Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

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Indranil
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Indranil »

Kartik wrote:Youtube link

And to think someone was complaining about aesthetics of the probe, which really is the LEAST bit of a problem when so many others had to be resolved or confirmed as non-issues. :D
Must watch. And what a presentation!

I had known some of the work and had hinted at the changes to the sensors and FCS before. I was trying to suggest to some how facile some of the opinions on aesthetics and aerodynamics are.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15282 ... TkYP0rHV0w ---> Tejas Mk-1A will be built in hundreds, just like other single engine jets. Pick any international example. Once Tejas Mk-2 is given a go ahead, they will follow in hundreds too. The writing is on the wall.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by KSingh »

Kartik wrote:Youtube link

Must watch program lecture on the development of the In-Flight Refueling capability for the Tejas. Basically, all the details you would ever want to know, about how a 4th gen fighter with a FCS is made aerial refueling capable! Gives a very good insight into all the challenges that were faced including;

- the size of the LCA leading to shallow fuselage fuel tank, various scenarios following that,
- possibility of probe breaking off and engine ingestion causing flameout
- drogue causing damage
- angle of attack, side slip, pitot sensors placed close to the probe which had to be verified would not be affected by the vortex from the Il-78 tanker or the Su-30MKI buddy tanker
- the lack of suitable rig on the ground to test all scenarios such as fuel sloshing, aircraft acceleration, etc. that were seen in the air
- lack of IFR tankers IL-78 to carry out the testing for all the test points that needed to be covered
- lack of fuel on the Su-30MKI buddy refuelers since their air base was far away
- effect of drogue on LCA air intake, air data probes, also had to be ascertained
- air data probes were affected as seen in test flights, wake mode for FCS had to be invoked as well
- a refueling switch was added to the cockpit for the pilot to employ in flight; OFF/DRY and WET options were added. Dry for practice, where only FCS was configured, Wet where both FCS and fuel system were reconfigured
- Instead of using alpha vanes for angle of attack data, AoA was derived from nz
- Pitch stick authority was reduced to avoid possibility of PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillations), Gains were frozen (again related to FCS); AoA boundary limiting as well as advanced FCS recovery features were disabled
- Ground tests conducted with LCA in different bank and pitch angles to verify there were no issues, only after which flight tests were initiated
- Flight envelope was expanded with the IFR probe ; Wake survey was done ; Handling qualities were assessed (Lots of details and videos showing this, including one of Tejas with Max All Up Weight configuration carrying bombs, drop tanks and missiles, tracking the drogue from a Su-30MKI, which was difficult due to the high inertia of the fully loaded fighter)
- Lots more analysis of differences noticed with 3 different pilots
- IFR was also done with HUD off, landing gear extended (in case of an emergency where LG was not getting retracted)
- Surge relief valve in operation seen in one video, venting fuel
- Summary, LCA handling qualities in AAR good, difference in pilot experience and behaviour a factor,

And to think someone was complaining about aesthetics of the probe, which really is the LEAST bit of a problem when so many others had to be resolved or confirmed as non-issues. :D
Many thanks for the link

Once again proof that IAF really created a mountain to climb for the designers by asking for the smallest and lightest 4th gen fighter. The complexity incurred by such limitations on designers and testers cannot be overstated

They definitely would’ve been better starting with a two engine >15 ton fighter.

Let’s hope TEDBF and AMCA is smoother going given their foundation and also less physical restrictions
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

KSingh

As many knowledgable folk here have posted while size was a limitation it became a limitation only when the IAF started to want more and more out of the platform. Remember originally it was meant to be a Mig21 replacement thingy.
But not having designed an FBW jet ever it was better in hindsight to go for something like this than a twin-engine jet. That adds a layer of complexity which could have upended the whole program.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Does IAF remember that?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:Does IAF remember that?
Why should it?
If Indian R&D could not deliver on time or did not have the balls to say that some of the GSQRs were unobtanium then things get delayed. This leads to evolving operational requirements that result in IAF asking for more leading to scope creep. A perfectly logical state of affairs not just in the IAF but across all services.
This is India.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

Armed and ready to go !

