Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Sep 2022 23:00

Live. Started 20 mins ago.

Scott Ritter claims that the UKR force in Kharkiv(sp?) was a 'foreign legion' consisting of people from across the globe, trained by US SOCOM over the years, etc, etc, etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_FY87Se1d8

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 16 Sep 2022 23:17

He may be right. Several videos on telegram channels posted by such people themselves, speaking in English and with western rifles and gear.

I think that's where the leak came from - loose chatter by hired hands that Ru Intel picked up. Mostly evacuated and these forces occupied those positions but couldn't cause casualties.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Sep 2022 09:12

NRao wrote:Live. Started 20 mins ago.

Scott Ritter claims that the UKR force in Kharkiv(sp?) was a 'foreign legion' consisting of people from across the globe, trained by US SOCOM over the years, etc, etc, etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_FY87Se1d8

From what I gathered from Ritter and other sources:
- Planning and intel was completely NATO. Possibly the senior leadership too.
- Of the 3 brigades used (with 1 in reserve) 1 was regular army which was sent to UK for training. They are rated as good as a regular NATO unit.
- 1 is a Polish equipped tank brigade with a T-72 variant made in Poland with a lot of personnel from Poland.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 18 Sep 2022 10:34

Russia’s Use of Iranian Kamikaze Drones Creates New Dangers for Ukrainian Troops

Shahed-136 drones supplied to Russia carried out several devastating strikes in Ukraine’s Kharkiv region over past week, Ukrainian commanders say

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias-us ... 1663415140

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Sep 2022 15:38

Oh dear!!
Marshal Zhukov would be turning in his grave!!

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 19 Sep 2022 01:13

The Russian Victory Missed By Everyone

https://youtu.be/SooynsCBOr0

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 19 Sep 2022 04:44

Kati wrote:Russia’s Use of Iranian Kamikaze Drones Creates New Dangers for Ukrainian Troops

Shahed-136 drones supplied to Russia carried out several devastating strikes in Ukraine’s Kharkiv region over past week, Ukrainian commanders say

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias-us ... 1663415140

Russians have messed up their drone strategy. Hence having to rely on iranian drones.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Sep 2022 07:50

vinod wrote:
Kati wrote:Russia’s Use of Iranian Kamikaze Drones Creates New Dangers for Ukrainian Troops

Shahed-136 drones supplied to Russia carried out several devastating strikes in Ukraine’s Kharkiv region over past week, Ukrainian commanders say

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias-us ... 1663415140
Russians have messed up their drone strategy. Hence having to rely on iranian drones.

The New Atlas very recently addressed this issue. He said, ask the Saudis. A rag tag chappal based bunch of yahoos have given the mighty Saudis a head ache. The Saudis are using the "best electronics that money can buy" from the US.

The common factor, between Saudis and UKR, is "Iranian drones"

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Sep 2022 11:53

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 19 Sep 2022 13:55

Eh? What does that mean?!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Sep 2022 14:08

I will delete that post

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 19 Sep 2022 14:30

Kharkiv | The centre of counter-offensive

Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second largest city, lies just 30 km south of the Russian border. This predominantly Russian speaking former capital of Soviet Ukraine was one of the early targets of the Russian invasion that started on February 24. Russian troops made quick advances towards the gates of the city in the early days of the war but were stopped by Ukrainian resistance. Having failed to take the city, the Russians then tried to encircle it and continued to shell the defensive lines. But by May, when their main battlefront focus shifted towards Donetsk and Luhansk in the east, Russian troops withdrew from the outskirts of Kharkiv city, but continued to hold much of Kharkiv Oblast, including small but strategically important cities such as Izium and Kupiansk that served as logistical hubs for Russia’s operations in the east. Not any more.

Last week, Russian troops were pushed back from much of the Oblast by a lightning Ukrainian counter-offensive. Izium and Kupiansk are now back in the hands of Ukraine. Russia has confirmed the retreat, saying its troops were pulled back for “regrouping”. But Ukraine’s quick advances have clearly exposed the weak links in Russia’s defence of the territories it captured during the seven-month-long conflict.

