Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

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SidSoma
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SidSoma »

1. The radar being used is still the MMR with the Antenna of the 2032 replace by Slotted wave guide antenna by LRDE. Please correct me if we have shifted to the complete 2032 for the prod versions.
2. If point 1 is true, could we have added the terrain Following mode with Indian source code ?
fanne
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

Could it be related to us buying/developing/collaborating on TFR after the December Heli crash? Perhaps we are doing that on all flying platform. Someone made a smart choice, took all helis/planes/transports, say we need TFR for all, what is the cost. At that high number, most costs will make sense. We will now see this capability in all platforms.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

IR on Twitter
Now LGBs and drop tanks are cleared for all stations except outboard station. This picture is for day-ops Test flights and certification for night-ops are also complete. There is no aircraft is IAF inventory which offers higher accuracy of weapon delivery.
10:23 AM · Aug 6, 2020

+

For A2A
WVR: R73 is cleared. Integration of ASRAAM and Python 5 on going. BVR: Derby cleared. Astra integration has begun.
SPJ: first ELL8222. Next desi pod (prototype complete)
IRST: things are cooking.

+

2 fighters, 8 trainers (remaining). All fighters should take to the air in 5-6 weeks.
ashishvikas
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

^^

HAL is making up for some lost time. Recently SP34/LA2030 took to the air. SP27 took to the air in mid-Nov. That's 8 aircrafts in 4 months.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 8wHhQ&s=19

2 fighters, 8 trainers. All fighters should take to the air in 5-6 weeks.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SidSoma »

So in 1.5 months mk1 production will close!!!!
fanne
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

wow, that is some speed. Pleasantly surprised and very happy to be wrong that HAL will do more delays (as in past).Even sjha was saying yesterday in IAH that most of the production issues are behind us. I hope the lesson learned and improvements are well documented and disseminated to other DPSU, OFBs
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

I would say HAL should beat the schedule and do some MK1A before the deadline. With a MK1A bird in hand, it would be very hard to justify any ad hoc, fill in the gaps imports.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ArjunPandit »

SidSoma wrote:So in 1.5 months mk1 production will close!!!!
Can't we continue with more mk1s till the time mk1as come
Last edited by ArjunPandit on 28 Mar 2022 02:41, edited 1 time in total.
fanne
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

it will be building 16 trainers before MK1A production starts.
ashishvikas
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

Tweets by Indrani1_Roy

Okay. There is a lot about LCA Tejas production rate by HAL. Now that we know SP-27 to SP-35 have taken to the air within 4.5 months, does it mean that HAL is capable of producing Tejas at 24 aircrafts/year.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: please read on.
1. Unlike many things, the production rate of fighters once the underlying technology has stabilized is a directly related to the number of fighters ordered. It is fairly complex endeavour. But let us understand the first principles.
2. The primary problem is that the machinery, tools, jigs etc. that are required to build state-of-the-art fighters are a few times more expensive than a fighter itself. Therefore, how many such machinery, tools, jigs should be brought is directly related to number of orders.


3. There is a simple rule of thumb that seems to hold for most modern fighter aircrafts. Typically, one builds one line for a rate of 8-12 aircraft per year. At financially (to keep the cost of each fighter) manageable, one should at least run an assembly line for at least 5 yrs.
4. You can see HAL do this. But this is nothing new to HAL. When Rafale had not won international orders, Dassault had slowed down production rate to 8 aircrafts per year to the French AF + Navy. Once the export orders came in, they scaled back up.
5. The first assembly line is the most expensive. Because along with the hangar, workshop, you have to build test facilities, runways etc. etc.

That's why, if you have a low production rate, say 8 aircraft per year, the per unit cost shoots up.
6. This is where HAL has an unfair advantage over our pvt. players. They already have these facilities build up and can amortize these facilities for new lines. Moving on.

If you wanted higher production rates, there are two paths.
7. The production rate of any assembly line is defined by its slowest part. One identifies this part and brings in automation. This has high upfront cost, but saves time, manual labour and generally improves quality.
8. But there is a limit to how much one can speed up an assembly line. The second method is to simply duplicate it, doubling the production rate. Nothing fancy.

