Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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Pratyush
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

If the R27 seeker is modular, can it be replaced by the Astra seeker?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by nachiket »

Why not just use the Astra instead?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Exactly. Whatever advantages (if any) of the R-27 will be negated with the Astra (especially the Mk2 and Mk3 variants).

Indian weapons (Astra, SFDR, BrahMos, etc) + Indian mission computer + Indian radar (scaled up Uttam AESA) + Indian jammers + Indian IRST...all mounted on Russian airframe with Russian AL-31FP turbofans. Full khichadi with desired effect.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote: Indian weapons (Astra, SFDR, BrahMos, etc) + Indian mission computer + Indian radar (scaled up Uttam AESA) + Indian jammers + Indian IRST...all mounted on Russian airframe with Russian AL-31FP turbofans. Full khichadi with desired effect.
No not khichadi. What the MKI is right now is khichadi with systems and weapons being sourced from all over the world. It will stop being khichadi when the entire end to end avionics and weapons package more or less is Indian.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:Exactly. Whatever advantages (if any) of the R-27 will be negated with the Astra (especially the Mk2 and Mk3 variants).

Indian weapons (Astra, SFDR, BrahMos, etc) + Indian mission computer + Indian radar (scaled up Uttam AESA) + Indian jammers + Indian IRST...all mounted on Russian airframe with Russian AL-31FP turbofans. Full khichadi with desired effect.
No saar no Khichadi.

When it is full of indian ingredients and only the plate and cook top are phoren then it is a full Karnataka idly chutney Sambar meal served on Imported China.

Khichadi I ear when sick and sometimes even not then!!!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Saars, my bad.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by bala »

Rakesh wrote:all mounted on Russian airframe with Russian AL-31FP turbofans
Of the two - airframe and engine - India currently is lagging behind on engine front. Airframes we can tackle, like the exercise on proven Tejas and impending AMCA. The weak point is, of course, engines which should be project #1 in mission mode for the coming years. Engines have to be mastered, there is simply no other option.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

There is no plan to change the AL-31FP turbofans on the Su-30MKI. Confirmed by HVT Sir.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

Then for what we are spending 3500 crore rupees on? That was sanctioned under AL-31FP head?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Where did you read this? link?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by YashG »

ks_sachin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Exactly. Whatever advantages (if any) of the R-27 will be negated with the Astra (especially the Mk2 and Mk3 variants).

Indian weapons (Astra, SFDR, BrahMos, etc) + Indian mission computer + Indian radar (scaled up Uttam AESA) + Indian jammers + Indian IRST...all mounted on Russian airframe with Russian AL-31FP turbofans. Full khichadi with desired effect.
No saar no Khichadi.

When it is full of indian ingredients and only the plate and cook top are phoren then it is a full Karnataka idly chutney Sambar meal served on Imported China.

Khichadi I ear when sick and sometimes even not then!!!
But has to be served quick like the omnipresent 'srixxx' type food joints in bengaluru
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

nachiket wrote:Why not just use the Astra instead?
Perhaps to save the amount of time to get a large number of BVR missiles in service cheaply.

As the data link and fuel and airframe have already been paid for as a part of the original order.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

YashG,

My mom makes better idly chutney and sambar than most SrXXX. Plus MTR has opened up near our house so I have not been to a SriXXX for last 10-15 years.

Home idly is served even quicker than the SriXXX as I can take it out of the cooker directly.....
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by mody »

fanne wrote:Then for what we are spending 3500 crore rupees on? That was sanctioned under AL-31FP head?
This is supposed to be a program to fully indigenize the manufacturing of Al-31FP engines in India. Some people have also speculated that we have even managed to make the engines slightly better than the Russian Al-31FP engines.

If we do manage to completely indigenize the engines, it would be a huge deal and maybe explains why we are not opting change of engines, as part of the S-30MKI upgrade.
The Chinese have managed to uprate the Al-31 engines that they use to 140-145 KN trust, as opposed to the 125 KN of the baseline AL-31s.

