India is using it's market and money to gain some leverage, all good.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Doubt this mki chit chat was serious, I'm guessing that the talk of 50 MKI is just hopium being given to the russkis at a time when they could use some support. That way they can talk about their influence internationally in front of the Americans faces. At the same time, India can simply deny this behind closed doors with the US this reducing CAATSA type concerns. India is using it's market and money to gain some leverage, all good.
HAL will also push this to keep the line going, till the SS upgrade is ready to take off.

Once the SS is underway, the line will transition to that. But till then, HAL will have to keep the line active.

Lets see how this plays out.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

:mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/146 ... 00801?s=20 ---> Given the success registered by the indigenous UTTAM AESA FCR programme, no great leap of imagination is required to see that the IAF's Su-30 MKIs may get a larger derivative of the same in the near future.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/146 ... 19075?s=20 ---> Continued license production of the Su-30 MKI was always on the cards. I expect it to happen given the need to buffer up the IAF's squadron strength. The main question probably will be whether they'll be built from CKD kits or from the raw material stage.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/146 ... 38144?s=20 ----> However, the MKI will likely be the last Russian fighter to see squadron service in the IAF, unless:

1. Russia agrees to give 'everything' with the Su-57/FGFA.

2. India sees value in the PAK DP project, with Russia willing to share source code.

Su-75 has no chance.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Doubt this mki chit chat was serious, I'm guessing that the talk of 50 MKI is just hopium being given to the russkis at a time when they could use some support. That way they can talk about their influence internationally in front of the Americans faces. At the same time, India can simply deny this behind closed doors with the US this reducing CAATSA type concerns. India is using it's market and money to gain some leverage, all good.
HAL will also push this to keep the line going, till the SS upgrade is ready to take off.

Once the SS is underway, the line will transition to that. But till then, HAL will have to keep the line active.

Lets see how this plays out.
If the tweet below is true, then I stand corrected. The Rambha line is actually inactive as of Feb this year. If this is true, then there will be even more pressure on the IAF from HAL.

https://twitter.com/JanesINTEL/status/1 ... 52257?s=20 ---> HAL completes licensed production of final two of 222 Su-30MKI fighters for IAF
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

This is *BIG* news. Next step, soybeans :lol:

https://twitter.com/PatilSushmit/status ... 08227?s=20 ---> Russia and India have abandoned the US dollar in mutual settlements. All payments are made in rubles and rupees, the director general of Rosoboronexport said on Tuesday.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:
Rakesh wrote: HAL will also push this to keep the line going, till the SS upgrade is ready to take off.

Once the SS is underway, the line will transition to that. But till then, HAL will have to keep the line active.

Lets see how this plays out.
If the tweet below is true, then I stand corrected. The Rambha line is actually inactive as of Feb this year. If this is true, then there will be even more pressure on the IAF from HAL.

https://twitter.com/JanesINTEL/status/1 ... 52257?s=20 ---> HAL completes licensed production of final two of 222 Su-30MKI fighters for IAF
These are good points that completely slipped my mind.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by V_Raman »

HAL pushing for a extra squadron of MKI due to the current production coming to an end is old news. This has been discussed in BR multiple times. The new news is about what flavor they are going to build - vanilla MKI or with newly matured EA techs.
Last edited by V_Raman on 08 Dec 2021 08:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman: The only news to date was that of the 12 "replacement" Su-30MKIs. This supposed 50 order is new, as of today.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by V_Raman »

