Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[ks_sachin]

Adding that: “ However, HAL's president opportunely expressed that if Argentina finally selects the Indian offer for twelve aircraft, the company could replace different important components. Some 50 "big and small components" such as the refueling probe, nose cone, and Martin-Baker ejection seats with other alternatives are mentioned among these changes .

...

Now i am not sure why are we waiting for Argentina to select and then only we can replace this components. Why dont we have a export variant ready which has max of Indian part or in fact replace our existing imported components with Make in India ones for all exisiting and future Tejas. Why to wait for export order

Perhaps we dont have the capability as yet to replace. Afterall if we had it then the LCA would be flying with these no?
The nose cone saga is well known. We would have got there but that would have delayed the program.

[KSingh]

^^limited funds..although i wonder why wait for a basket case like argentina..do we have some commodities swap/exchange with them for this..also it'd upset UK..not worth the risk when chobham is providing radomes..

Argentina seems like a terrible candidate to be the first export customer for the LCA. They are a low-skilled (relatively speaking) conscript military that is always on the brink of economic collapse. Are they going to treat the birds with the TLC they deserve? Are they going to put a priority on availability?

This seems like another ALH/Ecuador fiasco waiting to happen, the LCA program does not need this

[ramana]

K Singh Arms sales always have a diplomatic angle to them.
I support Argentina sales as they are showing interest, unlike others.
Let's not always see dungeons in our castles in the air!

[ramana]

KS_sachin, It could be to ensure no arms sanctions from the UK govt on those products.

Some 50 "big and small components" such as the refueling probe, nose cone, and Martin-Baker ejection seats with other alternatives are mentioned among these changes.

nits, If HAL replaces those for IAF there will be screams of murder by the whole ecosystem and demand for new flight qualifications.
IAF still is import pasand. They have graciously agreed to Indian aircraft but with imported systems. And the entire country is grateful for this mercy.

The moral of this saga is India needs to make all major sub-systems if India wants to be in the arms export business.

BTW, Mk2 will make its first flight next year is what I see.

[Prem Kumar]

Its amazing that ADA/HAL is willing to make these 50 odd changes for a small order like this. To me, it suggests a few things:

1) We are taking exports very seriously. Even loss-leader exports like this one. Because we want to establish a foothold in the aerospace export market. This is a very good development. Once we become a big enough player, we can take a take-it or leave-it approach

2) The confidence we have in replacing these systems & flight qualifying the aircraft. Shows how far we have come

Hope we win this deal and many more

[suryag]

What IAF/IA did with LCA/Helina/ATAGS/and so many other items and they should get a "C-" on their ACRs, no matter how much someone tries to justify. The problem was that there was an ecosystem helping this horrendous thought and leaders in forces got so used to it that they messed up badly.

[BenG]

Its amazing that ADA/HAL is willing to make these 50 odd changes for a small order like this. To me, it suggests a few things:

1) We are taking exports very seriously. Even loss-leader exports like this one. Because we want to establish a foothold in the aerospace export market. This is a very good development. Once we become a big enough player, we can take a take-it or leave-it approach

2) The confidence we have in replacing these systems & flight qualifying the aircraft. Shows how far we have come

Hope we win this deal and many more

The reason is current Govt is pushing organizations to promote exports. So HAL has taken up this fool's errand. This is window dressing by HAL. It is one of the mild symptoms of 'pleasing political masters'. They are expending money and publicity on Argentina when they have far more important projects which need attention.

[ramana]

BenG,
If you want to contribute I suggest not taking potshots.

There is a thought process behind the HAL submission.
Thanks.

[ramana]

What IAF/IA did with LCA/Helina/ATAGS/and so many other items and they should get a "C-" on their ACRs, no matter how much someone tries to justify. The problem was that there was an ecosystem helping this horrendous thought and leaders in forces got so used to it that they messed up badly.

Still boggles my mind that IA wants a thermal sensor to hit a tank with the engine shut off in a hot desert. The folks inside the tank would all be pressure cooked.
And require Nag to hit a tank at 300m. The gyros don't get a chance to spin up in that short distance.
And thats in gun range.

