Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Last Page of Previous Thread ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&start=4080
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 24450?s=20 ---> Ground Vibration Testing & GVT Based Flutter Analysis of Su30MKI for Derby integration was addressed & clearance was provided for captive trials as part of the DOS-30 (Derby on Su-30) programme. Elastic modes of the aircraft, store modes and control surface modes were analyzed.

Image

That is the picture size in the twitter link. Nothing can be done about it, unless someone can source a larger sized image.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Originally posted by BRF Member Aditya_V in the previous thread...

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Khalsa »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 24450?s=20 ---> Ground Vibration Testing & GVT Based Flutter Analysis of Su30MKI for Derby integration was addressed & clearance was provided for captive trials as part of the DOS-30 (Derby on Su-30) programme. Elastic modes of the aircraft, store modes and control surface modes were analyzed.

Image

That is the picture size in the twitter link. Nothing can be done about it, unless someone can source a larger sized image.
Did we finally get the nod from the Russians for the Derby integration or we just forging ahead regardless ?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 17728?s=20 ---> Large order approving upgrade of IAF Su-30MKI fleet with the DR-118 RWRs soon.

DR-118 RWR ---> https://www.drdo.gov.in/dr118-rwr
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Super Sukhoi: Next-Generation EW Suite
https://alphadefense.in/super-sukhoi-ne ... -ew-suite/
26 June 2021
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Russia will upgrade its Su-30SM to the “Super-Sukhoi” standard
https://www.aviacionline.com/2021/08/ru ... -standard/
05 August 2021

https://twitter.com/5thSu/status/142563 ... 71272?s=20 ---> Su-30SM2 is ready, which will have most of the features from Su-35S. This same upgrade will be done on Indian Su-30MKIs, but with some desi changes under the Super Su-30 Project.

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, What role do the Russians have in the Super Sukhoi upgrade? From the above article it's an avionics upgrade and essentially no Russian role.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Like you said Ramana-ji, it is largely an avionics upgrade, with the AESA radar being the centre piece. That will be Russian. There will be Indian systems onboard, like the new RWR system. The engine upgrade will likely not happen, as per HVT Sir's tweet. But the real sweet spot will be the Indian weapons i.e. Astra Mk2, SFDR, BrahMos-A and BrahMos-NG, etc. However, involving the Russians would be requisite to have these various systems and weapons talk to each other.

This is KaranM's domain/area of expertise. He knows it quite well. He will provide a much more detailed response to your post, when he sees it.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Thanks. Actually in my mind, Russian arms' future is dependent on what they are prepared to offer and execute.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

If we can get the Utam AESA on it - it will be iceing on the Cake. I think we should stick with the present engines- given the amount we have invested in them.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by uddu »

Aditya_V wrote:If we can get the Utam AESA on it - it will be iceing on the Cake. I think we should stick with the present engines- given the amount we have invested in them.
https://idrw.org/iaf-backs-upscaled-utt ... mki-fleet/
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

Getting an Indian radar on the MKI is the plan.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Looks like 125-DRWR Dhruti to replace Tarang for Su-30 MKI
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Vips »

If Russians seeing hopes of making a huge/neat packet on the SU30 upgrade is not materializing, why would it cooperate in sharing its radar technology with us to make it compatible with Indian arms systems? That would be a triple whammy for them:
-Not making money on the Super Sukhoi package it had offered
-Losing out on the Avionics/Radar upgrade
-Losing out on the arms/missiles that it would have sold over the next 15-20 years for the SU30.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by titash »

Vips wrote:If Russians seeing hopes of making a huge/neat packet on the SU30 upgrade is not materializing, why would it cooperate in sharing its radar technology with us to make it compatible with Indian arms systems? That would be a triple whammy for them:
-Not making money on the Super Sukhoi package it had offered
-Losing out on the Avionics/Radar upgrade
-Losing out on the arms/missiles that it would have sold over the next 15-20 years for the SU30.
Multiple reasons:

1) India will always keep the Russians close as an alternative supplier should the western supply chain be subject to sanctions or technology denial

2) India's manufacturing performance is woeful...we're making 83 LCA Mk1As from 2024 thru 2029 for a flagship project (6 years, 14-16 aircraft per year). Compare that to 4,500+ F-16s, 11,000+ MiG-21s, 1,500+ MiG-29s, 1,500+ Su-27/30s built over the years. If sh*t hits the fan, you want the US or the Russians arsenals on your side.

