Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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V_Raman
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by V_Raman »

i get confused sometimes - is the issue the MKI radar or the missiles (eg: BVR is not good).
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The current fit is OK but needs upgrades to stay one step ahead in the 2020s, 2030s and 2040s.

* The Bars PESA needs to replaced with an AESA (preferably scaled up Uttam). We got money for Jal Jeevan mission, but no money for GaN fab. We got money for 114 MRFA, but no money for GaN fab. Our priorities :roll:

* The stock of R-27s and R-77s need to be swapped out with Astra Mk2 and SFDRs. See this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7675&start=5720#p2548474

* The IRST will be replaced in the future ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7861&start=320#p2547084

The goal is to replace much of Russian kit with Indian kit, while making the aircraft more lethal. Another equally vital task is to improve the serviceability of the fleet. We need to hit upwards of 75%. Doable, but the IAF's priorities lie elsewhere.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Jayram »

Is it possible that entire fleets of Russian equipment may go idle in Indian military due to lack of critical spares? Except of course for cannibalization. That would be a good reminder if there was one needed to get started on build/make at home.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

There were slides on what changes are proposed for the Su-30MKI upgrade. Good to visit that again.
And list what is make vs buy. And from where?

Jayaram Yes very big possibility as Ukraine War shows their rearmament will be priority.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Jayram wrote:Is it possible that entire fleets of Russian equipment may go idle in Indian military due to lack of critical spares? Except of course for cannibalization. That would be a good reminder if there was one needed to get started on build/make at home.
Cannibalization of Rambha fleet = 114 MRFA :)

The more you reduce the availability of airframes currently in service, the greater the odds of inducting newer airframes to replace them. The foolishness of this strategy is that it is not just a good chunk of the Rambha fleet will be cannibalized now, to keep the remaining airframes air worthy, but the newer airframes that are acquired will share the same fate in another 20 years. A cycle of stupidity that will repeat herself over and over again, if not stopped in its tracks TODAY. To avoid that scenario altogether is to improve the serviceability of the airframes presently in service + replace (as much as possible) the Russian kit with Indian kit (IRST, EW, Radar, Weapons, etc).

The IAF has laser vision focus on short term goals (acquiring shiny new airframes), but avoids long term planning (sustaining the fleet for 4+ decades) like the plague. That changed with the Rafale and Tejas Mk1A contracts, but a lot more needs to be done.

The IAF loves hot rod fighters and the more the merrier. But the excitement wears off quickly and the IAF then goes shopping for the next fighter. Not their money plus guaranteed pension after X years of service. I still remember how upbeat and excited the IAF was on 27 Sept 2002, when the first Rambha squadron (No 20 Lightnings) was raised at Lohegaon. Kitcha Sir and Charlie Sir were jumping with joy! Two decades later, the IAF has now shifted her excitement to 114 MRFA. Have you seen the twinkle in the Air Chief's eye when he talks about 114 MRFA? :mrgreen:

But this excitement that the IAF displays, only exists with foreign maal. With local maal all sorts of excuses are given to avoid large orders. The one that cracks me up is the thicker windscreen of the Tejas' canopy. This is the same IAF that gladly accepted less powerful turbofans with their first batch of Jaguar and Mirage 2000s in the late 70s and mid 80s. But the canopy's thickness on the Tejas was not up to Air HQ's satisfaction.

HAL Agrees To Indian Air Force’s Requirement: LCA Tejas To Get A New Thicker Canopy For Better Protection
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/hal-agree ... protection
16 Jan 2019
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

Spare vs upgrade are two different issues.

Spare:
They said that enough spares are available for the coming months due to contingency planning but in the longer run, Russian suppliers are likely to face hurdles in meeting commitments as several components are procured from the west. Spares and supplies from Russia for the Indian fighter fleet amount to almost ₹6,000 crore annually.
1) Enough spares for the current fleet for the time being. Future spares are in doubt as they have Western components which are under sanctions after Ukraine Crisis.
2) Spares and supplies are an annual cost of Rs 6000 crores i.e. About $800 Million/Year. Will go up due to inflation and could even dry up due to sanctions on Russia.
This point cannot be more emphasized.