The Red Army, which had to withdraw from Kharkiv to the Izium area came under further attack and suffered another setback, like the Russians did in Izium last week. Two Soviet counter-offensives (first n May 1942 and then in February 1943) were unsuccessful. Finally, in a pre-winter offensive of August 1943, the Red Army broke through the defence lines of the 4th Panzer Army and Army Detachment Kempf in Kharkiv, liberating the city and forcing the Nazis to retreat behind the Dnieper River. The Battle of Kiev would follow quickly.

After the war broke out, Russia has made it clear that it wanted to take the city. Even after their troops failed to take Kharkiv, Russian Generals have said they wanted to “liberate” the whole of Ukraine’s east and south, stretching from Kharkiv in the northeast to Odesa in the south. But Russia’s accomplishments in the seven months war were limited and earlier this month, they suffered their first major battlefield setback in the Kharkiv Oblast. As of now Ukraine has outsmarted the Russians in Kharkiv. They not only resisted the Russian attempts to take the city, but also pushed them out of the Oblast. Immediately after their counteroffensive gains, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky visited Izium, which was the forward base of the Soviet Red Army during its attempts to retake Kharkiv from the Nazis, signalling that Ukraine’s hold over the city was tight.

But the question is whether the Russian withdrawal was a tactical retreat, like in 1941, for regrouping and counterattack or whether Ukraine would be able to consolidate its gains in the recaptured territories and keep the Russians at bay. As long as the war continues, everything is a possibility.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 19 Sep 2022 15:02

Kharkiv has a population of 2 million, not completely pro-Russian. Infested by right wing militias that have a strong terrorising grip on the people with full support from SBU and Kiev.

Russia can't take it unless they are ready for immense bloodshed on both sides. Even if Kiev regime is toppled first, the rw militias make it a poison pill.

Russian forces have played mostly hide and seek there without actually ever mounting a serious attack, presumably to tie down some of AFU forces and militias there.

When AFU/NATO counter attacked in Donbass they had to stop playing fruitless games there and withdraw to concentrate forces in Donbass.

One can call it a failure or a wise tactical move depending on which side you are on.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 19 Sep 2022 15:14

Cyrano wrote:Kharkiv has a population of 2 million, not completely pro-Russian. Infested by right wing militias that have a strong terrorising grip on the people with full support from SBU and Kiev.

Russia can't take it unless they are ready for immense bloodshed on both sides. Even if Kiev regime is toppled first, the rw militias make it a poison pill.

Russian forces have played mostly hide and seek there without actually ever mounting a serious attack, presumably to tie down some of AFU forces and militias there.

When AFU/NATO counter attacked in Donbass they had to stop playing fruitless games there and withdraw to concentrate forces in Donbass.

One can call it a failure or a wise tactical move depending on which side you are on.

Being on the Indian side, I would like to call it a wise tactical failure. Btw, was the 1st Gaurds Army really obliterated as the western MSM claims?

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 19 Sep 2022 17:30

Don't think so. Russian side fights with a lot of equipment, especially IFVs, Tanks, Arty etc. If the Ukrainians had really obliterated a retreating army, they would have been showing huge no.s of captured eqpt, PoWs and bodies. The crowing from rooftops would have been 100x.
From what I gather, in this Kharkiv - Izyum sector the Russians carefully withdrew, with nearly no casualties but had to abandon some heavy equipment. The AFO/NATO forces advanced fast and far with little resistance until they got over stretched. By that time the retreating Russian forces reached the defense lines in the rear and the troops already there started shelling the advancing Ukrainien troops causing significant losses of Ukr men and equipment.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 19 Sep 2022 19:32

Maria wrote: Being on the Indian side, I would like to call it a wise tactical failure. Btw, was the 1st Gaurds Army really obliterated as the western MSM claims?

The 1st Guards tank army was withdrawn from that sector about a month earlier for rest and refit. They should have been replaced by a 2nd line
formation, but were not and Ukraine seized the opportunity. There were no regular army formations in the Izyum area when Ukraine attacked.

The 1st Guards tank army comprises 2 Tank and 1 infantry division, with 2 artillery and 1 engineer brigades.
At any time, 2 of the 3 brigades of each division, were in the Ukraine - until the whole army was withdrawn around Aug.
This army was supposed to be the first to be equipped with the T-14 tank and since that has not happened, they used older T-80s and lost over 100
in Feb-Mar. One of the tank divisions is now reportedly back in the Izyum region (East of the Oskil river).

