Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Feb 2022 16:57

Looks like 5 FOC LCAs are going to UK for exercise with F35s, Typhoons, Rafales and so on for five days.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 22 Feb 2022 18:08

Gyan wrote:I wrote a 20 page article around 2 years year back and posted on BRF & DFI. Using studies from F-16XL, I wrote that the drag for Delta wing is lesser compared to conventional swept back wing even though wing area of Delta is larger. Hence LCA has very good acceleration and range. It’s payload range matrix is better than Jaguar and almost near Mirage 2000. Off course everyone jumped on me and called the Article ridiculous. Now LCA MK1 has demonstrated a ferry range of 3200km. As it is a peace time ferry to international airport, thus real ferry range will be around 4000km. (So in a way, I feel vindicated) Now Indranil is also using example of F-16XL (the pivot of my article) to show Delta wing has 40% better range on twitter. Now I will go out on a limb again by claiming that LCA MK1 will soon mature enough to be equivalent to Mirage 2000 (with perhaps use of dual rack pylons, better drop tanks) with MTOW of 15 tons going upto 15.5 tons in LCA MK1A. And LCA MK1A performance, payload, range matrix will be better than Mirage 2000 (slightly)

^^^
Great to hear. Pl Post the link again.

There used to be a ballast of 200-300 Kgs in FOC for improving COG. Is that still there? Removal of that was to improve the weight of LCA. Either improved payload of increased range.

basant · Post by **basant** » 23 Feb 2022 00:22

Interesting discussion happened on Twitter. I am only posting the link of the first thread.

VatsRohit @KesariDhwaj
WOW!!!!
This is so amazing! Tells you the level of confidence which the IAF has on Tejas to pull-off this deployment. Because please remember, these exercises are equally about ability to deploy, and sustain assets so far from home base. Simply brilliant!

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Kartik A@kartachar
Also makes it clear that No.45 Sqdn's IOC Tejas need to be upgraded to FOC std. with IFR probe especially critical for mission flexibility. These 5 Tejas will surely be from No.18 Sqdn. Ideally speaking there should've been 1 more Mk1 bridging squadron before Mk1A.

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Nishthavaan @nishthavaan
Years ago there were reports that internal plumbing was available to support IFR for the IOC. Several other reports said they cannot be upgraded with IFR, possibly until MLU. Any update on this would be great!

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Kartik A @kartachar
@Indrani1_Roy @hvtiaf_ any possible way to confirm if the No.18 Sqdn IOC Tejas fighters can be upgraded to FOC std with the IFR probe added?

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Indranil Roy @Indrani1_Roy
It's over to you @hvtiaf_ . I don't know. I won't be surprised if they are.

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Nishthavaan @nishthavaan

Old reports https://mobile.twitter.com/AeroResearch ... 5585268736 I guess this work will require significant downtime, hence (a little early) MLU may be a better time.

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Kartik A @kartachar
Thanks, but this needs some more confirmation. I haven't seen the source of the statements that were made there. Ideally it should be possible, albeit the upgrade will be deeper & take longer. but need someone like @hvtiaf_ to confirm if it's indeed possible or not.

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Harsh Vardhan Thakur @hvtiaf_
Yes, it's possible just like on the prototype and It's planned.

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Kartik A @kartachar
Thank you sir. At the software level have the IOC & FOC jets been brought to the same release standard?

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Harsh Vardhan Thakur @hvtiaf_
Practically everything on the aircraft is driven by software. Flight controls, mission systems, sensors, displays, weapons, electricals, hydraulics, brakes, pressurisation, you name it. It'll be a while before everything becomes identical across the two tranches.

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Kartik A @kartachar
Replying to @hvtiaf_ @nishthavaan and 2 others So aren’t the FCS software release standards the same across the tranches now? Given that the full envelope hadn’t been opened up with IOC standard software.

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Harsh Vardhan Thakur @hvtiaf_
Replying to @kartachar @nishthavaan and 2 others
IOC has the full envelope. In the meantime, the prototypes have got further advanced modes like ALSR etc.

