Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

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ramana
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Saying these are purchases for Tejas sales abroad is a joke when HAL has not fulfilled the IAF requirements!
All we can conclude is that IAF when given the freedom to buy will go buy foreign even if its minuscule numbers.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Prem Kumar wrote:
India does not have indigenous alternatives for a precision guidance kit for dumb bombs. Sudarshan project didn't succeed and wasn't followed up.
So we have zero development research work going on Precision Guidance Kit currently?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Cyrano »

Except China every UNSC permanent seat is represented
LoL ! If Sweden or Japan made such stuff, we could integrate them as well, its our bird after all !

But seriously, creating too many options may indicate IAF is not yet clear about where and how to use Tejas. If that's the case the work to do is elsewhere.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Karan M »

Cyrano wrote:
Except China every UNSC permanent seat is represented
LoL ! If Sweden or Japan made such stuff, we could integrate them as well, its our bird after all !

But seriously, creating too many options may indicate IAF is not yet clear about where and how to use Tejas. If that's the case the work to do is elsewhere.
On the contrary, it means they are serious about using it as a full blown multirole platform. That too, the Mk1 itself. No better news in reality.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Karan M »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:
India does not have indigenous alternatives for a precision guidance kit for dumb bombs. Sudarshan project didn't succeed and wasn't followed up.
So we have zero development research work going on Precision Guidance Kit currently?
PG HSLD with and without wings
LRGB with and without wings
SAAW

How many more does one need?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by A Deshmukh »

KSingh wrote: Derby(ER)
R73
Python V
ASRAAM
Astra
SAAW
HAMMER
JDAM
Paveways
All available on this tiny machine, this might be the most dynamic system in the Indian fighter fleet
Perfect platform to exporting customized packages.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Kartik »

SidSoma wrote:So in 1.5 months mk1 production will close!!!!
Mk1 single seater production will close. But the production will switch completely to the trainers, some of which were on the jigs already. In addition, the focus will now be on the Mk1A.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

I suspect that JDAM is more about Potential Malaysia export Order, they would want LCA to have no Israeli weapons.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SidSoma »

Kartik wrote:
SidSoma wrote:So in 1.5 months mk1 production will close!!!!
Mk1 single seater production will close. But the production will switch completely to the trainers, some of which were on the jigs already. In addition, the focus will now be on the Mk1A.
What is most worrying is the fact that the Tejas prod line will shut down for a brief period of time, when the trainers are done with but the MK1A has not yet got the clearance for prod. This will happen even if more Mk1s are ordered TODAY.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Given that the airframe being very similar to the FOC and almost all subsystems are qualified on other a/c such as PVs/LSPs, the production can probably commence, but delivery may have to wait. Like with LSPs of LCH. Remember, even TDs, PVs and LSPs and FOCs were all different, even in terms of hardware.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by YashG »

Aditya_V wrote:I suspect that JDAM is more about Potential Malaysia export Order, they would want LCA to have no Israeli weapons.
Seems quite likely. But social chatter on LCA has gone silent.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by mody »

Karan M wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
So we have zero development research work going on Precision Guidance Kit currently?
PG HSLD with and without wings
LRGB with and without wings
SAAW

How many more does one need?
TARA guidance kit for HSLD bombs should be our equivalent of the JDAM. I think what has been procured is the latest JDAM-ER variant with a range of upto 80Kms. Even this should have been similar to the winged variant of the G-series (Garuda, Garuthma Gautam, Gaurav), PG bombs. I think the guidance for TARA and the G-series munitions should be INS+IRNSS/GPS based, similar to JDAM.

