Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2022 21:10

SinghS wrote:I made a point. Obviously you and few others don't agree with that. It is ok.

I am not getting into any specifics, word-play or debate over it, as it will not add any value to the thread. You can take it or leave it.

Lets move past it.

Singh, it is your prerogative to reply or not. But if you are going to make a claim, then you have to back it up.

Making wild assumptions - without any evidence - about a program is not a very good learning strategy for other readers.

It reduces the value of the forum. The better path forward would be to be a silent lurker and just read. Do not provide gyaan on topics of which you have no knowledge about. That is clearly evident in the fact that you are unable to provide any evidence to counter what I or KaranM have replied in relation to your posts.

A simple advice would be henceforth to be just a lurker on this topic. Please do not post as it derails the thread and it forces other posters to counter those claims. This could have all been avoided, if you just did not make unsubstantiated claims.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2022 23:28

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7685&p=2557745#p2557745

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jul 2022 05:32

SinghS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:And then Ramana-ji the calls will begin. Since America is 45 years ahead of India in terms of aviation design and know-how, we should shut down our aviation industry and buy American.
Rakesh-Ji, I am still in Jai Shri Ram mode not Assalam alaikum mode.

What I said was not to diss our efforts, but to point out that we have to go a long way. We have just started walking in the area of aerospace engineering. India is well poised to march ahead and be at the forefront, but it would take another generation of scientists and a national effort to reach the top.

Ok. What do you gain by that nugget? Especially in a thread that is celebrating the progress so far?
Too much gnan at the wrong time doesn't help endear oneself.
Also, it is not like USAF is the challenger or the sole arbiter of technology.
See how much any other air force can afford with USAF systems?

Folks no more discussion. T
Thanks.
ramana

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jul 2022 05:35

Kartik wrote:HAL's CMD R Madhavan has confirmed that all 32 Tejas Mk1 single-seat fighters have been produced and 30 have been collected by the IAF. 2 were remaining of which 1 was in the process of being collected by the IAF and the other will be collected soon as well.

With that, HAL has wrapped up all Tejas Mk1 single-seat fighter production activities. Now they are targeting to deliver the 4+4 trainers to the IAF starting from this year and going into next year as the new trainer production line ramps up. HAL's focus is firmly on the Tejas Mk1A now, to get all certifications and testing done prior to the start of delivery from 2024-25.

Pretty good post for it tells the status in a few lines.
We know that Mk1A prototype has already flown with the avionics packages.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Jul 2022 06:17

This is certainly good news and a welcome development. If one squadron more could be produced per year, would push all versions of the Tejas along. Just think of the aerospace development and knowledge base gained.

I see no need to import foreign fighter aircraft.

basant · Post by **basant** » 13 Jul 2022 11:04

Kartik wrote:HAL's CMD R Madhavan has confirmed that all 32 Tejas Mk1 single seat fighters have been produced and 30 have been collected by the IAF. 2 were remaining of which 1 was in the process of being collected by the IAF and the other will be collected soon as well.

This is confusing. So SP-26 is being collected? If so how was it to aid the testing and certification of Mk1A? Or does it mean that SP-26 is in a close enough configuration for the IAF to start using and providing feedback on the operational experience? Given the repeated use of the word 'prototypes', it looks like some pre-Mk1s are being used to for certification as well. The modus operandi looks similar to that of FOC. Test components on other a/c and integrate them to make the final product post-certification.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 13 Jul 2022 17:33

Fy 2022-23 4 trainers
Fy 2023-24 14 trainers+ 2 Tejas mk1a
Fy 2024_25 8 Tejas mk1a
Fy 2025-29 16 Tejas mk1a

Production rate

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jul 2022 20:25

basant wrote:This is confusing. So SP-26 is being collected? If so how was it to aid the testing and certification of Mk1A? Or does it mean that SP-26 is in a close enough configuration for the IAF to start using and providing feedback on the operational experience? Given the repeated use of the word 'prototypes', it looks like some pre-Mk1s are being used to for certification as well. The modus operandi looks similar to that of FOC. Test components on other a/c and integrate them to make the final product post-certification.

One thing is confirmed ---> there are multiple TD prototypes for the Mk1A. At least one (if not two) LSPs are being used as FTBs for the Mk1A. There is confirmation that some of the SPs are also being converted as FTBs for the Mk1A. HAL is doing the absolutely right thing here.