[KSingh]

K Singh Arms sales always have a diplomatic angle to them.
I support Argentina sales as they are showing interest, unlike others.
Let's not always see dungeons in our castles in the air!

But what diplomatic angle is there to this? Argentina is an almost irrelevance to India and this move would hurt Indian-U.K. ties very very badly and at a time when they are trying to get an FTA worked out would be one of the most spectacular geological own goals india has scored in recent times

And for what? 12 LCA exported to a country that will barely be able to fly them?

Exporting at all costs doesn’t make sense. At least make the same efforts to win orders in Asia and with more consequential (to india) nations

[titash]

K Singh Arms sales always have a diplomatic angle to them.
I support Argentina sales as they are showing interest, unlike others.
Let's not always see dungeons in our castles in the air!

But what diplomatic angle is there to this? Argentina is an almost irrelevance to India and this move would hurt Indian-U.K. ties very very badly and at a time when they are trying to get an FTA worked out would be one of the most spectacular geological own goals india has scored in recent times

And for what? 12 LCA exported to a country that will barely be able to fly them?

Exporting at all costs doesn’t make sense. At least make the same efforts to win orders in Asia and with more consequential (to india) nations

KSingh Sirjee,

Since when do military clashes, let alone military sales, impact trade ties?

Europe is Russia's largest oil & gas client even today - 9 months after the war started

China is India's biggest trade partner even after the Ladakh & Arunachal skirmishes

We're trying to export the Tejas to countries that will stab us in the back given half a chance - Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Egypt. One may ask why not Argentina (with whom we really have no disputes)

I agree we should prioritize the Tejas for the IAF and boost falling squadron numbers. But if we can't absorb more than 1 squadron of light fighters per year, then why not export 10-20 more and keep the line warm whilst building up sales & customer service experience? We have to go through that lifecycle at some point. why not now?

The soviets built the largest / second largest arms export economy in the world not by sitting on their in-house products, but by exporting them - even at "friendship prices"...that itself builds overlapping cycles of long term dependency that can't be shaken off even after 50 years

[ramana]

KSingh not everything needs to be spelled out.
Any reply will get you a week off.
Ramana
Admin

[Kartik]

Argentina is sending a commission to India in mid January 2023 to assess the Tejas Mk1A offer. This will likely include deep dives into the technical capabilities of the Tejas Mk1A, plus access to the Tejas simulators, assembly lines, etc. so the Argentines can gauge for themselves what the Tejas Mk1A can offer versus the price.

...
One of the important aspects that has gone to its detriment is the large number of components of British origin that the TEJAS has, a situation that could replicate what happened with the KAI FA-50 Fighting Eagle light fighter .”

Adding that: “ However, HAL's president opportunely expressed that if Argentina finally selects the Indian offer for twelve aircraft, the company could replace different important components. Some 50 "big and small components" such as the refueling probe, nose cone, and Martin-Baker ejection seats with other alternatives are mentioned among these changes .

...

But sir, surely the achilles heel still remains the engine. There is just no getting around that fact.

Unkil will stop the sale on the prodding by their cousins-across-the-pond. And we just can't risk our own air force fighters getting grounded due to sanctions.

America has agreed to the sale of second hand Danish F-16 MLUs. So the question of the American engine does not arise IMO. The US also realised that if it did not agree to the sale of second hand Danish F-16s, it was going to hand over the Argentine market to the Chinks on a platter.

That is what they want to avoid, so any non Chinki option is better for the US.

[Kartik]

K Singh Arms sales always have a diplomatic angle to them.
I support Argentina sales as they are showing interest, unlike others.
Let's not always see dungeons in our castles in the air!

But what diplomatic angle is there to this? Argentina is an almost irrelevance to India and this move would hurt Indian-U.K. ties very very badly and at a time when they are trying to get an FTA worked out would be one of the most spectacular geological own goals india has scored in recent times

And for what? 12 LCA exported to a country that will barely be able to fly them?

Exporting at all costs doesn’t make sense. At least make the same efforts to win orders in Asia and with more consequential (to india) nations

the UK hasn't given a fig's leaf to Indian concerns on sales of weapons or anything else related to Pakistan. So why the hell should India care about them? Let them figure out how to defend Falklands with their own weapons, that isn't our concern.

