Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Avid
BRFite
Posts: 471
Joined: 21 Sep 2001 11:31
Location: Earth

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Avid »

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/in- ... e-general/
Robust Ukrainian and Russian air defenses have rendered both sides’ aircraft, particularly those used for close air support missions, largely “worthless” in the war between the two countries, according to a top American Air Force general.

About 60 Ukrainian aircraft and 70 Russian aircraft have been downed in the year since Russia launched its invasion, according to commander of US Air Forces in Europe and Africa Gen. James Hecker, a feat accomplished by the two countries’ highly capable air defense systems that have left much of the battlefield airspace off limits.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Thakur_B »

The lack of Russian SEAD/DEAD capabilities has hurt them a lot and prolonged this war longer than necessary. Even if Russia was holding the initial stocks for possible NATO invasion, increased rate of production should have caught up by now. We haven't seen much action from massive fleet of Russian Su30 and Su34, let alone their bombers. It would seem that Russian side doesn't have the capacity to neutralize S300 and lesser systems.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Aditya_V »

Thakur_B, it is easy to make simple statements, I think Ukraine relying on S-300 is like Pro Ukranian group( amatuers) simply taking a scuba dive under the Baltic sea and putting IED there.

We know that Nato AEW< AWACS are heavily patrolling the area, I don't think they can communicate with S-300's, they are probably doing it with IRST , NASAMS , even some unofficial patriot systems are all on the Ground. And I can bet some of this stuff was there well before 24 Feb 22.

This is a NATO Air Defense system which Russia is against will all NATO early warning attack, lots of Reinforcement flowing from Poland, with lots of critical Food, Diesel, spare parts, Construction, equipment all flowing from NATO.

This is a NATO VS Russia attrition war. A few S-300 would have been Western Ukraine, but by and Large the S-300 is just a cover story, critical Ukrainian Assets are being guarded by Western SAM systems with early warning all NATO Recon capabilities. It is not easy to take out or be laughed at.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Thakur_B »

Aditya ji, NATO ISR assets I can agree with but we haven't seen evidence of Patriot type systems on ground in Ukraine. At best Ukraine has received a handful of NASAMS batteries, that too quite recently.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Pratyush »

The Russians for some reason have not conducted a sustained SEAD campaign in Ukraine. Possibly because they have not focused manned strike missions beyond the Donbass.

Strikes beyond the Donbass are mostly using cruise missiles and stand off munitions of different descriptions.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Cyrano »

Lets step back and see what kinds of missions Russia would need undertake at this stage of the war, if they had air supremacy ie no threat of enemy AD.

Now ask yourself, if what % of those missions can be accomplished using long range arty assisted by drone targeting, and using various types of missiles it has plenty of.

My guess is the overlap between the two is very significant. If so, why would Russia risk expensive aircraft, pilots lives or getting them captured by the enemy ? Just to look cool on internet fora filled mostly with arm chair generals ? :)

Look at the maps of the various targets (mostly electricity grid infra) spread all over Ukraine Russia hit yesterday with a barrage of missiles including reportedly Kinjhal hypersonic missiles that Ukraine has no way of stopping. That is Russia's current need as determined by its battle plans. If Russia were to attempt the same with an air campaign, how many a/c would be needed, how long would that take, what would be the cost and what are the risks?

That said, RuAF has been sporadically hitting targets on the frontline, in carefully calibrated CAS missions. Like they have done in Bakhmut in the past few days.
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Deans »

Thakur_B wrote:The lack of Russian SEAD/DEAD capabilities has hurt them a lot and prolonged this war longer than necessary. Even if Russia was holding the initial stocks for possible NATO invasion, increased rate of production should have caught up by now. We haven't seen much action from massive fleet of Russian Su30 and Su34, let alone their bombers. It would seem that Russian side doesn't have the capacity to neutralize S300 and lesser systems.
It isn't really a `massive fleet'. the modern aircraft the RuAF had, pre war are:

SU35 - 110
SU34 - 147
SU30 - 110

Assuming 20 of these have been lost (which means 20 more damaged), we have 327, of which (at 50% availability) the RUAF has barely 160
aircraft or 10 squadrons, with another 10 squadrons of SU 27 & Mig 31 & 29. That is the bare minimum they need to defend the biggest airspace in the world against NATO.
Air superiority fighters like the Mig31 do not really matter, as the Ukrainian AF isn't really operating.