Eventually they will transition the entire (or at the least, a sizeable number) Mk1 units to Mk1A units. I really wish the GOI would order another 2 to 4 more Mk1A units to address the squadron shortage gap. It is not going to kill Air HQ to consider this.

Also see this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7878&start=360#p2557827

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 17 Jul 2022 15:00

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485849 ... ZtzvA&s=19 ---> On the aircraft front, we are looking ahead for the AMCA, LCA Mark-IA and LAC Mark -II a few years from now. The case for 114 MRFA is also progressing well. With this, it will not only strengthen the IAF but also will be a huge boost for the Indian aviation industry: IAF chief

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485926 ... 0a4uA&s=19 ---> For AMCA, we have committed 7 squadrons. The numbers for LCA Mark-II, we will take a call on it when the first production model comes: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jul 2022 18:54

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> Construction of all 83 Tejas Mk1A be completed by Feb 2030.

Time has been pushed by a year. Below is from Page 1 of this thread...

Planned Deliveries of Mk1A-FOC Single Seat Fighter - URL, 13 Aug 2021
• 2024: 2 aircraft
• 2025: 8 aircraft
• 2026: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2027: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2028: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2029: 14 - 16 aircraft

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 28 Jul 2022 11:50

The AC , India TV journo flew have radar capable of search and track on more than 64 targets . This capability is with 2052 only.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 28 Jul 2022 18:14

Source please?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 28 Jul 2022 21:34

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1eaKbNgeDevKX
At 4 mins , mark

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 28 Jul 2022 22:54

Two pilots sacrificed their lives today in a MiG-21 crash in Rajasthan. It literally makes me weep that here we have HAL willing to increase the production capacity of Mk1A, but the IAF is refusing to make a commitment to our own product and instead flying Russian junk.

Is it really not possible for executive authority to step in and force the induction of more LCA?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jul 2022 06:40

https://twitter.com/TheAvenger82/status ... u2_EGBYOZw ----> HAL has commenced flight trials of the upgraded version of Tejas MK-1A jets. It will be tested to fire Astra BVR missile, an AESA radar and equipped with EW suites. IAF will start receiving it from February 2024 with percentage of indigenous components increasing from current 61% to 76.74%

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jul 2022 06:47

Nihat wrote:Two pilots sacrificed their lives today in a MiG-21 crash in Rajasthan. It literally makes me weep that here we have HAL willing to increase the production capacity of Mk1A, but the IAF is refusing to make a commitment to our own product and instead flying Russian junk.
Is it really not possible for executive authority to step in and force the induction of more LCA?

Even if the orders for the Mk1A are increased now it will take a long time for new orders to have any effect on the production rate, meaning no effect on the phaseout duration for the remaining Mig-21's. Larger orders for the Mk1 several years ago on the other hand would have made a difference. But the IAF leadership kept dreaming about the MRCA, then the Make-in-India Single-engine-fighter boondoggle and now followed by MRFA, while their pilots kept flying museum pieces and the Tejas Mk1 remained only an afterthought. Ten or 15 years from now we will see a similar situation play out with ageing Mig-29's, Jaguars and Mirages while the Tejas Mk2 procurement is capped at 6 (or less) squadrons while the MRFA dream never materializes. By then the Air Marshals will probably have graduated to dreaming about F-35's or something else.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Jul 2022 09:08

Make the Chief mandatorily fly a Mig-21 once a week. Tejas orders will flow.

Not this once in a bluemoon sortie (after innumerable flight-checks) to convince the boys that the coffin isn't after all, a coffin

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 29 Jul 2022 09:45

Prem Kumar wrote:Make the Chief mandatorily fly a Mig-21 once a week. Tejas orders will flow.

