Indian Army Aviation

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Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Starting a new thread, as the Indian Army's Aviation Corps is growing with both phoren and local helicopters, among other aircraft.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

India Raises New Aviation Brigade Near LAC In Eastern Sector, Equipped With Armed Version Of Advanced Light Helicopters
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/india-r ... elicopters
18 Oct 2021

To increase surveillance along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the eastern sector, India has raised a new aviation brigade this year. The aviation brigade, which was raised in March this year, is based at Missamari in Assam, not far from Tezpur. The brigade has three squadrons equipped with assets like Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH), Cheetah helicopters and Heron unmanned aerial vehicles. It also has the weaponised version of the ALH, called Rudra. Reports say the main function of the new brigade will be to gather Intelligence, and conduct Surveillance and Reconnaissance or ISR along the LAC. However, the induction of Rudra helicopters suggests the aviation brigade is also being prepared for supporting the Indian Army during combat operations in the event of a war with China in Arunachal Pradesh. According to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), its maker, Rudra helicopters can be used in anti-tank, scout, fire support, armed reconnaissance and surveillance and escort roles. The helicopter is "ideal for operations from unprepared surfaces and slopes," HAL says.

The development comes at a time when India and China are locked in a tense military standoff along the LAC. While the standoff in Ladakh has received most attention, the situation along the LAC in the eastern sector has also worsened. Last month, at least 200 Chinese soldiers tried to enter Indian territory near Tawang. At least one new report claimed that India foiled China's incursion bid and temporarily detained a few Chinese soldiers. A few days before the incursion bid in Tawang, Chinese soldiers had transgressed nearly 5 km into Indian territory in Uttrakhand's Barahoti, putting Indian forces in the Central sector of the LAC on alert. The latest round of the Corps Commander-level talks between the Indian Army and the People's Liberation Army failed to make forward movement on the disengagement of troops in eastern Ladakh.

After the talks, India said that the Chinese did not come up with any "forward looking proposals" on the issue of disengagement and was "not agreeable" to India's "constructive suggestions" for the resolution of issues at the remaining friction points in eastern Ladakh. China accused India of making "unreasonable and unrealistic demands". The two countries are likely to maintain heavy deployment along the LAC and in the depth areas on their sides through the winter this year.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by ParGha »

For context -- the Capital Expenditure (CAPEX) on Army Aviation has already outstripped Mechanized Forces (previously the most expensive arm of the Indian Army). Expect this trend to continue, minus a brief reversal 2026-31 while Arjuns and Abhays are scheduled for induction, in the long-run.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Atmavik »

missamari air base

[Picture Removed]
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Do we have clarity as to what is the total planned capacity of the army aviation over the next 30 years?

IE, how many brigades or divisions it is expected to move at one time.

How many attack helicopter regiments per tank division or per corps.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Atmavik wrote:missamari air base
Please provide links to images when posting.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 94370?s=20 ---> Indian Army is raising multiple Combat Aviation Brigades:

Each such brigade will have:

- Two LUH/Cheetah squadron
- One gunship sqn (ALH-WSI/LCH)
- One UAV squadron

Plus maintenance and support flights.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Looking forward to HAL's LUH replacing the HAL Cheetah/Chetak in the future...

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 00512?s=20 --->

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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by jaysimha »

This I came across in Linkedin ( not able to copy the photos or paste the link)

TATA Advanced Systems Limited
We are very excited to share that Tata Advanced Systems (TASL), overcoming harsh weather conditions and difficult terrain, has successfully completed SRE project at the Army Aviation Base, Partap Pur, Leh, which is one of the most challenging project sites.

Senior Army Officers has highly appreciated the dedication and professionalism of the TASL team.