3) The Russians have a 50 year lead on India in designing and making nuclear submarines & gas turbines, and are willing to supply the same for top dollar...the latest Akula will cost us $3 Billion and employ hundreds of Russians.

4) While the Russians lose out on the bottom drawer stuff as the customer becomes wealthier and develops in-house expertise, the sales simply move to more expensive top drawers stuff. If they keep India's armed forces happy through after sales support and product performance, India keeps buying more expensive top end equipment - simple.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The end goal is to put as much Indian content into the Su-30MKI as possible. The airframe design is excellent, no doubt in that. Over time, change as much of the avionics, sensors and weapons. The fleet is barely 20 years young, as the first Rambha unit (No 20 Lightnings) was raised in Sept 2002. If the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 can serve for close to five decades, there is nothing stopping the Rambha fleet from doing the same.

So hopefully an Indian AESA + RWR + MAWS can find her way into the Rambha fleet in the future. Also Indian missiles (Astra Mk2, SFDR, BrahMos-A or -NG, SAAW, etc). The current Rambha already carries the Astra Mk1. The Super Sukhoi upgrade will turn the Rambha fleet into a sledgehammer. An engine upgrade would be icing on the cake, but will not happen.

One thing is undeniable - go try doing this on an American bird. You cannot really blame the IAF for not wanting an F-teen.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by brar_w »

Prasad wrote:Getting an Indian radar on the MKI is the plan.
Would be interesting to see if the Russian side resists this. One would think that any IAF/MOD funded AESA work will have huge financial implications for them given the Flanker installed base. So it is in their interest to push a Russian AESA to the MOD and get it to fund some of the development and integration and testing.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

They charged an astronomical price for the Rambha-BrahMos integration and we then did it ourselves.

So lets see how this plays out.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by brar_w »

Yes but here even if they eat a ton of cost on the IAF integration they can still recover the investment by offering the radar to the Russian Air Force, and all the other export Flanker operators. But yes, if the IAF can scale the Uttam it will be a dramatic improvement in capability and will provide further control over future upgrades.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by nachiket »

brar_w wrote: Would be interesting to see if the Russian side resists this. One would think that any IAF/MOD funded AESA work will have huge financial implications for them given the Flanker installed base. So it is in their interest to push a Russian AESA to the MOD and get it to fund some of the development and integration and testing.
The Russians will try whatever is in their interest. They aren't the problem. The ones to worry about are the naysayers and vested interests within India who will try their best to push for a readymade Russian solution like the Irbis (even if it is a PESA) at the first sign of trouble. Building and integrating a scaled up Uttam on the MKI will be a fairly involved process that will take time and money. But most of all it needs commitment to push past the issues that will inevitably arise and complete it. If this goes ahead I expect to see articles all over trying to push for a Russian radar while decrying how we have failed with the Uttam.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by basant »

Why should scaling Uttam be a problem? After all, it owes its lineage to the much bigger Netra AEW&C, now improved for supersonic speeds.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The technical issue is not really the challenge, it is the import lobby. That is the point that nachiket was making.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

brar_w wrote:
Prasad wrote:Getting an Indian radar on the MKI is the plan.
Would be interesting to see if the Russian side resists this. One would think that any IAF/MOD funded AESA work will have huge financial implications for them given the Flanker installed base. So it is in their interest to push a Russian AESA to the MOD and get it to fund some of the development and integration and testing.
Practically no chance. MKI is mapped out. Remember LRDE is already working on 3 concurrent radars right now-
The OG Uttam - Furthest along right now and the baseline for all future radars.
The MWF upgraded version
The GaN version for the AMCA.
All this on the back of the success on the Netra program.

nfw is the mki fielding an imported radar for the next 20 years. weapons integration is anyway delinked from the radar.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Music to my ears Prasad-ji. So happy to read the above. You made my day!

