Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 22 Nov 2022 11:40

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... dUPXjl4phQ ---> Advanced Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ) for LCA developed by DRDO. Active Antenna Transmit Receive Unit (AATRU) and Vivaldi Antenna Array Unit 32 manufacturing by Astra Microwave.

What news of the Tusker pod ?

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 22 Nov 2022 14:38

Rakesh wrote:X-Post from MRFA thread....

Rakesh wrote:

https://twitter.com/Tej_Intel/status/15 ... MpGleBQEDw ---> IAF will issue an RFP for MRFA by mid-2023. Speculated in 2024 but this seems to be a year early.
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/159 ... MpGleBQEDw ---> The inevitability of ordering more Tejas Mk1As will soon dawn on South Block.

Why blame only IAF? Even HAL is giving only 20 sets of mk1a orders to its suppliers. There is no chance mk1a production can ramp up rather even mk1a will be delayed in the number of aircrafts delivered in a year. We will get 2 more Rafale sqads after next election and MRFA RFP will be issued later to include F-35, KF-X and TF-X.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 22 Nov 2022 16:57

BenG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:X-Post from MRFA thread....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/159 ... MpGleBQEDw ---> The inevitability of ordering more Tejas Mk1As will soon dawn on South Block.
Why blame only IAF? Even HAL is giving only 20 sets of mk1a orders to its suppliers. There is no chance mk1a production can ramp up rather even mk1a will be delayed in the number of aircrafts delivered in a year. We will get 2 more Rafale sqads after next election and MRFA RFP will be issued later to include F-35, KF-X and TF-X.

How can you possibly use terms like ‘no chance’? Based on what?

HAL has repeatedly said they can ramp up production beyond 20/year from existing infrastructure simply by increasing the % of LRUs that are outsourced from the present ~60-70%

What HAL is doing today is purely based on the pitiful 83 unit commitment they have in hand. If they get more orders they’ll make more, HAL have a fairly sophisticated production management setup these days and once they have stability in orders they can make as many as you like.

Look at IN/ICG ALH-MK3MR contract, 1st unit delivered within 36 months, all within 60 months- exactly in line with the DPP guidelines and basically what Dassualt achieved for the Rafale. HAL I have no doubt will meet all MK1A delivery timelines from 2025 onwards (a little issues at the start I’ll forgive and are understandable but from year 2/3 they’ll have found their feet)

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 22 Nov 2022 17:06

Just to add to it. HAL and every one of its suppliers are aware of the firm orders of LCA that have been issued and are finding the most cost efficient way to fulfill it (There is no motivation in completing all of them in a short period of time. They would like to work at a pace that prays for more orders to come their way and this line continues).

What commitment/clarity /indication has IAF given on the final numbers of MK1A it will order. If that final number is 83, there is no need/motivation to produce at more than 12-16 a year

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 22 Nov 2022 17:15

SidSoma wrote:Just to add to it. HAL and every one of its suppliers are aware of the firm orders of LCA that have been issued and are finding the most cost efficient way to fulfill it (There is no motivation in completing all of them in a short period of time. They would like to work at a pace that prays for more orders to come their way and this line continues).

What commitment/clarity /indication has IAF given on the final numbers of MK1A it will order. If that final number is 83, there is no need/motivation to produce at more than 12-16 a year

Production capacity flows from order commitments, it’s that simple. If you order 10000 then you can reasonably expect 150-200/year. It’s quite absurd that I see many asking HAL to make >20/year for just 83 units, this would lead to them completing production early and then that capacity sitting idle until the LCA MK.2 is ordered (god knows when that will be)

Another thing that rarely gets discussed is the IAF’s own ability to absorb new assets, for the MRFA in the RFI the stipulated production rate is 14/year. For the 36 Rafale it was ~12/year. Has the IAF got the dynamism to induct on a mass scale much beyond this? There’s concrete evidence that the IAF and IA have parked ALH that were produced ahead of schedule at HAL BLR as they didn’t have the scope to induct them ahead of schedule so I suspect that if HAL were to unilaterally increase production that would make lead to more storage hangers needed to Be created in BLR

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 22 Nov 2022 17:41

Prem Kumar wrote:Modi Sarkar will issue an RIP for MRFA in 2024

Good one !