Next is the Su-30MKI upgrade

Russians have an upgrade called Super Sukhoi. Obviously with lots of Russian equipment!

India has its own upgrade proposal consisting of majorly Indian-made equipment.
So first need to understand it is not the Super Sukhoi to be understood.
Indian proposal is as follows:

"More than 44 systems in the fighter jets - the Indian Air Force (IAF) has a Sukhoi 30 fleet strength of 272 - are to be replaced in a deep overhaul that will involve the Defence Research and Development Organisation, Bharat Electronics Ltd and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Discussions on such an upgrade have been on for almost a decade but the final plan is yet to be approved, with some blaming bureaucratic hurdles. :?: :?: :?:


Link:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst

So which are the 44 systems and who makes them and what plans to substitute them
Second, what are the plans for the spares and supplies of Rs 6000 crores and climbing?
What can be done to buy a life of type buy to get out of this annual bleeding?
This ideally should be an IAF planning task if they were not so busy chasing the 114 MRFA.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote: 1) Enough spares for the current fleet for the time being. Future spares are in doubt as they have Western components which are under sanctions after Ukraine Crisis.
2) Spares and supplies are an annual cost of Rs 6000 crores i.e. About $800 Million/Year. Will go up due to inflation and could even dry up due to sanctions on Russia.
This point cannot be more emphasized.
Ramana-ji, that is the key point - time being. How long is time being? The Rambha fleet is only 20 years young. She has got another three decades of service left. The Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 will hit 50 years when they retire in the 2030s. Going by that measure, the Rambha fleet still has 60% of time left. And this is not a small fleet (like the 50 odd Mirage 2000s) by any measure. The Rambha fleet is massive (260+). For a squadron strapped IAF, they need to be focused on sustaining the fleet not just for the time being...but for the next three decades.

So indigenization of spares should be a key focus of the IAF and not 114 MRFA. One can only hope that Air HQ is looking into this.
ramana wrote:Next is the Su-30MKI upgrade
....
So which are the 44 systems and who makes them and what plans to substitute them
I certainly don't know all 44 items...but I believe IRST is one of them, radar is another, as per HVT Sir the turbofans are fine and HAL claims to build the AL-31FP from raw material stage :) Perhaps KaranM might know more on the 44 items.
ramana wrote:Second, what are the plans for the spares and supplies of Rs 6000 crores and climbing?
What can be done to buy a life of type buy to get out of this annual bleeding?
This ideally should be an IAF planning task if they were not so busy chasing the 114 MRFA.
Reverse engineer the spares. That will not work in every situation though, but whatever we can reverse engineer...we must.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ramana »

We need our SMEs to tell what these are.
Let us wait.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:TheWe need to hit upwards of 75%. Doable, but the IAF's priorities lie elsewhere.
I thought this goal was already achieved thanks to MPs intervention during modi 1.0?

Frankly I don't think the iaf is in such a hurry to upgrade the mki because the platform is well ahead of the bulk of it's competition in the neighborhood. Dact results where these were squared off against top end teen series and later confirmed post balakote, gives the iaf the luxury to run after mrfa. We've only seen the mki in a defensive action vs f16blk50, and they did exceptionally well. When used aggressively, don't think there is anything in the hood that can withstand these. Maybe the plaaf su35 and j20, but as yet these numbers are not enough to cause iaf to pause and think.

Combine this with the incoming s400s, mrsam, Akash, and there is a sense of security. My guess is that they feel pretty confident with 32sqds, which they can maintain through 2030, till 2035. Of course at that point they'll be hankering for a 5gen platform. And we'll have an fgfa circus.

But in the meanwhile, they'll talk of mrfa and nothing else. Maybe they'll luck out and get a few sqds too.

Jmho
Last edited by Cain Marko on 10 May 2022 07:43, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

It was standing at 55% and MP got it to somewhere in the late 60s or early 70s.

Unless my memory is failing me, I don't believe I have seen a fleet serviceability of 75% or above for the Su-30MKI.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:It was standing at 55% and MP got it to somewhere in the late 60s or early 70s.