https://twitter.com/Praneethfrank/statu ... yqEZQ&s=19

Tejas armed with Derby

Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SidSoma »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:Does IAF remember that?
Why should it?
If Indian R&D could not deliver on time or did not have the balls to say that some of the GSQRs were unobtanium then things get delayed. This leads to evolving operational requirements that result in IAF asking for more leading to scope creep. A perfectly logical state of affairs not just in the IAF but across all services.
This is India.
Because it has a greater stake in being full strength. Because its not just a tactical hitman but a strategic force and has a greater stake in nurturing the Indian industry. Because it has been involved with aircraft for more than 60 years but India has been building aircraft for less than half that time. But to give it to them... they are definitely not the worst.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:Does IAF remember that?
Why should it?
If Indian R&D could not deliver on time or did not have the balls to say that some of the GSQRs were unobtanium then things get delayed. This leads to evolving operational requirements that result in IAF asking for more leading to scope creep. A perfectly logical state of affairs not just in the IAF but across all services.
This is India.
Indian R&D didn't even know what it didn't know. That's understandable when you build a complex ecosystem from scratch. And we were building from scratch because we killed the follow-on to HF-24. Just like the HDW submarine. And the Bofors gun. The Armed forces were certainly not the only ones to blame for these, but they do deserve their share of opprobrium.

Fast-forward: the forces (& this time, they are almost exclusively to blame) are doing the same thing again. If Tejas-Mk2 isn't inducted in numbers, it will have a serious impact on AMCA, our production lines etc. The IN is repeating the mistake with no domestic SSK program and interminable delays in the P-75I program. The IA, 2 decades after Kargil, is still dragging their feet on artillery.

Mistakes are natural and ought to be tolerated - even encouraged. But to willfully repeat them is indicative of serious rot.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Sarcasm anyone!!!!!!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by bala »

Just deny the Videshi component imports and make The Armed forces follow this dictum:
TANA: There ain't no alternate: this worked well for things like ISRO rockets, e.g. when Russia was squeezed about cryogenic technology, India created its own. Same thing happened for control law software on Tejas, we were denied and lo and behold India created its own. If there were no GE 404 or 414 then India would be forced to come up with its own engine, no matter what.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by rajsunder »

bala wrote:Just deny the Videshi component imports and make The Armed forces follow this dictum:
TANA: There ain't no alternate: this worked well for things like ISRO rockets, e.g. when Russia was squeezed about cryogenic technology, India created its own. Same thing happened for control law software on Tejas, we were denied and lo and behold India created its own. If there were no GE 404 or 414 then India would be forced to come up with its own engine, no matter what.
We had copies of Russian Cryo engines for "Inspiraion"
Our Engineers were working and were more than half way through in developing FBW in USA before sanctions for Pokhran-2.
I am not trying to belittle our achievements, but we had external help to overcome the difficult phase. we did not start from scratch.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by suryag »

Rajsunderji ghanta inspiration!!! it was not more than the theory class of an engineering course.
On the Viking/Vikas engines, people who went for training during Mitterand's(IIRC) term were not legally allowed to carry drawings back, it was almost reproduced out of memory and other "means". Once they were back, it was their sheer determination to get it to work. My take on the reasons behind their success was they had decent test facilities, DoS had less sources of interference, ISRO was customer and developer at the same time. I still remember ISRO was at that time still a meritocracy when it came to promos, people had to show real progress to move on grades(of course as with every place in US there was some politics some favouritism) For some reason without the money to be made out of deals I believe Delhi babus and politicians left them alone, in fact saw them as a political opportunity to show case some development to the masses. Do you know in the mid 80s we didnt have a basic basic "light table" to spread out satellite images and do manual mosaicking, we used to get these from outside.

Now coming to DEfence side, the story goes 4 dimensional from 1 dimension
1. Money to be made by Netas
2. Past performance record clouding Armed forces' judgements and of course with armed forces being more exposed to whites they always drooled over stuff as it was within their acquisition reach.
3. DRDO's own record at design(they claim many things in news articles/interviews, however the reality is 60% of what they claim even for delivered products)
4. DRDO/DPSU's shoddy production, there is a great amount of chalta hai attitude when it comes to supply to our AFs. Obviously, the AF folks are pissed off given they are used to greater amounts of integrity and honesty(which is further exalted when there is no money to be made). This leads back to (2) above