As per the reports, purchase was made from IAF emergency funds, it was probably to get a few ready to use high precision low cost bombs as fast as possible.
Nothing to do with potential sale to Malaysia etc. IMHO. IAF would not spend from its emergency funds for that. Apart from the Griffin-IIIs and maybe Paveway-II, the JDAMS once inducted will be the only air to ground precision guided weapons that Tejas will currently field. The SAAW has been tested from Su-30MKI and Jaguars only. I think the integration and testing with Tejas will begin. Besides SAAW is a much smaller weapon.
Till the TARA kit equipped HSLD bombs, which should be almost equivalent to the JDAM and the G-series weapons enter production, the Tejas will have to make do with Griffin-III, Paveway-II and JDAMs (maybe Hammer too). By the way, none of these have been tested from the Tejas so far. All the tests carried out so far, have been from Su-30MKI only.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by brar_w »

An integrated J-series of direct attack munitions should be a big boost in the export/foreign sales market when pitching the Tejas. One reason why it is such a high priority for export orders is the fact that Boeing can crank out close to 200 kits/day or nearly 50,000 a year which allows foreign customers to order in quantity and build up stock in a relatively short amount of time. No other western PGM comes close to those production rates or delivery slots for some of those quantities w/o a need for long lead time or a huge initial stockpile to compensate for slow delivery of large orders at some of the alternative suppliers. Since the USAF and USN have largely built up their depleted stockpiles of JDAM between 2017 and 2020 (buying nearly 50K kits between those years) there is a large chunk of the production capacity available to export customers wanting early or expedited delivery slots.
Last edited by brar_w on 01 Apr 2022 18:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SinghS »

This is a purchase made for utilizing the allocated funds lest they have to be returned. I guess these funds were meant to be paid to Russia, which can't be done now.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by rajsunder »

Looks like Malaysia order is locked in LCA's favor. Turkey is throwing everything at Malaysia to secure an order for its yet to fly hurjet. They are ready t provide manufacturing contracts to Malaysia for every conceivable thing they can think.


https://themalaysianreserve.com/2022/03 ... build-hub/
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by skumar »

Unable to understand why India has not thrown everything it has on the aircraft engine program. Hoping that Modi government outsources the entire program to any of our engineering giants like L&T (single co that can then outsource individual components).
The Safran collaboration on 125KN engine will take ~10 years, we cannot wait.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by yensoy »

rajsunder wrote:Looks like Malaysia order is locked in LCA's favor. Turkey is throwing everything at Malaysia to secure an order for its yet to fly hurjet. They are ready t provide manufacturing contracts to Malaysia for every conceivable thing they can think.
https://themalaysianreserve.com/2022/03 ... build-hub/
Turks want to set up a plant so Malaysians can work there and assemble planes. Problem is they don't know that Malaysians (Malays rather) aren't the working type, eventually they will need to bring in Indians or other immigrants to do the grunt work. Malays prefer simple things like exporting palm oil to settle their dues, and India will take palm oil as payment.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by YashG »

rajsunder wrote:Looks like Malaysia order is locked in LCA's favor. Turkey is throwing everything at Malaysia to secure an order for its yet to fly hurjet. They are ready t provide manufacturing contracts to Malaysia for every conceivable thing they can think.


https://themalaysianreserve.com/2022/03 ... build-hub/
I share your optimism but you're drawing a wrong inference. Malaysian tender is just a race between KA50 & Tejas. So turkey is throwing so much, cz its #1 not in the race & wants to get in
#2 For a plane that has not even flown, doesn't matter what you promise.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by kit »

yensoy wrote:
rajsunder wrote:Looks like Malaysia order is locked in LCA's favor. Turkey is throwing everything at Malaysia to secure an order for its yet to fly hurjet. They are ready t provide manufacturing contracts to Malaysia for every conceivable thing they can think.
https://themalaysianreserve.com/2022/03 ... build-hub/
Turks want to set up a plant so Malaysians can work there and assemble planes. Problem is they don't know that Malaysians (Malays rather) aren't the working type, eventually they will need to bring in Indians or other immigrants to do the grunt work. Malays prefer simple things like exporting palm oil to settle their dues, and India will take palm oil as payment.