But you see, you get to use more automation and testing facilities and runways etc.


9. The better utilization of these machines and facilities leads to better amortization of the capital costs, bringing the per unit cost down. This is the industry is called "the kicking in of economies of scale"
10. This percolates all the way down from full aircraft, down to primary-level parts, to secondary-level parts and so on.

In short, More orders, mean faster delivery at better quality and lower per unit costs.
11. The Americans are a champion of this. It is really worth learning. And the Chinese, Koreans Turks are learning it rapidly.

We, in India, like to count beans, and have handed over most of the power to the bean counters.
12. Our bean-counters and their masters (aka the politicians) have overhauled procurement policies more often than using them to make any procurements!

Meanwhile, technologist driving production, test & design (aka second class citizens) die a slow death.
13. Frustrated, many give up. Others get used to the pace. In the meanwhile, a new policy is drafted only to be replace in <5 years. Chalta hai!

Let me give you an example of how we Indians have mercilessly killed our aviation industry.


14. The Tata group is one of the best, patriotic and productive conglomerates of India. They were selected to build the C295s. Again the simple rule of thumbs applied there. We wanted TASL to build a handful of C295s.
15. They argued the obvious. To set up a financially-viable line of even assembling the aircraft from parts, the minimum number is 8 aircraft per year for 5 years (rough figures), i.e. 40 aircrafts.
16. 16 C295s will be imported from Europe, the remaining 40 will be assembled in TASL. This simple decision known to every Tom-Dick-&-Harry took 10 years! But thankfully, it was at least taken.
17. To Tata's credit, they flatly said, any number below this we can't make financially-viable line. It is simply not possible for us.

Let's come to HALs and GoIs and IAFs exploitation of each other with respect to Tejas.
18. IAF placed an order for 20 Tejases first. HAL agreed.
Remember our rule of thumb.
A few years latter, IAF placed an order of another 20 Tejases. HAL agreed again.

Then, there were reports, but Tejas almost costs the same as an Su-30. Ofcourse! Su-30 was ordered in the 100s.
19. It is miracle that Tejas still is the most economical light aircraft in the world currently. It costs as much as JF17 or FA-50. But, its a miracle.

HAL, GoI and IAF deserve each other. It hurts me immensely to say this. But this is the truth!
20. So all of you who think that HAL and IAF has turned a corner, I haven't seen any of it yet.

Those who have followed me over the years know how much I have fought for these organizations. To work for IAF was my dream. That I did not, is a lament I will take to my death.
21. But, I am saying things as I see it. This sudden burst of production is the unclogging of the COVID affected pipeline. 3 cheers to the management and workers to stick to the April deadline.

But this is not sustainable.
22. There is no reason (forget incentive) for HAL to increase production rate of Mk1s beyond 8 aircraft per year up to the first year of Mk1A deliveries. That time is 3 years away. In that time HAL has only 18 trainers to deliver + 8 Mk1As to deliver.
23. Remember thumb-rule #1. 8 aircraft per year per assembly line. Current outstanding orders only allow financial viability to keep 1 line going at the minimum viable rate.
After that they will increase to 16 aircraft per year, i.e. 2 lines.


24. So, moderate your expectations and pray for export orders, because I don't see our procurement mechanism taking any actions in spite of knowing the simplest of thumb rules of aircraft manufacturing.

Jai Hind!

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... kanFcpR-jg

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1508 ... 48418.html
AkshaySG
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by AkshaySG »

So unless we bag a significant export order (2 sqd+) or the IAF decides to do a 180 and orders further Mk1/Mk1As to fill the gap then it's hard to see why HAL would need to increase rate beyond 8 per year.

With the additional Mig29s and Su30s possibly being out of the picture now a follow up order of Tejas should be the sensible option

But oh well...
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

This is going on Page 1 of this and other Tejas threads on BRF.