Funds will be for full indigenization of the Al-31FP engine manufacture at HAL Koraput. An announcement for this was made maybe last month. Will have to search for the relevant news item. It was part of announcements for multiple Make In India initiatives I guess.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by mody »

With regards to the Uttam Aesa on the Su-30MKI, if this program goes through, then Russia will have almost nothing to offer for the upgrade.
The mission computer currently used is already Indian and the upgrade always envisaged having our own upgraded much more powerful unit.
The cockpit design and displays are also currently indigenous and the upgrade will build on the same.
The weapons package is already being upgraded and moving away from Russian systems.
The R-73E is being replaced by ASRAAM and Python-5 and in the future we might even get the Astra-IR.
The R-77 and R-27s are being replaced by Astra MK1 and I-Derby-ER. In due course Astra MK-2 and MK-3 will join as well.
KH-31P anti-radiation missiles are being replaced by RudraM-1 and in due course RudraM-2 will also join.
All other air to ground weapons like the KAB series bombs etc. will be replaced going forward.

Already LGBs like Paveway-II and Griffin-III have been integrated, along with the SAAW. Once the testing has been completed, the G-series PGMs (Garuda/Garuthma/Gautam/Gaurav) etc will also be inducted. The anti-ship missile is the Brahmos and when the NG variant is developed, the entire fleet maybe able to carry the Brahmos-NG. Once the new mission computer is developed and integrated, we might even see the Hammer and maybe even the likes of JDAM being integrated on the Su-30MKI.

The EW suite will definitely move away from the Russian pods and in all likely hood, will be a mix of Indian and some Israeli elements. Will have to see what kind of upgraded helmet makes it way to the aircraft. Also I wonder, if the current helmet HMS can slew, R-73E, ASRAAM and Python-5? If yes, it would one of a kind.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

mody wrote:With regards to the Uttam Aesa on the Su-30MKI, if this program goes through, then Russia will have almost nothing to offer for the upgrade.
Program is underway. Only formalisation is yet to be done. And given that it is scaling of an existing radar, it is expected to have no surprises either. Many Russian-made LRUs have been indigenised already in both fighter and engine due to lack of sources and/or exorbitant costs. Extending it to others should not be an issue when we're talking about upgrading the entire fleet.

As for the engine, we should be able to put in our own advances in materials to gain better performance.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

Prasad any insight on the spend of almost half billion dollars on AL-31F engine? Indenization of left out item? Or hoarding of components from mother Russia? Or R&D amount?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

fanne you made the claim. I think you should find the info!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

That is why I asked fanne for the info :)

I am hearing this Rs 3500 crore for AL-31FP turbofan for the first time.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

“The DAC accorded AoNs for manufacture of Dornier aircraft and Su-30 MKI aero-engines by the Navratna CPSE M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited with focus on enhancing indigenisation, particularly in indigenising aero-engine material,” the Ministry said.

This is all I could find from :
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... y-7956169/

No breakdown of the engine cost in the total.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by mody »

ramana wrote:“The DAC accorded AoNs for manufacture of Dornier aircraft and Su-30 MKI aero-engines by the Navratna CPSE M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited with focus on enhancing indigenisation, particularly in indigenising aero-engine material,” the Ministry said.

This is all I could find from :
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... y-7956169/

No breakdown of the engine cost in the total.
This is what I was referring to. There was only a one line news that the govt. has given the go ahead for indigenization of Al-31FP engines.
No news about the funds allocated etc. Then there were some comments that we can make improvements in the engine and have the capacity to upgrade the same. No information as to what it means to upgrade the engines, ie. whether it means that the thrust will be increased or the MTBO time and the total life of the engines will be enhanced or all the above.

However, a program to indigenize the AL-31FP engines has been initiated.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Vips »

mody wrote:With regards to the Uttam Aesa on the Su-30MKI, if this program goes through, then Russia will have almost nothing to offer for the upgrade.
The mission computer currently used is already Indian and the upgrade always envisaged having our own upgraded much more powerful unit.
The cockpit design and displays are also currently indigenous and the upgrade will build on the same.
The weapons package is already being upgraded and moving away from Russian systems.
The R-73E is being replaced by ASRAAM and Python-5 and in the future we might even get the Astra-IR.
The R-77 and R-27s are being replaced by Astra MK1 and I-Derby-ER. In due course Astra MK-2 and MK-3 will join as well.
KH-31P anti-radiation missiles are being replaced by RudraM-1 and in due course RudraM-2 will also join.
All other air to ground weapons like the KAB series bombs etc. will be replaced going forward.

