Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

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VishnuS
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by VishnuS »

Rakesh wrote:
VishnuS wrote:Let me also make another claim while we are at it, they would want MK1A with Uttam and Aastra Mk2.
The article states Mk1A, so it will have an AESA.

Astra Mk2 is still a bit ways off. Astra Mk1 is more likely.
Sir there are couple of reasons for my prediction...

I am sure you and other gurus know them too, but hear me again

1. Order hasn't been concluded yet, so there is still time.
Even when order is finalized, they will start receiving after 2 to 3yrs from the day of signing the order. At least 5 plus years before 1st delivery to Malaysia

2. Yes, MK1A will have AESA, but which one? ELTA 2052 or UTTAM(to my knowledge, 100% integration is not completed) but any sane person would want fewer suppliers. Malaysia might have less headache if they go for Uttam, if would be funny to say they haven't gotten a sneak peak into the testing (at least heard about the progress)

3. Same goes for Aastra MK2. By the time Malaysian deliveries start, we would have integrated MK2 into our Tejas aircraft. To my knowledge, Singapore their close rival don't have Aim 120D yet, and getting edge over your would be opponent is definitely desirable. Moreover neither Israel nor India would be happy to integrate Aastra MK2 with ELTA 2052(for an export country). Cost of Aim 120s and other western missiles wrt to Aastra MK1 and MK2 will also come into play.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

I concede Admiral. A point well made
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Tanaji »

The Tejas saga is a case of a dog catching his tail finally and not knowing what to do with it. Ever since the programme started the IAF was content to let ADA and DRDO do its thing and keep itself at arms length. It regarded this as a vanity project and as long as it got its own imported fighters, it wanted nothing to do with the project beyond giving them ASQRs. There was and still is to some extent, no sense of pride or attempt to nurture a homegrown fighter. For it, only the Migs, Sukhois and Mirages would do.

Come the 2000s, the programme could no longer be ignored as it had gotten over the initial learning curve and sanctions. IAF grudgingly supported the programme after that deputing pilots in the design team. Now they have gotten a world class fighter with certain limitations (some of which due to their own ASQR), they don’t know what to do with it, similar to the dog who finally catches its own tail after trying..

Sad state of affairs.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

It's being sorted out.
Most likely will have a new factory to be built for Tejas line.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: India offers to set up production facilities for light combat aircraft, copters in Egypt

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 477494.cms
Sources said the Egyptian Air Force has a requirement of close to 70 light combat jets.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by SidSoma »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B1uTCaInDA

As per this video The final configuration Mk1A has already completed first flight watch 2:10 onwards
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

SidSoma wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B1uTCaInDA

As per this video The final configuration Mk1A has already completed first flight watch 2:10 onwards
What he meant was perhaps LRUs and other components being tested on the FOC testbed. That way the first flight happened when Uttam was integrated sometime back!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

SidSoma wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B1uTCaInDA

As per this video The final configuration Mk1A has already completed first flight watch 2:10 onwards

SidSoma if HVT or Indranil does not say it then it is not so!!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Such sub-systems could likely be the first of a number of French sub-systems onboard the Tejas Mk1A and even the Tejas Mk2.

https://twitter.com/Prnv_up01/status/15 ... Vd6XgXWELw ---> India's upcoming 83 Tejas Mk1A fighters to carry the same mission recorders as Rafales. VS1410/VS1510 airborne recorders are also equipped on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets in operation with the Indian Air Force.

VS1410/VS1510 airborne recorders ---> https://www.safran-group.com/products-s ... vironments

Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Kartik »

ks_sachin wrote:
SidSoma wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B1uTCaInDA

As per this video The final configuration Mk1A has already completed first flight watch 2:10 onwards

SidSoma if HVT or Indranil does not say it then it is not so!!
it is confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur that the first flight of the Tejas Mk1A has occurred a long time ago. Check his latest tweet where he put a picture of the sweets packaged specially for HAL with the label printed "Specially packed for HAL. First Flight of LCA Mk1A".
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

Tejas Mk1A protoypes have already clocked quite a few hours in Summer 2022.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/154 ... pINLWyG4oQ

Tejas Mk-1A deliveries to the IAF are programmed to kick-in from FY 2024-25. And I think all stakeholders are confident about this timeline. Only the first lot of units will have the EL/M-2052 AESA. The rest will have the indigenous Uttam AESA FCR which is ready.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/154 ... pINLWyG4oQ
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by nachiket »