Hats off to our team for achieving such an incredible feat and for taking the organisation to newer heights.
There is a appreciation letter signed by
Lt. Col. Anuj Sharma
Commanding officer
30 ( Independent)
Reconnaissance and
Observation Flight
Dt: 31 Nov 2021
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Atmavik »

ernest wrote:My prayer is being answered, all too quickly :shock: :D

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... CfSE3U5zrA
Days after Navy indicating they might order more ALH Mk3, Indian Air Force has now indicated it might go for more ALH MK4s (ALH-WSI Rudra).
With Helina recently tested on a Rudra in Ladakh, and report below mentioning high-alt ops, seems things might align
More Dhruv / Rudra for our mountains
Why is IAF not ordering more LCH ? Maybe lack of ATGM ?
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by John »

Atmavik wrote:Why is IAF not ordering more LCH ? Maybe lack of ATGM ?
We are seeing an evolution in the battlefield IMO with UAV taking over role for not only recon but also Close air support. Attack helicopters will evolve into platforms to control UAVs and utilize them to provide targeting information for stand off weapons carried by the helos. So you don’t need them in large nos IMO.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

John wrote:
Atmavik wrote:
Why is IAF not ordering more LCH ? Maybe lack of ATGM ?
We are seeing an evolution in the battlefield IMO with UAV taking over role for not only recon but also Close air support. Attack helicopters will evolve into platforms to control UAVs and utilize them to provide targeting information for stand off weapons carried by the helos. So you don’t need them in large nos IMO.
The role of armr and attack heptrs appears to be a issue of much thought.
ATGM and MANPADS have proliferated to a very dangerous extent..
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Atmavik wrote:Why is IAF not ordering more LCH ? Maybe lack of ATGM ?
It's easy to integrate ATGM with a helo. But building a helo ant training manpower is a time consuming process. If this is the thought process. Then we have a problem.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

ks_sachin wrote: The role of armr and attack heptrs appears to be a issue of much thought.
ATGM and MANPADS have proliferated to a very dangerous extent..
I wonder if the active protection systems are going to help in improving helo survivability.

Second what role manned and unmanned teaming will have on attack helo employment. IMO, teaming with drones will make attack helo much more leathal than before. Panchi is such a lost opportunity in this regard.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bala »

All this talk about UAV is great but none of the powers are scaling back their helos. When they do then India can consider the same. Helos are required for quick mobility especially in difficult areas like mountain peaks. The Desi Helos have matured enough and I see no reason why they cannot be inducted in large numbers and few or more can be sold to other nations. The Saga of Desi designed systems was held up by powerful import lobbies, now given KungFlu, Wars and Sanctions, India has a better hand and freedom to go full throttle on Desi Maal. There are no other options now.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

bala wrote:All this talk about UAV is great but none of the powers are scaling back their helos. When they do then India can consider the same. Helos are required for quick mobility especially in difficult areas like mountain peaks. The Desi Helos have matured enough and I see no reason why they cannot be inducted in large numbers and few or more can be sold to other nations. The Saga of Desi designed systems was held up by powerful import lobbies, now given KungFlu, Wars and Sanctions, India has a better hand and freedom to go full throttle on Desi Maal. There are no other options now.
We r not talking helps but attack helos..
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Manish_Sharma »

John wrote:
Atmavik wrote:
Why is IAF not ordering more LCH ? Maybe lack of ATGM ?
We are seeing an evolution in the battlefield IMO with UAV taking over role for not only recon but also Close air support. Attack helicopters will evolve into platforms to control UAVs and utilize them to provide targeting information for stand off weapons carried by the helos. So you don’t need them in large nos IMO.
US is retiring 100s of ApacheD helis to replace them with ApacheE attack helicopters. UAVs have their place but dedicated attack helicopters have their place. I never saw this argument when Apaches were ordered by India only for indigenous Swadeshi LCH this argument is being forwarded. US is even working on SB01-Defiant to replace apaches!