Apart from NATO controlled AWACS with BUK and S-300 SAMs, low level attacks are suicide, as Ukraine has more MANPADS than frontline NATO forces.
YashG
BRFite
Posts: 939
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by YashG »

^^^
It is also SU25 which will be able to take out objects of interest. But SU25 are not being abl eto operate with impunity that is the issue. Russia has good numbers of SU25.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18273
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Rakesh »

In race to arm Ukraine, U.S. faces cracks in its manufacturing might
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... g-ukraine/
08 March 2023
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18273
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Rakesh »

Bakhmut: A Modern Day Stalingrad That Decides The Ukraine War?
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/03/bak ... raine-war/
08 March 2023
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18273
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Rakesh »

Largest Volley Of Russian Hypersonic Kinzhal Missiles Ever Descended On Ukraine
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/l ... on-ukraine
09 March 2023
drnayar
BRFite
Posts: 925
Joined: 29 Jan 2023 18:38

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by drnayar »

Rakesh wrote:Largest Volley Of Russian Hypersonic Kinzhal Missiles Ever Descended On Ukraine
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/l ... on-ukraine
09 March 2023
Ritter explains below..

Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Deans »

YashG wrote:^^^
It is also SU25 which will be able to take out objects of interest. But SU25 are not being abl eto operate with impunity that is the issue. Russia has good numbers of SU25.
Yes, Russia's largest no of aircraft are the SU-25 and SU-24 (longer range, ground attack like the US F-111). However, these are Soviet era with low
availability and designed for low level attacks, which make them vulnerable to MANPADS. These 2 types have taken the most losses so far.
RUAF is now using the SU-25 in conjunction with the more capable radar of the SU-34 or MiG 31.
bala
BRFite
Posts: 1994
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by bala »

Wagner group, Russian forces, V. Nuland targeting Crimea, CIA propagandu, etc.. by Scott Ritter..

Maria
BRFite
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Aug 2020 13:50

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Maria »

IndraD wrote:missile barrage on Ukraine: 80 were fired 100 were intercepted

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... sa-kharkiv
:shock:
drnayar
BRFite
Posts: 925
Joined: 29 Jan 2023 18:38

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by drnayar »

Maria wrote:
IndraD wrote:missile barrage on Ukraine: 80 were fired 100 were intercepted

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... sa-kharkiv
:shock:
Madrassa math by europakis. :rotfl:
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8785
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by vijayk »

drnayar wrote:
Maria wrote:
:shock:
Madrassa math by europakis. :rotfl:
Remove 1 digit from that 100 (any digit) ... :rotfl:
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8785
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by vijayk »

Ninjamonkey @Aryan_warlord
UNCONFIRMED - A report by "TheIntelDrop" says that a #Russian Kinzhal #missile with a deep penetration warhead struck a #NATO bunker extending 80 metres deep ,this bunker near Lviv was a NATO strategic command point used to control anti-aircraft systems. #RF assumes there were up to 300 personnel in the bunker, 40 of which were high ranking foreign specialists.
Is this possible?
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by gakakkad »

^ it's technically possible. One of the reasons why pakees denied balakot airstrikes is because admitting them would be admitting existence of terrorists in it's soil. NATO officially wants to refuse it's presence in Ukraine . So they ll cover up casualties is plausible . However if 40 high ranking officials were killed that would have leaked by now . I'll take the above with grain of salt . It is totally possible that large number of Ukrainian officers were killed in the bunker though.
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9319
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by IndraD »

however search for kinzal Ukraine and you come across at least 25 articles, same content tone, whine about Kinzal while it is effective Ru has now only 6 left what is the method in madness etc, this clearly shows kinzal took some important target out