If this is true I am gobsmacked by the indifference shown by HAL about publicizing this. It is one thing not to have a marketing department but you can at least have a press release.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Not to spoil the mood but I think HAL is correctly circumspect about it. We are talking of configuration, not the aircraft itself. For instance, FOC certification was achieved without the first example being built! We have to keep in mind that IOC's themselves can be brought to FOC standards in most of the capabilities, but not the build itself. For instance, they are still not capable of mid-air refueling. Given that Mk1A's internal are going to be different, it is apt to say that Mk1A components are being tested and not the Mk1A itself.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by nam »

So it flew in March!

https://twitter.com/Raghav_kidambi/stat ... 6168887296
LCA tejas SP26 prototype - First Landing. A date to Remember 28/03/21
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

That tweet is not celebrating the first flight of Mk1A, but first flight of SP-26 in Mk1 avatar.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Reviving the RMAF | A tangible guide : LCA Tejas Acquisition
https://alphadefense.in/reviving-rmaf-lca/
01 July 2022
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ArjunPandit »

Admiral-ji, someone is doing jakat on your behalf.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15427 ... UW2ePQU7ow ---> BTW, had this a long time ago.

Image

Image
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

ArjunPandit wrote:Admiral-ji, someone is doing jakat on your behalf.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15427 ... UW2ePQU7ow ---> BTW, had this a long time ago.
I saw that tweet :)

I am not discounting what HVT Sir is saying. I am only saying that the tweet that nam posted is not celebrating the first flight of Mk1A, but first flight of SP-26 in Mk1 avatar. The date of that tweet (28-Mar-2021) ties into the first flight of SP-26. Below is from Page 1 of the Mk1 thread...

• Line 1 ... SP-26 ... LA-5022 ... 27-Mar-2021 ... Group Captain Ashish Srivastava (Retd)

Now if HAL tacitly flew SP-26 on 26 Mar 2021 (or later) in Mk1A avatar, I would not know :mrgreen:
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by sivab »

^^^ LA-5021 is Mk1A proto per this tweet and retweeted by HVT.

https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... KqyOkqAAAA
LA-5021
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ShivS »

I doubt this would be done lightly. Wonderful news.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ramana »

Sometime back there was news of an IAF FOC Mk1 handed over to HAL for conversion to Mk1A standard.
This must be # LA-5021.
This means the LRUs are developed and relocated in the fuselage.
And new cable harness due to the relocated packages.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

The news was two of them were handed for LCAMK1A to speed up things - one being SP-26.

Now what is interesting is that 7 of the completed FOC is waiting with HAL. 2 of them are being used for LCAMK1A . What's going with another 5? Are they at FOC standard or being upgraded to LCAMK1A or some other reason?
The best-case scenario is that FOC to LCAMKIA is mostly plug and play. The worst case is that it takes 1-2 years of testing. My take is, maybe 3 months of validation (not testing) with 2052 and 6-12 months worth of validation and testing with Uttam and then 1 specimen for continuous development and debugging.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Anujan »

This was tweeted by HVT March 2020

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12399 ... 01?lang=en
Flavour of the day....

Maiden flight of LCA FOC series production fighter SP-21 tail number LA-5021, piloted by HAL's Chief of Test Flying, Air Commodore KA Muthana VSM.
So SP-21 is LA-5021
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

So we have one under strength squadron?
Brilliant!!
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:So we have one under strength squadron?
Brilliant!!
The squadron is not even raised yet :)

We don’t even know which squadron.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Rakesh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:So we have one under strength squadron?
Brilliant!!
The squadron is not even raised yet :)

We don’t even know which squadron.
For FOC? Here is some old news.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) formally inducted into service the first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-1 in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard on Wednesday, and operationalised its second LCA squadron No. 18 ‘Flying Bullets’.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Basant, I am referring to the Mk1A and not Mk1.

There are two Mk1 units - one IOC and the other FOC. The IOC is at full strength and the FOC unit is working towards that.

This is the Mk1A thread…
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Oops, my bad. I was confused as the Mk1As are to be delivered from 2024 onwards.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

I hope I am not starting rumor. What I was saying is that 7 lca planes have flown but not delivered. 2 of them are being used for lca mk1a validation. What is the story with the other 5? IAF is short on plane, they would have lapped these. Reason of delay could be any, but the best would be that they may them selves be getting to mk1a level. If that’s the case, sq 18 will get these mk1a. But everything is speculation at this time.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:Basant, I am referring to the Mk1A and not Mk1.