Time we stopped worrying about spent powers like the UK. Let them woo India, if they know what's best for them.

[ks_sachin]

I agree with you but they have us by our short and curlies yes.

Our supply chain can wreck the LCA program if the Govts so decide.

Replacing the MB ejection seat - kiss the LCA goodbye. Min 2-3 years of further work integrating Russian Maal and more to develop our own.

Lets be realistic here.

[SidSoma]

kiss the LCA goodbye. Min 2-3 years of further work integrating Russian Maal and more to develop our own.

Lets be realistic here.

I do Agree with you on this point. The Brits also must realise that after the 2-3 years, we will never have another ejection seat or a radome from them again for another 50 years. One power has already understood the problem with sanctions its time its minions understood the same too.

[VishnuS]

Mostly Off-Topic Post!!!

Defence, Trade and Geopolitics are often interlinked and sometimes we confuse where they start and end. I hope Mods will forgive me for this post.

I just read that Argentina had leased us 2 Lithium Mines...

Did we get it in exchange MK1A export?? Who knows?

But we will not sell MK1A in its current condition. Chobham nose cone and Martin Baker seats, these two come to my mind as obstacles....

Coming to Trade deal with Brits... I'd say that Brits are more eager to do the deal than us....
Will they raise the issue of MK1A sales, Definitely!!
Will it permanently hurt India Brit relationship, No!!
Will the sale effect us, yes but I doubt it will not offset the gains from Lithium Mines that we got from Argentina.

[YashG]

Its amazing that ADA/HAL is willing to make these 50 odd changes for a small order like this. To me, it suggests a few things:

1) We are taking exports very seriously. Even loss-leader exports like this one. Because we want to establish a foothold in the aerospace export market. This is a very good development. Once we become a big enough player, we can take a take-it or leave-it approach

2) The confidence we have in replacing these systems & flight qualifying the aircraft. Shows how far we have come

Hope we win this deal and many more

If we replace these susbsystems - it is loss leader only in strict financial terms. The economic returns that will accrue to our MIC will outweigh the financial losses.

[YashG]

If Paxtan could buy anything UK at full price, Brits would sell them (MB Ejection seats do get into JF17 btw).

A lot of supply chain Turkey uses in order to supply paxtan might also have UK stuff inside it. Why should we care. UK & Argentina have no active hostilities btw. No Briton has been KIA in last 10 years by any overt/covert argentinian act. Not the same as in our case.

[Cyrano]

Sorry to throw water on the party, but I'm not convinced any third country will buy the Tejas with so many imported components starting with the engine itself - India has no way of guaranteeing their supply and maintenance irrespective of what assurances we give. Despite the strong alliance with US, JAS-Gripen failed to export because of this.

Its fine to showcase our bird internationally as an India brand building exercise and puff up our chest, I do as well. The best ever case is to sell as few as LIFT to the US/UK or a close NATO ally. But if we are expecting a real order for a dozen planes or so from a third country... won't happen. Unless such third country is incredibly wealthy or stupid, preferably both.

Lets build these birds in 100s for our needs first, with budgets from govt and acceptance from IAF. Thats good enough for my life time.

[KSingh]

But what diplomatic angle is there to this? Argentina is an almost irrelevance to India and this move would hurt Indian-U.K. ties very very badly and at a time when they are trying to get an FTA worked out would be one of the most spectacular geological own goals india has scored in recent times

And for what? 12 LCA exported to a country that will barely be able to fly them?

Exporting at all costs doesn’t make sense. At least make the same efforts to win orders in Asia and with more consequential (to india) nations

the UK hasn't given a fig's leaf to Indian concerns on sales of weapons or anything else related to Pakistan. So why the hell should India care about them? Let them figure out how to defend Falklands with their own weapons, that isn't our concern.

Time we stopped worrying about spent powers like the UK. Let them woo India, if they know what's best for them.

