Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

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ks_sachin
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

@Admiral you have the patience to repeat the above ad nauseam. I wish posters read things and thought about your golden nuggets!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh,

I have a slightly different take from you in terms of availability of munitions for Tejas.

Every foreign vendor that is supplying munitions for Tejas is doing so because India has munitions that are very similar to what the vendor is offering. If they don't agree for integration. They will loose one of the largest defense market forever.

But such is the nature of the world and India is getting good at playing the game.

The only issue for me is the lack of an indigenous jet engine.

But I guess that we will get it in not so distant future.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Sachin Saar: Thank You

Pratyush: One thing at a time. Focus on getting Tejas integrated with every possible weapon out there. The deal has already been signed with GE for the 83 Tejas Mk1As to be powered by the F404 turbofan. Dr Satheesh Reddy has also said that Mk2 will come with the F414 turbofan. If Uncle Sam wants to play hardball over this, India will cross that bridge if and when it comes.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

I am entering the murky world of Saab's marketing :)

We all remember Exercise Gagan Shakti in 2018. It was exactly four years ago to the month. The IAF was able to generate six sorties, per platform, per day on the Tejas Mk1. The IAF deployed a total of 8 Tejas Mk1s. The exercise ran for a length of 14 days. I believe Tejas serviceability was at 80% during the exercise.

Now translate that exercise into a real world scenario with this plethora of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry that the Tejas can now carry. From air superiority to SEAD to precision ground strike to whatever else in a single day. Six missions per day, per platform. Now extrapolate that across 83 Tejas Mk1As with a fleet availability of 75%. See the value achieved. Stress on the airframe will not be too hard either, as the aircraft is largely built out of composites. Combine that platform with a Rafale F3R or Super Sukhoi or Mirage 2000I for support (if required).

A single pilot will not be able to do six separate missions per day. Each mission is quite exhausting on the human body. So rotation of pilots will happen, if required. But see the value in having a plethora of weaponry and the platform which carries that weaponry. If Rafale is omnirole, then Tejas is equally up to that task. The IAF has got a winner on its hands.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote:The IAF has got a winner on its hands.
If only the IAF leadership supported that winner to the maximum extent possible! Any other country in our position would've ordered 60 Mk1s, 200 Mk1As and 250 Mk2 aircrafts, and pushed exports to every possible market.

We're still dreaming of 42 sqns and holding China to a stalemate when we have far lower than that number, and in fact, I think we should probably be looking at 55-60 combat sqns to be truly capable of a winning two-front war. Tejas is the easiest way to make those numbers and capabilities for cheap, even with the present Mk1A platform.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by YashG »

k prasad wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The IAF has got a winner on its hands.
If only the IAF leadership supported that winner to the maximum extent possible! Any other country in our position would've ordered 60 Mk1s, 200 Mk1As and 250 Mk2 aircrafts, and pushed exports to every possible market.

We're still dreaming of 42 sqns and holding China to a stalemate when we have far lower than that number, and in fact, I think we should probably be looking at 55-60 combat sqns to be truly capable of a winning two-front war. Tejas is the easiest way to make those numbers and capabilities for cheap, even with the present Mk1A platform.
This observation gets repeated every 50 posts . why are not ordering more LCAs. cz our sena is lusting for 114 mmrca.

we will continue to wait for LCHs and LCAs and hope this will end soon.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by A Deshmukh »

Rakesh wrote:A single pilot will not be able to do six separate missions per day. Each mission is quite exhausting on the human body. So rotation of pilots will happen, if required.
If there is a gap in production between FOC and Mk1A, we can do a repeat order of FOC trainers.
Train more and more pilots that can utilize Mk1A as and when they come.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

A Deshmukh wrote:
Rakesh wrote:A single pilot will not be able to do six separate missions per day. Each mission is quite exhausting on the human body. So rotation of pilots will happen, if required.
If there is a gap in production between FOC and Mk1A, we can do a repeat order of FOC trainers.
Train more and more pilots that can utilize Mk1A as and when they come.
So how will this work?
You will pull pilots out of active sq and have them twiddle their thumbs after type conversion?
Remember trainers here are mostly for conversion training and not flying training as new pilots from academy are not likely to be posted to a sq without active a/c
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by RishiChatterjee »

ks_sachin wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote: If there is a gap in production between FOC and Mk1A, we can do a repeat order of FOC trainers.
Train more and more pilots that can utilize Mk1A as and when they come.
So how will this work?
You will pull pilots out of active sq and have them twiddle their thumbs after type conversion?
Remember trainers here are mostly for conversion training and not flying training as new pilots from academy are not likely to be posted to a sq without active a/c
With CATS coming the future will be dominated by twin-seaters.. Even HVT thinks so,
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

^^point being?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Kersi D »