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 19 Sep 2022 21:41

whatever be the case... Putin seems to be in no hurry while NATO seem to be to claim a moral victory over Russia. West rags flooded with stories of Zelensky on a flying horse towards Moscow etc (target audience is people without gas who need motivation to keep supporting this war)
One guesses Russia is waiting for the winter. When Europe would be on a wing and a prayer https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-09-19/ Europe races to prepare for energy crunch this winter

also on a side note we keep reading of British mercs/SAS dying in Ukr, they are not reported in West

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 19 Sep 2022 23:20

What is a Kamikaze drone? By that standard a missile guided by a fighter is a Kamikaze missile? This is a non-sensical term IMO. Drones can be exploded over anything. That is the whole purpose!! Maybe a HumanGuidedMissle-HGM is more appropriate.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 19 Sep 2022 23:27

V_Raman wrote:What is a Kamikaze drone? By that standard a missile guided by a fighter is a Kamikaze missile? This is a non-sensical term IMO. Drones can be exploded over anything. That is the whole purpose!! Maybe a HumanGuidedMissle-HGM is more appropriate.

Loitering ammunition , highly manoeuvrable , plenty of station time with real time visual feed back giving operator the flexibility to choose targets which are hitherto difficult engage and prosecute with guided missiles .

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 20 Sep 2022 03:34

Russia is trying to hold on until winter passes. Meanwhile, NATO and allies are trying to settle as much as possible before that. If they can get Kherson, then Crimea, the real big prize, is very much in reach. All of crimea will be in reach by NATO rockets.
Russian navy and air force are very much not in picture, probably holding back until crimea is threatened.

Anyway, russian army has miscalculated a lot of things and in no way can take on NATO. The only thing is nuclear trump card which is pretty useless against Ukraine. It cant be used, even India wont go near russia, if nuclear is used against Ukraine.

Only Iran seems to be the full effective participant in this war for Russia. China, like India, is watching and waiting.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Sep 2022 03:56

What Navy can Russia bring to bear in this sector?
The Russian AF is not built for operations in support of ground troops. CAS has never been part of their philosophy.
Plus the air space is heavily contested. Because the ground troops have not been available to capture and hold territory the UKR have been able to make it difficult for RUAF through SAMs

It is all connected and the armed forces must me waiting for winter as this conflict is far from being decided on the battlefield

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Sep 2022 05:25

vinod wrote: .........

Anyway, russian army has miscalculated a lot of things and in no way can take on NATO. The only thing is nuclear trump card which is pretty useless against Ukraine. It cant be used, even India wont go near russia, if nuclear is used against Ukraine.

..........

* Russia did beat a NATO Army: Ukrainian Army

Today, for the first time, I heard that a number of Black Water (read the US) troops got hammered.

ks_sachin wrote: .........

The Russian AF is not built for operations in support of ground troops. CAS has never been part of their philosophy.

IMO that is very wise. Why would Russia need CAS when they have massive artillery units? Far cheaper option - especially for ANY nation that is fighting along her national borders. CAS is relatively cheaper when one has an expeditionary force and is fighting on the other side of the earth. Russians fighting in Syria, do they have good CAS? I do not know, but that is where CAS would make sense, not in Ukraine (when they can mass their arty).

Plus the air space is heavily contested. Because the ground troops have not been available to capture and hold territory the UKR have been able to make it difficult for RUAF through SAMs

It is all connected and the armed forces must me waiting for winter as this conflict is far from being decided on the battlefield

Perhaps, but, my sense is that Russia is saving up for NATO, which has entered the picture, but as something else.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Sep 2022 05:27

IMVVVVHO, India is claiming her position as a pole.

The discussions or analysis that India is on this or that side are very immature. Very, very immature.

India is on the side of India - BUT as a pole in the multipolar architecture. Pole first, then a nation.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Sep 2022 06:32

NRao ji,

CAS and Arty are used in different ways.