Surprising these nuggets are missing when we import but the moment there is talk of Swadeshi there are strange arguments given.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by John »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
John wrote:
We are seeing an evolution in the battlefield IMO with UAV taking over role for not only recon but also Close air support. Attack helicopters will evolve into platforms to control UAVs and utilize them to provide targeting information for stand off weapons carried by the helos. So you don’t need them in large nos IMO.
US is retiring 100s of ApacheD helis to replace them with ApacheE attack helicopters. UAVs have their place but dedicated attack helicopters have their place. I never saw this argument when Apaches were ordered by India only for indigenous Swadeshi LCH this argument is being forwarded. US is even working on SB01-Defiant to replace apaches!

Surprising these nuggets are missing when we import but the moment there is talk of Swadeshi there are strange arguments given.
I was opposed to Apache purchase fyi. I didn’t say we didn’t need attack helos just that we don’t need as many.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bala »

The LCH is getting to Apache level capability and very soon we may wonder why we spent money on Apache imports. Chalk it up to our industries learning curve. I am hoping the MOD realizes this from a historical perspective and going forward it is Atmanirbhar all the way. There is enough talent within the nation and the Indian industries are getting more mature and capable.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

bala wrote:The LCH is getting to Apache level capability and very soon we may wonder why we spent money on Apache imports. Chalk it up to our industries learning curve. I am hoping the MOD realizes this from a historical perspective and going forward it is Atmanirbhar all the way. There is enough talent within the nation and the Indian industries are getting more mature and capable.
108+ to you Sir!!!
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by KSingh »

bala wrote:The LCH is getting to Apache level capability and very soon we may wonder why we spent money on Apache imports. Chalk it up to our industries learning curve. I am hoping the MOD realizes this from a historical perspective and going forward it is Atmanirbhar all the way. There is enough talent within the nation and the Indian industries are getting more mature and capable.
What Apache level? It doesn’t have FCR, it has never even tested an ATGM and the users/developers are yet to deem it necessary to even fit a self defence suite on it

LCH wasn’t even made to compete with the Apache
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bharathp »

bala sir -
apache's have capability to fire 16 hellfires NOW
LCH MAY fire at most 4 nag sometime next year (my guess)
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Atmavik »

^^^ no need to compare Apache and LCH, different class and role

anyway if the order of navy + air force for ALH comes thru it will mean about 440 helos in service, welcome departure from the token orders we got used too.

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 21/photo/1

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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by John »

bharathp wrote:bala sir -
apache's have capability to fire 16 hellfires NOW
LCH MAY fire at most 4 nag sometime next year (my guess)
ALH are equipped with twin launchers for Helina but I was under impression LCH is supposed to carry 2 quad launchers and 2 twin launcher which should equal 12.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bala »

Let us not despair. ATGM is just a matter of time. You give the orders for LCH and things happen by magic, so much behind the scenes work is going on. We have bright people solving problems and making things happen. LCH is not Apache yet but will be around 65%-80% there which is good enough. Let not good be the enemy of best.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bharathp »

agree with above.
I dont think we need apache level capabilities if we can get 60% of the capability for 50% of the cost - more importantly if most of that cost stays in India paying for Indian jobs, upskilling Indian scientists for IMRH based attack helos.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

There was no need for the Indian Army's Aviation Corps to get the AH-64 Apache. Just playing a game of prestige with the Indian Air Force. The IAF on the other hand loathes the other services getting any fixed or rotary winged aircraft. The IAF believes that "flight" is only their domain. I remember when the Indian Army raised her Aviation Corps in the 80s, the IAF was dead set against it.

The six Apaches for the Indian Army are due to arrive in 2023. All the while, the LCH waits for mass orders. Reportedly 114 are planned for the Indian Army, but only 1 LSP has been delivered to date and 5 more are on order.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Vips »

Capt Abhilasha Barak becomes Indian Army’s first woman combat aviator.

Captain Abhilasha Barak became the first woman officer to join the Army Aviation Corps as a combat aviator after completing the combat army aviation course.

She was awarded the coveted wings along with 36 other army pilots by the Director-General and Colonel Commandant of Army Aviation during a valedictory ceremony held at the Combat Army Aviation Training School in Nashik.