Turks dont like palm oil ?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by kit »

skumar wrote:Unable to understand why India has not thrown everything it has on the aircraft engine program. Hoping that Modi government outsources the entire program to any of our engineering giants like L&T (single co that can then outsource individual components).
The Safran collaboration on 125KN engine will take ~10 years, we cannot wait.
there is a national program

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/indi ... of-the-iaf
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Vips »

YashG wrote:
rajsunder wrote:Looks like Malaysia order is locked in LCA's favor. Turkey is throwing everything at Malaysia to secure an order for its yet to fly hurjet. They are ready t provide manufacturing contracts to Malaysia for every conceivable thing they can think.


https://themalaysianreserve.com/2022/03 ... build-hub/
I share your optimism but you're drawing a wrong inference. Malaysian tender is just a race between KA50 & Tejas. So turkey is throwing so much, cz its #1 not in the race & wants to get in
#2 For a plane that has not even flown, doesn't matter what you promise.
Latest offer from Turkey is joint manufacuring of Hurjet in Malaysia, a stake/participation in the TFX program and joint development of a Helicopter.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ritesh »

kit wrote:
yensoy wrote: Turks want to set up a plant so Malaysians can work there and assemble planes. Problem is they don't know that Malaysians (Malays rather) aren't the working type, eventually they will need to bring in Indians or other immigrants to do the grunt work. Malays prefer simple things like exporting palm oil to settle their dues, and India will take palm oil as payment.

Turks dont like palm oil ?
They believe in being pseudo European and eat olive oil.you see. Mediterranean influence.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SidSoma »



Just posting this here
Last edited by ramana on 06 Apr 2022 19:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana.
kit
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by kit »

ritesh wrote:
kit wrote: Turks dont like palm oil ?
They believe in being pseudo European and eat olive oil.you see. Mediterranean influence.
:mrgreen: of course
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by kit »

Vips wrote:
YashG wrote:
Latest offer from Turkey is joint manufacuring of Hurjet in Malaysia, a stake/participation in the TFX program and joint development of a Helicopter.
I like this joint manufacturing of a paper plane :mrgreen:

Image
ramana
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

brar_w wrote:An integrated J-series of direct attack munitions should be a big boost in the export/foreign sales market when pitching the Tejas. One reason why it is such a high priority for export orders is the fact that Boeing can crank out close to 200 kits/day or nearly 50,000 a year which allows foreign customers to order in quantity and build up stock in a relatively short amount of time. No other western PGM comes close to those production rates or delivery slots for some of those quantities w/o a need for long lead time or a huge initial stockpile to compensate for slow delivery of large orders at some of the alternative suppliers. Since the USAF and USN have largely built up their depleted stockpiles of JDAM between 2017 and 2020 (buying nearly 50K kits between those years) there is a large chunk of the production capacity available to export customers wanting early or expedited delivery slots.

It is not for an export promotion that these JDAM_ER are being bought. It is after the realization of the numerous targets and what it takes to defeat them.
The gap in IAF thinking was the 250 kg ordnance.
SAAW is too small and IGB is too big.
The PGMS based on HSLD (450Kg) are mostly LGBs.
When they issued the requirements for the 125 and 1000 kg bombs they did not think of this.
The procurement of Hammer after Rafale was deployed indicates this.
JDAM is less costly than Hammer.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Thakur_B »

So, we have
Paveway-II
Griffin-3
SPICE
HAMMER
JDAM
SAAW
Gaurav
Gautham
Garuthma
NGLGB?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by vimal »

Thakur_B wrote:So, we have
Paveway-II
Griffin-3
SPICE
HAMMER
JDAM
SAAW
Gaurav
Gautham
Garuthma
NGLGB?
Is there a word for group of bombs? If not then lets call it a Circus!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Back in Bangalore for a brief holiday.
Happened to meet two LCA TPs one of who was much in the news when the first LCA sq was in the news.
The other a colleague of one who twitters.
Incidental meeting but such an unassuming lot.
AMCA progressing. Trainer PM is now PM for AMCA.
Mk2 quite bullish on as well as the twin-engined bird. Uttam bullish on.
IJT 6 spin tests done and team wants to complete the prog even if IAF does not adopt it - to justify investment.
On UKR - RU - "The bubble we knew (re RU armed forces) and suspected has truly burst"!!!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Thakur_B wrote:So, we have
Paveway-II
Griffin-3
SPICE
HAMMER
JDAM
SAAW
Gaurav
Gautham
Garuthma
NGLGB?
All I see is proliferation of export prospects.. It's be a great product positioning opportunity!