The U.K. is very sensitive to the falklands issue and will happily through the FTA out of the window for such a move

[KSingh]

Sorry to throw water on the party, but I'm not convinced any third country will buy the Tejas with so many imported components starting with the engine itself - India has no way of guaranteeing their supply and maintenance irrespective of what assurances we give. Despite the strong alliance with US, JAS-Gripen failed to export because of this.

Its fine to showcase our bird internationally as an India brand building exercise and puff up our chest, I do as well. The best ever case is to sell as few as LIFT to the US/UK or a close NATO ally. But if we are expecting a real order for a dozen planes or so from a third country... won't happen. Unless such third country is incredibly wealthy or stupid, preferably both.

Lets build these birds in 100s for our needs first, with budgets from govt and acceptance from IAF. Thats good enough for my life time.

The Gripen (Legacy and NG) has many export orders, the KF-50 too

Of course ensuring these things are churned out by the 100s is essential for marketability but I don’t think the engine is as much of an issue as that especially considering how many countries have defence procurement from the US. Radars and missiles though are important to have an indigenous solution for

[Cyrano]

The Gripen (Legacy and NG) has many export orders, the KF-50 too

Please check who ordered, how many, what type of contract and if they fit the two criteria above.

BTW anyone evaluating LCA can also evaluate gripen no? Much as I love our Tejas and it may be quite ok for our neighborhood wrt the width of north Pakistan or Andamans to Malacca, and costal defense, for anything more it has to be in Gripen's weight and range class. That's why Mk2 is so important. Will expand safe and sure mission envelopes further.

Any country evaluating Tejas Mk1 should have the kind of mission envelopes I cited as _their worst case scenario_ in their neighborhood threat perceptions. When you add all that up, the Tejas export probability function tends towards "infinity" let's say.

Not dissing our bird at all, but that's the reality as I see it.

[vera_k]

It will happen eventually. If the PSUs have to operate like any other corporation, they need to learn to sell in a competitive marketplace. Its to be expected that there are some false starts.

[la.khan]

Sorry to throw water on the party, but I'm not convinced any third country will buy the Tejas with so many imported components starting with the engine itself - India has no way of guaranteeing their supply and maintenance irrespective of what assurances we give. Despite the strong alliance with US, JAS-Gripen failed to export because of this.

Its fine to showcase our bird internationally as an India brand building exercise and puff up our chest, I do as well. The best ever case is to sell as few as LIFT to the US/UK or a close NATO ally. But if we are expecting a real order for a dozen planes or so from a third country... won't happen. Unless such third country is incredibly wealthy or stupid, preferably both.

Lets build these birds in 100s for our needs first, with budgets from govt and acceptance from IAF. Thats good enough for my life time.

+1. 100% agreed. Let our bird, be it Mk1/Mk1A, participate in air shows, domestic/international/whatever. Let it gather some eyeballs/interest through its performance, cost, delivery platform for weapons, ease of maintenance etc.

All this talk of Tejas exports is just hawa baazi Not one Tejas will be exported till our own IAF induct it in numbers. Let HAL produce those 80+ MK1As. On budget, on time, and quality. Let IAF induct & deploy them on the front line (LoC/LAC). Let the machine speak for itself in the field. Till then, Tejas for export will remain a pipe dream. Sorry if I have ruffled nationalist/patriot feathers.

[Kartik]

I agree with you but they have us by our short and curlies yes.

Our supply chain can wreck the LCA program if the Govts so decide.

Replacing the MB ejection seat - kiss the LCA goodbye. Min 2-3 years of further work integrating Russian Maal and more to develop our own.

Lets be realistic here.

They won't dare do anything of that kind. They desperately want trade with India to prosper for THEIR own sake. And they're well aware of what India's long term trajectory is like and which side of it that they'd like to be. I'm sure they can see how strong India-France strategic ties have become and what that means in the long term for defence as well as other sectors.

[Kartik]

the UK hasn't given a fig's leaf to Indian concerns on sales of weapons or anything else related to Pakistan. So why the hell should India care about them? Let them figure out how to defend Falklands with their own weapons, that isn't our concern.

Time we stopped worrying about spent powers like the UK. Let them woo India, if they know what's best for them.