Not this once in a bluemoon sortie (after innumerable flight-checks) to convince the boys that the coffin isn't after all, a coffin

FYI: for some of the BRF members your parents were not born when the
Mig 21 First flight took place on 16 June 1955

Mig 21

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 29 Jul 2022 18:23

IAF has planned to replace all Mig 21 SQ by 2025 (100-120 planes). The LCA available to replace them by 2025 is 50 planes (single seater + 18 double seater). IAF will be short of 70 planes, the active squadron numbers will further dip, which will be used to scare GOI to import MFRA. Why not HAL/MOD (IAF will not) ramrod HAL to start producing 24 planes/year from now (that by their own claim, they can by utilizing private partners). In my opinion, Tejas MK1A is ready, the biggest was 2052/Uttam radar and current sq are flying with that. We have crossed that bridge. While HAL in its infinite wisdom produces 18 trainers (for training current 36 units of single seater), by going after extra single-seater from the private sector (final assembly in HAL) we can bridge this number. Now, this is a stupid argument -what if HAL produces all fighters fast (and I am not talking about any extra assembly lines here), what it will do from 2028-2030. Either produce LCAMK2 or if that is not ready, have chai biscuit. But at least the nation will have 120 fighters.
HAL planning is great - They will make 18 trainers first and then the real fighters (even though trainers are combat capable), whereas in the whole world that is the opposite.

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 29 Jul 2022 18:57

^^^^Ridiculous.

Why is all of this on HAL??

They are a business.. They can't just produce extra stuff every year out of thin air with no serious investment.. And I'm talking billions of dollars

Its not just HAL involved here.. There are tons of subcontractors who would all need to be paid in advance if you want them to send their equipment quicker, They would need to hire more people, probably go source raw materials of their own etc etc

None of this can be achieved by just a kick up their backs.. We're not talking about making a student study 6 chapters a night instead of 4 here.

When HAL says they can reach 24 a year that implies that the necessary investment for that is guaranteed and so are future orders

What exactly does HAL even do after they hand over Mk1 early by say 2026 ?? No company in the world would simply let its production lines be idle for years with zero guaranteed orders.. Do they let all their employees, subcontractors and skilled workers go for three years while IAF makes up its mind???... Even Dassault slowed up its line while Raffy orders were down.

You want more Mk1As quicker?

Then you go to the IAF and make them sign a contract for Mk2 of at least 6-8 squadrons. Then you have MOD fund its development rather than just borrow money/assets from Mk1A program.

Once a guaranteed order is in place and HAL confident of its future income they can invest in increasing their Mk1A production rate knowing that by 2027-8 they can switch all these lines and workers to Mk2.

([i]Mods feel free to move this to Tejas thread if OT[/i])

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 29 Jul 2022 18:59

fanne wrote:IAF has planned to replace all Mig 21 SQ by 2025 (100-120 planes). The LCA available to replace them by 2025 is 50 planes (single seater + 18 double seater). IAF will be short of 70 planes, the active squadron numbers will further dip, which will be used to scare GOI to import MFRA. Why not HAL/MOD (IAF will not) ramrod HAL to start producing 24 planes/year from now (that by their own claim, they can by utilizing private partners). In my opinion, Tejas MK1A is ready, the biggest was 2052/Uttam radar and current sq are flying with that. We have crossed that bridge. While HAL in its infinite wisdom produces 18 trainers (for training current 36 units of single seater), by going after extra single-seater from the private sector (final assembly in HAL) we can bridge this number. Now, this is a stupid argument -what if HAL produces all fighters fast (and I am not talking about any extra assembly lines here), what it will do from 2028-2030. Either produce LCAMK2 or if that is not ready, have chai biscuit. But at least the nation will have 120 fighters.
HAL planning is great - They will make 18 trainers first and then the real fighters (even though trainers are combat capable), whereas in the whole world that is the opposite.

How can HAL start ramping up production to 24/year for 83 units? So they produce all their orders within 3.5 years? Can IAF absorb 24/year?

Contract for C295 stipulates that 40 made by TASL are delivered over 5 years at 8/year. Is this HAL’s fault too?

Order more, get more. It’s not rocket science but IAF has successful obfuscated the situation enough to put the entire blame on HALwhenever these matters are discussed. They even managed to make the MMRCA farce HAL’s fault. Let’s not ask where orders for LUH, LCH, HTT-40 are or where the sanction for IMRH is

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jul 2022 19:51

AkshaySG wrote:(Mods feel free to move this to Tejas thread if OT)

I moved it to this thread. Thank You.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 29 Jul 2022 19:56

Thanks for the answers. Let me answer few of them -
Can IAF absorb 24/year?
Absolutely. They are 12 sq short (240 planes, 480 pilots), the pilots of these sq are seconded to other active sq (agreed number will not be exactly 480 pilots, but lesser) + 5 sq of Mig 21 is getting retired. These pilots can easily move to LCA. There will be pilots, bases (real state), hangers, and all that. During WW2, Airforces around the world were inducting hundreds of fighters (some in thousands) per year. Agreed, apple to oranges comparison, but if there is a will....