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Nishthavaan @nishthavaan
Thank you sir. Would I be correct to presume that this would require several weeks of work on each jet, given that the changes will be not only in the undercarriage but also in wings too? If critical plumbing is already in place, it could be still 2 to 4 weeks of downtime?

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Harsh Vardhan Thakur @hvtiaf_
Not sure. More than a few weeks of upgrade from IOC to FOC.

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Kartik A @kartachar
Replying to @hvtiaf_@nishthavaan and 2 others This sounds very doable then. Hopefully the IAF chooses to get it done before moving No.45 Sqdn out of Sulur AFS to somewhere up north. Having a small fleet of Tejas at one level of software standards versus the rest will be hard to maintain.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 23 Feb 2022 00:48

YashG wrote:
Gyan wrote:I wrote a 20 page article around 2 years year back and posted on BRF & DFI. Using studies from F-16XL, I wrote that the drag for Delta wing is lesser compared to conventional swept back wing even though wing area of Delta is larger. Hence LCA has very good acceleration and range. It’s payload range matrix is better than Jaguar and almost near Mirage 2000. Off course everyone jumped on me and called the Article ridiculous. Now LCA MK1 has demonstrated a ferry range of 3200km. As it is a peace time ferry to international airport, thus real ferry range will be around 4000km. (So in a way, I feel vindicated) Now Indranil is also using example of F-16XL (the pivot of my article) to show Delta wing has 40% better range on twitter. Now I will go out on a limb again by claiming that LCA MK1 will soon mature enough to be equivalent to Mirage 2000 (with perhaps use of dual rack pylons, better drop tanks) with MTOW of 15 tons going upto 15.5 tons in LCA MK1A. And LCA MK1A performance, payload, range matrix will be better than Mirage 2000 (slightly)
^^^
Great to hear. Pl Post the link again.

There used to be a ballast of 200-300 Kgs in FOC for improving COG. Is that still there? Removal of that was to improve the weight of LCA. Either improved payload of increased range.

Indranil or Jays are the definitive source on LCA aerodynamics.

basant · Post by **basant** » 23 Feb 2022 01:34

YashG wrote:...
There used to be a ballast of 200-300 Kgs in FOC for improving COG. Is that still there? Removal of that was to improve the weight of LCA. Either improved payload of increased range.

From Twitter:

Indranil Roy @Indrani1_Roy

No. They have not changed the airframe contours, CG or CG travel. Clean mass is also essentially the same. So aerodynamically, the airframe is almost unaltered. Therefore, testing with respect to airframe will be limited.

12:51 AM · Feb 19, 2022

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 23 Feb 2022 03:29

300kg can be for radar processing components with the scanning antenna in the cone? or put other backend components? why have a deadweight ballast?

basant · Post by **basant** » 23 Feb 2022 10:19

For center of gravity.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Feb 2022 11:01

300 kg of ballast was used when there was no radar.

With IFR probe, radar etc. that number is around 100 kgs now.

basant · Post by **basant** » 23 Feb 2022 11:23

AESA itself should further decrease the ballast given the weight increase by 40kg.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 23 Feb 2022 13:36

Rakesh wrote:I really hope this turns out to be true.

Long overdue for Tejas to take part in international air exercises. Good learning opportunity for Tejas crews.

Now it's official.

"IAF will participate in multi-nation air exercise #CobraWarrior at #RAF Waddington, UK from 6 to 27 Mar 22.

Five LCA #Tejas will participate in the exercise. C-17 aircraft will provide transport support."

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1496 ... kmgdR4YCwg

RishiChatterjee · Post by **RishiChatterjee** » 23 Feb 2022 20:11

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2022 20:16

Nick_S wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I really hope this turns out to be true.

Long overdue for Tejas to take part in international air exercises. Good learning opportunity for Tejas crews.
Now it's official.