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 22 Nov 2022 22:27

The best way to achieve the magic number of 114 is to split it between Rafale, Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 with 2 squadrons each. It will ensure we get more Tejas built and will bridge the gap even if there is any more delays with Tejas Mk2 development. We can squeeze in couple of squadrons of NLCA or Tejas SPORT or Tejas CATS Max depending on the situation and appetite of the IN and IAF, with the money that wasn't spent on the gold plated Rafale's.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 23 Nov 2022 15:07

konaseema wrote:The best way to achieve the magic number of 114 is to split it between Rafale, Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 with 2 squadrons each.

That was the idea of original mk1a order. Since only 36-40 Rafales were to be ordered, the rest of the requirements were to be met with Tejas mk1 FOC. But IAF dragged out cost negotiations so long that now it has resulted in money not being there for Su-30 upgrades. Penny wise and pound foolish approach by bean counters makes sure there is no scope to scale up investments.

I expect another 36 Rafale order after next election as a stop gap. Immortal MRFA will still be around with F-35 and Su-57 thrown into the mix. I'm sure IAF understands this reality too. But they will not order 40 more Tejas mk1a. They will complain that Tejas mk2 is late.

I fear the current mk1a order pie is too small. BEL and HAL are in a turf war wrt to uttam/El-2052 radars. The loss of malaysian lca competition means we won't have a new line in Nashik either. When we inevitably revise timelines of mk2, mk1a cannot make up those numbers since we did not order them in advance.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 23 Nov 2022 15:29

KSingh wrote:
BenG wrote:
Why blame only IAF? Even HAL is giving only 20 sets of mk1a orders to its suppliers. There is no chance mk1a production can ramp up rather even mk1a will be delayed in the number of aircrafts delivered in a year. We will get 2 more Rafale sqads after next election and MRFA RFP will be issued later to include F-35, KF-X and TF-X.
How can you possibly use terms like ‘no chance’? Based on what?

The first page of tejas mk1 thread says we only have a capacity of 8+4 now and another 8 coming online by 2024-25. How can HAL go beyond max production capacity? HAL never exceeded production capacity with Su-30. For su-30 subsystems, there were established suppliers in Russia. Any new order will take 4 years to deliver for aircraft in production, but new aircraft mk2 delivery is slated to begin by 2029. The first flight itself should take place by 2025 and order placed asap. Any delay in mk2 flight program will only be compensated by new orders of mk1a/mk1b which can be delivered after 2029. If new mk1a orders are placed in 2025, HAL will deliver in 2029. There can be no production increase in-between now and 2029 without new mk1a/b orders before 2025. .

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 23 Nov 2022 19:54

BenG wrote:
KSingh wrote: How can you possibly use terms like ‘no chance’? Based on what?
The first page of tejas mk1 thread says we only have a capacity of 8+4 now and another 8 coming online by 2024-25. How can HAL go beyond max production capacity? HAL never exceeded production capacity with Su-30. For su-30 subsystems, there were established suppliers in Russia. Any new order will take 4 years to deliver for aircraft in production, but new aircraft mk2 delivery is slated to begin by 2029. The first flight itself should take place by 2025 and order placed asap. Any delay in mk2 flight program will only be compensated by new orders of mk1a/mk1b which can be delivered not before 2029. If new mk1a orders are placed in 2025, HAL will deliver in 2029. There can be no production increase.

From the existing footprint HAL can scale up from 16 to ~24. They’d only do that if they have additional orders to justify that. It’s really that simple

Why should they exceed 16/year if the IAF won’t accept more than 16/year?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Nov 2022 20:04

The relationship between production and orders is a straight line.

The fact that it's not understood by so many people, that it's shocking.

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 23 Nov 2022 20:26

The IAF is not ready to foot the bill (cost of Mk1A going up) for the Capex that is needed to set up the assembly line for the additional 8 or 16 aircrafts. This is the reason why HAL can't build it any faster. This cost can be amortized across additional 2-4 Squadrons of Mk1A and 10 Squadrons of Mk2 with a slight increase in the per unit cost of Mk1A & Mk2. But who is going to bell the big CAT, IAF? While everyone agrees that quantity has quality of its own, IAF should be forced to order a minimum of 10 squadrons of any desi fighters from here on so that we have the infrastructure to build 24-25 aircrafts a year and a 8 year production run. Unless we buy our products in numbers, other countries will be hesitant to buy our products. If we do that, by 2035 we will have a IAF that not only has its 42 squadrons but also will have a few in the reserves.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Nov 2022 00:05

IAF doesn't pay for anything. It's Govt of India funds that come from the people of India.
HAP is a PSU, not a private company investing its own resources.

