Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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Rakesh
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Russian defence industry team to visit India soon for talks on upgrading IAF’s Sukhoi fleet
https://theprint.in/defence/russian-def ... t/1087006/
18 Aug 2022
Upgrades would include more better radar & integration of electronic warfare abilities. Russia also hopeful of inking deal with India to supply 12 more Su-30 MKIs and 21 MiG-29s.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Indranil »

Rakesh wrote:Russian defence industry team to visit India soon for talks on upgrading IAF’s Sukhoi fleet
https://theprint.in/defence/russian-def ... t/1087006/
18 Aug 2022
Upgrades would include more better radar & integration of electronic warfare abilities. Russia also hopeful of inking deal with India to supply 12 more Su-30 MKIs and 21 MiG-29s.
The additional MKIs and MiG-29s will be great. I hope the upgrade is done internally with Sukhoi paid consultation fees.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:Russian defence industry team to visit India soon for talks on upgrading IAF’s Sukhoi fleet
https://theprint.in/defence/russian-def ... t/1087006/
18 Aug 2022
Upgrades would include more better radar & integration of electronic warfare abilities. Russia also hopeful of inking deal with India to supply 12 more Su-30 MKIs and 21 MiG-29s.
on this forum i had read indians inspected the mig29 frames and found them to be in bad shape. Isnt it so?

Also logistically, if bulk of ur mig29 go out in 30s then wud it make sense to maintain 21 odd 29s well into 40s?

I would vouch for a minimum 5 squadruns for any type that IAF operates. So either thru these 21 or thru transfer of naval 29Ks, we shud expand mig29 squadrun to 5 and operate them well i to 30s.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Indranil »

YashG wrote: on this forum i had read indians inspected the mig29 frames and found them to be in bad shape. Isnt it so?
The opposite is what I remember.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Indranil »

YashG wrote: Also logistically, if bulk of ur mig29 go out in 30s then wud it make sense to maintain 21 odd 29s well into 40s?
Whatever we get now has to be logistically supported into the 40s. Question is what is lowest hanging fruit in terms of time and money because Tejas are not coming at the rate we wanted.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Is that a chicken and egg situation Indranil? LCA not coming at the rate wanted as enough orders not placed?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I am sure IR can provide much greater info, but you hit the nail on the head Sachin.

Will first place a paltry order of 40 Mk1s and then order another piecemeal 83 Mk1As. Even if they combined the two orders (123 aircraft) from the get go, the delivery rate would have been faster.

They could have introduced the Mk1A as an incremental upgrade at a later stage. But that would have required in setting aside some ego & pride of our beloved Air Marshals at Air HQ. However 114 MRFA is a must have to address squadron shortage. The number of 114 MRFA was acquired through a methodical process derived at Air HQ. I actually saw a retired Air Marshal say those words. I guess Air HQ believes that acquisition programs will scare the PLAAF away versus the actual aircraft themselves, because the completion of the 114 MRFA contract is not going to happen anytime soon.

When Rafales, Su-30MKIs, MiG-29UPGs and Mirage 2000Is were being used to stop recent air incursions on the Eastern front, someone got a bright idea to move the Tejas Mk1 to that theatre. Better to flog these airframes, than use up the airframe lives of the imports. Now that the danger has finally hit home, the ego & pride is quietly gulped down and much fanfare is announced of the Tejas Mk1 moving to the eastern theatre.

Even now there is time - double the Mk1A order. Another four Mk1A squadrons is not going to be detrimental to the IAF's war fighting capability. But no can do. I must have 114 MRFA onlee!

P.S. Watch Air HQ repeat the same process with the Tejas Mk2.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral,

Every post I see on BRF these days that deals with armed forces or procurement depress me.

We cannot procure guns
We have ships held up because of the bloody war in UKR
We have small arms that are held up because of war in UKR
We are filled with rapture at talks of testing this and that but nothing concrete by way of induction
We have an AC which does not fit the aircraft we want
We have AC that are not fit for purpose (Navy)
We have journalists posting excerpts from US documents which paint a picture of our top brass being very status conscious etc (Which I completely agree with!)
I could go on


Show me some silver linings....
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Indranil »

ks_sachin wrote:Is that a chicken and egg situation Indranil? LCA not coming at the rate wanted as enough orders not placed?
Sirjee,

I feel we as a system of user-enabler-designer-producer are terribly disjointed. In the case of aviation especially, more often than not they are pulling in different directions! It is only when some amazing people come about they can bring everybody to share a vision and get things done.

I don't think IAF sees HAL as an equal to itself where both of them enable and bolster each other in the long-run. MoD babus are on their own highs. ADA is a lab which has to wait for funds and with no production capability. It is a miracle that things work.

LCA orders where delayed and not in the hundreds that are required. There is an MRFA carrot hanging somewhere. LCA Mk2 is though as a challenge to that carrot!