I am not saying it is HAL problem. If you read carefully, I am saying HAL is the solution. (And the latest news, less than an hour ago, HAL is hinting that manufacture LCAMK1A from 2023 instead of 2024, to be verified of course). IAF will not want LCA any faster or more. I have given up on them. Till we have officers who are playing like Paki (with a gun to their head, if you do not fulfill my stupid wish I will shoot myself in the head, and guess what you will have to pay the price for it), you have to work around them. We are at 32 squadrons now. If 5 are retired (till 2025), we will be at 27 sq (TSP is at 24, depending on how you count) and we have 2 front war. Till 2025, we are adding perhaps 1 sq of LCA (12 SU30MKI if and when it comes is a replacement of already crashed SU30MKI, 21 Mig 29, perhaps may not ever happen given the world affair).
What do you think IAF will do or force the govt to do, go for emergency MFRA (and only Rafale can come faster, if that). We have order of 73 LCAMK1A. The money will eventually go to HAL and private players (maybe in 5-6 years). All I am asking is to disburse them in 3-4 years and get the LCA MK1A fast so that we can hold at 32 sq. Of course, I am assuming that increasing from 16/year to 24 per year needs very less funds (and I could be 100% wrong). I am basing that on HAL statement, where they have repeatedly said that they will increase their assembly capacity to 16 (and no further), but with help of private player, they can really scale it up to 24 per year. I think it is time to hold them to this promise.

As far as sitting idle later on, few things can happen 1) more LCAMK1A order, or 2)LCA MK2 starts being made from 2026 (current plan),or 3)LCA export order, Or 4)LCA sport 5) Chai biskoot (I personally am fine with it, if we get these planes in service faster, arrest falling number. I am hoping against hope, that seeing these in action, some IAF (or a more assertive political leadership) forces few more LCAMK1A down on IAF.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 29 Jul 2022 22:28

KSingh wrote: How can HAL start ramping up production to 24/year for 83 units? So they produce all their orders within 3.5 years? Can IAF absorb 24/year?

You understand that India is at war last 18 months !
In war like mission mode IAF can't absorb 24 planes/year would speaks laurels about the airshow champions at the helm.

I keep saying that all AVM and above cabal must be dismissed and rebuild command with the pilots and engineers who have fire in belly for war

This will also cutoff air supply pipe with retard Air Mashals of Chandigarh club.

skumar · Post by **skumar** » 29 Jul 2022 22:37

Force the ACM to resign and send a message.

At the very least, PMO should offer IAF brass to retire Bison squadrons earlier for every additional Tejas squadron ordered and initiated into service earlier than planned. Put the onus for additional deaths squarely on the brass. Stupid stunts like the ACM getting on a Bison no longer moves the needle.

If Germany can force its Navy Chief to resign for not falling in line wrt making comments on Ukraine whether right or not, we should take a lesson.

Not doing this putting the onus solely on the Modi GoI, don't talk about Atma Nirbhar nonsense when you allow your own ACM to talk unchecked and undermine our opportunities in Malaysia and Phillipines.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jul 2022 22:39

Skumar National Security is not a bazaar.
So such ideas won't be entertained.
Military is not a entity.
It's part of the executive.

skumar · Post by **skumar** » 29 Jul 2022 22:44

ramana wrote:Skumar National Security is not a bazaar.
So such ideas won't be entertained.
Military is not a entity.
It's part of the executive.

It is precisely because Germany does not consider its national security a bazaar that a serving Chief was forced to resign.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 29 Jul 2022 23:04

Haridas wrote:
KSingh wrote: How can HAL start ramping up production to 24/year for 83 units? So they produce all their orders within 3.5 years? Can IAF absorb 24/year?
You understand that India is at war last 18 months !
In war like mission mode IAF can't absorb 24 planes/year would speaks laurels about the airshow champions at the helm.