The U.K. is very sensitive to the falklands issue and will happily through the FTA out of the window for such a move

It'll end up hurting them much more than us. Post Brexit they are desperate for improved trade ties and it is for their own benefit. If they're willing to throw the FTA out of the window to punish India for selling 12 Tejas Mk1A (if that happens) then India should be strong enough to tell them to go take a hike. And our current GoI dispensation is exactly like that- they won't take any such threats lightly and will be blunt on Indian interests and safeguarding it.

[Kartik]

The Gripen (Legacy and NG) has many export orders, the KF-50 too

Please check who ordered, how many, what type of contract and if they fit the two criteria above.

BTW anyone evaluating LCA can also evaluate gripen no? Much as I love our Tejas and it may be quite ok for our neighborhood wrt the width of north Pakistan or Andamans to Malacca, and costal defense, for anything more it has to be in Gripen's weight and range class. That's why Mk2 is so important. Will expand safe and sure mission envelopes further.

Any country evaluating Tejas Mk1 should have the kind of mission envelopes I cited as _their worst case scenario_ in their neighborhood threat perceptions. When you add all that up, the Tejas export probability function tends towards "infinity" let's say.

Not dissing our bird at all, but that's the reality as I see it.

just look at the FA-50 sales and you'll get your answer. Gripen C/D has flat lined as far as export sales go due to a higher price tag and Gripen E/F has failed to find any new buyers after Brazil and that has nothing to do with the engine being American. It has much more to do with the politics of each country and how that dictates whom to buy from. Sweden being a political lightweight with little geostrategic importance hurts Saab much more than the capability of it's fighters.

SoKo has succeeded with the FA-50 due to the affordable price versus a safe reliable lightweight fighter trainer powered by an American engine. That is in fact an advantage, given how reliable the F-404/F-414 engine family has been.

PS- Poland just ordered 50 FA-50s and they're a NATO partner.

Tejas Mk1 and Gripen C/D are in the same weight, range and payload class. Not sure what you mean by "Gripen's weight and range class". If you're referring to the Gripen E/F then be specific. Obviously the Tejas Mk1 can't compete with the Gripen E/F which is a bigger and newer bird. For that , the Tejas Mk2 will be in the same class as the Gripen E/F.

[venkat_kv]

Tejas to IAF is like the food being force fed by the mother to her child that the child has never eaten before. Unless there is a systemic change in the mindset of the IAF as a whole, there will be resentment. No amount of changes at the top officers are going to fix this problem. I can equate this problem to my own issue of shoes not available in India (for my size, which is 13W). I still don't get it and when I visit India I do visit different showrooms in anticipation of availability. It is not because I want to use those shoes but just curiosity to know if they are available as I am so used to shoes that I have buying in USA for the last 20 odd years. It is the same thing with IAF and HAL. HAL needs to build something that is proven to be better than those available from foreign OEM's, IAF has not been used to HAL products that are proven world class and that is the elephant in the room. The only instance IAF has accepted Tejas has been when the govt has showed it under the IAF's throat. They need to do it again. If the Govt wants to go just with the stick, then it is Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 or if they want to go with a carrot and a stick, it will be 2-4 squadrons of Rafale and the rest will be Tejas Mk1A & Mk2.

I would’ve thought that Doklam, Galwan and Balakot+PAF’s response would be enough to wake up the Indian military to the futility of perfect being the enemy od good enough and what’s available domestically today is worth a lot more than what they could get 15 years down the line from RFIs to foreign OEMs

But every time they were granted additional funding they used it to buy more toys from abroad.


Part of the reason the Chinese are building up so rapidly is because they have an MIC entirely devoted to them, india going around the houses with tenders that go nowhere and contract talks with OEMs that drag out for years is leaving an open goal.