Already LGBs like Paveway-II and Griffin-III have been integrated, along with the SAAW. Once the testing has been completed, the G-series PGMs (Garuda/Garuthma/Gautam/Gaurav) etc will also be inducted. The anti-ship missile is the Brahmos and when the NG variant is developed, the entire fleet maybe able to carry the Brahmos-NG. Once the new mission computer is developed and integrated, we might even see the Hammer and maybe even the likes of JDAM being integrated on the Su-30MKI.

The EW suite will definitely move away from the Russian pods and in all likely hood, will be a mix of Indian and some Israeli elements. Will have to see what kind of upgraded helmet makes it way to the aircraft. Also I wonder, if the current helmet HMS can slew, R-73E, ASRAAM and Python-5? If yes, it would one of a kind.
Add the Uttam AESA and our own IRST(DRDO/DEL) and you only have engines that Russia will want to sell.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

I am finding sir. It had come twice. I won’t be surprised if it is in BR on some forum being commented. I remember the amount of 3500 carore as well, it was in Goi declaration (kind of pdf with goi seal that comes out now days). Google and I have not been friends ever, nor for past 20 years, I don’t think it is going to change but will try the search.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

OK. will also look for it.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... kyhwv55Y1w ---> IAF likely to equip Su-30 MKIs with X-Guard fibre optic towed decoys which will protect it against all types of air or ground launched radar guided missiles.

Info Sheet on X-Guard ---> https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/upl ... -guard.pdf

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... kyhwv55Y1w ---> Better done ASAP. Very cost effective and sensible if implemented. Cost of an Aircraft, trained crew is substantially more.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by VishnuS »

Rakesh wrote:That is why I asked fanne for the info :)

I am hearing this Rs 3500 crore for AL-31FP turbofan for the first time.
Sir I am no expert on Aero Engines, but something is bugging me after I read this post. I am asking technical gurus over here to check whether my assumptions have any merit/possibility.

That being said, let me go into my assumptions

2 + 2 = 4

We are the industry leaders when it comes to 3D printed turbofan engine components. Case in point... HTFE 25.

During 2018 DefExpo I had chance to meet one of directors of HTFE engine. I had asked him about using 3D printed parts for Kaveri. He said compressor section of Kaveri is good and needs no changes and the problem is with Hot Core. He then added we can certainly use 3D parts for compressor section, they will be lighter and more durable than traditional parts, but there is no funds to do study.

2 = We have capability to use 3D printed parts in compressor section,. They are lighter, cheaper to manufacture and durable. But no funds to carry out any studies.

2 = 3500 crores of funds to improve AL 31.

2 + 2 = 4

Does this mean are we developing better compressor section for AL 31 engines?

I remember that we were also working on some thermal coatings to preserve engine life, I have seen those samples (not sure if it was in DefExpo 20 or AI 21). I am also not sure of that project status. I hope you or other experts can add more info.

Thus I rest my case.

PS. Coming to assumptions, let me quote my manager

Assume
ASS/U/Me: making ASS of U and ME.

If I got something wrong, then Gurus please correct me and prevent me from becoming as ASS
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

All the know why for the SU30 engine is with Mother Russia. We are maanufacturing based on their know how.

Are you telling me that 3D printing material can replace the advanced mattalurgy req for hot sections of an engine.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by BenG »

ks_sachin wrote:All the know why for the SU30 engine is with Mother Russia. We are maanufacturing based on their know how.

Are you telling me that 3D printing material can replace the advanced mattalurgy req for hot sections of an engine.
Yes, I work in that industry and this literally happens real-time using software not even much of human input is needed.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by VishnuS »

ks_sachin wrote:All the know why for the SU30 engine is with Mother Russia. We are maanufacturing based on their know how.

Are you telling me that 3D printing material can replace the advanced mattalurgy req for hot sections of an engine.
Bhai, 3D printing is good for compressor section, not the Hot section.

Even we are not planning to use 3D printed stuff in hot section of HTFE 25. Earlier we had planned, but now they are dropped.