There are two Mk1 units - one IOC and the other FOC. The IOC is at full strength and the FOC unit is working towards that.

This is the Mk1A thread…
Admiral please give me some credit.

I was talking of today. If FOC ac are being diverted for MK1A testing that leaves the second sq short is it not?

MK1A squadrons are still a while away.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Admiral please give me some credit.

I was talking of today. If FOC ac are being diverted for MK1A testing that leaves the second sq short is it not?

MK1A squadrons are still a while away.
I am again not discounting what HVT Sir, Saurav Jha and others have stated on twitter and in this thread.

And the second squadron has not received her full complement of single seaters (16) as of yet. Air Chief VR Chaudhari recently stated (http://tinyurl.com/46uhwyum) that all 40 IOC/FOC aircraft will be delivered by 2023. That is 32 single seaters and 8 twin seaters in two squadrons --> No 45 and No 18.

Of the 32 single seaters, 31 aircraft have officially flown to date. That can be confirmed from page 1 of the Tejas Mk1 thread. Some twitterati are stating that the 32nd single seater has also had her first flight. I have not seen official confirmation of that. If there is, I have missed it.

Now if "some" FOC aircraft are really being converted to Mk1A variants, what that points to is that No 18 Squadron could eventually have all her 16 single seaters be of the Mk1A variety. It does not make sense for a squadron to operate two different types. It will hamper pilot training and likely even the training of the maintenance crews.

And if "some" FOC aircraft are really being converted to Mk1A variants, the IAF will have five Mk1A squadrons, instead of four. If the first IOC squadron - No 45 - is also converted, then the IAF will then have six squadrons. I believe the plan was to eventually convert the first two Mk1 units into MK1A units eventually.

It was my understanding that it was a pair of LSP-series of aircraft were being converted into Mk1A flying prototypes. If that plan has been changed to convert Mk1s from the FOC unit into Mk1As, then that is a welcome step. But what it does not suggest that the IAF has an under strength Mk1A squadron because there is no Mk1A operational unit in the IAF to begin with. No number plated squadron has been resurrected (as of yet) for that purpose.

P.S. Sulur AFS is perfect for the two units (No 45 and No 18) to iron out their teething issues with the Tejas. All platforms undergo this and Tejas is no different. Let HAL and IAF iron out whatever issues need to be addressed with these two units. Let them pull out platforms from these units - if required - to do whatever is necessary. That is why these two units exist in the first place.

The real deal will be the four Mk1A units. That will be the game changer (AESA, Astra Mk2, etc) for the IAF. When the first Mk1A unit is raised, it will be operational and be ready to stand shoulder to shoulder with any other operational IAF fighter squadron. There are four Bison units left in the IAF and these will be replaced with four Mk1A units as a one to one replacement. My dream and hope is that the defence of Srinagar (currently being performed by No 51 Sword Arms I believe) will be taken over by the Tejas Mk1A.

But what we do not want is when the first operational Mk1A unit is raised (from the 83 order), a variety of issues are raised which will hamper the Mk1A's ability to do an effective job. That is No 18 Squadron's job and if those tweets are true, then that is what is happening.

If my memory is not failing me, I believe the Bison has the fastest response time when on ORP duty. The Bison is a one trick pony and sometimes that one trick is exactly what you need, as displayed so effectively on 27 Feb 2019. That record that the Bison holds, I believe has been beaten by the Tejas. But I will need to confirm. So don't hold me to that :)
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Rakesh wrote:If my memory is not failing me, I believe the Bison has the fastest response time when on ORP duty. The Bison is a one trick pony and sometimes that one trick is exactly what you need, as displayed so effectively on 27 Feb 2019. That record that the Bison holds, I believe has been beaten by the Tejas. But I will need to confirm. So don't hold me to that :)
I have some doubts on it. Mig-21s need just 2min when on ORP. Even if Tejas were to match that (I vaguely recall that the automatic built-in tests took about 1:30min, down from the initial 12min), Migs have 0.4M higher top speed enabling it to reach the 'scene' faster. Of course, the actual space itself would not be the same if the FCR and armament ranges are longer, something that will be in favour of the LCAs, if not today then tomorrow! :)
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral,

We are going around in circles.

No 18 Sq is short of its full complement of AC (MK1) is what I meant.

That is suboptimal for a squadron to function at full operational tempo.