Captain Barak hails from Haryana and was commissioned into the Army Air Defence Corps in September 2018. She is the daughter of Col S Om Singh (retd).

Captain Barak did many professional military courses before joining the Army Aviation Corps.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bala »

HAL to supply 12 light utility helicopters to armed forces
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 707237.ece
July 31, 2022
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has received the Letter of Intent from the Services for the manufacture of 12 Light Utility Helicopters (LUH), which have been designed and developed indigenously. At the same time, nine Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) have been manufactured against the sanction of 15 limited series production (LSP) variants and are in the process of being handed over to the Services.In another development, the Army is in negotiations for acquiring 11 more Apache AH-64E attack helicopters from the U.S.

“Production work has begun. Two LUH are in an advanced stage of completion,” a HAL source confirmed to The Hindu. In addition, the Request For Quotation (RFQ) for the larger order for LUH RFQ has also been issued, one source stated.HAL is in the process of responding to the RFQ and expects to conclude the related issues in one or two years, the source stated. Last November, the Defence Acquisition Council approved the procurement of an initial lot of 12 LUH, six each for the Army and the Air Force. LCH induction In June, the Army raised its first LCH squadron in Bengaluru which will move to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Eastern Command once complete next year.

“Of the 15 LSP on order, nine LCH have been produced. They are in acceptance stage,” HAL sources said. As of now the Army is looking at acquiring around 111 LUH and 95 LCH, officials stated. Army sources had said that seven LCH units are planned for combat role in the mountains, with each having 10 helicopters. The IAF is also scheduled to raise its first LCH squadron in the next few months.

More Apache attack helicopters
The Cabinet Committee on Security had earlier given sanction for the procurement of 39 AH-64 Apache attack helicopters from the U.S. Following this, IAF had inducted 22 Apaches procured under a deal signed in September 2015. The government had ruled that any further Apache procurements would go to the Army. In line with this, India signed a deal for six more Apaches at a cost of around $800 million in February 2020. Deliveries which were to begin in the first half of 2023 have been delayed by around 10 months due to the COVID-19 pandemic, a defence official said. They are now scheduled to arrive in early 2024, an Army source said.In addition, the Army is pushing the case for the remaining 11 Apaches of the 39 sanctioned, the official added.

A senior official of aircraft manufacturer Boeing had recently confirmed that they were in talks with the Indian Army for additional Apaches.The Army has three Aviation Brigades at Leh, Missamari and Jodhpur. It operates around 145 indigenous Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH), 75 of which are the Rudra-weaponised variants. Another 25 ALH Mk-III are on order and scheduled to be inducted within two years. The Army operates around 190 Cheetah, Chetak and Cheetal helicopters and are in dire need of their replacement, while the IAF operates close to 140 of them.

In all, the IAF operates a wide mix of around 500 rotary platforms which includes around 90 Mi-17s, over 130 Mi-17V5s, over 70 ALH, including the weaponised variants, 22 Apaches, one squadron of Mi-35 attack helicopters and 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy lift helicopters. In the utility helicopter category, the Army and the IAF together have a requirement of more than 400 helicopters and are meant to replace the vintage Cheetah and Chetak helicopters in service. This requirement was to be met jointly by the LUH and the 200 Ka-226T utility helicopters to be built with technology transfer from Russia. However, the Ka-226T deal has been delayed by several years over indigenisation issues and with the LUH now ready and the geopolitical situation due to the war in Ukraine, the deal is all set to be dropped, officials had stated. The LUH has come up well, but will take time for sufficient numbers to come in, Army sources had stated.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by basant »

Not sure if this has been posted, but a worthy watch to understand the challenges of Army aviation.

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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by bharathp »

^^ what exactly is 4"km" of endurance? isnt endurance amount of time a heli stays afloat with with its fuel? shuoldnt it be a measure in time units?
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Good catch. Typo error.

