Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 08:35

This thread is to discuss the Agnipath (Tour of Duty) Scheme announced by the GOI on 14 June 2022 at New Delhi, India.

Please use this thread to discuss the pros & cons of this new recruitment scheme.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 08:36

What is Agnipath scheme, who all can apply? All you need to know
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 225306.cms
15 June 2022

Agnipath scheme, a recruitment process for individuals below the rank of officer, with the goal of deploying fitter, younger troops on the front lines, many of whom will be on four-year contracts. It's a game-changing project that will give the Army, Navy, and Air Force a more young image.

https://twitter.com/AnveshkaD/status/15 ... wCdqz0b0gA --->

Tour of Duty | Agnipath military recruitment scheme announced. This long-awaited military reform enhances our competitiveness.

https://twitter.com/CSE_page/status/153 ... ONAc4FJvjw --->

https://twitter.com/DefenceDirect/statu ... naCZwvb4cQ --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 08:39

AGNIPATH – TOUR OF DUTY
https://ankurgeopolitics.wordpress.com/ ... r-of-duty/
14 June 2022

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 08:42

Agnipath will change composition of region, caste-based regiments
https://www.rediff.com/news/report/govt ... 220614.htm
June 14, 2022

India on Tuesday unveiled a "transformative" scheme called Agnipath for the recruitment of soldiers into the Army, the Navy and the Air Force largely on a short-term contractual basis with an aim to cut the ballooning salary and pension bills and enable a youthful profile for the armed forces. Under the scheme, around 46,000 soldiers will be recruited this year between the ages of 17 and a half years and 21 years into the three services, the defence ministry said.

The recruitment will be based on an "all India, all-class" basis that is set to change the composition of several regiments that recruit youths from specific regions as well as castes such as Rajputs, Jats and Sikhs. After completion of the four-year tenure of the recruits, the scheme provides for retaining 25 per cent of each specific batch for regular service, based on organisational requirements and policies promulgated by the armed forces from time to time.

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh provided details of the new initiative at a media briefing shortly after the Prime Minister-led Cabinet Committee on Security approved the scheme which the government said would allow "patriotic and motivated" youth to serve in the armed forces for a period of four years.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jun 2022 08:43

Sounds very interesting!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 08:47

Forewarned...this is by Rahul Bedi.

'Uncalled For': Military Insiders Warn Against 'Agnipath' Recruitment Scheme
https://thewire.in/security/military-in ... -criticism

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 08:50

Transformative New Recruitment Scheme For The Indian Military
https://bharatshakti.in/transformative- ... -military/
14 June 2022

Agnipath Military Recruitment Scheme Announced; 46,000 Agniveers To Be Recruited This Year
https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/tour ... -this-year
14 June 2022

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 08:52

Agnipath recruitment scheme: How good it is to have contract soldiers in tour of duty?
https://www.indiasentinels.com/opinion/ ... -duty-5275
14 June 2022

‘Tour of Duty’: A Bad Idea Whose Time Has Come
https://kaypius.com/2022/06/11/tour-of- ... -has-come/
11 June 2022

If the Indian Army and Ministry of Defence (MoD) has its way, a new channel of recruitment for the armed forces, named ‘Agnipath‘ (path of fire) may soon become reality. Encashing on India’s demographic bounty where more than 50% of the population is below the age of 25, this unique ‘Tour of Duty‘ will open the gates of armed forces to volunteers for a period of four years, including onboarding, training, leave and actual service.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Jun 2022 08:54

Overall fitness across majority of our Indian society has dipped over the past two decades due to various reasons. This scheme will lay down foundational fitness during thise critical years. The citizens who have served will also bring back discipline and better ethics in public circles. They will.also be available to tackle future threats coming from various directions. Not entirely sure the intangibles to the forces but great benefit for the society. Do we know if continuing education is rolled into this program ?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2022 08:59

Is this to solve the shortage of officers or ORs? If the former, the SSC already exists, and if the latter, don't we get enough candidates in recruitment rallies? I've never read about a shortage of jawans, it's always been about officers. Given this, what problem is this scheme solving?