Arty is like the blunt instrument that is used for sanitising/destroying etc an objective before the second part of the operations starts, i.e. occupation/control. It become a very risky business to use arty in conjunction with offensive operations close to own troops without precision shells. The arty deployment also requires good intel on where the enemy concentrations are or their deployment. As we have seen in the Russian case, the massive use of Arty has definitely bent the UKR forces but has it broken them and helped obliterate their defensive positions - this judgement I leave to wiser and more learned members

CAS is a different ball game and if you have assets in the air / with PGMs, you are more able to bring pointed firepower to bear in the attainment of a tactical objective or extricate you from a difficult situation. In the kind of engagement, we say in the early days of the conflict I would have assumed dedicated CAS would have been more helpful in support of Russian troops who were being harried by the mobile UKR forces. However again I will say that this can come about only if there is a degree of sanitisation of the air space over the area of operations.

Again I am no expert but have come to my point of view through reading and inference.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 20 Sep 2022 11:09

ks_sachin wrote:What Navy can Russia bring to bear in this sector?

One possible use for the navy is to transport men and material across the Dnieper, in the Kherson sector, since the existing bridges have been hit
(as will pontoons). The Black sea fleet has the capability to land and support a brigade of Naval infantry and Russia has a lot of experience in river
operations.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 20 Sep 2022 15:51

I don't understand the purported Russian narrative that this being an SMO, constraints them from increasing troops or doing this or that. It didn't stop them from an offensive on Kiev by paradropping special forces in Feb, or surrounding the region in March or attacking foreign volunteers and arms depots near Lviv.

The real reason is elsewhere... My take is that Russia wants winter to do it's job and create high degree of tensions in Europe and drive a wedge between US and Europe. If that happens NATO will become ineffective.

If that starts happening, US and strongly US controlled countries like Poland, Baltic minnows, even Germany will directly enter the fray. And to deal with that, Russia will need all its troops and air power which are harder to replace than artillery and ammo.

Europe is caught with its ass between 2 chairs, it can't back track from the path it fully knows is highly dangerous and destructive. That's why the bravado and brinkmanship.

LPR people are scared of Ukranian rw militias and are demanding immediate referendum and integration into Russian federation. Russia's response to this will be interesting. If they include LPR into Russian federation then de facto and de jure they are at full war with Ukraine.

Russia has 3 military options IMO:
1. Go after Kiev and C&C structures in western Ukraine and neutralize Ukraine's ability to attract and employ NATO aid - money or weapons
2. Take as many positions as possible to secure the current front lines and hunker down for winter and let it play out
3. Declare all occupied territories as Russian and declare full scale war and hope Europe blinks ( it very well might since Europe has no capacity or courage to go to war) and US backs off, for now. Even US' capacity to go to war is doubtful given internal political situation and no popular support.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Sep 2022 18:06

For what it is worth:

https://twitter.com/PLnewstoday/status/ ... 5017697282

2 minutes ago:

#Breaking The heads of the Pro/Russian Donetsk & Lugansk People's Republics & the Russian place head of the Kherson region have just announced that the republics and Kherson will hold referendums from September 23rd to 27th to join Russia

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Sep 2022 18:55

Cyrano wrote:
Russia has 3 military options IMO:
1. Go after Kiev and C&C structures in western Ukraine and neutralize Ukraine's ability to attract and employ NATO aid - money or weapons
2. Take as many positions as possible to secure the current front lines and hunker down for winter and let it play out
3. Declare all occupied territories as Russian and declare full scale war and hope Europe blinks ( it very well might since Europe has no capacity or courage to go to war) and US backs off, for now. Even US' capacity to go to war is doubtful given internal political situation and no popular support.

1 - Do they have the capacity? This should have been done at the outset. If not why would you not do it at the outset?
2 - TAke as many positions - that is proving difficult for the Russians unfortunately. Take it one thing but then you have to keep it. Lets see how this plays out.
3 - If the Russians declare war - against whom will they declare it? The UKR forces already believe that they are in an existentialist war. Europe / US may decide that they are happy with the way things are. DOes a declaration of way force the EU/US to anything different to what they are doing today if there is no threat to other NATO members militarily?