Way forward
1. GoI needs to use a carrot and stick policy with both sides i.e., AFs and DRDO/DPSU and if you see since 2014 all the building blocks are being put in place one after the other - DPSU corporatization(carrot and stick to DRDO/DPSU), Pressure on DRDO funding(stick to DRDO), Import ban list(stick for AFs, carrot for DPSUs), ATAGS kind of private entity involvement, expansion of private participation, promo in AFs
2. CDS streamlining procurement procedures
3. Improvement in work ethics across the board and taking pride in their work - GoI is doing this but this has to happen organically, we need a nambinarayanan, a k narayana and all those H scientist kind of ego(that i can do it) and the sincerity and integrity,
4. DRDO needs to promote better project management, they have been improving this but there needs to be a tighter connection between AF and DRDO. For instance instead of AFs saying I need this and need that there ought to be a systems engineering group which kind of looks at problems that are faced and then carves out a solution that satisfies the aspirations of the AFs(in a phased manner) and also lets DRDO deliver progressively. This Sys.Engg group should be staffed by 1 star generals(Brig and their teams) and Scientist 'F's
5. Of course GoI opening up the purse further and investing more into research which is not funelled through DRDO/CSIR

Civilians like us should hold awareness sessions on product design in general and increase awareness, thats the best we can do apart Randi R&D
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by bala »

rajsunder wrote: We had copies of Russian Cryo engines for "Inspiration"
Our Engineers were working and were more than half way through in developing FBW in USA before sanctions for Pokhran-2.
I am not trying to belittle our achievements, but we had external help to overcome the difficult phase. we did not start from scratch.
Saar, this business of "external" help is way too far fetched. We did not create our Cryo 1:1 of any such design, it is our own. Similar with FBW etc. Having drawings etc does not tell you much. Practical realizations are much different than theory, shape and form. I remember a USA reporter claiming that Dr. APJ Kalam saw a rocket launch at Nasa and claimed he copied the rocket, such balderdash. The entire western world of many things came from WW-II German efforts of weapons. Aircraft engines being one of them from BMW 003.

< Moderator Note: Post Edited >
Last edited by Rakesh on 28 May 2022 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Bala,
please not in Mil Forum. Thanks
We try to stick to just the facts.
Not ancient history.
Ramana
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

< Moderator Note: Post Edited >
Last edited by Rakesh on 28 May 2022 20:13, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Sachin Saar, please stick to thread topic.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by KSingh »

Prem Kumar wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: . But to willfully repeat them is indicative of serious rot.
+100

Plus you missed out perhaps the most egregious- pursuing MRFA well into the 2030s now

Usually I would attribute these things to hanlon’s razor but I sincerely think there’s something more sinister at play now. MRCA commenced in early 00s, that we are still talking about the exact same requirement 20+ years later even after Rafale is present in service and LCA MK.2 is just around the corner is by design. Why would the former CAS state they aren’t interested in a couple more SQNs of Rafale merely but their full 100+ MRFA? The former would be able to be delivered within a few years, MRFA is a pipe dream and surely every single person involved has to know it. When’s the last time a nation bought 100+ 4.5 gen fighters?

This is one gravy boast that one CAS/senior officer class hands over to their successors, with MRFA they are the jewel of every major OEM and all the ‘incentives’ that go with it
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Pratyush »

1st batch of LCA Tejas for Indian Air Force had 28 concessions
https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/

The absolute level of filth the domestic military industrial complex has to overcome.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

How is it that such pilots are not seen in PAF or PLAAF?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by sanjayc »

Pratyush wrote:1st batch of LCA Tejas for Indian Air Force had 28 concessions
https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/

The absolute level of filth the domestic military industrial complex has to overcome.
This is the punchline of the article at the end:
Postponing, worse still, canceling the acquisition of strike elements from foreign vendors is a disaster waiting to happen. Immediate acquisition of suitably evaluated strike elements for IAF is the crying need of the hour.
The dude is shilling for imports. Looks like a cat's paw of the import lobby. It's good that this creature has retired and not polluting the air force anymore with his presence. Such mercenaries have no place in Indian armed forces.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Baikul »

Pratyush wrote:1st batch of LCA Tejas for Indian Air Force had 28 concessions
https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/

The absolute level of filth the domestic military industrial complex has to overcome.
On the contrary saar, this is a brilliant article.