I wish they had built a few more airframes for MK1A testing.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

I understand that point Sachin.

However while No 18 Squadron is an active squadron in the IAF, it is not an operational squadron in the same vein as No 1 Squadron (Mirage 2000) or No 20 Squadron (Su-30MKI).

It is not like Air HQ is going to task No 18 for ORP duties or even cross border air raids. So you are right (in principle) that No 18 is under strength, but that will not affect what No 18 (and No 45) are being presently tasked to do.

Now No 9 Sqn (Wolfpacks) is a squadron that is not functioning at full strength. That is sub-optimal.

I am not trying to split hairs and argue just for kicks, but understanding context is necessary.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

basant wrote:I have some doubts on it. Mig-21s need just 2min when on ORP. Even if Tejas were to match that (I vaguely recall that the automatic built-in tests took about 1:30min, down from the initial 12min), Migs have 0.4M higher top speed enabling it to reach the 'scene' faster. Of course, the actual space itself would not be the same if the FCR and armament ranges are longer, something that will be in favour of the LCAs, if not today then tomorrow! :)
Indeed basant. You are spot on about the MiG-21. That thing is not an aircraft, but a turbofan with a pilot in front. The airframe is just there to keep the turbofan running :) That thing is a rocket, not a plane.

Incidentally (I have been told) the Rambha takes the longest (among all the fighters in the fleet) to get to the air.

With a longer range and more powerful AESA radar + more potent A2A weapons, it remains to be seen how much of that speed advantage that Bison enjoys over the Mk1A will be a positive in the years to come.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by fanne »

Are you sure no 9 is under strength?
I am using logic and I have no inside info. The three mirage sq are our go to sq in any combat. They are the best. One of them is under strength because historically we never bought enough for 3rd sq (and crashes did not help). Now French donates us (minus millions per aircraft for transportation) many used aircraft for spares, in which 8-12 are in flyable condition. Of course IAF categorically states many times that they will be used strictly for spares (was that the condition for donation? Then why did the French took extra pain to point that many were flyable? To tempt IAF to pony up 50 million per plane for upgrades?).

There are many unanswered questions. But an air force short on planes, should it convert the 9 sq into a full and then top off other sq? Will it? And does IAF is required by law or convention to only state the truth?
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

No 9 Squadron was composed of aircraft that were ordered in 2004. That was the last order. I believe around 10 (?) airframes were acquired, so definitely under strength.

All publicly released info to date (on IAF acquiring used Mirage 2000s) indicates that those airframes are to be used as Christmas trees. They are stripping those airframes of parts to keep the fleet flying. I have not seen any reports of these airframes being made fly worthy by the IAF, regardless of what the French are claiming.

A spanking new Tejas Mk1A has more utility and value than an upgraded Mirage 2000I. Another two to more four Mk1A units is not going to kill the IAF. But will Air HQ bite and take the plunge? That is the question to ask. The Air Chief and his subordinates at Air HQ are focused only on 114 MRFA. The sad reality that the country is facing. As the saying goes, a bird in hand is better than two in the bush.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... ucSfg1w1AA ---> Report: A team of high-ranking Malaysian officials and experts is expected to visit India soon to take forward the Tejas Mk-1A procurement process for RMAF.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Tejas aircraft emerges as top choice for Malaysia's fighter jet programme
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 632250.cms
03 July 2022
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by basant »

Rakesh wrote:With a longer range and more powerful AESA radar + more potent A2A weapons, it remains to be seen how much of that speed advantage that Bison enjoys over the Mk1A will be a positive in the years to come.
IMHO the difference may not be much. In the sectors that they would be deployed, both will get information at the same time from the n/w assets. Just doing some crude calculations, the difference of 0.4M is not going to matter as the FCR's range differs by at least 50km in favour of Tejas. That is just about the additional distance Bison will be able to cover with its additional speed over a 5min flight. So it could be argued that Tejas can do good enough job in some sectors for point defence, such as along the LoC. A good replacement for the Bison. With increasing distances the scenario will change, and Sukhois at Mach 2 will be able to catch up and do a better job with their longer range, higher payload and endurance. And not to forget the Mirages that can clock M2.2 but they are unlikely to be deployed for this role.

It is worth noting that during post-Balakot, at 9:54 clearance for scramble came in while the engagement with the F-16 happened at 10:03. Assuming that it took 2-3min for the Mig-21 to take off, the flight took about 6-7 minutes to engage.
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