What a wonderful set of tweets.
A Deshmukh
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by A Deshmukh »

IAF can order another set of trainers (same version).
More trained pilots will accelerate induction when Mk1A arrives.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by KSingh »

AkshaySG wrote:So unless we bag a significant export order (2 sqd+) or the IAF decides to do a 180 and orders further Mk1/Mk1As to fill the gap then it's hard to see why HAL would need to increase rate beyond 8 per year.

With the additional Mig29s and Su30s possibly being out of the picture now a follow up order of Tejas should be the sensible option

But oh well...
The first year of MK1A deliveries (2024-5) will see 4-6 deliveries, scaling up to 16/year so all 83 are delivered in a 5 year period (2028-29). HAL has published this production timeline multiple times and it is driven by IAF requirements, even for MRFA they stipulate 14/year over a 8 year delivery window
Last edited by KSingh on 29 Mar 2022 05:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by k prasad »

KSingh wrote:
AkshaySG wrote:So unless we bag a significant export order (2 sqd+) or the IAF decides to do a 180 and orders further Mk1/Mk1As to fill the gap then it's hard to see why HAL would need to increase rate beyond 8 per year.

With the additional Mig29s and Su30s possibly being out of the picture now a follow up order of Tejas should be the sensible option

But oh well...
180?? Where are you getting these numbers from?

The first year of MK1A deliveries (2024-5) will see 4-6 deliveries, scaling up to 16/year so all 83 are delivered in a 5 year period (2028-29). HAL has published this production timeline multiple times and it is driven by IAF requirements, even for MRFA they stipulate 14/year over a 8 year delivery window
He meant do a 180-degree turn :-)
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

wrt 14,15,16, and 17:
There will be a lot more C295s coming.
The use case is compelling.
Many, many variants are envisaged.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

fanne wrote:wow, that is some speed. Pleasantly surprised and very happy to be wrong that HAL will do more delays (as in past).Even sjha was saying yesterday in IAH that most of the production issues are behind us. I hope the lesson learned and improvements are well documented and disseminated to other DPSU, OFBs
The biggest will be crack the whip.
And ensure IAF has enough pilots to absorb the production.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

basant wrote:IR on Twitter
Now LGBs and drop tanks are cleared for all stations except outboard station. This picture is for day-ops Test flights and certification for night-ops are also complete. There is no aircraft is IAF inventory which offers higher accuracy of weapon delivery.
10:23 AM · Aug 6, 2020

+

For A2A
WVR: R73 is cleared. Integration of ASRAAM and Python 5 on going. BVR: Derby cleared. Astra integration has begun.
SPJ: first ELL8222. Next desi pod (prototype complete)
IRST: things are cooking.

+

2 fighters, 8 trainers (remaining). All fighters should take to the air in 5-6 weeks.
I thought Tejas already test-fired the Python 5 recently.
And about time Astra integration has begun!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:wrt 14,15,16, and 17:
There will be a lot more C295s coming.
The use case is compelling.
Many, many variants are envisaged.

For people like us the use case is compelling. But is it also for the IAF and MOD?

Or they are going to use 56 aircraft deal to replace avro and then wait 15 years for a different platform to replace the An 32.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Yes, it is. 56 was the initial order.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Atmavik »

ramana wrote:
I thought Tejas already test-fired the Python 5 recently.


And about time Astra integration has begun!
Python 5 flutter issue has been fixed and it was fired abt a year ago. Astra integration is going on. hopefully a test fire is not far away
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

#LCA LEAD-IN FIGHTER-TRAINER

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15083 ... QSxnqKtyWQ

Image

Of the 3 SRAAMs listed above, which would you rate as most lethal?
Harsh Vardhan Thakur >>> I think, the one not on the list yet. Astra IR.

Dual rack for the Derby & Astra BVR missiles will be a good addition. PAF has acquired those with the new J-10CPs for the PL-15.
Harsh Vardhan Thakur >>> Astra has Dual Racks. That'll happen.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by yensoy »

ramana wrote:wrt 14,15,16, and 17:
There will be a lot more C295s coming.
The use case is compelling.
Many, many variants are envisaged.
After the destruction of Antonov factory just weeks ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_S ... tion_Plant, yes it is indeed compelling.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Apart from news from months ago, is there any other official information on ELTA's ELM-2052 being the FCR for the first squadron of Mk1A? I ask this because HVT, in response to query on 2052 integration, simply replied that, 'Uttam is Great. It's integrated.'
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

So Basically there 16 IOC + 14 FOC fighters flying and by the end of Apr 2022 all FOC single seat fighters are done away with.