I keep saying that all AVM and above cabal must be dismissed and rebuild command with the pilots and engineers who have fire in belly for war

This will also cutoff air supply pipe with retard Air Mashals of Chandigarh club.

India might be at war but what has the response from the armed forces been? Have they dropped their attitude of perfect being the enemy of good enough?

Have they placed emergency orders for LCH, LUH, ATAGS, Astra? IIRC most of the above have been sent for further testing by the armed forces

Has IAF given up on their fantasy of 114+ gold plated MRFA and done the sensible thing of ordering additional 2-3 SQNs of Rafales, 1-2 SQNs of LCA MK.1A and full commitment to LCA MK.2?

War is there but Delhi generals are acting as though it’s business as usual.

mody · Post by **mody** » 01 Aug 2022 17:55

Fanne, HAL will manufacture the 18 2 seat trainers first due to the following reasons:

1). The order for 8 2 seat trainers is part of the original order for 40 Tejas MK1. This was planned for production, much before the Tejas MK1A order was finalised. Subsequently it would make much more sense to produce the 10 additional 2 seat trainers from the second order, along the production of the planes for the 1 order.
2). All the 2-seat trainers are to be as per MK1 FOC standard and not as per MK1A standard. The MK1A 1-seat variant is still be being developed and flight tested and will be ready for production (hopefully), by end of 2023 or early 2024. The production of the Mk1A single seat fighter can only begin from 2024 onwards.

HAL had committed that the production of MK1A variant would start after 36 months of placing the order. This is as per standard practice of most foreign manufacturers also. Now the only question is if the order for the MK1A could have been placed 1-1.5 years earlier and some of the effects of the delay due to covid could have been avoided.

The only way to increase to the production rate of Mk1A to 24 planes per year, is to increase the orders. Mod can order an additional 36-37 aircrafts, with the mandate that the production timeline to complete the entire order remains the same. This is also important for us, as we have never mass produced any domestically developed and manufactured high technology product. Mass production of very high quality and high technology product remains our Achilles heal, as a nation. In the future if we want to be able to produce 24+ Tejas MK2 and then AMCA, we have to start now and build up the infrastructure and ecosystem that can manage this kind of production rates, much before these platforms actually get ready for production.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 01 Aug 2022 18:33

mody wrote: This is also important for us, as we have never mass produced any domestically developed and manufactured high technology product. Mass production of very high quality and high technology product remains our Achilles heal, as a nation. In the future if we want to be able to produce 24+ Tejas MK2 and then AMCA, we have to start now and build up the infrastructure and ecosystem that can manage this kind of production rates, much before these platforms actually get ready for production.

Absolutely correct. And Elon Musk agrees with you!! In the video linked below he is talking about how design is overrated and manufacturing is underrated and establishing the production system for the manufacture of the Raptor rocket engine (for SpaceX's Starship/Super Heavy Lifter launch vehicle) is a 1000% to 10,000% more difficult vs coming up with the design, even with guaranteed orders!! This is going to be specially true for HAL going forward as it will need to build a new manufacturing line for a succession of new aircraft such as the Mk1A, then the MK2 and then AMCA.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 01 Aug 2022 21:29

mody wrote:Fanne, HAL will manufacture the 18 2 seat trainers first due to the following reasons:

1). The order for 8 2 seat trainers is part of the original order for 40 Tejas MK1. This was planned for production, much before the Tejas MK1A order was finalised. Subsequently it would make much more sense to produce the 10 additional 2 seat trainers from the second order, along the production of the planes for the 1 order.
2). All the 2-seat trainers are to be as per MK1 FOC standard and not as per MK1A standard. The MK1A 1-seat variant is still be being developed and flight tested and will be ready for production (hopefully), by end of 2023 or early 2024. The production of the Mk1A single seat fighter can only begin from 2024 onwards.

HAL have a separate assembly line for 2-seat trainers, so it should happen in parallel.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 01 Aug 2022 21:45

So, @HALHQBLR has this to say in its Annual Report for 2021-2022:

'The 83 LCA MK1A program attained a major milestone
with the *first flight of the prototype* held on 20th May,
2022.'