Admittedly, my views are a bit coloured by the media's reference to this as a "tour of duty" scheme, which is widely used by the Americans in their expeditionary adventures (hence "touring" some far off place for a short duration), and who only ended up botching these "tours" (Iraq, Afg being the best examples). I hope we are not importing the worst of American practices here...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jun 2022 09:04

Guddu wrote:Re: Agnipath...I see POK/China prep everywhere. We are going to need more soldiers, when the SHTF. This is all prep. Look for action over the next year or two, when China makes it move on Taiwan.

how is India concerned with taiwan

Sure, Modi will tweet condolences.

Beyond that, we have no dog in that fight

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 09:09

arshyam wrote:Is this to solve the shortage of officers or ORs? If the former, the SSC already exists, and if the latter, don't we get enough candidates in recruitment rallies? I've never read about a shortage of jawans, it's always been about officers. Given this, what problem is this scheme solving?

Admittedly, my views are a bit coloured by the media's reference to this as a "tour of duty" scheme, which is widely used by the Americans in their expeditionary adventures (hence "touring" some far off place for a short duration), and who only ended up botching these "tours" (Iraq, Afg being the best examples). I hope we are not importing the worst of American practices here...

Pension bill....

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2022 09:09

Cyrano wrote:Sounds very interesting!

Everything sounds interesting Cyrano-ji on paper.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jun 2022 09:11

Maj Gen (Dr)GD Bakshi SM,VSM(retd)@GeneralBakshi · 10h

Was flabergasted by the Agniveer scheme.

I thought initially it was a trial being done on a pilot basis.

this is an across the board change to convert Indian armed forces to a short tenure quasi- conscript force Like the Chinese.

For Gods sake PLEASE DONT do it

https://twitter.com/GeneralBakshi/statu ... 6991479808

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 15 Jun 2022 09:28

I don't get it...
The prescribed age limit (17.5 - 21 years) puts it in college years...
Is this full time service for 4 years or a reserve force like Territorial Army with part time military service...?

If it's latter, I don't see any problem... And I'd go a step ahead and say that it should be made mandatory for all college students...
If it is the former, then why would anyone risk college education to join the army that has only 25% chance of getting regularized...? In case they won't get selected, they will be left without a degree and no back-up...

Govt. should make this scheme similar to NDA atleast, where they get a degree at the end of their course...

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 15 Jun 2022 09:41

LakshmanPST wrote:I don't get it...
The prescribed age limit (17.5 - 21 years) puts it in college years...
Is this full time service for 4 years or a reserve force like Territorial Army with part time military service...?

If it's latter, I don't see any problem... And I'd go a step ahead and say that it should be made mandatory for all college students...
If it is the former, then why would anyone risk college education to join the army that has only 25% chance of getting regularized...? In case they won't get selected, they will be left without a degree and no back-up...

Govt. should make this scheme similar to NDA atleast, where they get a degree at the end of their course...

When these recruits join, they will be 10th pass. Most will come from rural backgrounds and vernacular medium education and may be unlikely to qualify for college. For them, the alternative to Agnipath is unemployment. After Agnipath, they will have 11 lac, a CV that makes them a lot more job ready and possibly a better chance at college admission.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 15 Jun 2022 09:50

Brilliant scheme. Will infuse martial spirit again into Hindu society. This pool of decommissioned soldiers can be called upon in national emergencies, war and when momins try to capture the country by triggering civil war (about 30 years from now). To give them employment opportunities, it should be mandatory for para-military forces to hire 50% of their total intake of soldiers only from this pool of decommissioned soldiers. Give them land in Kashmir to stabilize the society and tilt the demographic balance in our favor.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 15 Jun 2022 09:51

arshyam wrote:Is this to solve the shortage of officers or ORs? If the former, the SSC already exists, and if the latter, don't we get enough candidates in recruitment rallies? I've never read about a shortage of jawans, it's always been about officers. Given this, what problem is this scheme solving?

Admittedly, my views are a bit coloured by the media's reference to this as a "tour of duty" scheme, which is widely used by the Americans in their expeditionary adventures (hence "touring" some far off place for a short duration), and who only ended up botching these "tours" (Iraq, Afg being the best examples). I hope we are not importing the worst of American practices here...

The pension bill, that Sachin mentioned, is killing us. We are probably the only major army where the pension bill is higher than the salary bill and
the same as the Capital expenditure and revenue expenditure combined. I don't see critics of this scheme offering a solution to the pension bill.