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... erability/: west vulnerable

https://www.ft.com/content/e85762ec-ccc ... 4a451dad30: kinzal the new menace

https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russ ... ca5fdee66a: Russia the Kinzal loser
Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1850
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Kati »

Ukraine making same mistakes as Confederacy in US Civil War | Opinion
https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-making-s ... uArp6iS58y
Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 1987
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Atmavik »

https://youtu.be/hwuRpYw7vyw

Russian Armour disaster in vhuledar, Ukraine is dropping mines using specialized artillery shells
Roop
BRFite
Posts: 670
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Roop »

gakakkad wrote:One of the reasons why pakees denied balakot airstrikes is because admitting them would be admitting existence of terrorists in it's soil. NATO officially wants to refuse it's presence in Ukraine . So they ll cover up casualties is plausible .
Exactly! This is the whole thing in a nutshell. This desire to cover up NATO troop presence inside Ukr is at the heart of all Western govt./media lies on the subject.
However if 40 high ranking officials were killed that would have leaked by now . I'll take the above with grain of salt . It is totally possible that large number of Ukrainian officers were killed in the bunker though.
The story, as reported above, is plausible but not reliably sourced. It is probably exaggerated in its details (300 killed, etc.) but basically sound and factual in the general narrative.
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9319
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by IndraD »

https://www.eucom.mil/pressrelease/4231 ... nal-waters

MQ9 drone of US shot down or struck physically by Su25, goes down
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9319
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by IndraD »

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/sta ... 40376?s=20
"Several times before the collision, the [Russian] Su-27s dumped fuel on and flew in front of the MQ9 in a reckless, environmentally unsound and unprofessional manner. This incident demonstrates a lack of competence in addition to being unsafe and unprofessional," Air Force says
they r unmanned aren't they? Why worry? Recently several SM posts of B52 flying very close to Russia
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by NRao »

Two other MQs were "shot down" over Syria (when I do not know)(I assume by Russia).

US policy is not to retaliate if an unmanned asset is attacked.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Aditya_V »

IndraD wrote:https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/sta ... 40376?s=20
"Several times before the collision, the [Russian] Su-27s dumped fuel on and flew in front of the MQ9 in a reckless, environmentally unsound and unprofessional manner. This incident demonstrates a lack of competence in addition to being unsafe and unprofessional," Air Force says
they r unmanned aren't they? Why worry? Recently several SM posts of B52 flying very close to Russia
I somehow think US weapons, Satellites and Surveillance like was involved in attacking Crimea Airbases, sinking of the Moskowa and attacking the Crimean Bridge.

I think the Russians are learning, with the situation in Bakhmut, US was preparing Surveillance platform, Russian S-300/ S-400 AD systems will have some down time which the US can take advantage off, so Russians decided that they will try and take out US UAV's preventively. To do the same kind of Surveillance with Manned platforms it will cost the US/NATO 100x the amount.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Cyrano »

IndraD wrote:https://www.eucom.mil/pressrelease/4231 ... nal-waters

one of the Russian Su-27 aircraft struck the propeller of the MQ-9, causing U.S. forces to have to bring the MQ-9 down in international waters
There is no clear wording to confirm that the US recovered the crashed Reaper from international waters. So how did they determine that RuAF pilots dumped fuel on it or Su27 collided with it to damage a propeller ? They were live streaming video back to base? If US could still control the thing enough to bring it down in the Black Sea, it can be argued it was their choice, not Russia's fault. Storm in a sea cup...
YashG
BRFite
Posts: 939
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by YashG »

fuel dumping and interception is something drone videos can corroborate and this feed was probably being sent back via sat links.