I dont think so. I distinctly recall HAL pushing for an extra squadron of MKI to fill the gap between completion of current run and start of SS upgrades.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Extra squadron of MKI will be anywhere from 18 - 20 aircraft. Not 50.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by V_Raman »

agreed. maybe they have some more needs in mind - going from 30-32 to 50 - like specialized ELINT aircraft.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/146 ... 00801?s=20 ---> Given the success registered by the indigenous UTTAM AESA FCR programme, no great leap of imagination is required to see that the IAF's Su-30 MKIs may get a larger derivative of the same in the near future.
India develops AESA radar to make IAF fighters more lethal
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 41445.html
08 Dec 2021
Project director D Seshagiri of Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) confirmed this and said that the developed AESA radar is 95% indigenous, with only one imported subsystem. It has the capacity to track 50 targets in the sky at a range in excess of 100km and engage four of them simultaneously.
...
The AESA radar will be mounted on the radar cone of Su-30 MKI aircraft as well as carrier-based MiG-29 K fighters of the Indian military, according to Seshagiri.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 45221?s=20 ---> Halwara and Thanjavur are now the main bases of the 40 Brahmos ALCM armed Su-30MKIs. Halwara based Su-30s will focus on standoff strikes on targets across LAC, LoC and IB, whereas Thanjavur one's primary mission will be maritime strike. Can be rotated to bases across India.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:Extra squadron of MKI will be anywhere from 18 - 20 aircraft. Not 50.
If they require a whole new squadron it will have to be 18 plus attrition replacements for the lost airframes. Otherwise some existing squadrons will remain understrength.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Well 50 is just that!! (16+3)x2 for 2 new squadrons +12 attrition replacement..
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by venkat_kv »

Rakesh Saar,
the current projections are to shore up the sq strength even if this 50 extra Su30-MKI comes into picture. But what are the chances that IAF could try to reduce Tejas MK2 numbers citing its short range versus the modern multirole long range Rafale and long range Su-30MKI as additional requirements for the MRF sq numbers?

The last part is just speculation on my part though.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

It is not true, Mirage 2000 will start retiring as thier spare parts become rarer along with Jaguars, If we can manufacture Tejas Mk2 with funding , development done, that too with AESA Radar, OBOGS, Internal Jammer. IAF will take every Tejas MK2.

As we saw with the Mig 23/MIg 27, if an aircraft does not have significant Indian input and has been stopped by the home country, its days in the Indian Airforce are also numbered.

Problem is we have budgeted only for making 100 odd Tejas variants during 2020-30, we ideally should be manufacturing a lot more.

While comparing with Gripen E, folks please note size of Sweden and Gripen C/D did not have an AESA radar etc. Whereas a lot of capability has been developed for the TEJAS MK1A, so if GOI, HAL fund it I am pretty certain we can Tejas MK2 inducted in 5 years time. Only thing is that order needs to be palced by 2024 when full development is not yet completed. It involves risks, planning, GOI-MOD-HAL-IAF working in mission mode.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by V_Raman »

I think we are overthinking on Tejas MK2. If MK2 is shown to be real with line-of-sight to IOC/FOC - it will be ordered. The ball is in the court of ADA/DRDO to get it to that stage. HAL has its hands full with 83 MK1A.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RealAirPower1/statu ... 78499?s=20 ---> Looking under the Su-30MKI's hood! The Su-30's bulbous radome houses the Bars N011 multimode PESA radar. The massive radar has a search range of 400km and a tracking range of 200km; it can simultaneous track 15 air targets, and engage 4 of these at once!

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Kailash »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/PatilSushmit/status ... 08227?s=20 ---> Russia and India have abandoned the US dollar in mutual settlements. All payments are made in rubles and rupees, the director general of Rosoboronexport said on Tuesday.
<OffTopic>
Part of a ploy to undermine leverage of the USD as the global reserve currency, and increase accumulation of INR, which might be gaining against the Rubel in times to come. Russians are trying to insulate themselves from punitive American sanctions. It will become a double whammy in case we are aligned with US and Russians hold INR reserves during a war.
</OffTopic>
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 55299?s=20 --->

So that's the thing under the giant nose. The N011M BARS, a long range hybrid Phased Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) radar of an Indian Air Force Su-30MKI. Expected to be replaced by the Irbis-E in "Super Sukhoi" mid-life upgrade.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

V_Raman wrote:I dont think so. I distinctly recall HAL pushing for an extra squadron of MKI to fill the gap between completion of current run and start of SS upgrades.
Its not from HAL.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 76448?s=20 ---> DRDO Astra Mk2 BVR missile with 160+ km of range will be flight tested onboard Su-30MKI in 2022. Photo - @Kuntal__biswas / Info - @tarmakmedia