1. Assumption of expertise? Check. “I used to be a fighter pilot for 30 years, hence I know all”

2. Noting a litany of ‘shortcomings’ that sound good on paper? Check

3. Appeals to panic and patriotism? Check.

4. Referencing older notions to subtly or not so subtly imply that all things Indian are bad? Yeah check!

5. Casually and ‘logically’ coming to a pre cooked conclusion, ie but phiren maal? Check

I’ve spent half my life working in media and believe that this article should be required reading for those interested in combating propagandu.

That is why this article is brilliant - you can learn all you need about the pressure from the corrupt arms lobby, just by spending less than 5 minutes reading it.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

basant wrote:How is it that such pilots are not seen in PAF or PLAAF?
Because India has a democracy. All views are encouraged and entertained.

Pakistan has a military that runs the nation. China has a communist party that strictly controls information outflow. Criticism in both nations - towards the establishment - is not permitted. So whatever Pakistan / China say about their military programs is the gospel truth. Who is going to counter this in Pakistan/China and risk their life and the life of their families?

There is a well known saying in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir ---> Ask for Independent Kashmir in PoK and see how quickly you & your family disappear.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

sanjayc wrote:The dude is shilling for imports. Looks like a cat's paw of the import lobby. It's good that this creature has retired and not polluting the air force anymore with his presence. Such mercenaries have no place in Indian armed forces.
Individuals such as him are very present and serving in the armed forces. The remaining 80s commissioned officers - all in senior leadership ranks and roles - are filled with this level of thinking. There are many serving officers who are polluting their service with this thinking.

The disconnect in their thinking is amazing. Wait till the late 2020s for the first batch of phoren 4th generation MRFA to arrive, but flatly refuse to induct a local 4th generation MRFA.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:1st batch of LCA Tejas for Indian Air Force had 28 concessions
https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/

The absolute level of filth the domestic military industrial complex has to overcome.
From HVT Sir :)

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15309 ... 0xP_lWRYgg ---> I've stopped responding to hit -jobs on Twitter. They get unnecessary publicity when experts discuss their (poorly researched) articles.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/MohnishKharwar/stat ... 0xP_lWRYgg ---> Don't know what's wrong with HAL's PR team. Why can't they make something attention-grabbing to promote Tejas in International Market? Like This....

Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

India emerges frontrunner for Malaysian fighter jet order
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 396099.cms
22 June 2022
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:India emerges frontrunner for Malaysian fighter jet order
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 396099.cms
22 June 2022
India is gonna be flooded with palm oil :x
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:
sanjayc wrote:The dude is shilling for imports. Looks like a cat's paw of the import lobby. It's good that this creature has retired and not polluting the air force anymore with his presence. Such mercenaries have no place in Indian armed forces.
Individuals such as him are very present and serving in the armed forces. The remaining 80s commissioned officers - all in senior leadership ranks and roles - are filled with this level of thinking. There are many serving officers who are polluting their service with this thinking.

The disconnect in their thinking is amazing. Wait till the late 2020s for the first batch of phoren 4th generation MRFA to arrive, but flatly refuse to induct a local 4th generation MRFA.
Sir that is unfair to tar an entire generation of offrs like that.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Sir that is unfair to tar an entire generation of offrs like that.
When officers of his generation don't refute the tripe that he has written, then they endorse those views by default.

Other officers have (i.e. Group Captain HV Thakur Sir), but none of his generation. Import is all they know. That is why we are in this mess.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral

A lot of officer from that seniority are not privy to the knowledge that HVT sir has.
Plus vast majority of them are not active on media platforms.
Take my dad. His most important/ substantive postings were in the 80s. He grew up with the OFB crap.
A decent officer by all accounts who groomed a current Army commander but his knowledge of media is zilch.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Sir, the issue is not with the media. This issue lies with the platform.

The lies that he wrote in that article is outlandish. One does not have to be a media savvy person to know that what he wrote is utter rubbish. Any air force officer (from the flying branch and the fighter stream) will know that he has written tripe. That man is a disservice to the uniform and to the nation. And he is not the only one. There have been a number of officers - some Air Chiefs even - that have espoused this thinking.