Right On! The best news of the day! Thank you for posting Nick. Can't wait to see the pictures.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2022 20:20

I really wish Air HQ could do a documentary on this exercise. Although this is not the first international flight of the Tejas, this is a long journey (India to UK) to undertake. A nice documentary on the flight back and forth + the exercise itself. Would make all us jingos proud. If Air HQ does it, I will post that video on the first page of this thread

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:07

Actually blown away by the news of them sending such a new jet for a bilateral exercise and that too so far away from base support AND not with some low intensity force but the world’s most kinetic and experienced AFs (USAF, RAF etc) AND on top of this to fly against the bleeding edge- Typhoons, F15s, *F-35* etc.

The IAF really aren’t short of confidence in this jet are they?

+ that means 8 jets (basically half the available fleet) sent on 2 long range deployments within a month (Singapore and U.K.). Crazy stuff, I don’t seem to remember the IAF being so aggressive even with SU-30 deployments

Only sting in the tail is production and how few of these things there are around even now. Still no delivery updates, it’s been almost 6 months since the last new jet even flew. The last induction was almost a year ago?

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:12

++ is this the first time the IAF has engaged in such activities before the guys at TACDE have done their stuff?

Intriguing across the board, the IAF’s employment tactics of LCA aren’t even fully enshrined

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:37

KSingh wrote:Only sting in the tail is production and how few of these things there are around even now. Still no delivery updates, it’s been almost 6 months since the last new jet even flew. The last induction was almost a year ago?

Flights are happening and deliveries are occurring, but what we don't know are the tail numbers. LA-5023 had her first flight a little over three months ago. The IAF/HAL are no longer releasing that info for obvious reasons.

KSingh wrote:++ is this the first time the IAF has engaged in such activities before the guys at TACDE have done their stuff?

Intriguing across the board, the IAF’s employment tactics of LCA aren’t even fully enshrined

What happens at TACDE, stays at TACDE. Unlike other units, its operations are rarely ever discussed or published in the media. There have been no reports confirming any activity of Tejas with TACDE. The last time we heard about TACDE is when Group Captain Ashish Gupta was tragically killed in a MiG-21 crash, almost a year ago.

The sad irony of today's fatal MiG-21 crash
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2021-03-17
18 March 2021

We lost two very seasoned pilots in MiG-21 crashes last year - Group Captain Ashish Gupta and Wing Commander Harshit Sinha. It is sad that the IAF will only do piecemeal orders of local maal (40 Mk1s and 83 Mk1As), but they got time to invest in the 114 MRFA contest. The priorities are mind boggling. I am not against MRFA, even though there is no money for 114 of them. But I cannot understand why the IAF does piecemeal orders of local maal. The Mk1A contract should have been a triple digit order, considering the squadron shortage.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:47

Rakesh wrote:...

I’d like to believe that deliveries are happening behind the scenes but that doesn’t seem to be borne out by the PR or publicly available tail numbers seen at Sulur.

As for TACDE, what little is openly said about them is illuminating for instance they didn’t get a permanent contingent of SU-30MKIs until late 2010- more than a decade after the MKI was a reality and I’ve seen reports saying it takes them a few years to fully work up a type. LCA with so few in service won’t be able to be permanently deployed with TACDE for a long long time so IAF are being very aggressive by sending it into the lion’s den without having fully shaken out the type.

Sukhois set for Gwalior as IAF evolves new tactics
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-s ... cs-1407235

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:49

This is the first expedition of the Tejas that will take part in a multi-national operational exercise. They really need to pull out all the stops for this. Please no excuses of dekho-no-money and then talk about 114 MRFA with sixth generation technology to be incorporated into the AMCA program. I am really tired of the excuses.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:52

Rakesh wrote:This is the first expedition of the Tejas that will take part in a multi-national operational exercise. They really need to pull out all the stops for this. Please no excuses of dekho-no-money and then talk about 114 MRFA with sixth generation technology to be incorporated into the AMCA program. I am really tired of the excuses.

When is the last time the IAF sent Mirages to train in Europe?

I want to get excited by this news but it’s such a huge leap, I hope IAF aren’t setting her up to fail publicly. Maybe that’s too cynical but this program has done that to me.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:52

KSingh wrote:As for TACDE, what little is openly said about them is illuminating for instance they didn’t get a permanent contingent of SU-30MKIs until late 2010- more than a decade after the MKI was a reality and I’ve seen reports saying it takes them a few years to fully work up a type. LCA with so few in service won’t be able to be permanently deployed with TACDE for a long long time so IAF are being very aggressive by sending it into the lion’s den without having fully shaken out the type.