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/155 ... 2206Q&s=19

bala · Post by **bala** » 01 Aug 2022 21:56

IAF should listen to Elon Musk (creator of Tesla, SpaceX and more)

1. Make your Requirements less dumb - smarter people requirements are more dangerous since no one questions them.
// tis true of all the best of brochure claims
2. Don't add requirements just in case. Actually delete the ones you don't need to have. This is an exercise to justify each and every requirement critically.
3. Simplify and optimize only after 1 and 2
4. Accelerate cycle times
5. Automate - don't reverse these steps. It is useless to automate if you are deleting something or not optimized yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhuaVsOAMFc

If IAF did not change requirements frequently we could have had Tejas replace all the old relics by now. Every day another worthy spouting yet another brochure claim. Placing decent size orders would have caused acceleration in cycle times and more automation.

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Aug 2022 21:59

ldev wrote:
mody wrote: This is also important for us, as we have never mass produced any domestically developed and manufactured high technology product. Mass production of very high quality and high technology product remains our Achilles heal, as a nation. In the future if we want to be able to produce 24+ Tejas MK2 and then AMCA, we have to start now and build up the infrastructure and ecosystem that can manage this kind of production rates, much before these platforms actually get ready for production.
Absolutely correct. And Elon Musk agrees with you!! In the video linked below he is talking about how design is overrated and manufacturing is underrated and establishing the production system for the manufacture of the Raptor rocket engine (for SpaceX's Starship/Super Heavy Lifter launch vehicle) is a 1000% to 10,000% more difficult vs coming up with the design, even with guaranteed orders!! This is going to be specially true for HAL going forward as it will need to build a new manufacturing line for a succession of new aircraft such as the Mk1A, then the MK2 and then AMCA.

]

no country is going to help with this. , build, build, build and repeat ensuring quality control., hand hold supplier chains., More numbers will ensure economy.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Aug 2022 00:43

mody wrote:Fanne, HAL will manufacture the 18 2 seat trainers first due to the following reasons:

......

Mody sir, you actually are supporting my ascertain..
My point is subtle/ nuanced (and much of it is water under the bridge- but sadly the same attitude continues from all parties involved) -

Let me get my fear/conspiracy/probabilistic outcomes out of the way -
1. LCA mk1a somewhere in the future will not help in the war that may come this or next or after that year. War may or may not happen or we may choose to back down because we do not have an absolutely certain capability to have an outcome in our favor
2. LCA mk1a delayed and under some crisis situation (like Galwan), everyone will be jumping for quick foreign buy. A quick LCA somewhat mitigates that
3. We are short of 240 planes from 42 squadron numbers with another 350 (Mig 21, Jags, M2K and Mig 29) retiring in a decade. A shortfall of 600 planes, that have to be filled with 100-150 or so MFRA and 450 -LCA Mk1a, LCA MK2, and AMCA. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that any delay in LCAmk1a affects all the subsequent programs, giving space for 1 more foreign plane to come in (or MFRA number to go up by say 100%). This will also have the effect of any one of the programs being killed LCAMK2 or AMCA. (Now you know why is CAS so sure that MK2 is not coming). All the 450 indigenous planes have to be made in a decade (that is 45 planes/year). You cannot get there by making 83 LCAMK1a by 2030. Hell, in an ideal world (by our standard, in which LCAMK1A was envisioned in 2016 itself), LCA MK1a should have been ramping down now with 120 -150 planes made and LCA MK2 ramping up and completing by 2030 and AMCA picked from then to complete all 450 made by say 2035. Otherwise, you are running 5-10 years late, and giving room for one more foreign fighter to come in.
It is unsaid, but I bet IAF is betting on AMCA falling short, LCAMK2 too little too late. And by our delays we are giving them a perfect case for imports (I will agree 1000% with IAF, its primary and main aim is to fight and win - with any plane possible, even if of foreign origin).