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 20 Sep 2022 18:58

Cyrano wrote:Russia has 3 military options IMO:
1. Go after Kiev and C&C structures in western Ukraine and neutralize Ukraine's ability to attract and employ NATO aid - money or weapons
2. Take as many positions as possible to secure the current front lines and hunker down for winter and let it play out
3. Declare all occupied territories as Russian and declare full scale war and hope Europe blinks ( it very well might since Europe has no capacity or courage to go to war) and US backs off, for now. Even US' capacity to go to war is doubtful given internal political situation and no popular support.

4. Order a General Mobilization including Martial Law in Russia

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Sep 2022 19:05

https://twitter.com/TFL1728/status/1572203925826060297

Did y'all not see this coming? Of course this is how Russia would expand the SMO without actually having to change anything. Ukraine is being carved up piece by piece.
Series Of Occupied Ukraine Regions Set Referendums As Russia Prepares 'National Mobilization'

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 20 Sep 2022 19:30

ks_sachin wrote:[
1 - Do they have the capacity? This should have been done at the outset. If not why would you not do it at the outset?
2 - TAke as many positions - that is proving difficult for the Russians unfortunately. Take it one thing but then you have to keep it. Lets see how this plays out.
3 - If the Russians declare war - against whom will they declare it? The UKR forces already believe that they are in an existentialist war. Europe / US may decide that they are happy with the way things are. DOes a declaration of way force the EU/US to anything different to what they are doing today if there is no threat to other NATO members militarily?

Russia should have done this at the outset - or at the least made basic preparations to ensure that the units involved in phase 1 were operationally
ready (they were not). Perhaps it has taken the Russians 6 months to ensure that newly mobilised units will have weaponry that works. During that time the following has happened:
- Russian territory is being constantly attacked and Russian origin civilians in Donabass are being killed daily, coupled with terrorist acts. Public sentiment would overwhelmingly support a war to prevent Russians being killed and other terrorist acts.
- Majority also believe they are in a war with NATO, which they can lose and NATOs terms for peace will be too humiliating for them to consider.
- NATO can't supply more. The constraint is ammo, not weapons. Ukraine is running out of their own (Soviet era) weapons and ammo so its
completely dependent on NATO.

Russia has also sent the message that it knows it can't win with the current force, so it will deploy more forces - which Ukraine can't as they are fully deployed. They are also not going to lose the Crimea or Donbass because if that looks like happening, tactical nukes will not be ruled out.

In this context, NATO might now realize that Russia is just getting started. It will no longer be question of surviving 1 winter without cheap gas, but prolonged recession. If this is going to be a war that either NATO cannot win, or the price to win will be too high, they might be more inclined for a peace deal closer to Russia's terms.

I don't think Russia will order a mobilisation, or declare war, but declare the SMO an Anti terrorist operation. They have also passed some enabling laws which will help with further mobilisation.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 20 Sep 2022 20:41

Serious Question.

I know most of you are pro-Russia and that's fine by me. In the US, we are obviously pro-Ukraine, and honestly, I have no clue of the ancient histories of the conflict to care for either side. But I hear many of you banting about tactical nukes. Obviously, Russia has a huge arsenal and I suppose they could use tactical nukes. But what makes you so confident that America couldn't surreptitiously give Ukraine some tactical nukes if it came to that situation and nuke a part of Russia? Obviously, the delivery systems would make a huge difference and Ukraine would cease to exist but with the fall out etc, huge chunks of Europe and maybe even Asia and North America would be contaminated. I get all the overground testing of the 50's and 60's but do you honestly think that if nukes started entering this picture, other world powers would sit there and twiddle their thumbs? I'm guessing at that point WW3 starts and civilization as we know it ends.

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 20 Sep 2022 20:57

What's this chat about tactical nukes. Everyone from russian side has said that they wont use nukes until the time they are used first or the Russian state is in danger. why wont you guys use primary sources instead of just repeating media or CIA talking points.

it is just a ploy by warmonger inc to convey the image that Russia is defeated. In all eventuality, the Russians are slowly gonna incorporate all of the newly acquired regions during winter, take out all subversives and become stronger for the more fighting next spring.

let's see how many more years can the euro take the pain.

Also another update is that the 'blitz' by Ukr is out of steam and it's been a turkey shoot. the best trained units in the kharkov offensive have been decimated.