Things are discombobulated.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by nachiket »

Indranil wrote: Sirjee,

I feel we as a system of user-enabler-designer-producer are terribly disjointed. In the case of aviation especially, more often than not they are pulling in different directions! It is only when some amazing people come about they can bring everybody to share a vision and get things done.

I don't think IAF sees HAL as an equal to itself where both of them enable and bolster each other in the long-run. MoD babus are on their own highs. ADA is a lab which has to wait for funds and with no production capability. It is a miracle that things work.

LCA orders where delayed and not in the hundreds that are required. There is an MRFA carrot hanging somewhere. LCA Mk2 is though as a challenge to that carrot!

Things are discombobulated.
This is where strong leadership in the MoD would have made a difference. The DM is not a scientist/engineer, nor a soldier, nor a mere bureaucrat pushing files. He is supposed to be the one who understands all the competing interests and figures out a way to get everyone to follow the same path, stamping his authority if people are being unreasonable. It is his job to ensure India's present and future defense needs are taken care of and to come up with a plan to reach that goal and then persuade, cajole or threaten if necessary all the stakeholders to follow that plan. Otherwise, what use is he to anybody?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

nachiket wrote: This is where strong leadership in the MoD would have made a difference. The DM is not a scientist/engineer, nor a soldier, nor a mere bureaucrat pushing files. He is supposed to be the one who understands all the competing interests and figures out a way to get everyone to follow the same path, stamping his authority if people are being unreasonable. It is his job to ensure India's present and future defense needs are taken care of and to come up with a plan to reach that goal and then persuade, cajole or threaten if necessary all the stakeholders to follow that plan. Otherwise, what use is he to anybody?
Nachiket sahab, if the DM say your post he would do "Kadi Ninda" of you!!!!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

I had same opinion about kadi ninda but then who is most promising minister to replace him?
Ashwin Vaishnavi? He seems to be better choice.

RS ji could serve the nation where his strength lies. May be jagaruk citizens need to express themselves directly to RS ji and request him to handover the responsibility to the one who is most suitable for the job.
One who can match the respected Parrikaar ji in talent and dedication.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Admiral,

Every post I see on BRF these days that deals with armed forces or procurement depress me.
I know how to easy it is to get despondent. I empathize with you.

But it is good to be aware of the issues, even if as civilians...we cannot force any outcome.
ks_sachin wrote:Show me some silver linings....
Silver Linings = YOs, JCOs and NCOs. It is on their back & shoulders that we stand.

If that sounds melodramatic, it is not meant to be. It is the unvarnished truth.

After reading India's Most Fearless 1 and 2 (and awaiting 3), one can only be in wonder and awe of them. Give up their life for a cause and there is no guarantee that the nation will actually respect their memory or look after their loved ones.

India survives on their bravery and sheer luck.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by YashG »

Our RM is not a bad guy - he is gracious and understands enough to tamp out the import lobby once in a while. But our RM is not a crusader. Parrikar was a technocrat, took interest in crusading his job. Our RM is more mellow, balanced.

The issue is that PMO will never depute a strong RM or else that will become a political counterweight. RM is no.3. in govt.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by basant »

YashG wrote:Our RM is not a bad guy - he is gracious and understands enough to tamp out the import lobby once in a while. But our RM is not a crusader. Parrikar was a technocrat, took interest in crusading his job. Our RM is more mellow, balanced.

The issue is that PMO will never depute a strong RM or else that will become a political counterweight. RM is no.3. in govt.
I can't believe these views! "Our RM is more mellow, balanced", for whom? Not for the Services. RM is a job for tough person whose first obligation is national security, not the security of the egos of the officers he meets. The nicest thing I can think of saying is that the RM is intimidated by the officers and has no time or inclination to master critical details for national security. If it requires a technocrat to get work done, so be it.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by YashG »

basant wrote:
YashG wrote:Our RM is not a bad guy - he is gracious and understands enough to tamp out the import lobby once in a while. But our RM is not a crusader. Parrikar was a technocrat, took interest in crusading his job. Our RM is more mellow, balanced.

The issue is that PMO will never depute a strong RM or else that will become a political counterweight. RM is no.3. in govt.
I can't believe these views! "Our RM is more mellow, balanced", for whom? Not for the Services. RM is a job for tough person whose first obligation is national security, not the security of the egos of the officers he meets. The nicest thing I can think of saying is that the RM is intimidated by the officers and has no time or inclination to master critical details for national security. If it requires a technocrat to get work done, so be it.
What you state is also correct; I pretty much agree.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:Indigenous UTTAM AESA Radar Ready: Doubts Loom Over Initial Order Size
https://delhidefencereview.com/2022/09/ ... rder-size/
05 Sept 2022
From the above article. FINALLY!!!! YAAY!!! :twisted:

https://twitter.com/amcaji/status/15665 ... GWjuYfPUCQ ---> Development of a scaled up Uttam for Su-30MKI has begun.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by vimal »

Im waiting news about a magical Russia AESA soon
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

If the Su30 ever get's a Russian radar.