This has to be called out for what it is, but only officers junior to him are doing it. We will only import, because we choose not to crawl-walk-run. We want to run, soon as we hit the ground. We lost three experienced pilots last year - all in Bison crashes. But yet Air HQ steadfastly refuses to retire the last four MiG-21 Bison units and not order at least two additional Tejas Mk1A units as replacements.

Air HQ ordered a pithy 40 Mk1s and then has the gall & audacity to complain about low delivery rates, granting concessions to Tejas, etc. The order book should have been 100 Mk1s (minimum) at the get-go. Now the shortage is acute, but the current Air Chief and his subordinates at Air HQ dreams only of 114 MRFA. But not a single MRFA will arrive in three years before contract signature. We are still in RFI stage. Just saying.

If they are really serious about the squadron shortage, then double the Mk1A order. Will they?

We will repeat the same (order small batches) with the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA as well.

But Air HQ will import 100+ fifth generation fighters. Two front war after all!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:Sir, the issue is not with the media. This issue lies with the platform.

That man is a disservice to the uniform and to the nation. And he is not the only one. There have been a number of officers - some Air Chiefs even - that have espoused this thinking.
The point was not about the media or medium Admiral.

Plus it is only HVT sir and he is doing the job of 5 people.

The issue is that there are enough officers who are of the 80s and even earlier who will attest to the importance of being self-reliant. A lot of them who are seniors and at AHQ understand the unique challenges. Some are recently retired and some retired a while ago. I am not for a moment saying that things are hunky-dory and the need for the hours is an institutional change in attitudes.

They may disagree with what the aforementioned officer has written but many have completely lost touch with the services at a deeper level apart from the regular catch-up with coursemates/batchmates/sqdn mates/ regimental affiliations etc. They live a quiet productive life..So I am batting for a large proportion of vets who do managed with what has been given them, have not been in a position to affect change, and generally keep their opinions their to themselves.

Like anywhere else not all the officers are super duper strategic thinkers. Lots of average folks and it is their training that sets them apart not necessarily their thinking.

What you are saying is that all of them are guilty of this line of thinking by association. You yourself have said "some". Some are not all.
Last edited by ks_sachin on 23 Jun 2022 10:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote: This has to be called out for what it is, but only officers junior to him are doing it. We will only import, because we choose not to crawl-walk-run. We want to run, soon as we hit the ground. We lost three experienced pilots last year - all in Bison crashes. But yet Air HQ steadfastly refuses to retire the last four MiG-21 Bison units and not order at least two additional Tejas Mk1A units as replacements.

Air HQ ordered a pithy 40 Mk1s and then has the gall & audacity to complain about low delivery rates, granting concessions to Tejas, etc. The order book should have been 100 Mk1s (minimum) at the get-go. Now the shortage is acute, but the current Air Chief and his subordinates at Air HQ dreams only of 114 MRFA. But not a single MRFA will arrive in three years before contract signature. We are still in RFI stage. Just saying.
Rakesh: you articulate this very well. Why don't you try your hand at writing about this in a magazine like Swarajya? This needs to reach a lot of people.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

^^Admiral you should have been a journalist or must have been on in your previously life!!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Neela »

India emerges top contender for Malaysia's fighter jet order

Dont think there is anything new in the article from today. Correct?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:The issue is that there are enough officers who are of the 80s and even earlier who will attest to the importance of being self-reliant. A lot of them who are seniors and at AHQ understand the unique challenges. Some are recently retired and some retired a while ago. I am not for a moment saying that things are hunky-dory and the need for the hours is an institutional change in attitudes.
How many of them come out to argue for change? To push the air force towards modernization via local platforms? Apart from the current lot of 80s commissioned serving officers, I have seen a number of the retired batch also argue for 114 MRFA. Some of the retired names that come to mind are;

1) Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar
2) Air Marshal Anil Khosla
3) Air Marshal SBP Sinha
4) Air Marshal SB Deo
5) Air Marshal Anil Chopra
6) Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur

This is the short list. There are many more. With the exception of Number 1, none of the others have even bothered to speak or write about the Tejas, apart from criticisms which is not even constructive or real. Not a single one. They are living productive retired lives alright and getting a nice pension. And you hit the nail on the head - it is their training that sets them apart. And they have been trained to import. That is all they know. Silence is guilty by association indeed Sir. Their silence is golden and criminal.