MRFA RFP is a scurrilous move by the high command.
The whole aviation ecosystem had no faith in Tejas' production. The joke was HAL was funded to make 3 a/c per year and to utilize the Kiran line for 5 a/c for a total of 8/year. It was the hue and cry after Mk1A that the second line of again 8 a/c per year was built at Tumkur.
This line is ready and is being used for a total of 16/year. Now export orders are coming and there has to be an expansion of the Tumkur factory.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 24 Nov 2022 01:46

ramana wrote:IAF doesn't pay for anything. It's Govt of India funds that come from the people of India.
HAP is a PSU, not a private company investing its own resources.

MRFA RFP is a scurrilous move by the high command.
The whole aviation ecosystem had no faith in Tejas' production. The joke was HAL was funded to make 3 a/c per year and to utilize the Kiran line for 5 a/c for a total of 8/year. It was the hue and cry after Mk1A that the second line of again 8 a/c per year was built at Tumkur.
This line is ready and is being used for a total of 16/year. Now export orders are coming and there has to be an expansion of the Tumkur factory.

Tumkur? That’s the helo production hub

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 24 Nov 2022 01:50

Pratyush wrote:The relationship between production and orders is a straight line.

The fact that it's not understood by so many people, that it's shocking.

Indeed. There’s a lot of obfuscation on this topic and many seem to be wanting to wilfully disregard this reality

They’ll use examples of other production runs abroad but completely miss the crucial detail of how many units that production had a commitment for. Consistently I see people criticising HAL’s performance with the LCA as being slow and too little but rarely does anyone point out that until March 2021 only 16+16+8 LCA had ever been ordered. And for this they are comparing production runs of F16, J10 etc.

Even though 83 units is pitiful it does put the project into new territory and I hope will wake up a few to the pros of stable production runs and yet many are already trying to write off the project

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Nov 2022 21:57

More Mk1As will come. The timelines of the Mk2, AMCA and MRFA will make Air HQ order additional Mk1As. There is no way around that.

It would have been better to order them upfront, but we reach the end result after spending double the money.

This is the MoD way of operating.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 26 Nov 2022 14:02

https://www.businessworld.in/article/IA ... 22-455446/

Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari expressed the same anxiety with respect to the LCA Mk-2. “LCA Mk-2 was initially planned to be rolled out in 2018. CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security) approval for the design and development of the aircraft has been granted recently. Readiness for flight testing is envisaged by 2024 followed by induction from 2030-31. This is an aggressive timeline and we hope that ADA and HAL will be able to meet it,” he stated.

There was a phase last year when IAF chief ignored Tejas mk2 and talked about only AMCA and MRCA. They do know there is a high risk mk2 is not coming on time and in numbers like they want to. Despite these circumstances, they will wait for MRFA rather than float the idea of getting mk1a quickly with a higher production rate then do a mk1b with uttam radar plus other upgrades. Right now LRDE wants a sizable order for UTTAM which means El-2052 is going to be ordered in lower numbers while Uttam development is still not complete.

IAF should take these developments into conscience and make decisions now. The inductions need to happen in a transparent manner. In 2022, IAF chief says they expected mk2 in 2018. But in 2019, Dr Girish S Deodhare is giving interview saying Tejas mk2 will fly utmost by 2022 beginning. Why did the IAF not manage the acquisition with a push for mk2 development when clearly their timelines were collapsing like a house of cards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1GDRGknd4Y

Here we are in 2022, Mig-21 squadrons will be numberplated before mk1a is operational by 2025. Jaguar replacement is next in line. Despite having the same capability as Tejas mk1, IAF is not inclined to place any order for Tejas mk1a/b as Jaguar replacement. They are still playing the same song that mk2 should have come in 2018. I believe IAF top brass needs to be purged like the prussians did after Napoleon's invasion. Otherwise, we will not be able to implement theatre commands or induct any next generation capabilities. We will be stuck in revolving door of MRFAs and MMRCAs.