"If your ordnance is not Chinese, the Tejas can launch it!"
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Thakur_B »

Forgot Garuda in the list.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by la.khan »

Thakur_B wrote:So, we have
Paveway-II
Griffin-3
SPICE
HAMMER
JDAM
SAAW
Gaurav
Gautham
Garuthma
NGLGB?
I heard of desi products SAAW, Garuda & Garuthma. But Gaurav & Gautham - what are these? :-?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Thakur_B »

la.khan wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:So, we have
Paveway-II
Griffin-3
SPICE
HAMMER
JDAM
SAAW
Gaurav
Gautham
Garuthma
NGLGB?
I heard of desi products SAAW, Garuda & Garuthma. But Gaurav & Gautham - what are these? :-?
https://mobile.twitter.com/delhidefence ... 32/photo/2

Garuthma (wing + tail) and Garuda (tail) are the programs from which Gaurav and Gautam are first products.

Honestly, due to lack of coverage and obfuscation, very little is now known about DRDOs new generation of smar munitions.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Roop »

ks_sachin wrote:On UKR - RU - "The bubble we knew (re RU armed forces) and suspected has truly burst"!!!
Meaning what (for the denser members of BRF, like me)? That these two gentlemen always knew/suspected the Russian military was a paper tiger and now events have proven their suspicions right?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Roop wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:On UKR - RU - "The bubble we knew (re RU armed forces) and suspected has truly burst"!!!
Meaning what (for the denser members of BRF, like me)? That these two gentlemen always knew/suspected the Russian military was a paper tiger and now events have proven their suspicions right?
That is the impression I got.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ShivS »

These bombs are not a circus.

The first guided dumb bombs were LGBs that were designed to ride reflected energy from a laser beam to a target - estimates are that they increased accuracy by a factor of 5-10. You can appreciate the impact that has on resources needed to carry out a mission.

However countermeasures were developed (smoke generators, oil fires etc) and under some conditions (dust, haze, low cloud) the LGBs do not work well.

That led to the JDAM where GPS plus INS and a combination of fins and strakes added to dumb bombs gave a far higher range of operating conditions. The range was similar but the operating envelope and resistance to jamming was far higher. Cost went up 2 to 3X.

At the same time over contested air space, especially a SAM rich environment you needed stand off weapons. Cruise missiles and air to surface missiles with genuine stand off capability were horribly expensive running into the millions of USD each. They are also big and a challenge to transport.

Enter the JSOW that married a set of foldable wings, fins and GPS/INS. These could deliver specialized bombs at stand off ranges of 50 km+. The cost went up to 25-50X a LGB, so we added terminal guidance via some EO or thermal mechanism to make sure that all that money gave you a (accurate) bang for the buck. There were many restrictions - the bombs are draggy and delicate - the launch profile needs to be very precise etc., but you get cruise missiles lite type capability at much lower costs and perhaps better accuracy.

As the aversion to any combat losses has grown we now want stand off capability for general purpose bombs too. The French added propulsion to a JDAM kit equivalent to make the hammer - costs approach the cost of a JSOW though. The Americans and Australians have added wings to a JDAM kit to make a JDAM-ER. For Indian usage the French approach is quite useful as in the Himalayas the range of a glide bomb is sharply reduced and the restrictive launch profile makes missions harder.

Within a decade we will see winged, propelled and networked swarms of these bombs - at horrible costs.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/Manish_K_Jha1/statu ... maNrJjKL1g
At @HALHQBLR I had great learning as how will it evolve with project Chief.Many things are turning true.India placed orders for American Direct Attack Munitions precision guided bombing kits to enhance capabilities of #LCATejas. Can target beyond 80kms.Fits on thrust/weight ratio
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Kartik »

Kakarat wrote: https://twitter.com/Manish_K_Jha1/statu ... maNrJjKL1g
At @HALHQBLR I had great learning as how will it evolve with project Chief.Many things are turning true.India placed orders for American Direct Attack Munitions precision guided bombing kits to enhance capabilities of #LCATejas. Can target beyond 80kms.Fits on thrust/weight ratio
So this a real confirmation of an order for JDAMs. A good weapon, cost effective and a great option to have integrated for export campaigns since the JDAM is a popular weapon.
Last edited by Rakesh on 11 Apr 2022 17:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Do not requote images when replying. Your post has been edited.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

This is not the right thread for this. I will move some posts.