Unless my memory is failing me, I don't believe I have seen a fleet serviceability of 75% or above for the Su-30MKI.
I read somewhere 80% number was achieved at one point. Will try to dig it up.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:So indigenization of spares should be a key focus of the IAF and not 114 MRFA. One can only hope that Air HQ is looking into this.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7848&p=2548776#p2548776
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the Tejas Mk2 thread....

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I stand corrected. Apparently the Rambha is being planned for integration with the AIM-132! Article from 2019.

MBDA’s AIM-132 ASRAAM
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... 132-asraam
05 Sept 2019
MBDA’s ASRAAM is presently also in service with the RAF and RAAF, which is an optimum solution given its ability to passively provide short to medium range protection. Reportedly, much impressed by its performance, the IAF have initiated proceedings to integrate the missile with its Sukhoi Su-30MKI and Tejas LCA fleet as well.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Anujan »

Rakesh wrote:I stand corrected. Apparently the Rambha is being planned for integration with the AIM-132! Article from 2019.

MBDA’s AIM-132 ASRAAM
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... 132-asraam
05 Sept 2019
MBDA’s ASRAAM is presently also in service with the RAF and RAAF, which is an optimum solution given its ability to passively provide short to medium range protection. Reportedly, much impressed by its performance, the IAF have initiated proceedings to integrate the missile with its Sukhoi Su-30MKI and Tejas LCA fleet as well.
There were conflicting reports about that

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indian-ai ... rks-russia
The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) move to integrate British Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air missile (ASRAAM) to Russian-origin Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighter jets has not gone down well with the Moscow, reports LiveFist.

“No country would allow this,” said Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia’s Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC). He said this while answering queries of a group of visiting Indian journalists at the Rosoboronexport offices in Moscow.

“This is mostly out of concern for the security of the technology. We are concerned about a foreign manufacturer invited to integrate anything on our equipment,” he added.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

With the performance of Russian forces in Ukraine, I doubt they will have any more opposition to this. And if we swap out the Bars for a scaled-up Uttam AESA, I doubt the Russians would have anything to say. From the above article, I believe their main opposition lies in the Bars radar being able to speak to the AIM-132. But if integration is not happening, then R-73 will continue.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Chinmay »

Rakesh wrote:With the performance of Russian forces in Ukraine, I doubt they will have any more opposition to this. And if we swap out the Bars for a scaled-up Uttam AESA, I doubt the Russians would have anything to say. From the above article, I believe their main opposition lies in the Bars radar being able to speak to the AIM-132. But if integration is not happening, then R-73 will continue.
Admiral, ASRAAM is an IR guided missile. Why would it need to talk to the radar?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Chinmay wrote:Admiral, ASRAAM is an IR guided missile. Why would it need to talk to the radar?
That is why I am Admiral :)

My bad Sirjee. I assumed that was the issue. Perhaps someone else can advise why the Russians are putting up an opposition.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by V_Raman »

maybe because they will lose orders for R-73?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

That can't be the primary and only reason.

If that was the case, they should have objected to integration of the Astra-series, which are replacing the R-77s.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:My bad Sirjee. I assumed that was the issue. Perhaps someone else can advise why the Russians are putting up an opposition.
With conflict it is gotten worse but Russians have generally resisted allowing non Russian weapons to be integrated with their platform and the deal we signed with them requires us to get Russian approval for any such integration (they cannot stop us from integrating domestic weapons). They previously have pushed back on integration of Israeli electronics as well, if you recall we scrapped the upgrade of the Bears for that reason and retired them instead.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

John, does the Su-30MKI not feature French and Israeli sub-systems? We have been operating the Rambha for nearly 20 years now. What opposition was there from Russia when Project Vetrivale was launched?

Sukhoi-30MKI - Project Vetrivale
https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/airc ... #gsc.tab=0
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by titash »

Rakesh wrote:
Chinmay wrote:Admiral, ASRAAM is an IR guided missile. Why would it need to talk to the radar?
My bad Sirjee. I assumed that was the issue. Perhaps someone else can advise why the Russians are putting up an opposition.
Not all IR guided missiles are close combat missiles

The Russians during the cold war had an RF and an IR version of every single BVR missile type and typically the Su-15 and other interceptors would first fire the IR missile followed by an RF missile to maximize kill probability and avoid the IR missile locking on to the plume of the RF missile