Thakur_B wrote:So, we have
Paveway-II
Griffin-3
SPICE
HAMMER
JDAM
SAAW
Gaurav
Gautham
Garuthma
NGLGB?
Does IAF still use these munitions
1) Durandal
2) Belouga
3) AS 7
4) BL 755

What about CBU 105, bought four jaguar and Mirage 2000 ? I think its a very potent weapon.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

HAL Successfully Integrates & Tests AASM Hammer From Tejas
https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/04/29 ... rom-tejas/
29 April 2022
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Cybaru »

Must read for everyone!
+100

Tejas being able to carry out SEAD role is a huge game changer! FEBA will remain free of any threats once cleaned and Tejas can continue sweeping it...
Rakesh wrote:
vimal wrote:Is there a word for group of bombs? If not then lets call it a Circus!
Try looking at this scenario the other way around.

That wide variety of weaponry gives the end user (the IAF) much more flexibility with the Tejas platform. What looks like an unnecessary expenditure is actually the opposite. Could the IAF integrate JDAM or Hammer onto a Russian platform (i.e. Su-30MKI or MiG-29UPG)? Technically it could be possible, but it raises other issues such as the OEM of these munitions not agreeing to that integration. A good example would be MBDA not agreeing to integrate Meteor on the Tejas Mk1A fitted with Elta's ELM-2052 AESA radar. But when the Uttam comes in on the second batch of Mk1As, MBDA would gladly integrate Meteor at that stage. Another example would be to integrate BrahMos-NG or BrahMos-A on a P-8I platform. Again, the OEM would not agree.

A large variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry, while expensive upfront, gives the IAF a great tactical flexibility to exploit both the Tejas and the particular set of weaponry it carries for a specific mission. Now if there was no Tejas, the IAF would have to buy an entire new platform (Rafale to carry Hammer, F-teens to carry JDAM, etc). So if the OEM is willing to integrate their weaponry onboard the Tejas, then it should be pursued. The OEM will only be willing if the IAF approaches the OEM, which is what is happening in this case.

So which is more expensive - buying a circus of weaponry or buying a whole new platform to carry a specific set of weaponry?

Also, allowing Tejas to carry a buffet of weaponry increases her odds of survivability in combat missions. What can be safely achieved with stand off weapons, is just not feasible with dumb bombs. And each type of stand off weapon (Hammer, SAAW, JDAM, Paveway, Griffin, Gaurav, Gautham, Garuthama, etc) have their distinct tactical advantages. Again, this is a plus point for the Tejas. In a future conflict, if the IAF can successfully mitigate high attrition of the Tejas - by using a variety of stand off weapons - it will directly pay off into the narrative that the Tejas is a cost-effective, combat aircraft.

So other countries who cannot afford high end (or even mid level) fighter fleets, will look favourably at the Tejas to do much of their grunt work. One foreign country may have invested a large portion of their air-to-ground munitions in a variety of JDAMs, another country perhaps largely with Paveways, yet another country with another type...but Tejas can work with them all. Why force that country to invest in a whole new set of air to ground weaponry (that comes with their new plane), when Tejas can seamlessly integrate with their current stock of air-to-ground weaponry? And the host country's air force selling the platform uses that weaponry as well. So win-win all around and will translate into sales for HAL.

But the greatest advantage in investing in this weaponry buffet is the IAF onlee. If the Mk1A and Mk2 can carry a plethora of weaponry, then why the need to buy triple digit numbers (i.e 114 MRFA) of Rafale F4, F-15EX, Gripen E, F-21, Su-35, Eurofighter Tyhpoon, MiG-35, F-18SH? I have said this before and I will say again, it is one thing to read of the Mk1A's capabilities on paper and it is damn impressive. But just wait till the Mk1A flies and the IAF will realize that it has a golden goose on its hands. If another 36 - 54 Rafale F4s can be sufficient, then why the need for 114 of them? So then just perhaps the IAF will scale down her acquisition of MRFA numbers and invest in Mk1As and Mk2s.

I don't know the exact dollar figure of the cost per flight hour of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A, but I am 100% confident that it will be lower than any of the contestants in the 114 MRFA competition. If Tejas can destroy high value targets with similar results as any of the contestants, they why the need to invest in 114 foreign fighters? If you can successfully destroy a high value target (and return home safely) for $10,000...why spend $40K or $30K or even $20K to achieve the exact same result? If you can successfully achieve an air superiority mission with an Astra Mk2 (range < 160 km), then why the need for a more expensive Meteor (150 km) or AIM-120D (< 160 km)?

I sum up with Air Commodore KA Muthanna's (Retd) - a former HAL test pilot on the Tejas program - wise words, "Tejas is our plane and we can do whatever we want with it." Tactical flexibility is worth its weight in gold immeasurable.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Cybaru wrote:Must read for everyone!
+100

Tejas being able to carry out SEAD role is a huge game changer! FEBA will remain free of any threats once cleaned and Tejas can continue sweeping it..
Check this out...