This scheme also reduces the average age of the army. At 30+ the average army man is married, with 2 kids and probably more risk averse than
a 20 y.o A younger person may also be more tech savvy. I have hired a number of retired soldiers and many have never used a computer.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 15 Jun 2022 09:56

chetak wrote:
Maj Gen (Dr)GD Bakshi SM,VSM(retd)@GeneralBakshi · 10h

For Gods sake PLEASE DONT do it

https://twitter.com/GeneralBakshi/statu ... 6991479808

His full FB post is here--->
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1513843955

Agniveer. All militaries have their organisational culture and Ethos. India has had a tradition of All volunteer full colour service armies.Switching to a 4 year virtual tour of duty model overnight would be a highly disruptive change. Problem areas could be:-
1.Ukraine war has shown conscripts to be weakest link in chain.Their lack of integration and experience was fatal. Russia has no lack of Equipment - it lacks manpower.
2. we were releasing men after 7 years of colour service at 30 years age earlier. They were never absorbed in CPOs or found Jobs in industry.if trained & young military manpower released is not absorbed it could join terrorists or insurgents,
3.4 year contractual period militates against Integration in unit& could make men RISK AVERSE. If we cater for 6 months trg period and 8 months annual leave- residual service will be just around 3 years actual.
5 Book keepers cant be allowed to run amok with OPERATIONAL Effectiveness of a force. this is being done to save money In Revenue budget to enhance capital budget . Pl dont destroy Effective organisations to save money. Increase defense budget to 3% of GDP.
6.With high threat From China and Pak this is NOT opportune time to generate great ORGANISATIONAL TURBULENCE.
7. This new model will badly affect popularity of armed forces as a career

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 10:06

So are we going to see Thambi's posted to a Dogra unit or a Maratha posted to a Naga unit?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2022 10:11

If pension bill is the major issue here, can't we increase the defence budget so other areas aren't starved? Why change the recruitment pattern wholesale? Gen Bakshi is saying the same thing, why the heck is our defence budget at a measly <2% of GDP?

People may recollect the analysis done in the forum after Galwan happened - one of the major points that came up was the poor quality of the Chinese soldier, who is basically a 2-year conscript, with one-year's effective service in toto, followed by a college admission or whatever. That made them risk averse and not willing to patrol the heights, stay in their tents and only go around in APCs, etc. These were the points discussed on BRF then.

How will this scheme not turn our forces into a mirror image the Chinese? A 4 year commitment sounds better than the 2-yrs PLA expects, but that's pretty much it.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 10:12

sanjayc wrote:Brilliant scheme. Will infuse martial spirit again into Hindu society. This pool of decommissioned soldiers can be called upon in national emergencies, war and when momins try to capture the country by triggering civil war (about 30 years from now). To give them employment opportunities, it should be mandatory for para-military forces to hire 50% of their total intake of soldiers only from this pool of decommissioned soldiers. Give them land in Kashmir to stabilize the society and tilt the demographic balance in our favor.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2022 10:14

ks_sachin wrote:So are we going to see Thambi's posted to a Dogra unit or a Maratha posted to a Naga unit?

I think it was you (or another vet) who had once posted about an IA experiment with all-India infantry units, and how cohesion was not achieved making the Army give the experiment a quiet burial. So is this ver 2.0 of the same? Of course, the counter point is that other arms outside of Infantry, and services outside of the Army are practically all-India units, so maybe this issue is overblown. Not sure either way.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Jun 2022 10:15

We have seen the performance of the Chinese conscript soldiers in Ladakh. My deepest fear is that we should not end up like that.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2022 10:23

Instead of this "ToD" scheme, why not try to address the pension and age-profile issues by offering a VRS scheme for older soldiers, while recruiting more younger candidates with a more balanced pension scheme? I believe the current pension based on contributions anyway, but make improvements there if needed. If, at that point, there are issues about attracting candidates, offer better post-service options like lateral entry into the CAPFs (have to override the shuddering home ministry babus with their long disproved fear of coups and what not) and State police forces? Also offer better housing, insurance, and educational opportunities to the jawans' families, etc. Though so far, there is no indication of shortage of candidates for ORs (this was my first q above, so happy to be corrected).