How were these IR missiles cued?
1) By Radar for BVR targets in LOAL mode
2) By the missile's IR sensor in LOBL mode for WVR targets
3) Even with the R-73/HMS combo, I would assume the HMS simply enabled the missile to launch off-boresight in LOAL mode i.e. launching with target coordinates and not necessarily with the missile's IR sensor having achieved a lock

You will need radar integration. The ASRAAM also goes out to 50 km...well beyond WVR and into BVR territory
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by titash »

Rakesh wrote:John, does the Su-30MKI not feature French and Israeli sub-systems? We have been operating the Rambha for nearly 20 years now. What opposition was there from Russia when Project Vetrivale was launched?

Sukhoi-30MKI - Project Vetrivale
https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/airc ... #gsc.tab=0
Back in the 1996-2000 timeframe, the Russian economy had cratered and they needed every customer and every dollar they could.

The fact that they let us design/modify/upgrade the Su-30 avionics gave us the opportunity of a lifetime. This wouldn't have happened if Boris Bhai (Yeltsinwaale) didn't need the money.

Things are different now. Look at the rise in food, fertilizer, and energy prices...the world needs Russia, not the other way around. Likewise with military equipment...things will once again revert to a "take it or leave it" situation because India, Turkey, Soko, etc. simply don't have the ability to run independently of the big 4 (US, UK, Russia, France). Israeli upgrades will be piecemeal at best.

Just to play Devil's advocate...if the US were to say GE404 / GE414 cannot be exported due to ITAR/non-NATO yada yada...the Tejas Mk1, MK1A, MK2, AMCA are all dead in the water. It's back to purchasing Rafales & Su-35/57s with pure French and Russian avionics and weapons, no?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:John, does the Su-30MKI not feature French and Israeli sub-systems? We have been operating the Rambha for nearly 20 years now. What opposition was there from Russia when Project Vetrivale was launched?

Sukhoi-30MKI - Project Vetrivale
https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/airc ... #gsc.tab=0
Relations where better between Russia and West in 2010s for example Mig-29k even has TopSight, so Russia was willing to allow them if it serves its interest.

However still drawing the line where it could be potentially lose $$ if we go with other vendor for upgrade (see Bear, AAA or SAM upgrade) or integrate other missiles. But now I don’t see Russia agreeing to anything.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ldev »

titash wrote:
How were these IR missiles cued?
1) By Radar for BVR targets in LOAL mode
2) By the missile's IR sensor in LOBL mode for WVR targets
3) Even with the R-73/HMS combo, I would assume the HMS simply enabled the missile to launch off-boresight in LOAL mode i.e. launching with target coordinates and not necessarily with the missile's IR sensor having achieved a lock

You will need radar integration. The ASRAAM also goes out to 50 km...well beyond WVR and into BVR territory
Does the SU-30 have the Elbit HMD? Or did they get the Samtel HMD? Either way, neither HMDs are Russian and can be used to cue the ASRAAM without relying on the Russian radar wouldn't they? MBDA states that the missile can accept targeting information either from the radar or via HMD cueing. Also interesting is that the Block 6 ASRAAM has a non US seeker and so does not attract ITAR provisions.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Chinmay »

ldev wrote:
Does the SU-30 have the Elbit HMD? Or did they get the Samtel HMD? Either way, neither HMDs are Russian and can be used to cue the ASRAAM without relying on the Russian radar wouldn't they? MBDA states that the missile can accept targeting information either from the radar or via HMD cueing. Also interesting is that the Block 6 ASRAAM has a non US seeker and so does not attract ITAR provisions.
The Su-30 uses the Sura-K, AFAIK. Elbit's HMD hasnt been integrated with the Sukhoi, and Samtel will basically make Thales' Topsight under license.