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... H0vesOUa7A ---> BEL has started fabrication of Low band Jammer pod for LCA Tejas.

- It is based on DARE design.
- Will be light, compact and power efficent.
- It will be capable of engaging threats transmitting across a 1GHz to 6GHz waveband.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... H0vesOUa7A ---> Very significant and can turn the Tejas into a day one SEAD asset. A Tejas equipped with this can escort an entire formation. Literally a compact Mirage 2000, and actually getting ahead of it in many ways especially the Mk1A version.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin wrote:^^point being?
You will have pilots trained for Tejas planes.
HAL workforce will retain work skills.
And the IAF needs trainers anyway.
Of course, IAF can keep writing off squadrons per the master plan.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:^^point being?
You will have pilots trained for Tejas planes.
HAL workforce will retain work skills.
And the IAF needs trainers anyway.
Of course, IAF can keep writing off squadrons per the master plan.
Ramana do they need trainers or conversion trainers. There is a difference is there not?
While is it nice to have HAL retail work skills not sure IAF needs that many trainers.
Does anyone here know how many a/c we had / have at MOFTU?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

The article shows how Tejas Mk1 is transforming into a strike fighter:

https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/04/29 ... rom-tejas/

Image

If so a few more are not bad even if you call them by any other name.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Picklu »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:
You will have pilots trained for Tejas planes.
HAL workforce will retain work skills.
And the IAF needs trainers anyway.
Of course, IAF can keep writing off squadrons per the master plan.
Ramana do they need trainers or conversion trainers. There is a difference is there not?
While is it nice to have HAL retail work skills not sure IAF needs that many trainers.
Does anyone here know how many a/c we had / have at MOFTU?
What's being hinted is that the two seaters can have additional role; other than conversion trainers, they can be mothership of CATS. So, the additional two seater airframes, if ordered, would not be wasteful.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Piklu the Ruston took us how long?
By the time CATS comes along the trainers could be retired.
Let’s be real.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Anujan »

Rustom armed with CGLM was a perfectly usable drone system.

People are going ga ga over Bayraktar drones, we could have had a similar system years back

But no, we wanted Reaper/Global hawk or nothing!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Anujan wrote:Rustom armed with CGLM was a perfectly usable drone system.

People are going ga ga over Bayraktar drones, we could have had a similar system years back

But no, we wanted Reaper/Global hawk or nothing!
Oh. I was not aware of that. Not really followed the UAV development. Thanks for the information.
In which case let's get as many trainers as we can.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Anujan wrote:Rustom armed with CGLM was a perfectly usable drone system.

People are going ga ga over Bayraktar drones, we could have had a similar system years back

But no, we wanted Reaper/Global hawk or nothing!

And got nothing at $3B for 30 drones!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:
Anujan wrote:Rustom armed with CGLM was a perfectly usable drone system.

People are going ga ga over Bayraktar drones, we could have had a similar system years back

But no, we wanted Reaper/Global hawk or nothing!

And got nothing at $3B for 30 drones!
But I distinctly remember having read here itself the armed forces were of the view that drones like the Bayraktar were overhyped as they were so easy to bing down. There was a serious question of the survivability of these types of drones in a dence AD env. I could be mistaken but I think it was either Karan or Rakesh who were part of the conversation.

And was Rustom completely operationally ready?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Sachin, while it's true that drones like TB2 are a little overhyped as strike platforms.

But they exceptionally valuable as surveillance platforms. The non acquisition of Panchi by the Indian armed forces in 2016-17 is a tremendous missed opportunity for the Indian armed forces.

The delays in rustum would not be as painful as it is. Because, of the wide spread production of Panchi. Production of drones as an additional advantage of developing our own supplier ecosystem.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:Sachin, while it's true that drones like TB2 are a little overhyped as strike platforms.

But they exceptionally valuable as surveillance platforms. The non acquisition of Panchi by the Indian armed forces in 2016-17 is a tremendous missed opportunity for the Indian armed forces.

The delays in rustum would not be as painful as it is. Because, of the wide spread production of Panchi. Production of drones as an additional advantage of developing our own supplier ecosystem.
But I did hear that at a tactical level there is quite a bit of induction of drones.
Perhaps we need a mix of the tactical and strategic.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Up until now it was searcher family. My issue is with a lack of domestic industrial capacity. Because of imported product.

With potentially a procurement of 76 rustum . I am thinking that the industrial issue will be solved.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/15 ... llWobY_aNw ---->

- French AASM Hammer all-weather air-to-surface Precision-Guided Munition integrated with LCA Tejas.
- Next in line Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) & DRDO's Smart Anti Airfield Weapon (SAAW).
- Astra air-to-air missile integration likely by end of year.

Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by chetak »

HAL has commenced the Main Airframe Fatigue Test (MAFT) of LCA Mk1 airframe at its Ground Test Centre of the Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) in Bengaluru.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -tejas-mk1

Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Tanaji »

Love the marigold flowers in the pic… quintessentially Indian!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by chetak »

HAL Commences Main Airframe Fatigue Test On TEJAS MK-1
https://asiapost.live/hal-commences-mai ... ejas-mk-1/
April 27, 2022
The airframe is the same for the TEJAS MK-1 in service and the more capable TEJAS MK-1A, 83 of which the IAF has contracted for

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has commenced the Main Airframe Fatigue Test (MAFT) of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) TEJAS MK-1 airframe at the Ground Test Centre of the Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC), Bangalore, it said on Wednesday.

“These tests will be carried out over a period of eight to nine years. The successful completion of the MAFT will qualify the TEJAS [Air Force] MK-1 airframe for its full service life,” it stated. As per the military airworthiness requirements, the MAFT had to demonstrate the capability of the airframe to withstand four times the service life, it noted.

The airframe is the same for the TEJAS MK-1 in service and the more capable TEJAS MK-1A, 83 of which the IAF has contracted for. The MK-1A is expected to roll out in the next couple of months.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by jaysimha »

Tanaji wrote:Love the marigold flowers in the pic… quintessentially Indian!
You dint notice the banana plant in the sides ??
.
wonderfull...
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... U9jNOuf4uQ ---> LCA Tejas firing Derby beyond visual range air to air missile.

Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Kakarat »

Some High Res pics of latest production models from front line deployment
https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1524 ... 1p6btV0tVw
The LCA Tejas is an indigenously developed 4.5 generation fighter aircraft of #IAF.

Built with an intuitive Human-Machine Interface concept, the aircraft can carry a potent mix of air to ground armament and Beyond Visual Range missiles.
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by sanjayc »

Defend Pakistan
@def_pak14
As per multiple sources Malaysia has rejected HAL Tejas & has selected KAI T-50 Golden Eagle as LIFT/LCA for Malaysian Air Force.
Don't know if this is just a hoax by a Paki
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

per Indranil, SP34 has flown a month ago. So only 2 LCA FOC planes remain. Then we will shift to trainers and then MK1As. It would be good if HAL can surprise us with few MK1A (not FOC converted to MK1A for testing) for fiscal year 2022 (ends March 2023)
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Last of the inaccuracies ironed out by Kuntal (...ignore the engine nozzle, its a placeholder from AMCA)
Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Kartik »

fanne wrote:per Indranil, SP34 has flown a month ago. So only 2 LCA FOC planes remain. Then we will shift to trainers and then MK1As. It would be good if HAL can surprise us with few MK1A (not FOC converted to MK1A for testing) for fiscal year 2022 (ends March 2023)
As per Grp Cpt HVT, SP-35 too has flown and that was a month ago. That leaves just 1 single seater Tejas Mk1, SP-36 left to fly.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

After Brahmos, Philippines Looking To Buy LCAs And LCHs
https://ommcomnews.com/india-news/after ... s-and-lchs
16 May 2022
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by la.khan »

sanjayc wrote:
Defend Pakistan
@def_pak14
As per multiple sources Malaysia has rejected HAL Tejas & has selected KAI T-50 Golden Eagle as LIFT/LCA for Malaysian Air Force.
Don't know if this is just a hoax by a Paki
Rakesh wrote:After Brahmos, Philippines Looking To Buy LCAs And LCHs
https://ommcomnews.com/india-news/after ... s-and-lchs
16 May 2022
While I have no problem with export of Brahmos & LCHs, what exactly is this fascination for exporting Tejas to other countries? :eek: Our air force has falling squadron numbers, they needed Tejas inducted years back, HAL can't deliver 15-16 jets/year and yet we go look for export customers? :shock: How do we plan to produce these extra numbers? Will the jets for export be at the expense our requirement? BTW, what is the highest number of Tejas that HAL delivered in a fiscal year? IIRC, it was 12/year (I could be wrong and am willing to be corrected).

Don't get me wrong as I, for one, think Tejas Mk1/Mk1A/Mk2 are fine birds, built to our need. Tejas, as is, can go participate in defexpos, airshows, exhibitions so that we can see how our machine compares with others. But let us not accept any orders from other countries till HAL can get its act together :roll:
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ragupta »

Export will demand increase production and accordingly more production facility can be set, IAF requirement and decisions does not require more Tejas at this stage. Mk1A is still not ready for full scale production I guess, if needed production capacity can be scaled up, with itsy bitsy order, who is going to set up mass production, order in 100s not 10s to set up production capacity.
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