Probably like 3 - 4 hours of endurance? I am making assumptions here, perhaps IR can clarify.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

US $930 million for six AH-64E Apache helicopters for the Army Aviation Corps :)

That is US $155 million per Apache.

So The Indian Army Apaches Will Sport Desert Camo
https://www.livefistdefence.com/so-the- ... sert-camo/
19 Jan 2023
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by hgupta »

Why does it cost $155M apiece? Does it cover other stuff such as missiles and ordnances? The price of an Apache has certainly escalated from its baseline price of $22M 20 years ago.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

hgupta wrote:Why does it cost $155M apiece? Does it cover other stuff such as missiles and ordnances? The price of an Apache has certainly escalated from its baseline price of $22M 20 years ago.
The price will contain weapons, spares, tools, etc for the AAC to set up their Apache ground base. $155 million is not the unit cost of the AH-64E Apache, but this is still exorbitantly expensive.

I am not sure why they could not share facilities and associated equipment with the Air Force that also operates the same chopper. Perhaps it is not logistically possible or perhaps the IAF and AAC just do not see eye to eye with each other. Not any secret that the IAF, like other air forces the world over, loathe their sister services taking over air duties.

If someone more knowledgeable can advise as to why the AAC is buying these six Apaches over the home grown LCH Prachand, I am all ears.

I am eager to learn (no sarcasm or pun intended).
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by hgupta »

I am so frustrated with MoD, IA, and IAF's actions when it comes to weapons procurement. After more than 20 years of watching the myopic actions of MoD and its armed services when it comes to weapons development and procurement and comparing the results with other countries such as Pakistan, Turkey, and South Korea, I am sorry to say that I have no choice but to say that corruption is rampant throughout the armed services and they all want their commissions after they get out of the armed services so they do anything they can to facilitate purchases of foreign weapons in order to earn their commissions. We need Parrikar back at the helm. The current defense minister is not doing his job of reforming the ministry and the armed services.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Indian Army to receive it's first AH-64 Longbow Apaches in 2024.

Aero India 2023- Apaches for Indian Army under construction
The first Boeing AH-64E fuselage for the Indian Army has rolled off the assembly line, with Boeing preparing to deliver the six attack helicopters early next year.

Alain Garcia, vice-president of business development in India, Boeing Defense, Space & Security and Global Services, told Janes that the first AH-64E fuselage for India had come off the assembly line at the company's Indian factory in Hyderabad on 19 January.

“The fuselage has been transported to Mesa in the United States for assembly and systems integration,” Garcia told Janes during the Aero India 2023 show being held in Bangalore from 13 to 17 February.

“All six completed helicopters will be delivered to the Indian Army in the first half of 2024,” Garcia said. Janes has learnt that the attack helicopters being delivered to the Indian Army are the latest Version 6 aircraft.

“We hope to deliver the aircraft rapidly within a few months,” Garcia said.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:US $930 million for six AH-64E Apache helicopters for the Army Aviation Corps :)
That is US $155 million per Apache.
A procurement made purely out of inter-service rivalry, wasting precious resources that could be far better utilized. It is bad enough that the Army pushed for this, but it is worse that nobody in the MoD had either the brains or the guts or both to just say No. The buck eventually stops with the Raksha Mantri and his boss of course.
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Re: Indian Army Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:A procurement made purely out of inter-service rivalry, wasting precious resources that could be far better utilized. It is bad enough that the Army pushed for this, but it is worse that nobody in the MoD had either the brains or the guts or both to just say No. The buck eventually stops with the Raksha Mantri and his boss of course.
The unit cost of the Apache does not include all the kit that comes in the Army contract, but nevertheless....

https://twitter.com/Defencecore/status/ ... 99969?s=20 --->

* 06 Apache - $900 million
* 15 Prachand - $500 million

* Unit cost - $150 million
* Unit cost - $30 million (est. LSP)

Do you think, the 5 times cost difference is justified?

What if we had spend the difference amount on the R&D?

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