Time IAF and IN order more MK1/1A along with pre orders of MK2 and ORCA, so that these can be produced in the highest n umbers possible.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

You mean TEDBF and not ORCA? Probably 3 to 4 Mk1A sqs would give cushion against Mk-2 delivery schedules.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SinghS »

Tejas is getting JDAM according to this news:

https://defenceaviationpost.com/lca-tej ... ed-states/

I am wondering whether it could soon be the most sought after light fighter, with this kind of versatile armament and reliability,
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Manish_Sharma »

SinghS wrote:Tejas is getting JDAM according to this news:

https://defenceaviationpost.com/lca-tej ... ed-states/

I am wondering whether it could soon be the most sought after light fighter, with this kind of versatile armament and reliability,
Similar indigenous products and Indian PGMs, no order, only trials

SAAW 125kg
Gaurav, Gautam 500kg
Garuda, Guruthma 1000kg
NGLGB
NGARM
Helina, SANT, Dhruvastra
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SinghS »

Manish_Sharma wrote: Similar indigenous products and Indian PGMs, no order, only trials

SAAW 125kg
Gaurav, Gautam 500kg
Garuda, Guruthma 1000kg
NGLGB
NGARM
Helina, SANT, Dhruvastra
That will happen in double quick time, once we face a real war with China and in first few weeks the imported maal dries up. This has been the nature of Indian (Hindu) society all along the history. Defeat after defeat and thousands of years of slavery, yet we have not learnt the lessons.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

Tweet by Kesari Dhwaj

It makes Tejas an attractive air-to-ground platform with stand-off precision guided capability. Good from international marketing perspective as well. At ~$60K/piece, just $50Mn will get you a very healthy numbers of JDAM.

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 2CzYA&s=19
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Boy, we have ordered Unkle's ammo without testing (remember Python-5?)! Forget monsoon, summer, winter, spring, desert, mountain, and what not.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by dkhare »

Another story regarding JDAMs on IAF Tejas Mk1s
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2022-03-29

This picture was tweeted by @DefenceDecode
Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

India does not have indigenous alternatives for a precision guidance kit for dumb bombs. Sudarshan project didn't succeed and wasn't followed up. So, ordering JDAM kits makes sense.

OTOH, 2 things rankle:
1) Where are similar orders for SAAW, Garuda, Garuthma etc ?
2) Why are imported maal not subject to the same never-ending tests that "ghar ki murgi" is subject to ?

This is clearly a services issue and not something we can blame on MoD or MoF
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Cool. :)
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

All reports are from the same press release. And India Today is the worst for bringing in Hammer when the story is about JDAMs.
I also think that it's the kit and bomb and not just the kit.
The reason is the kit is developed for the Mk 80 series bombs just like the Hammer was.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Atmavik »

basant wrote:Boy, we have ordered Unkle's ammo without testing (remember Python-5?)! Forget monsoon, summer, winter, spring, desert, mountain, and what not.

Actually Python-5 integration shows the advantage of owning our platform. There was a flutter issue but the vendor insisted on fixing it and we found a solution. we could have said we r happy R 73 and Asram but we now have one more option
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by KSingh »

SinghS wrote:Tejas is getting JDAM according to this news:

https://defenceaviationpost.com/lca-tej ... ed-states/

I am wondering whether it could soon be the most sought after light fighter, with this kind of versatile armament and reliability,
Except China every UNSC permanent seat is represented

Derby(ER)
R73
Python V
ASRAAM
Astra
SAAW
HAMMER
JDAM
Paveways

All available on this tiny machine, this might be the most dynamic system in the Indian fighter fleet
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Does the JDAM come with the bomb or its extra?

And what about integration trials drama?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Same with Hammer purchase.
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