In due time (and hopefully!), the only Russian thing left on the Rambha should be the airframe.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

Uttam’s QTRM configuration

The radar is capable of tracking 100 targets simultaneously and engage 6 of them by SARH/ARH missiles in high priority tracking mode. For comparison, Elta EL/M-2052 is capable of tracking 64 targets in TWS mode. In 2015 Uttam was stated to be capable of tracking a target having RCS of 2m2 at a distance of 92 kilometers. According to the new reports, the range has been increased to 150 kilometers for the target of the same RCS. In GMTT mode 2 targets can be tracked.

Uttam has over 16 different types of operational modes and the radar can operate in multiple modes simultaneously by changing modes pulse-to-pulse which gives the pilot exceptional situational awareness and mission flexibility. DRDO published a brochure of the Uttam AESAR Fire control System which features the first image of UTTAM Aesa Radar undergoing installation process on LCA Tejas LSP-2 which has been deputed to carry out flight trials and integration of India’s indigenous Uttam AESA radar.LRDE already has built Three Developmental Prototypes of UTTAM Aesa Radar which were intensively used and tested from Rooftop and Helicopters in different modes to evaluate the performance of the Radar in the past. LRDE now has developed Three more Radars which will be used for Integration and flight testing program which is likely to commence soon and will take 2-3 years to complete.Defense Analysts predict it might take even 5-6 years from the date of commencement of flight trials to clear all modes and all weapons integration into the new indigenous FCR before it can be cleared for production.

source http://www.aerojournalindia.com/enews/?p=2914

The Uttam in the MKI would be a game changer for Sukhoi's capability., the power available and the capability of the larger radar would mean an exponential increase in range and capability to network and create a virtual battlefield picture even without an AWACS ., may give interesting targeting solutions and enable a Growler variant down the line.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

Prasad wrote:
nfw is the mki fielding an imported radar for the next 20 years. weapons integration is anyway delinked from the radar.
what does the above sentence mean in simple English ? Does that mean what we all wish? Is that inside news or deduction?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Prasad »

Studies have already been done on what the MKI can field. In terms of power availability, space, weight, thermal limits etc. As for weapons integration, KaranM knows that stuff better than most in the open domain. So i'll ask him to shed some light if he can.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

To be honest, the radar is the only critical part still out of our reach, as in it is yet to be prototyped and tested for a full Su-30 installation. All the rest can be done in-house. We've advanced that far. If IAF funds the DRDO/HAL accordingly, it can get a Su-30 sized Uttam fairly quickly, and an upgraded SPJ fit too (there is a smaller unit already headed for LSP and then trials, small being relative -its smaller than the humongous SAP-518, but certainly large enough for most opponent FCRs).

We are also adding new RWRs and datalinks separately, without waiting for the big-bang upgrade proposal.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

Regarding weapons these are what are headed/on Su-30 in recent days per *public reports*, apart from the existing fit:

RudraM series - NGARM (RudraM-1), RudraM-2/2A, RudraM-3
SAAW
Brahmos
Spice-2000
PGHSLD
Gaurav/Gautham - glide bombs
i-Derby ER
KAB-1500 LG
Astra (followed by Mk2 and Mk3/SFDR)

I wouldn't be surprised if we've also moved to integrate Mica, ASRAAM and the newer R-73 MD and RVV-MD on the Su-30 too. IAF was reportedly procuring Rocks - that would be ideal for the Su-30, but they could go on the Mirage as well.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ldev »

Karan M wrote:.... and an upgraded SPJ fit too (there is a smaller unit already headed for LSP and then trials, small being relative -its smaller than the humongous SAP-518, but certainly large enough for most opponent FCRs).
Very interesting!! I think that is as important as the radar specially given the SU-30 RCS.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by kit »

I have always found the spectra of Rafale interesting in the sense of active radar cancellation though its not talked about much, now does that involve the RBE radar and if so would such a system might work with the Sukhoi as well ?! .. looking at potential upgrade paths ..a more "silent sukhoi" ?..brar_w might be the best person to answer this ?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Question just popped in my head? What replaces the mki when time comes? In terms of range, endurance and payload, the design is unmatched. I don't think the upcoming Desi designs will cut it, nor the raffle. UCAVs?