basant · Post by **basant** » 26 Nov 2022 23:45

How could Mk2 have rolled out if the IAF was changing the specs? May be we should have some web page tracing the chronology of its development, from simple 0.5m plug with GE-G414s to the latest version that was agreed upon much later. It is frustrating that such officers are never questioned by the journalists, who seem to prefer perks available with towing the line rather than doing an honest day's work and great service to the country.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 31 Dec 2022 07:44

konaseema wrote:The best way to achieve the magic number of 114 is to split it between Rafale, Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 with 2 squadrons each. It will ensure we get more Tejas built and will bridge the gap even if there is any more delays with Tejas Mk2 development.

Harraam ideas need be banned if IAF staff has powers.
Only shiny uber_unobtanium planes in hand of IAF will gurentee IAF win in war, is the mantra everyone MUST chant !

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 31 Dec 2022 09:55

BenG wrote:
Here we are in 2022, Mig-21 squadrons will be numberplated before mk1a is operational by 2025. Jaguar replacement is next in line. Despite having the same capability as Tejas mk1, IAF is not inclined to place any order for Tejas mk1a/b as Jaguar replacement. They are still playing the same song that mk2 should have come in 2018. I believe IAF top brass needs to be purged like the prussians did after Napoleon's invasion. Otherwise, we will not be able to implement theatre commands or induct any next generation capabilities. We will be stuck in revolving door of MRFAs and MMRCAs.

100++

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 31 Dec 2022 10:51

Haridas wrote:
BenG wrote:
I believe IAF top brass needs to be purged like the prussians did after Napoleon's invasion. Otherwise, we will not be able to implement theatre commands or induct any next generation capabilities. We will be stuck in revolving door of MRFAs and MMRCAs.
100++

Thank u!

But On the flip side, I'm also not sure whether HAL will deliver even 1 Tejas twin seater serial production copy to IAF by Mar 2023 The stated goal is to deliver 4.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 31 Dec 2022 12:04

Purge the Govt as well as they cannot control the MoD and top brass!!!!

What nonsensical statements are made here. These guys have put in their blood sweat and tears to lead and you are being so flippant?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 31 Dec 2022 12:43

BenG wrote:
Haridas wrote: 100++
Thank u!

But On the flip side, I'm also not sure whether HAL will deliver even 1 Tejas twin seater serial production copy to IAF by Mar 2023 The stated goal is to deliver 4.

As per MK1A contact, first 2 Tejas has to be delivered by March 2024.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 31 Dec 2022 13:14

ks_sachin wrote:Purge the Govt as well as they cannot control the MoD and top brass!!!!

What nonsensical statements are made here. These guys have put in their blood sweat and tears to lead and you are being so flippant?

Go to any Govt organization, PSU or even old Tata companies. If you had experience working with people of this generation with 5years of experience, compare him with the 20 year experienced guy in a senior role there. You will know why the decision making sucks there. All the innovative thinking, strategies and developments are shown the door in place of following established protocols which is a fancy way of saying whims of senior management. The govt has big say in appointments. But the pool available is already filled to the brim with these seniors. So you need to purge them to have any meaningful change.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 31 Dec 2022 13:15

ashishvikas wrote:
BenG wrote:
Thank u!

But On the flip side, I'm also not sure whether HAL will deliver even 1 Tejas twin seater serial production copy to IAF by Mar 2023 The stated goal is to deliver 4.
As per MK1A contact, first 2 Tejas has to be delivered by March 2024.

I'm talking about Tejas twin-seat Trainers not mk1a.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Dec 2022 13:39

ks_sachin wrote:Purge the Govt as well as they cannot control the MoD and top brass!!!!

What nonsensical statements are made here. These guys have put in their blood sweat and tears to lead and you are being so flippant?

You should've become accustomed to such nonsense in all these years!

When some total of one's involvement in a subject is only to the extent of writing a few lines in couple of days, this is the brilliance you get.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 31 Dec 2022 15:54

BenG you r equating the armed forces with the PSUs. Good luck.

So purge all the Lt Gens and above and all AVMs and above and all the Vice Admrls and above.

Then what.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 31 Dec 2022 15:57

RohitVats thanks. I did want to pick your brains on one matter. The recommendations for Theaterisation - what was the genesis for that.