Exercise Gagan Shakti was an eye opener for the IAF top brass. The Tejas was among the highest serviceability available fleet and performed among the best in the fleet. Air HQ is fully convinced that the Tejas can undertake the role.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2022 22:54

KSingh wrote:When is the last time the IAF sent Mirages to train in Europe?

Not sure about Europe, but I remember IAF Mirage 2000s going to South Africa in the 2000s. Famous episode - during that exercise - of an IAF M2K pilot who came into land and did not lower the undercarriage. Landed with damage, but was flown back to India where she underwent a much more comprehensive repair.

KSingh wrote:I want to get excited by this news but it’s such a huge leap, I hope IAF aren’t setting her up to fail publicly. Maybe that’s too cynical but this program has done that to me.

That I am not worried about. For the IAF to do that, would be to shoot her own foot.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 23 Feb 2022 23:01

Rakesh wrote:That I am not worried about. For the IAF to do that, would be to shoot her own foot.

Shooting themselves in the foot is a very Indian trait at this point.

If IAF was fully behind LCA we wouldn’t have seen the 2-3 year needless delay to order MK1A or the gradual reduction in MK.2 projected orders. Anyway that’s for another time, I’m eagerly awaiting seeing LCA in a multilateral exercise, this is an absolutely historic moment for the project and Indian aerospace more broadly and a moment many many people said could not or would not happen.

Even for the IAF this is monumental- 45 and 18 SQN are already stretched just inducting new jets and building themselves up, on top of that they have to undertake 2 large foreign deployments spaced out over a few weeks merely. I don’t think there are 2 more dynamic squadrons in the entire IAF at present.

If all goes well LCA leaves doubters in the dust and emerges as a world class platform, JF-17/super MiG-21 pretenders have nothing against this.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2022 23:41

KSingh wrote:Shooting themselves in the foot is a very Indian trait at this point.

I am going to have to push back on that assertion Sir.

At an international air exercise, the last thing any professional air force will do is purposefully embarrass themselves. Any malfunction can occur, but to purposefully do it will bring egg on the IAF's face. They have ample opportunity to do that at home, that they don't need to display that at an international level. Tejas also went to Bahrain and Singapore and performed flawlessly there. At that level - apart from the aircraft - the reputation of the crew (pilots + ground personnel) are equally at stake. The squadron's reputation is also on the line here.

The Rambha had among the lowest fleet availability in the IAF. Yet when it goes for international air exercises, the IAF pulls out all the stops. Over there, the Rambha has a very high fleet availability. That comes with a significantly high OPEX, but the IAF gladly pays that price.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Feb 2022 00:30

From the hvt's tweet above

the prototypes have got further advanced modes like ALSR etc.

What is that mode?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2022 00:42

Cybaru, go here for ALSR ---> http://defenceupdate.in/alsr-an-advance ... ogfighter/

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Feb 2022 02:03

Rakesh wrote:Cybaru, go here for ALSR ---> http://defenceupdate.in/alsr-an-advance ... ogfighter/

Thank you very much Sir!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2022 02:16

Cybaru wrote:Thank you very much Sir!

Why are you calling me Sir?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 24 Feb 2022 02:17

Rakesh wrote: Exercise Gagan Shakti was an eye opener for the IAF top brass. The Tejas was among the highest serviceability available fleet and performed among the best in the fleet. Air HQ is fully convinced that the Tejas can undertake the role.

Tejas proves its mettle in biggest Indian war exercise Gagan Shakti 2018
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 089_1.html

"We did trials and validation of operational efficiency of LCA Tejas. We were able to generate six sorties per platform per day. In this exercise, we had deployed eight platforms," said an IAF official who was associated with this exercise.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 24 Feb 2022 04:13

KSingh wrote:... I hope IAF aren’t setting her up to fail publicly. Maybe that’s too cynical but this program has done that to me.