The mki is almost strategic territory as a self escort option.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

Cain Marko wrote:Question just popped in my head? What replaces the mki when time comes? In terms of range, endurance and payload, the design is unmatched. I don't think the upcoming Desi designs will cut it, nor the raffle. UCAVs?

The mki is almost strategic territory as a self escort option.
To be honest the MWF, AMCA options will be able to do a lot of what the MKI does in a cheaper fashion. The MKI fleet will still remain in some form for at least a couple more decades. The Rafale matches the MKI in range, endurance and payload but not the flexibility of payload options or the radar upgrade potential (aperture size).
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by bharathp »

Cain Marko wrote:Question just popped in my head? What replaces the mki when time comes? In terms of range, endurance and payload, the design is unmatched. I don't think the upcoming Desi designs will cut it, nor the raffle. UCAVs?

The mki is almost strategic territory as a self escort option.
AMCA for mid range + stand off
mostly Ghatak for deep penetration
I imagine AMCA + the standoff uavs as payload from AMCA.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

ldev wrote:
Karan M wrote:.... and an upgraded SPJ fit too (there is a smaller unit already headed for LSP and then trials, small being relative -its smaller than the humongous SAP-518, but certainly large enough for most opponent FCRs).
Very interesting!! I think that is as important as the radar specially given the SU-30 RCS.
The thing is Bars is powerful enough to compensate for the large RCS and gives the MKI first look against smaller platforms, and equivalent/sufficient even with them using their EW. However, by using a SPJ the Su30 would again dominate smaller aircraft, with the larger SPJ variant only necessary against large AESA equipped platforms.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Karan M wrote:
ldev wrote: Very interesting!! I think that is as important as the radar specially given the SU-30 RCS.
The thing is Bars is powerful enough to compensate for the large RCS and gives the MKI first look against smaller platforms, and equivalent/sufficient even with them using their EW. However, by using a SPJ the Su30 would again dominate smaller aircraft, with the larger SPJ variant only necessary against large AESA equipped platforms.
Do you think this has been precipitated by the supposed lack lustre performance of Su35s vs raffles in the Egyptian air force (if at all)?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Maria »

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:
The thing is Bars is powerful enough to compensate for the large RCS and gives the MKI first look against smaller platforms, and equivalent/sufficient even with them using their EW. However, by using a SPJ the Su30 would again dominate smaller aircraft, with the larger SPJ variant only necessary against large AESA equipped platforms.
Do you think this has been precipitated by the supposed lack lustre performance of Su35s vs raffles in the Egyptian air force (if at all)?
The Su-35 was meant to be a very potent war machine, are we sure that their pilots were a competent lot?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Maria wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Do you think this has been precipitated by the supposed lack lustre performance of Su35s vs raffles in the Egyptian air force (if at all)?
The Su-35 was meant to be a very potent war machine, are we sure that their pilots were a competent lot?
No. Nothing is for sure known. Not the roe, which are often skewed in dact, and definitely not the EW suite carried by the 35. From what I understand, the khbiny setup is quite comprehensive with wingtip jammers and possibly an underbelly one ala growler. Not sure if the Egyptians field this.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by nachiket »

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:
The thing is Bars is powerful enough to compensate for the large RCS and gives the MKI first look against smaller platforms, and equivalent/sufficient even with them using their EW. However, by using a SPJ the Su30 would again dominate smaller aircraft, with the larger SPJ variant only necessary against large AESA equipped platforms.
Do you think this has been precipitated by the supposed lack lustre performance of Su35s vs raffles in the Egyptian air force (if at all)?
Why would the IAF use unconfirmed reports from Egypt when they can test the MKI vs the Rafale capability themselves?
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