It will be a political dicision and not the decision of the IAF.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by SRajesh »

^^ on the same vein
How easy is it for India to make changes to Su30 during their MLC or MLU(however you look at at it) without approval from Rus!!
I presume Rus holds all the copyrights for the Software etc, so given that anything we do, do we have to run everything by them.
If so do they get to test it prior to fitting?? meaning UTTAM prototype needs to be checked out by Rus.
I see that MICA. Derby, Astra integrated but was it under Rus presence and guidance/interference??
And did not Rus offer a AESA in Saint Anthony's time??
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I thought that the MKI mission computer was Indian.

It that is indeed the case. The Russians will not have any say, if India decided to upgrade the mission computer along with the radar.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... qbLh8v7KXw ---> SuS (Super Sukhoi) upgrade programme gains momentum as IAF approves development, integration, flight-testing and certification of scaled-up DRDO LRDE Uttam AESA radar as it is ready to allocate test bed aircraft for the purpose.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

As per DDR article, flights tests as atleast 2 years away
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by YashG »

SU30 MKI with its current radar could look quite faraway as it is. With AESA how much farther will it see?

+ As and when Astra Mk2 comes into play, its range combined with radar capability and superior loadout should allow MKI to lobb multiple BVRs at standoff ranges and clean out the sky. Adversaries will have to take evasive action and in process go out of engagement area.

Not that the adversary will not see MKI - with its size they will but with longer range AAMs and capability to carry more BVRs it can lock and chase out more adversaries.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

YashG wrote:SU30 MKI with its current radar could look quite faraway as it is. With AESA how much farther will it see?
Digital Zoom vs Optical Zoom
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

Rakesh wrote:
YashG wrote:SU30 MKI with its current radar could look quite faraway as it is. With AESA how much farther will it see?
Digital Zoom vs Optical Zoom
AESA isn't just that. You can interlace A2A, A2G, terrain following, IFF, SAR, EW, etc. Truly multi-role!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Sijree you are correct. I just simplified it.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Thos 12 Su-30MKI and 21 Mig-29s we have been hearing since ACM Dhanoa's retirement.
Eg. ACM Bhaduria first speech was about these.


What's the hold-up?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Ramana-ji, media reports state that the Russians were charging an arm and a leg for the 12 Su-30MKIs and the 21 MiG-29s and that was prior to the Russian-Ukrainian war.

Now that the war is underway and still going strong, the thought process appears to have changed with regards to the 21 MiG-29s. The IAF is planning to retire her MiG-29 fleet by the end of this decade, so it might not make sense to acquire those 21 birds. Plus with the Mk1A coming soon and the Mk2 production starting by the end of the decade, it really does not make sense to induct 21 MiG-29UPGs.

Negotiations for the 12 Su-30MKI are reportedly still on, which involves the SS upgrade. And that makes sense, considering the Rambha is the backbone of the IAF combat fleet.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Well, there is a HAL plan for upgrade and the Russian plan for the upgrade which is basically hafta.
I think India has given enough hafta.
The 21 Mig-29s are like one squadron.
Hope its canceled and the number is added to Mk2 order.

And an AL-31 alternate developed with the delta.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, media reports state that the Russians were charging an arm and a leg for the 12 Su-30MKIs and the 21 MiG-29s and that was prior to the Russian-Ukrainian war.

Now that the war is underway and still going strong, the thought process appears to have changed with regards to the 21 MiG-29s. The IAF is planning to retire her MiG-29 fleet by the end of this decade, so it might not make sense to acquire those 21 birds. Plus with the Mk1A coming soon and the Mk2 production starting by the end of the decade, it really does not make sense to induct 21 MiG-29UPGs.

Negotiations for the 12 Su-30MKI are reportedly still on, which involves the SS upgrade. And that makes sense, considering the Rambha is the backbone of the IAF combat fleet.
We can buyout SU30 MKIs from Malaysia, thr version is close to ours - upgrade them and in return give them XX LCAs over and above 18 they will place with palm oil. Since IAF wont order more MK1As, let Malaysia do it.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Jay »

YashG wrote: We can buyout SU30 MKIs from Malaysia, thr version is close to ours - upgrade them and in return give them XX LCAs over and above 18 they will place with palm oil. Since IAF wont order more MK1As, let Malaysia do it.
Rather we not buy anymore from RU or Malaysia but invest these monies in getting additional LCA's.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by BenG »

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, media reports state that the Russians were charging an arm and a leg for the 12 Su-30MKIs and the 21 MiG-29s and that was prior to the Russian-Ukrainian war.