It is ironic that an officer who retired in 2004 from the IAF (Group Captain TP Srivastava) knows the ins and outs of the Tejas program in 2022. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect every retired officer to come out and counter the horse drivel that Group Captain TP Srivastava (retd) has written. But not a single one has. And that is sad. But retired officers got time to write horsecrap like that article.

I get the math with the 114 MRFA acquisition, which I will elaborate below. Whether we can afford the 114 MRFA is another question. Or if we get the 114 MRFA, what else will suffer? The issue is there are so many airframes & fighter fleets that require retiring over the course of the next two decades, that the number of 114 MRFA seems appropriate. Here are the numbers currently in the IAF;

a) 13 Su-30MKI units
b) 4 MiG-21 Bison units
c) 6 Jaguar IS/IB/IM units
d) 3 Mirage 2000I/TI units
e) 3 MiG-29UPG units
f) 2 Rafale F3R(I) units
g) 2 Tejas Mk1 units

The above represents the entire fixed wing fighter fleet of the Indian Air Force. That is roughly around 33 units in total. The sanctioned strength is 42 units. But herein lies the problem. In the above list (from B to E), these airframes will all be retired within 15+ years. That is 16 units or half the current strength of 2022. The MRFA is attempting to stem the tide by acquiring 6 units. But that still leaves a gaping hole of 10 units. And that 10 units is just to match (unit for unit) the 2022 fleet strength of 33 units. I am not even talking about 42 units!

So over the course of the next 2 decades, the fighter fleet will look something like this;

a) 13 Su-30MKI units
b) 2 Rafale F3R(I) units
c) 6 MRFA units (hopefully Rafale for logistics and commonality purposes)
d) 2 Tejas Mk1 units
e) 4 Tejas Mk1A units

So the IAF is looking at 27 units in total. But despite 114 MRFA, the IAF is still short by the sanctioned strength of 15 units and that is a huge gap. And this is why the Tejas Mk2 is so bloody damn crucial. If 200 airframes are ordered, it will eventually boost the strength up to 37 units. And that is a massive shot in the arm for the IAF. But Air HQ is dilly dallying as usual. This current Air Chief even stated that they will not hit 42 squadrons anytime this decade or the next. And it is not because the problem is insurmountable, they just do not want to.

The IAF has had it easy since independence. We want X capability, so we will write up a RFI for a global competition. We will then acquire a particular platform. Affordability, Serviceability, Sustainability be damned. The vision is always short term and never long term. The anathema towards HAL is primarily because the Air Force wants a ready-made platform from Day 1. Forget HAL, no OEM can deliver what the IAF is asking from the Tejas at its first attempt. Iterative improvements is a concept that goes over the IAF's head.

Peer over at our neighbour and the situation is diametrically opposite. In JF-17, you have successive block improvements. Each new block is progessively better than the preceding block. Yes the platform is subpar, but see the effort being taken. Is that happening in India? One Air Marshal wants a thicker canopy, another Air Marshal wants X, yet another Air Marshal wants Y. So the developer is left scrambling to put that capability onto the platform. And these Air Marshals are wickedly smart. They full well know that this will not only take time, but delay the program. Then they will complain that HAL is taking too long to deliver the aircraft, so 114 MRFA is necessary.

I am condensing a lot of the timeframe to keep it concise. But I can already see this is turning into a long rant :) Sorry.

There are options available (RIGHT NOW) to stem the tide of squadron shortage;

1) Order four more Tejas Mk1A units
2) Commence the Super Sukhoi upgrade
3) Improve serviceability of the current fleet
4) Place order of intent for 200 Tejas Mk2s

But none of these will be pursued, because the IAF has a laser vision focus on only 114 MRFA. More pilots will die in Bison and other crashes. Air HQ will award a medal to their next of kin and get a photo taken with the President of India on Republic Day. Rinse & Repeat.