FFS, take a Valium and calm down!!

Shooting themselves in the foot is a very Indian trait at this point.

Speak for yourself, buddy. Don't include all Indians in your morbid paranoia. This kind of weeping and whining almost requires clinical intervention.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 24 Feb 2022 09:27

When automobile production across the world is hobbled by chip supply issues, is it possible that LCAs are also not being pushed out because of some chip shortage? There are a lot of parts, each and every one is critical and cannot easily be substituted without a long period of testing. Sure we will have a stockpile, and we will probably pay top dollar to secure some missing parts, but it is indeed probable that LCA production is impacted by chip shortage.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 24 Feb 2022 12:37

yensoy wrote:When automobile production across the world is hobbled by chip supply issues, is it possible that LCAs are also not being pushed out because of some chip shortage? There are a lot of parts, each and every one is critical and cannot easily be substituted without a long period of testing. Sure we will have a stockpile, and we will probably pay top dollar to secure some missing parts, but it is indeed probable that LCA production is impacted by chip shortage.

Highly unlikely. Simply because of the volumes required. When compared to no. of automobiles produced and parts per vehicle , aircraft production numbers are orders of magnitude smaller. A typical fab for modern consumer gadgets has 40k wafer starts per month. Each 300mm wafer can produce at least several thousand dies assuming an avg die size of 10mm2.
With older fabs ( which are likely to be used for stable mature technologies for MIL grade chips) , you can assume 20K wafer starts per month.
If there are shortages for MIL grade chips, and assuming much much larger margins for such productions, fab companies will not hesitate to do another production run of such chips. This is easy money for fabs. So i doubt chip shortage is an issue.

VipinM · Post by **VipinM** » 25 Feb 2022 23:54

Hearing reports that Ex Cobra warrior exercise has been called off due to situation in Ukraine and NATO requirements.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Feb 2022 10:47

Damn! No!!!!! I hope not, but likely true.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Feb 2022 11:11

And confirmed by the Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1497 ... PgzkpDDKEw ---> In light of the recent events, IAF has decided not to deploy its aircraft for Exercise Cobra Warrior 2022 in UK.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 26 Feb 2022 13:15

Rakesh wrote:And confirmed by the Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1497 ... PgzkpDDKEw ---> In light of the recent events, IAF has decided not to deploy its aircraft for Exercise Cobra Warrior 2022 in UK.

A wise decision.

srin · Post by **srin** » 26 Feb 2022 16:08

^^^ Why ? How are they related ?

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 26 Feb 2022 16:44

Rakesh wrote:And confirmed by the Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1497 ... PgzkpDDKEw ---> In light of the recent events, IAF has decided not to deploy its aircraft for Exercise Cobra Warrior 2022 in UK.

The tweet has been deleted now... Don't know why...
But it says IAF decided not to deploy its aircraft. It doesn't say Exercise has been called off...
Am I overthinking this or is Govt. expecting balloon to go up in our Northern border...?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Feb 2022 19:13

It's bad form for India to excercise with UK especially when it along with US might be going to war with Russia.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 26 Feb 2022 21:54

Pratyush wrote:It's bad form for India to excercise with UK especially when it along with US might be going to war with Russia.

No it is not. If we cancelled going here purely on "emotional support" rather than because of our own security needs then its a stupid move.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Feb 2022 08:34

Pratyush wrote:It's bad form for India to excercise with UK especially when it along with US might be going to war with Russia.

There is no need to think that way if U.K is not starting a war with Russia. As there is no such indication as of now, we must participate and must be ready to move out if situation escalate beyond the current UKR-RUS war. Today's and Tomorrow's India will not and must not work on the emotional fear of what others think. As long as our intentions of friendship with countries are clear to all, we must keep doing whats in our best interest. Backing off is what causes confusion about our intention and allow others to take advantage and start meddling.
Though the whole crew need to be trained about the landmine that the press there will lay to extract some statements from them for use in propaganda and information warfare. We must also be sure about the joint statement issued be free of any UKR-RUS content. Most probable we could agree to statement that's same as India's diplomatic position of dialogue and peace.