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 20 Sep 2022 20:58

Anant wrote:Serious Question.

I know most of you are pro-Russia and that's fine by me. In the US, we are obviously pro-Ukraine, and honestly, I have no clue of the ancient histories of the conflict to care for either side. But I hear many of you banting about tactical nukes. Obviously, Russia has a huge arsenal and I suppose they could use tactical nukes. But what makes you so confident that America couldn't surreptitiously give Ukraine some tactical nukes if it came to that situation and nuke a part of Russia? Obviously, the delivery systems would make a huge difference and Ukraine would cease to exist but with the fall out etc, huge chunks of Europe and maybe even Asia and North America would be contaminated. I get all the overground testing of the 50's and 60's but do you honestly think that if nukes started entering this picture, other world powers would sit there and twiddle their thumbs? I'm guessing at that point WW3 starts and civilization as we know it ends.

Please note that in the real world Nuclear weapons are NEVER tactical they are by definition STRATEGIC.

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 20 Sep 2022 21:01

Anant wrote:Serious Question.

I know most of you are pro-Russia and that's fine by me. In the US, we are obviously pro-Ukraine, and honestly, I have no clue of the ancient histories of the conflict to care for either side. But I hear many of you banting about tactical nukes. Obviously, Russia has a huge arsenal and I suppose they could use tactical nukes. But what makes you so confident that America couldn't surreptitiously give Ukraine some tactical nukes if it came to that situation and nuke a part of Russia? Obviously, the delivery systems would make a huge difference and Ukraine would cease to exist but with the fall out etc, huge chunks of Europe and maybe even Asia and North America would be contaminated. I get all the overground testing of the 50's and 60's but do you honestly think that if nukes started entering this picture, other world powers would sit there and twiddle their thumbs? I'm guessing at that point WW3 starts and civilization as we know it ends.

To add a little but more detail is that the current crop of DC warmongers are well versed in identity politics and do not have an inkling about the nukes that will wipe out the US. It is all fun and games where slavs are killing slavs.

This has been a conflict escalated by the US/NATO groups and I fear for my family's safety because of this.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Sep 2022 21:18

Anant wrote:Serious Question.

I know most of you are pro-Russia and that's fine by me. In the US, we are obviously pro-Ukraine, and honestly, I have no clue of the ancient histories of the conflict to care for either side. But I hear many of you banting about tactical nukes. Obviously, Russia has a huge arsenal and I suppose they could use tactical nukes. But what makes you so confident that America couldn't surreptitiously give Ukraine some tactical nukes if it came to that situation and nuke a part of Russia?

There's no such confidence. The discussion around Alaska that started cropping up a couple months back was most worrisome IMO.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 20 Sep 2022 21:34

Putin will address the nation shortly, followed (probably) by the defense minister.

Earlier today, the penalties for various offenses in the armed forces were increased (typically) from 1 year to 10.
They include - desertion (incl. leaving the unit without permission when drunk), disobeying orders, abandoning a position without orders,
surrender without permission, refusing to be mobilised when selected, sabotage of defense production or assets, etc. These are penalties when the unit is at war. Currently the Russian armed forces are not at war, so peacetime penalties apply.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 20 Sep 2022 21:36

Anant wrote: But what makes you so confident that America couldn't surreptitiously give Ukraine some tactical nukes if it came to that situation and nuke a part of Russia?

I have a much higher level of confidence that Ukraine will sell the nukes.
Russian media is reporting that a shipment of Stingers, supplied by the US, was sold by the Ukrainians to a Turkish group and was intercepted at a port in Germany, due to a lucky tip-off.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 20 Sep 2022 23:00

Any nuke exploded can be traced back to its origin using the unique combination of isotopes left behind after the explosion. It won’t be possible for Ukraine to explode a nuke and for Nato to avoid responsibility assuming its Nato that supplied it.

On the other hand it’s fairly trivial for Uke scientists to detonate a dirty bomb using the tons of fissile material they have lying around. But then they don’t need Nato for that.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Sep 2022 23:17

I think only nations that have nukes will use them, they will not let a proxy use them, certainly not let a proxy decide where amd when to use tactical nukes.

If Russia does use them only the US, UK, or France will retaliate.