Also 20 odd years on do we actually need Theaterisation? I got some very interesting observations which I will repeat here for fear of offence.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 01 Jan 2023 06:22

BenG wrote:
Go to any Govt organization, PSU or even old Tata companies. If you had experience working with people of this generation with 5years of experience, compare him with the 20 year experienced guy in a senior role there. You will know why the decision making sucks there. All the innovative thinking, strategies and developments are shown the door in place of following established protocols which is a fancy way of saying whims of senior management.

Beg to differ on this and I can say with personal experience that not all Govt Orgs/PSU's are the same. You need to see how RCI, and some other labs within our missile ecosystems works before making a statement like this.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jan 2023 16:40

Argentina is sending a commission to India in mid January 2023 to assess the Tejas Mk1A offer. This will likely include deep dives into the technical capabilities of the Tejas Mk1A, plus access to the Tejas simulators, assembly lines, etc. so the Argentines can gauge for themselves what the Tejas Mk1A can offer versus the price.

link to Google Translate page

The Argentine Air Force is preparing to send a commission to the Republic of India in order to evaluate the offer for HAL Tejas fighters . This was confirmed during the New Year's Eve Press Reception held recently by the Institution.

In this way, he realized that the Argentine Air Force is close to sending a commission to the Republic of India. The object of the same will be to evaluate on the ground the offer approached by representatives of the Indian government for HAL Tejas fighters . Although no further details were provided, it was indicated that it will travel to the Asian country in mid-January.

...

For his part, in terms of military cooperation between the two countries, the Chief of the Joint Staff of the Armed Forces (EMCFFAA), Lieutenant General Juan Martín Paleo, also paid a visit to India. This was framed by the Defexpo 2022 exhibition held in October. During the presence of the Argentine entourage, various products of the Indian military industrial complex were observed and analyzed. More precisely, on the LUH MK-1 helicopters manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) .

....

As expressed on that occasion by Zona Militar, “ Regarding the HAL TEJAS, it has not had the exposure that the JF-17 or the F-16 have received, for example. However, on more than one occasion the existence of local interest in game produced in India slipped out. One of the important aspects that has gone to its detriment is the large number of components of British origin that the TEJAS has, a situation that could replicate what happened with the KAI FA-50 Fighting Eagle light fighter .”

Adding that: “ However, HAL's president opportunely expressed that if Argentina finally selects the Indian offer for twelve aircraft, the company could replace different important components. Some 50 "big and small components" such as the refueling probe, nose cone, and Martin-Baker ejection seats with other alternatives are mentioned among these changes .

Whereas the Argentine PM recently denied allowing this contest to go on further, due to financial issues, this is nevertheless important. Important because it will at least establish in the Argentine Air Force and MoD the technical capabilities of the Tejas Mk1A, as well as the roadmap ahead.

I secretly hope that the Argentines can be roped in to the Tejas Mk2 by being shown what is planned for it. The Tejas Mk2 will be a far more lethal asset for the FAA given it's longer range and higher payload capabilities that will be a far bigger threat to the RAF detachment at Falklands. And since the Argentines don't have the funds for now to be able to buy a light fighter, postponing the purchase could mean that the Tejas Mk2 may be ready when they can actually induct a fighter.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 02 Jan 2023 22:12

Jay wrote:
Beg to differ on this and I can say with personal experience that not all Govt Orgs/PSU's are the same. You need to see how RCI, and some other labs within our missile ecosystems works before making a statement like this.

Having seen how the Air force has made a virtue out of creating RFI and RFPs, I am inclined to believe the top brass is a clique engaged in naval-gazing disguised as autonomy. The system of imports is revered as a critical part of the organizational wisdom. The practical approach of IAF is 'do anything to import'. With regards to dedication to indigenization at an individual level, None of their cadre share half the enthusiasm this forum has regarding R&D. In private, I've never seen aviation top brass or normal pilots appreciate HAL or Tejas efforts always calling it 30 years late. Mirage-2000 crash was blamed on HAL by the dead pilot's close friends even before report came who themselves are pilots in air force. All the good press Tejas gets from Air force is largely window dressing. IAF top brass's disdain for HAL gets press coverage whenever there is any crash of its products. Mi-17/C-130/An-32 crashes however will not get such rebukes. Only recently ACM R K S Bhadauria Sir took up an advisory role to develop UP's defence corridor. The previous ACMs never did anything remotely close to it. They took assignments in large private sector companies or bought posh foreign assignments.