I vividly remember when No 20 Lightnings was raised on 27 Sept 2002. Air HQ was giddy in joy over their new toy. The then Air Chief - Kitcha Sir - was hopping and skipping at Lohegaon on that day. 20 years later, the IAF has now jumped to their next toy ---> Rafale F3R(I) and 114 MRFA. The 270+ Rambha fleet can die a slow death. 20 years from today, the same fate will be shared by the Rafale F3R(I) and 114 MRFA. Rinse & Repeat.

The real danger to the Tejas Mk2 is not even the 114 MRFA acquisition. That will be an indirect correlation. The real danger to the Mk2 program, IMVHO, lies in the AMCA. Once again, Air HQ is dousing the Mk2 program in kerosene and will then light it on fire. Air HQ wants to jump directly from Mk1A to AMCA. Never before have I seen such an asinine line of thinking. Go to any aircraft developer (that have designed or are designing VLO platforms) and ask them if they could move from a Tejas Mk1A type aircraft directly to a fifth generation fighter. Even Air HQ knows that is not possible. But they do not want the Tejas Mk2. So they will live with a squadron shortage for the next 2 decades. Rinse & Repeat.

Once 114 MRFA is wholly inducted, then Air HQ will say Tejas Mk2 represents similar capability to Rafale and 114 MRFA. We don't want duplication of capability, so there is no need for the Tejas Mk2. We want a twin engine, VLO platform, with laser guns and dilithium powered missiles that move at the speed of Warp 9. Once again....Rinse & Repeat.

No politician in India is aware of this malaise that lives at Air HQ. They blindly believe and swallow whatever Air HQ tells them as gospel truth. Rajnath Singh, Nirmala Sitharaman, the late Arun Jaitley and the late Manohar Parrikar are clueless, because it is not their domain expertise. Air HQ is taking everyone for a ride and destroying the nation's Military Industrial Complex as a result. They will gladly lay down their lives for the nation in times of war, but actively kill the nation in times of peace. The dichotomy is astounding.

Not a single politician is willing to bell the cat at Air HQ, because they don't know where to find the cat at Air HQ!

P.S. This is only the Tejas program. Same story with Light Combat Helicopter and HTT-40. Imported Air Force (IAF).
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Rakesh: you articulate this very well. Why don't you try your hand at writing about this in a magazine like Swarajya? This needs to reach a lot of people.
Thank You. I honestly would not know how to go about it.
ks_sachin wrote:^^Admiral you should have been a journalist or must have been on in your previously life!!
Barfi distribution is enough work for me Saar. Even that I am not doing properly as per BRFites :mrgreen:
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by bala »

Rakesh wrote: Air HQ is taking everyone for a ride and destroying the nation's Military Industrial Complex as a result.
Sadly, it is not just the Air HQ in this run-around-circus, there are others in it by their own subtle ways. The politico is part and parcel of the equation and of course our India's Ministry of Defense officials (Babus). The only babu who cares about actual numbers is the Defense production secretary who is tasked with ensuring that the numbers agreed by contract are delivered on time, yes, those that are on ToT like MiG 21, Su-30 MKI or Videshi delivered like Rafale and HAL Tejas. The ToT system always faces a crisis at the end of the year and production babu produces a pigeon out of the hat by contacting the original equipment manufacturer for the key parts to be shipped at the last moment (all pre-arranged in advance) and all the numbers now look good. The principle babu, Defense secretary is the wily one, patiently listening to Air HQ and on the other side feeling out the mantriji. The politico is careful not to be too assertive since they don't want to be fall guy. If there are any politico direction then the babu latches on the idea and conveys to Air HQ as fait accompli. If there is no direction then the rigmarole continues, each with their own opinion and a complete standstill as far as aircrafts are concerned.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by VishnuS »

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:India emerges frontrunner for Malaysian fighter jet order
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 396099.cms
22 June 2022
India is gonna be flooded with palm oil :x
That will result in reduction of cooking oil prices, what is the problem with that?

Funny enough, I predicted this as soon as I heard this news. Well, I was lazy as ****** otherwise, I would have had a half decent article (maybe published) on a pseudo name

Let me also make another claim while we are at it, they would want MK1A with Uttam and Aastra Mk2.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

VishnuS wrote:Let me also make another claim while we are at it, they would want MK1A with Uttam and Aastra Mk2.
The article states Mk1A, so it will have an AESA.

Astra Mk2 is still a bit ways off. Astra Mk1 is more likely.
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