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/aviation07101/statu ... 41187?s=20 ---> Su-30MKI bomber raining FAB-250 during Iron-Fist exercise 2016. Nearly 8 tonnes payload released without breaking a sweat. Thats Flanker for you. Its versatility has no boundaries.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 24672?s=20 ---> Flankers of Indian Air Force. Picture courtesy of Squadron Leader Indranil Nandi.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 94689?s=20 ---> Time to kick off the upgrade, Uttam, EW, Astra variants - the entire fit.

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/RealAirPower1/statu ... 78499?s=20 ---> Looking under the Su-30MKI's hood! The Su-30's bulbous radome houses the Bars N011 multimode PESA radar. The massive radar has a search range of 400km and a tracking range of 200km; it can simultaneous track 15 air targets, and engage 4 of these at once!
Wonder what the capability of an Uttam that is scaled up to that size !! Would there be enough power required for such a GaN radar ?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 24672?s=20 ---> Flankers of Indian Air Force. Picture courtesy of Squadron Leader Indranil Nandi.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 94689?s=20 ---> Time to kick off the upgrade, Uttam, EW, Astra variants - the entire fit.
Why are the engine shrouds missing in these Flankers ? ..looks like the skirts hitched up :?:
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by YashG »

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 200517.ece

HAL has 3 LCA lines ready, Tumkur will do LUH. Separate lines for LCH. What is to be done of Nasik line ? It is no longer producing.
In a situation like right now - doesnt look prudent to keep a line idle. Is there any visibility on what happens of Nasik line ?

Is HAL angling to keep Nasik line open for extra sukhois ? Or will it do the MKI upgrades.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Nasik will be kept busy with MLU and Super Sukhoi upgrade, they will produce 12 New SU 30MKI and keep overhauling the SU-30 fleet at 25 per year for the next 11-12 years.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:This is *BIG* news. Next step, soybeans :lol:

https://twitter.com/PatilSushmit/status ... 08227?s=20 ---> Russia and India have abandoned the US dollar in mutual settlements. All payments are made in rubles and rupees, the director general of Rosoboronexport said on Tuesday.
Good for both i guess., they need to replace china with India anyway., good for them
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 38432?s=20 ---> An Indian Air Force Su-30MKI "Indo Flanker", equipped with two KNIRTI SAP-518 Advanced Self Protection Jammers (ASPJ) and IAI EHUD Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) pod. Photo by Aviation Wall.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I cannot verify this, but FWIW. I doubt new turbofans are coming, but could be wrong. The IAF is tight lipped about this, as they should be.

https://twitter.com/5thSu/status/148468 ... 03552?s=20 ---> IAF's much awaited project "Super Sukhoi-30" kick starts in Russia. Two samples are being built at the Sukhoi factory. Will them have Indian components from DRDO and BHEL, but Russian AL-41F engines similar to Su-30SM2.

https://twitter.com/5thSu/status/148482 ... 29474?s=20 ---> First two samples made in Russia, later others in HAL.

https://twitter.com/5thSu/status/148482 ... 98081?s=20 ---> It will take 2 years for completion, after 2 years negotiations, deal might be signed after 5-6 years.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 53508?s=20 ---> IAF's No.15 Squadron 'Flying Lances' which is equipped with Su-30MKI, has become the first operational fighter squadron to be armed with indigenous Astra BVR air-to-air missiles. The squadron is playing an important role in developing the tactics & operational parameters of Astra.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/148 ... 59648?s=20 ---> No.15 Squadron "Flying Lancers" Su-30MKI seems equipped with or to be equipped with Astra!

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 27395?s=20 ---> The Himalayan Eagle gets new sharper talons. This is but a small part of the kit that should come in as the Super Sukhoi modernization happens. We should see the Su-30MKI fly with an UTTAM variant & the AL-41F-1S TVC engine soon. Also glass cockpit & MAWS.

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