How many of us have sought to critically debunk the devious strategies employed by IAF to facilitate imports whenever there is an RFI? I'm not talking about MRFA. I'm talking about ab-initio trainer pipistrel Virus aircraft and IAF basic trainer pilatus which killed the requirement of large volume NAL Hansa trainer production. These were also a largest in the world order in 2015 at 194 and 181 respectively. Later CAG exposed IAF's flawed procedures which were just swept under the rug. The MMRCA is an even bigger rabbit hole.

This may sound like a rant. But having followed IAF procurement for last 17 years, I do feel the top brass needs to be changed to facilitate modern planning using digital tools like SAP, simulate and implement combined arms tactics to reduce redundancies, invest in aerospace R&D and build up supply chain efficiencies like how pentagon manages its MIC. Otherwise, for every need, there will be an RFI sent to 10 manufacturers around the globe followed up 5 years later by RPF for obsolete technologies. There are so many firms developing UAVs in India now. Without a customer who supports the eco system, these bootstraps will die in next 10 years. IAF has to be the change for this evolution to happen.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 02 Jan 2023 22:16

^^^^
Sounds like someone who wanted to sell something to the air force and couldn’t get past the DSC guards outside the building.

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 02 Jan 2023 23:04

Tejas to IAF is like the food being force fed by the mother to her child that the child has never eaten before. Unless there is a systemic change in the mindset of the IAF as a whole, there will be resentment. No amount of changes at the top officers are going to fix this problem. I can equate this problem to my own issue of shoes not available in India (for my size, which is 13W). I still don't get it and when I visit India I do visit different showrooms in anticipation of availability. It is not because I want to use those shoes but just curiosity to know if they are available as I am so used to shoes that I have buying in USA for the last 20 odd years. It is the same thing with IAF and HAL. HAL needs to build something that is proven to be better than those available from foreign OEM's, IAF has not been used to HAL products that are proven world class and that is the elephant in the room. The only instance IAF has accepted Tejas has been when the govt has showed it under the IAF's throat. They need to do it again. If the Govt wants to go just with the stick, then it is Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 or if they want to go with a carrot and a stick, it will be 2-4 squadrons of Rafale and the rest will be Tejas Mk1A & Mk2.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 03 Jan 2023 08:05

konaseema wrote:Tejas to IAF is like the food being force fed by the mother to her child that the child has never eaten before. Unless there is a systemic change in the mindset of the IAF as a whole, there will be resentment. No amount of changes at the top officers are going to fix this problem. I can equate this problem to my own issue of shoes not available in India (for my size, which is 13W). I still don't get it and when I visit India I do visit different showrooms in anticipation of availability. It is not because I want to use those shoes but just curiosity to know if they are available as I am so used to shoes that I have buying in USA for the last 20 odd years. It is the same thing with IAF and HAL. HAL needs to build something that is proven to be better than those available from foreign OEM's, IAF has not been used to HAL products that are proven world class and that is the elephant in the room. The only instance IAF has accepted Tejas has been when the govt has showed it under the IAF's throat. They need to do it again. If the Govt wants to go just with the stick, then it is Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 or if they want to go with a carrot and a stick, it will be 2-4 squadrons of Rafale and the rest will be Tejas Mk1A & Mk2.

I would’ve thought that Doklam, Galwan and Balakot+PAF’s response would be enough to wake up the Indian military to the futility of perfect being the enemy od good enough and what’s available domestically today is worth a lot more than what they could get 15 years down the line from RFIs to foreign OEMs

But every time they were granted additional funding they used it to buy more toys from abroad.

Part of the reason the Chinese are building up so rapidly is because they have an MIC entirely devoted to them, india going around the houses with tenders that go nowhere and contract talks with OEMs that drag out for years is leaving an open goal.