Coming to Know How and Know Why, we don't need them, we just need dimensions of compressor parts, and build them using 3D printing. This will give us better quality parts right away, but not lighter parts....

To lighten, we need to do stress analysis on compressor then shave some extra weight.

Now coming to Hot section, I remember about work that's happening on thermal coating, I wasn't sure how long we had progressed or is there any chance that we can apply on existing engines.... I just wanted to know if we can do that?
Last edited by VishnuS on 17 Sep 2022 23:20, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Tanaji »

Note: Not an aero engineer by any stretch but involved in systems integration in a different field.

The issue is not whether 3D printed components will work or not: they most definitely will and assuming the tolerances are correct may be cheaper and may even do a better job.

The point is what one is trying to achieve with this. Is the aim to reduce costs or increase performance? The first is a relatively early attainable goal due to the nature of the technology, but will it be worthwhile given the small numbers involved? The answer may be yes if technology development in itself a goal as this can be reused on another projects.

Increased performance is another kettle of fish though. Lets say using the new component you are increasing the design parameter of that component by x%. However, what is the effect of that increase on the surrounding components that it is connected to? Will that handle the increase or do your have to do some engineering to get it to handle that extra variance? What is the effect on the control system pipeline when it sees that increases performance? Do your FCLs have to be reworked now (most likely at least for when operating in the new regime)? All of that rework represents costs that you have to bear. In the end what it will be down to whether that x% increase is worth the money or is it simply better putting in a new engine.

If it is being done as a project to develop 3D printing of engines, I think is absolutely worth it, but for performance increases one has to do a study…
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by VishnuS »

Tanaji wrote:Note: Not an aero engineer by any stretch but involved in systems integration in a different field.

The issue is not whether 3D printed components will work or not: they most definitely will and assuming the tolerances are correct may be cheaper and may even do a better job.

The point is what one is trying to achieve with this. Is the aim to reduce costs or increase performance? The first is a relatively early attainable goal due to the nature of the technology, but will it be worthwhile given the small numbers involved? The answer may be yes if technology development in itself a goal as this can be reused on another projects.

Increased performance is another kettle of fish though. Lets say using the new component you are increasing the design parameter of that component by x%. However, what is the effect of that increase on the surrounding components that it is connected to? Will that handle the increase or do your have to do some engineering to get it to handle that extra variance? What is the effect on the control system pipeline when it sees that increases performance? Do your FCLs have to be reworked now (most likely at least for when operating in the new regime)? All of that rework represents costs that you have to bear. In the end what it will be down to whether that x% increase is worth the money or is it simply better putting in a new engine.

If it is being done as a project to develop 3D printing of engines, I think is absolutely worth it, but for performance increases one has to do a study…
Yes sir, what you have said is true.

Now, I am not dreaming of 10 or even 5% of increasing in performance. I am hoping for

1) Compressor section needs energy to run, I am praying that if we reduce the compressor section weight, the that will increase performance !?
2) Maybe add thermal coating then we can atleast improve the MTBO
3) Add FADEC to the engine.

Improve AL 31F, make it a tad better than what we are using it today. In the process learn a bit more about turbofan engines.

I remember reading about some WS series engine that uses AL 31 core and updated compressor section. I hope we can build something like that.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

for SU30MKI - I will mainly focus om reliability, then performance and last cost
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

VishnuS wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:All the know why for the SU30 engine is with Mother Russia. We are maanufacturing based on their know how.

Are you telling me that 3D printing material can replace the advanced mattalurgy req for hot sections of an engine.
Bhai, 3D printing is good for compressor section, not the Hot section.

Even we are not planning to use 3D printed stuff in hot section of HTFE 25. Earlier we had planned, but now they are dropped.

Coming to Know How and Know Why, we don't need them, we just need dimensions of compressor parts, and build them using 3D printing. This will give us better quality parts right away, but not lighter parts....

To lighten, we need to do stress analysis on compressor then shave some extra weight.

Now coming to Hot section, I remember about work that's happening on thermal coating, I wasn't sure how long we had progressed or is there any chance that we can apply on existing engines.... I just wanted to know if we can do that?
Please read Maitya’s posts before any talk of engines. Else we r all arm chair experts
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Have we been sitting still?