More than that I agree US/Nato Intel has helped Ukraine plot a lot of retaliations. Not just strategic one but likely even tactical strikes, such as Himars strikes on Russian targets. Nato is using the opportunity to test its ISR asset capability. This is one reason Russia has found it difficult to defend its key targets or attack kiev's assets. Likely when russian assets get into air, Ukraine is sounded off to hide their key assets that are likely to be taken out.

If there is no surprise there is no way u can take out aerial targets easily or at all. When russia reports it hot 16 assets - thats them saying based on their knowledge they hit a position where a asset was there before the strike mission.

Fine print is it may or manynt be destoroyed.
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by gakakkad »

^ there is a telegram video of the incident shot from the sukhoi . Seems like they were trying to use jet drafting and fuel dumping to down the drone intact . Which is why they did not shoot it with a cannon or AAM.

I don't think the russkies are having any issue taking out Ukrainian assets at all . They are able to take out radars , weapons warehouses etc at will. The ISR support from the west is mainly a nuisance value and at most prolonged the conflict by 6 months . It's pretty obvious that issues faced by Russians are in street to street fighting and trench warfare . I don't think there is a technology solution to that. The magnitude of this war cannot be fathomed by the mango people. 6k-8k Ukrainian tanks destroyed . That's more than what existed in entire NATO combined . To put things in perspective the entire German tank force is a few hundreds .
Avid
BRFite
Posts: 471
Joined: 21 Sep 2001 11:31
Location: Earth

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Avid »

Couple of major points that seem to be missing re discussion about the reaper incident:
  • Why was the transponder off? (Russians have said so; and the US has not denied that the transponder was off)
  • Was it armed? Reaper can carry hellfire, and possibly was. Russians have been silent about this (to avoid escalation?) and the Americans -- well, interestingly have not denied it either.
https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1635 ... RlR8A&s=09
Pentagon press conference on the drone incident today
Journalist: "Was this aircraft armed?"
Pentagon spokesman: "I'm not going to get into the specific profile of this particular aircraft"
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18273
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1635 ... RlR8A&s=09
Pentagon press conference on the drone incident today
Journalist: "Was this aircraft armed?"
Pentagon spokesman: "I'm not going to get into the specific profile of this particular aircraft"
[/quote]
Pentagon Spokesman: But I can confirm that Russia haphazardly attacked our drone :mrgreen:
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by RoyG »

Avid wrote:Couple of major points that seem to be missing re discussion about the reaper incident:
  • Why was the transponder off? (Russians have said so; and the US has not denied that the transponder was off)
  • Was it armed? Reaper can carry hellfire, and possibly was. Russians have been silent about this (to avoid escalation?) and the Americans -- well, interestingly have not denied it either.
https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1635 ... RlR8A&s=09
Pentagon press conference on the drone incident today
Journalist: "Was this aircraft armed?"
Pentagon spokesman: "I'm not going to get into the specific profile of this particular aircraft"
She did the right thing by not commenting on specifics.
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9319
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by IndraD »

The US erased sensitive software on the drone remotely before it crashed to prevent Russia from collecting secret information. - CNN.

Last edited by IndraD on 16 Mar 2023 01:26, edited 1 time in total.
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9319
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by IndraD »



hahakaar in Germany on lack of military equipments
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by NRao »

IndraD wrote:The US erased sensitive software on the drone remotely before it crashed to prevent Russia from collecting secret information. - CNN.
The very first box, without any exceptions, that is checked in ANY Unmanned Vehicles that the US DoD deploys is the ability to destroy ANY critical technologies. In some cases, they look for demonstrable hara-kiri capability - the complete destruction of the UM article. In AI-based systems, the AI NEEDS to have that capability - determine the ability to return to base, threat perception, etc - and when all fails commit suicide.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Pratyush »



Claimed vidio of the supposed incident.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by NRao »

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Aditya_V »

Pratyush wrote:
Claimed vidio of the supposed incident.
This looks like a video game
Avid
BRFite
Posts: 471
Joined: 21 Sep 2001 11:31
Location: Earth

Re: Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

Post by Avid »

Mearsheimer on how this will unfold from here on out.
Post Reply