Alas it’s both so obvious and avoidable but here we are. The RFI for towed guns implicitly launched to get foreign toys and the splitting of the light tank requirement really sealed it for me. Indian military is never going to change by themselves. They’ll need to be taught some lessons on the battlefield sadly

Careful KSingh Saab, in your zeal/frustration of the IAF not pushing for more tejas you are asking for something that will have long term implications for the country.
Even if the so called lessons on the battlefield are learnt, can you guarantee with the sold out presstitutes they would go desi weapons? they will clamor for more foreign silver bullet types saying that would have turned the tide of the battle with lesser casualties and all that.
Your efforts will be better spent in trying to trace out the key stake holders in ordering and pushing for program success and asking for the same and pushing for answers or reforms whether its defense secretary, MOD officials or Defense Minister or the top brass.
Your last highlighted statement is dangerously putting you in the same category of anti-nationals that wish some ill on India hoping it will stop PM Modi - cutting down the nose to spite the face and all that also applied here.

[mody]

Apparently 2 nos of updated uttam AESA radars have been delivered to HAL for flight testing. The TR module count has been increased to 912 from the previous 760-780 TR modules. Don't know if this would require all the tests already carried out with the previous version of the Uttam to be repeated.

Sometime back it was reported that instead of Uttam replacing the 2052 Aesa radar from the 21st MK1A aircraft, the plan has not been changed to 41st aircraft. The last 33 MK1A aircrafts would carry the Uttam and the first 40 would have the 2052 Aesa. The above news that the latest updated model of the Uttam has been fabricated and handed over to HAL for testing, would lend credence to this story.
Lesser number of the MK1As would carry the Uttam, but we will get a better radar, mostly as capable or better than the 2052, which is no mean feat. The first batch of 32 single seat MK1s, will also be eventually upgraded to the MK1A standard with the Uttam.

Hopefully we can get our indigenous SDR and EW pod also ready by the time the Uttam is ready for the MK1A.

By the time the Tejas MK2 is ready for production, we might see a further upgraded version of the Uttam. The second batch of Mk2, (IAF has currently committed to 6 squadrons, with a possibility of additional orders), might even see a GaN based Uttam version.

[KSingh]

I would’ve thought that Doklam, Galwan and Balakot+PAF’s response would be enough to wake up the Indian military to the futility of perfect being the enemy od good enough and what’s available domestically today is worth a lot more than what they could get 15 years down the line from RFIs to foreign OEMs

But every time they were granted additional funding they used it to buy more toys from abroad.


Part of the reason the Chinese are building up so rapidly is because they have an MIC entirely devoted to them, india going around the houses with tenders that go nowhere and contract talks with OEMs that drag out for years is leaving an open goal.

Alas it’s both so obvious and avoidable but here we are. The RFI for towed guns implicitly launched to get foreign toys and the splitting of the light tank requirement really sealed it for me. Indian military is never going to change by themselves. They’ll need to be taught some lessons on the battlefield sadly

Careful KSingh Saab, in your zeal/frustration of the IAF not pushing for more tejas you are asking for something that will have long term implications for the country.
Even if the so called lessons on the battlefield are learnt, can you guarantee with the sold out presstitutes they would go desi weapons? they will clamor for more foreign silver bullet types saying that would have turned the tide of the battle with lesser casualties and all that.
Your efforts will be better spent in trying to trace out the key stake holders in ordering and pushing for program success and asking for the same and pushing for answers or reforms whether its defense secretary, MOD officials or Defense Minister or the top brass.
Your last highlighted statement is dangerously putting you in the same category of anti-nationals that wish some ill on India hoping it will stop PM Modi - cutting down the nose to spite the face and all that also applied here.

All valid points but it’s got to the point where something has to change. The system hasn’t shown it can do this organically, the stories of LCA, Arjun, LCA, ATAGSZ ETC ETC are beyond sickening and the longer this plays out the more projects will go this way. LCA MK.2, AMCA, IMRH, LUH/LCH etc are next in line

[Pratyush]

KSingh,

When the PM of India has to point out the import addiction of the Indian armed forces. You know that things are not good. The government is aware of the fact.

While Ramana thinks that the purse strings are going to change the behaviour of the forces. I believe simple purse strings are not going to be sufficient.

Given the attention this import addiction has drawn of the PMO. I am optimistic about the government of India taking the necessary measures to compel the forces into taking logical decisions. It may not be to the time line of our liking. But it will happen.

[ks_sachin]

Pratyush ji,

But it has to be full spectrum.