To combat the shortage of fighters (600 are needed in 10 years) what are all parties doing?
1.IAF wants only 114 MFRA and nothing else. Happy to drag price negotiation for LCAMK1a for 5 years, 2016 to 2021. Guess who are the other parties who let it drag - HAL and MOD.
2. HAL will only start prototyping LCAMK1A after the orders were given in 2021 and not by 2016, when it can use its funds to make HTT-40, 15 LAH etc etc. but cannot find funds to prototype LCAMK1a which involves 2052 radar and some rearrangement of LRUs. By its own admission, it is a minor change and will take 1-2 years to validate. It also makes 18 trainers, when we need fighters. It looks like it would be very happy to make under licence some foreign plane than a plane from ADA (after all, none of the ADA offices is in Europe or US). Yes it is true that we have heard of seperate lines for trainers, let the trainer be on that line, even if it does 2-3 trainers a year and make 10 LCAMK1A this fiscal and finish the whole damn order by 2026/27 and use that line for LCA Mk2order and finish some 120 of them 2032 , after that AMCA. If any of these programs are delayed, use that time for slow burn production of proven design (LCAMK1A, mk2 etc). Of course IAF has to play game here
3. How does MOD helps the situation - It will not release funds for LCAMK2 in time. A few years delay plays well, that means Mk2 is delayed, paving way for a foreign buy.

Boss pura tamasha hai.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Aug 2022 03:21

fanne don't let your fears drive your posts.
IAF can ask what they want. They will get what is available.
Even if you order F-35s now as MRFA they won't come till much later.

ACM looks like has seen the light today wrt MIG-21 and Mig 29 replacement.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Aug 2022 04:02

skumar wrote:
ramana wrote:Skumar National Security is not a bazaar.
So such ideas won't be entertained.
Military is not a entity.
It's part of the executive.
It is precisely because Germany does not consider its national security a bazaar that a serving Chief was forced to resign.

Which Chief?
The last senior German officer to resign was due to a political statement he made. Also he was Naval Vice Chief.
The last big mil scandal in Germany was the G36 induction which was also a beat up in a way. No chief resigned then as far as I can see.
So to cut a long story your statement appears nonsensical.
Plus dismissal from service is a serious affair so on what grounds - legally?
Pls don’t give us airy-fairy responses

basant · Post by **basant** » 02 Aug 2022 04:24

Ramana garu, if only your view was correct we'd be flying a hundred or two Tejas today. IAF wants something, the GoI doesn't like the choice. Meanwhile our strength may be reduced to that of PAF's and, God forbid, may even go lower. Are we depending on the mercy of Pak and China on not attacking us till IAF has purchased adequate planes? When Galwan happened, IAF went helter-skelter and deployed Naval Migs of all places in mighty Himalayas! While GoI can always be blamed for not being pushy enough, IAF is the primary reason for the mess and the force, going by recent interviews, has only become so audacious that it spins such ridiculous webs that won't fool even common citizens. The retirement of twin-engined Mig 29 UPGs, while considering purchase of 21 new jets and not even considering more Tejas squadrons, is only a pressure tactic for MRCA. The most ironical part in this entire episode is that there is a good probability that the next order of Tejas may not come from India at all. Let's reflect on that with circumspection.

skumar · Post by **skumar** » 02 Aug 2022 05:28

ks_sachin wrote:Which Chief?
The last senior German officer to resign was due to a political statement he made. Also he was Naval Vice Chief.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-navy-chief ... a-60525709
You were probably confused since his rank says Vice Admiral.

ks_sachin wrote:The last big mil scandal in Germany was the G36 induction which was also a beat up in a way. No chief resigned then as far as I can see.

Never mentioned about mil scandal.

ks_sachin wrote: So to cut a long story your statement appears nonsensical.
Plus dismissal from service is a serious affair so on what grounds - legally?

The CAS serves at the pleasure of the President and is a political appointee. Not being aligned with your political bosses is grounds enough. As in the example I have given, you need not be fired.

ks_sachin wrote: Pls don’t give us airy-fairy responses

I did not give google search results earlier to back up my assertion.
I have tried not to be personal

Please do try as well or we can both stop trying.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Aug 2022 06:00

Yeah, he was a Chief but he resigned and for making an overtly political statement.

The CAS serves at the pleasure of the president but is not a purely political appointee. Not being aligned to political bosses has to be something more concrete like deliberately contravening rules. Else the whole force will suffer and calls into question the whole selection process - which the government has mandated.

Google is useful and I did not get the substantive part it wrong did I since I identified the same German officer apart form his designation!!

I get personal when offhand comments about sacking chiefs is made. It is the gravest step and is to be taken with a great deal of care. Unfortunately, the procurement of LCA does not come into that bucket. IF that was the case then some of the previous army chiefs would have been considered as well as some former Navy chiefs for the Mig 29 acquisition.

If the government wants to bell the cat there are easier ways than to sack a chief.