HTFE25, Manik and Paninian Airspace single digit KN thrust engine's are not in isolation.

The question i have are,

1) what prevents the transfer of skills developed for HTFE 25 from developing a 90 KN or 120 KN engine.

2) why the capacity developed for by Paninian Airspace cannot be used for development of higher capacity jet engines.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Why does everything comment from you devolve into a personal attacks?

What do I know?

The LinkedIn profile of the personnel.
The product page of the company.

Beyond that I have no other visibility of the company. Since you are Mr. know it all. A little bit of politeness can help in learning things for people like me.

Because all I am asking are questions on the basis of what I am seeing.

But if you don't know how to be polite. Or answer the questions. Then please don't bother responding.

Good day.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Thanks for your post and i understand where you are coming from.

You can mak an argument that I got taken by the corporate speak and presumed that something exists when in fact it didn't.

And you would be correct in that.

I am afraid that you are mis remembering my participation in Tu160 discussion.

My argument was for a domestic low observable solution. Powered by either 4 dry Kaveri. Or the engine developed by the JV partnership that India is likely to be a part of in the near future. Or even a derivative of the Russian High bypass turbo fan engine of the progress family. With the belief that a start for a such a program will result in a flying platform by mid to late 30s.

You can say that I had been extremely optimistic about what I was saying.

But I have never argued for the procurement of the Tu160 nor have i posted any link in support of such a procurement.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Pratyush »

:)

And with that, this thread is truly derailed.

:((
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ashishvikas »

With depleting fighter strength, Indian Air Force looks to speed up Su-30 fleet modernisation
Dinakar Peri

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 934607.ece

“The Air Service Quality Requirements for the first upgrade are being finalised. Lot of work is under way on that front,” a defence official said. “We are trying to do as much of the upgrade as possible within the country involving the private industry,” the official stated.

The upgrade process is as much as procuring an aircraft, the official said while explaining that the upgrade is a complex exercise and is being planned in phases. During the early stage of the deliberations, which have been going on for several years now, Russian side had pitched for the entire upgrade to be done in Russia but given the long timelines, India was inclined to do it in phases with a major part of it in the country. The Make in India effort and the war in Ukraine have accelerated that effort.

Effort is on to do basic mission capabilities, fly by wire and flight controls among others within the country, the official stated. The IAF is looking to add new weapons, avionics and sensors and engines on the Su-30MKIs to keep them contemporary for the next few decades.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

naraswami wrote: Seems funding is allocated to do something for the Al-31. Previous posters are sharing bits that imply AL-31 indigenization was NOT covered when past claims of 100% indigineous MKIs "from raw-materials" were claimed... looks like, with MoD/HAL and MKI, statements need to go through the Ashwathama filter. In any case, still a good move to fill that gap
Who said this 100% MKIs are made in India. Please don't make claims based on your improper data sourcing and then attribute them to the forum or MOD/HAL etc.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

Excellent and long overdue move. The IAFs MRFA obsession has delayed this program by almost a decade. Better late than never. If they'd started on this a decade back, we'd have squadrons full of Indianized Sukhois. As usual their lack of belief in Indian industry and desire to conserve funds for the expensive MRFA pushed this program back, but at least now they seem to be on the right track.
ashishvikas wrote:With depleting fighter strength, Indian Air Force looks to speed up Su-30 fleet modernisation
Dinakar Peri

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 934607.ece

“The Air Service Quality Requirements for the first upgrade are being finalised. Lot of work is under way on that front,” a defence official said. “We are trying to do as much of the upgrade as possible within the country involving the private industry,” the official stated.

The upgrade process is as much as procuring an aircraft, the official said while explaining that the upgrade is a complex exercise and is being planned in phases. During the early stage of the deliberations, which have been going on for several years now, Russian side had pitched for the entire upgrade to be done in Russia but given the long timelines, India was inclined to do it in phases with a major part of it in the country. The Make in India effort and the war in Ukraine have accelerated that effort.

Effort is on to do basic mission capabilities, fly by wire and flight controls among others within the country, the official stated. The IAF is looking to add new weapons, avionics and sensors and engines on the Su-30MKIs to keep them contemporary for the next few decades.
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