If the government is serious then it had to do things seriouly across all aspects of the defence set up.

This includes appointments like the CDS. Both of the CDS appointments thus far have been problematic.

Security Strategy is another.

Many others

[Pratyush]

I agree with you about the full spectrum requirements.

But at the same time I think that within the security establishment. If the consensus is that, we are going to be in a two front war. Then the capacity has to be built for that.

NSS or it's absence not withstanding.

NSS is a something that can be spelt out over the next few years. But defence capacity should not be a hostage to the absence of the NSS.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7884

I think that this thread can be repurposed for a full spectrum discussion of NSS in Indian context.

[BenG]

KSingh,

When the PM of India has to point out the import addiction of the Indian armed forces. You know that things are not good. The government is aware of the fact....

It may not be to the time line of our liking. But it will happen.

Well said. Crystal clean opinion on the state of our armed forces.

To be frank, the strategic thinking in our military does not seem to draw from history. Ancient, medieval and modern history itself teaches us time and again that relying on our own strength is far more important than depending on technology imports from west. The French supplied the Sikh kingdoms with superior artillery than what the English had. But during first Anglo-Sikh war, the cannons were left on the battlefields in retreat despite superior numbers in infantry, cannons and cavalry. The same was true with tippu sultan down south. When you rely on own strength, the capacity to wage war is a true option. Otherwise, its a pseudo-option, which will be exposed when reality strikes.

There is this video of how import of expensive war horses drained the south Indian kingdoms and made Delhi Sultanate the hegemon of the sub-continent.
South Indian empires bought Mongol war horses to fight against the Delhi Sultanate. But the Sultanate's tactics and grand strategy triumphed over all the wealth and effort spent on imported horses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-_RHyHeZIo&t=198s

[Cyrano]

It's not just about whether an acquired capability is imported or not. It's about mastering its usage in the field and integrating it into one's own existing structure and capabilities, including adapting the capability or the structure to make the combination as effective as possible.

LCA being a home grown product designed ground up by Indian designers and pilots for India's needs, it should be a very effective and high performance product if is works as designed.

[KSingh]

KSingh,

When the PM of India has to point out the import addiction of the Indian armed forces. You know that things are not good. The government is aware of the fact.

While Ramana thinks that the purse strings are going to change the behaviour of the forces. I believe simple purse strings are not going to be sufficient.

Given the attention this import addiction has drawn of the PMO. I am optimistic about the government of India taking the necessary measures to compel the forces into taking logical decisions. It may not be to the time line of our liking. But it will happen.

As mentioned, rhetoric has to be backed up by policy/action.


Seeing the import addiction is clear for all to see, doing something about it is the challenge.

Sure this PM/GoI has tried to tackle this more than any predecessors but with very mixed results.


The negative import list was a step in the right direction but then the cavets within it are large enough to drive a bus through aka imports will still be considered as long as they are assembled locally

The ATHOS/ATAGS saga and LCA MK.2 number culls has shown the import addiction remains unchecked. Imports seem to remain the default position

[ashishvikas]

^^ PMO need to find a Defence Minister. We are missing someone like Manohar Parrikar big time.

On a similar line - Train18 was also derailed by many years by import lobby till Shri Ashwini Vaishnaw arrives.

[Jits]

^^ PMO need to find a Defence Minister. We are missing someone like Manohar Parrikar big time.

On a similar line - Train18 was also derailed by many years by import lobby till Shri Ashwini Vaishnaw arrives.

Ashwani Vaishnaw has a good engineering background and was instrumental in Train-18 revival and 5G rollout, he can be a good replacement for Manohar Parrikar and should be promoted as defense minister.

[Aditya_V]

Some nice info in this video



Last 2 FOC single seat and 4 Trainers will be delivered by Mar 23

The rest of 16 trainers during FY23-24 and then 2 or 3 Mk1A also by Mar 24, after that 16 aircraft per year.

Order more and HAL and suppliers will be able to deliver more, High time some more MK1A and may be Naval LCA are ordered- 60 or So to get the HAL production ecosystem running so that the everything is place before TEDBF and Mk2 can be ordered in Nos along with AMCA.