Added Later: Posts Moved To This Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2544727#p2544571
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

vimal wrote:Is there a word for group of bombs? If not then lets call it a Circus!
Try looking at this scenario the other way around.

That wide variety of weaponry gives the end user (the IAF) much more flexibility with the Tejas platform. What looks like an unnecessary expenditure is actually the opposite. Could the IAF integrate JDAM or Hammer onto a Russian platform (i.e. Su-30MKI or MiG-29UPG)? Technically it could be possible, but it raises other issues such as the OEM of these munitions not agreeing to that integration. A good example would be MBDA not agreeing to integrate Meteor on the Tejas Mk1A fitted with Elta's ELM-2052 AESA radar. But when the Uttam comes in on the second batch of Mk1As, MBDA would gladly integrate Meteor at that stage. Another example would be to integrate BrahMos-NG or BrahMos-A on a P-8I platform. Again, the OEM would not agree.

A large variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry, while expensive upfront, gives the IAF a great tactical flexibility to exploit both the Tejas and the particular set of weaponry it carries for a specific mission. Now if there was no Tejas, the IAF would have to buy an entire new platform (Rafale to carry Hammer, F-teens to carry JDAM, etc). So if the OEM is willing to integrate their weaponry onboard the Tejas, then it should be pursued. The OEM will only be willing if the IAF approaches the OEM, which is what is happening in this case.

So which is more expensive - buying a circus of weaponry or buying a whole new platform to carry a specific set of weaponry?

Also, allowing Tejas to carry a buffet of weaponry increases her odds of survivability in combat missions. What can be safely achieved with stand off weapons, is just not feasible with dumb bombs. And each type of stand off weapon (Hammer, SAAW, JDAM, Paveway, Griffin, Gaurav, Gautham, Garuthama, etc) have their distinct tactical advantages. Again, this is a plus point for the Tejas. In a future conflict, if the IAF can successfully mitigate high attrition of the Tejas - by using a variety of stand off weapons - it will directly pay off into the narrative that the Tejas is a cost-effective, combat aircraft.

So other countries who cannot afford high end (or even mid level) fighter fleets, will look favourably at the Tejas to do much of their grunt work. One foreign country may have invested a large portion of their air-to-ground munitions in a variety of JDAMs, another country perhaps largely with Paveways, yet another country with another type...but Tejas can work with them all. Why force that country to invest in a whole new set of air to ground weaponry (that comes with their new plane), when Tejas can seamlessly integrate with their current stock of air-to-ground weaponry? And the host country's air force selling the platform uses that weaponry as well. So win-win all around and will translate into sales for HAL.

But the greatest advantage in investing in this weaponry buffet is the IAF onlee. If the Mk1A and Mk2 can carry a plethora of weaponry, then why the need to buy triple digit numbers (i.e 114 MRFA) of Rafale F4, F-15EX, Gripen E, F-21, Su-35, Eurofighter Tyhpoon, MiG-35, F-18SH? I have said this before and I will say again, it is one thing to read of the Mk1A's capabilities on paper and it is damn impressive. But just wait till the Mk1A flies and the IAF will realize that it has a golden goose on its hands. If another 36 - 54 Rafale F4s can be sufficient, then why the need for 114 of them? So then just perhaps the IAF will scale down her acquisition of MRFA numbers and invest in Mk1As and Mk2s.

I don't know the exact dollar figure of the cost per flight hour of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A, but I am 100% confident that it will be lower than any of the contestants in the 114 MRFA competition. If Tejas can destroy high value targets with similar results as any of the contestants, they why the need to invest in 114 foreign fighters? If you can successfully destroy a high value target (and return home safely) for $10,000...why spend $40K or $30K or even $20K to achieve the exact same result? If you can successfully achieve an air superiority mission with an Astra Mk2 (range < 160 km), then why the need for a more expensive Meteor (150 km) or AIM-120D (< 160 km)?

I sum up with Air Commodore KA Muthanna's (Retd) - a former HAL test pilot on the Tejas program - wise words, "Tejas is our plane and we can do whatever we want with it." Tactical flexibility is worth its weight in gold immeasurable.
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