Maybe the HMD cueing is the issue?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

titash wrote:
Rakesh wrote: My bad Sirjee. I assumed that was the issue. Perhaps someone else can advise why the Russians are putting up an opposition.
Not all IR guided missiles are close combat missiles

The Russians during the cold war had an RF and an IR version of every single BVR missile type and typically the Su-15 and other interceptors would first fire the IR missile followed by an RF missile to maximize kill probability and avoid the IR missile locking on to the plume of the RF missile

How were these IR missiles cued?
1) By Radar for BVR targets in LOAL mode
2) By the missile's IR sensor in LOBL mode for WVR targets
3) Even with the R-73/HMS combo, I would assume the HMS simply enabled the missile to launch off-boresight in LOAL mode i.e. launching with target coordinates and not necessarily with the missile's IR sensor having achieved a lock

You will need radar integration. The ASRAAM also goes out to 50 km...well beyond WVR and into BVR territory
+1 I believe similar testing was carried out with the r73 and Tejas
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Thank You @John and @Titash. Greatly appreciated.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

Russians, only last year agreed to let us change the Mission computer of Mig 29. That radically change the options that we have - including at a later date changing the radar with Uttam. For now, the Indian mission computer by itself frees up many options with all kinds of AA weapon (the radar and AA missile dont have to talk, they talk through the mission computer (every sensor and weapon now talks to mission computer). AG weapon,targeting pods, EW etc. many things can be now diversified.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:It was standing at 55% and MP got it to somewhere in the late 60s or early 70s.

Unless my memory is failing me, I don't believe I have seen a fleet serviceability of 75% or above for the Su-30MKI.
I read somewhere 80% number was achieved at one point. Will try to dig it up.
Scratch that. The supposedly 80% number was for the MiG-29K (after all the time taken to fix it), not the MKI.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/MrityunjayRagh2/sta ... 744SLBfIiA ---> The most awaited aircraft is here presenting Su-30MKI from No 222 Squadron "Tigersharks". If you wanna make this piece a part of your home's wall then continue reading below. Please RT if you find it worth it.

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Indianising the Flanker: Necessity, Challenges and the Future
https://militarycognizance.com/2022/05/ ... nd-future/
22 May 2022
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... pZqkr08LSg ---> IAF's Jammu AFS is now reportedly capable of hosting Su-30 MKIs: Local media.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Keeping my fingers crossed that the announcement will be the Super Sukhoi upgrade....

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... DrN21ZIecA ---> A much awaited development around this bird. Will be breaking it on Alpha Defense Telegram channel tonight and video (tomorrow morning).

Image
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:Keeping my fingers crossed that the announcement will be the Super Sukhoi upgrade....

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... DrN21ZIecA ---> A much awaited development around this bird. Will be breaking it on Alpha Defense Telegram channel tonight and video (tomorrow morning).
Could be this....

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... DrN21ZIecA ---> Looks like work is finally moving ahead on this. Although now these suites will likely be integrated onboard some of the existing Sukhois in IAF fleet.

^^^^ tweet above (20 June 2022) is in response to his own tweet below (29 Nov 2021)...

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... DrN21ZIecA ---> Report: IAF planning to ink a deal with Russia for 12 Su-30 MKI with advanced electronic warfare (EW) capabilities next year. Will be used in a role similar to USN's EA-18 Growlers.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... XYqZBSEkaw
The Su-30MKIs to receive a next generation EW suite. A comprehensive EW upgrade program has been initiated. Part of it will be done by CASDIC.

Team has initaed feasibility study of integrating EW suite. More details around pods in video tomorrow.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

JTull: Thank you so much. So Wolfpack was right about the EW suite :)

Hopefully the deal for the 12 attrition replacement Su-30MKIs can also get confirmed by CCS this year.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by SidSoma »

Don't we have indigenous solutions for this?
mody
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by mody »

12 additional su-30MKIs can come with the Al-41S engines. The extra power would help if we are planning to use the aircrafts specially for EW role.
I doubt the EW pods would be purchased from Russia. That is not their strong point. It will most likely be a mix of DRDO developed stuff along with Israeli pods. The SDR will mostly be Israeli.
JTull
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by JTull »

Not sure if following is connected

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... PIFsYyr3_A
Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has been awarded a new multi-million dollar deal for the purchase of Scorpius-SP Airborne Self Protection Jammer pods with Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) technology (ELL-8222SB)....."for an air force in Asia".

Scorpius-SP utilises Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) & a range of sophisticated ECM techniques, providing protection against all Air-to-Air (A/A) + Surface-to-Air (S/A) threats in a dense radar-guided weapon environment.

Based on IAI-ELTA's best-selling ELL-8222 pod
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