Alas it’s both so obvious and avoidable but here we are. The RFI for towed guns implicitly launched to get foreign toys and the splitting of the light tank requirement really sealed it for me. Indian military is never going to change by themselves. They’ll need to be taught some lessons on the battlefield sadly

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 03 Jan 2023 11:34

It is not that the forces don't have examples wherein the Navy has been building destroyers, frigates, corvettes etc. but we do have a Project 75I as a blot. Air Force and Army have many more blots than IN but they do have examples of their own to draw some inspirations. If I were to look at it as a whole, I can convince myself that our forces want the best of the equipment and hence are showing tough love to our researchers & engineers. But at some point they have to drop their fascination for the best of both worlds approach of coming up with their QSR's which are ridiculous many times. They have to walk the talk of fighting with whatever they have and may need to just tweak a little bit and say we will fight with whatever our country can build. If only we can avoid a war this decade, we will be a far better country economically & militarily.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 03 Jan 2023 13:49

KSingh wrote: Alas it’s both so obvious and avoidable but here we are. The RFI for towed guns implicitly launched to get foreign toys and the splitting of the light tank requirement really sealed it for me. Indian military is never going to change by themselves. They’ll need to be taught some lessons on the battlefield sadly

Why do you think we were the greatest economy of the ancient and medieval world and yet kept on loosing to evry ghazni, ghori and gora.

We dont learn from battlefield defeats also.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 03 Jan 2023 18:05

I didn't mean for the conversation to spiral out of control like this.

All I sought to address was IAF being anathema to R&D in the country. The procurement system heavily favors imports both in terms of funding and user support. IAF should focus on throughput which means just more fighters, helicopters, Drones and sam systems which have completed IOC. A healthy backlog of orders is essential for production line to work at optimum production capacity. Supply chain can't be created for a stand alone order of 20 or 30. The next batch requirements should already be in development.

Take for example Su-30, Production line is idle and 12 Su-30 negotiation is on for the last 4 years. When 40 more order was asked by HAL, it was turned down to buy MRFA.
LCH is flying and is used on the border. A plant in tumkur is setting up production line. Air force is still asking for a repeat Apache order.
The less said of LUH the better. The order projection still stands at 187 and actual orders are for 15 despite a requirement of 400.
Tejas mk1a was conceived in 2015. But price haggling and order placement has taken 6 years and everything blamed on covid.

The old brass at the top just don't seem to get it. Rafale is not just a plane its a flying super computer. We are scrambling Rafales to intercept drones from china and portray it as bravado. The top brass completely lacks any imagination. There are far cost efficient alternatives. Just use balloon radars tethered to hill tops and ground based scramblers. We are throwing foreign exchange to buy shiny toys.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 03 Jan 2023 18:53

Kartik wrote:Argentina is sending a commission to India in mid January 2023 to assess the Tejas Mk1A offer. This will likely include deep dives into the technical capabilities of the Tejas Mk1A, plus access to the Tejas simulators, assembly lines, etc. so the Argentines can gauge for themselves what the Tejas Mk1A can offer versus the price.

...
One of the important aspects that has gone to its detriment is the large number of components of British origin that the TEJAS has, a situation that could replicate what happened with the KAI FA-50 Fighting Eagle light fighter .”

Adding that: “ However, HAL's president opportunely expressed that if Argentina finally selects the Indian offer for twelve aircraft, the company could replace different important components. Some 50 "big and small components" such as the refueling probe, nose cone, and Martin-Baker ejection seats with other alternatives are mentioned among these changes .

...

But sir, surely the achilles heel still remains the engine. There is just no getting around that fact.

Unkil will stop the sale on the prodding by their cousins-across-the-pond. And we just can't risk our own air force fighters getting grounded due to sanctions.

nits · Post by **nits** » 03 Jan 2023 19:02

Kartik wrote: Adding that: “ However, HAL's president opportunely expressed that if Argentina finally selects the Indian offer for twelve aircraft, the company could replace different important components. Some 50 "big and small components" such as the refueling probe, nose cone, and Martin-Baker ejection seats with other alternatives are mentioned among these changes .

...

Now i am not sure why are we waiting for Argentina to select and then only we can replace this components. Why dont we have a export variant ready which has max of Indian part or in fact replace our existing imported components with Make in India ones for all exisiting and future Tejas. Why to wait for export order

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 03 Jan 2023 19:32

^^limited funds..although i wonder why wait for a basket case like argentina..do we have some commodities swap/exchange with them for this..also it'd upset UK..not worth the risk when chobham is providing radomes..