Now that the war is underway and still going strong, the thought process appears to have changed with regards to the 21 MiG-29s. The IAF is planning to retire her MiG-29 fleet by the end of this decade, so it might not make sense to acquire those 21 birds. Plus with the Mk1A coming soon and the Mk2 production starting by the end of the decade, it really does not make sense to induct 21 MiG-29UPGs.

Negotiations for the 12 Su-30MKI are reportedly still on, which involves the SS upgrade. And that makes sense, considering the Rambha is the backbone of the IAF combat fleet.
We can buyout SU30 MKIs from Malaysia, thr version is close to ours - upgrade them and in return give them XX LCAs over and above 18 they will place with palm oil. Since IAF wont order more MK1As, let Malaysia do it.
I agree we should not buy Mig-29 anymore. The plane is better off retired. But the deadline given 2027 is not realistic. We should probably get the Malaysian Mig-29 for spares though. They have been grounded. With regards to Su-30 MKM, RMAF is already short on multi-role fighters. They shortlisted Rafale as new MRCA. But they could not buy them despite French offering a 10-year payment plan.

Su-30 MKM has lot of air frame life left. They were bought only in 2007. But reportedly only 4 of 18 are available to fly. HAL is pitching to upgrade malaysian Su-30 MKM, according to idrw. But to my knowledge, "Aerospace Technology Systems Corporation" of Malaysia already did that to improve availability of the planes.

RMAF is already short of multi-role combat aircraft and cash. They are planning to buy Kuwait's Hornet fleet for $ 2 billion. If they manage to buy the budgeted 18+18 LCA, it will be nothing short of a miracle. However given the amount of corruption that happens in malaysian defence deals. They will keep this deal hanging to profiteer from it. Given that they also need money to upgrade Kuwaiti F-18 Hornets, they will not take a decision which requires them to make financial commitments to another aircraft buy. Lets see how much the palm oil angle pays to export Tejas.

Only deals HAL will can hope to get from Malaysia are Su-30 MKM upgrage deal and Hawk upgrade deal in future. Personally I would like India to buy off Su-30 MKM. But in reality, they can't spare those aircraft. But given the amount of work HAL has done on Tejas-Lift, IAF can definitely place orders before Malaysia and start production in HAL-Nashik. Mig-21 was bought at the rate of 40-50 an year from 1963 to 1983. To replace them with Tejas, we need to match such production capacity. Any Malaysian export win can be supplied without any additional capacity addition.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

What I want is a new build Mig 29 with new Indian engines and Indian FBW and everything Russian replaced by Indian...

Completely rebuilt by India.

It was and is, and will remain the best of them all - looks included.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

That's the ORCA.
It is spiral development from TEDBF.
And leverages Mk2 and AMCA subsystems.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

But I want the shape to be exactly like Mig 29. Its prettier than the all
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

I see the IAF bug has bitten!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Haridas »

ramana wrote:Well, there is a HAL plan for upgrade and the Russian plan for the upgrade which is basically hafta.
I think India has given enough hafta.
The 21 Mig-29s are like one squadron.
Hope its canceled and the number is added to Mk2 order.

And an AL-31 alternate developed with the delta.
Right way to go.
The 110 to 130kN step versions are excellent golden positioning for a whole range of airframes in Atmanirbhar Shashtra paddhati आत्म निर्भर पद्घति
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... -sj012ZGtw ----> GOLD photograph, and first on the internet (most likely) showing an Indian Air Force Su-30MKI "Indo-Flanker" armed with 2x INERT R-73E "Archer" IRH-CCM [T], 2x INERT R-27ET "Alamo-D" IRH-MRAAM [T], 2x R-27ER "Alamo-C" SARH-MRAAM [T] and SAP-518 High Band Jammers.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... -sj012ZGtw ---> IMHO we will soon see the Flankers replace the R27s more and more with Astra derivatives and I-Derby ER, and newer Indian pods will complement the SAP-518s. The R-73E will be replaced by the ASRAAM.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... -sj012ZGtw ---> The rationale is straightforward. The semi active homing head on the R27 limits the flexibility of the Flanker in air to air combat "locking" the Flanker in position till it's missiles hit. ARH means the Flank ER fires, guides the missiles in, till seeker goes active, runs.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... -sj012ZGtw ---> The difference may appear marginal but it isn't. The few km the missile is on its own, get the launch platform the extra time it needs to turn on its afterburners and run for cover. After all, it too was probably fired on.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... -sj012ZGtw ---> So why have the R-27 series then? Well, for one, the ER series have "long burn" motors translating to a few crucial extra Km in range. And their modular design means the missiles have interchangeable seekers - both radar and IR guided versions exist. But India can do better now.

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