At least, such an approach would not alter the composition of the troops, nor force a wholesale change at the tip of the spear which could impact morale and operational readiness.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2022 10:24

SSridhar wrote:We have seen the performance of the Chinese conscript soldiers in Ladakh. My deepest fear is that we should not end up like that.

Mine too.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2022 10:34

The current model of our forces today carry on one aspect of the old Kshatriya tradition - that of having a dedicated soldier corps in a kingdom. A lifetime of service effectively brings about the same ethos, that's why our armed forces are where they are, and command the respect from the aam aadmi. This scheme will introduce the concept of part-time soldier, which has never worked well anywhere, and only serves to reduce the effectiveness of the parent organisation. One cannot be a part time or timepass Kshatriya, either one is, or is not. That's why India did not have the concept of mercenary, even during British times. The early British units also recognized this aspect of the local populace and recruited based on a lifetime commitment from the soldier. They recognized one more thing - for a unit to be cohesive, recruitment from a like-minded pool was important. It was so important that the entire edifice of the British empire stood on the shoulders of the Indian troops. Hence the various "ethnic" units that continue with the practice even today, but looks that that day is coming to an end.

Note: I am not talking about specific varnas or jatis here. Just the qualities that make a soldier, which can be in any one of us.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 10:34

Deans wrote:
The pension bill, that Sachin mentioned, is killing us. We are probably the only major army where the pension bill is higher than the salary bill and
the same as the Capital expenditure and revenue expenditure combined. I don't see critics of this scheme offering a solution to the pension bill.

This scheme also reduces the average age of the army. At 30+ the average army man is married, with 2 kids and probably more risk averse than
a 20 y.o A younger person may also be more tech savvy. I have hired a number of retired soldiers and many have never used a computer.

Thanks, Deans. The point about a possible solution is lost. I spent about 2 weeks debating this with my old man and some others and also listened in on an interesting conversation.
What I got out of it I think is that there are a lot of naysayers but who are not prepared to put their minds to suggest alternatives. In addition, there has been a large amount of deliberation on this matter so I would say not a decision taken lightly.
Clearly the threat o the pension bill outweighs the risks of the concept in the eyes of AHQ and the GoI.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2022 10:36

I normally don't post much on the mil forum, but this topic has set off something in my mind

. Will go back to lurk mode now.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 10:40

arshyam the US has a tour of duty system as does the UK I think.
In the US men and women may join for varying time periods and then progress either continue or opt for officer corps - I am paraphrasing Brar_W here.

I do agree on the regimental ethos bit and if you remember in GEn Vaidya's time some bns were converted into amalgamated units. If I recollect a Punjab bn and a Maratha bn. Did not work and was discarded. Even within say the Bihar specific bn have a constitution from a specific area.

IF you look at the Gurkhas each of the regiments have a regional / ethnic identity - for example Rai / Limbu's / Gurkhas from Sikkim etc.

Just saw your post - please contribute. This topic I am hoping will shed light for some of our members on some of the more intitutuve parts of soldiering in the Indian Army.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 15 Jun 2022 10:51

SSridhar wrote:We have seen the performance of the Chinese conscript soldiers in Ladakh. My deepest fear is that we should not end up like that.

Conscripts = Compulsory enrollment into military for every able-bodied youth, whether they are willing or not

Angnipath is not a consripts scheme. These are soldiers being hired just like normal soldiers, through an entrance competition, just like regular soldiers, with same training and fitness. They are applying to join the army "voluntarily" and are not unwilling youth being drafted against their wishes or temperament. They are regular soldiers -- they are only being decomissioned early, that is all. They will constitute only 10% of the army soldiers -- the rest remain regular soldiers serving long-term like ususal. So how will this impact the army's fighting abilities? It will infact reduce the average age of soldiers on the frontlines, and also give much-needed military training to Indian youth for the tough times coming ahead.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 10:56

sanjayc - I am playing devils advocate

- it takes more than a year to turn a youngster from a raw person from the street into a soldier who will be effective. This training for the inf starts at the centre and continues at the bn.

Now this is based on our org structure.

So one of the arguments is that by the time the boys are really ready it is time to bid them goodbye.
In addition centres and inf bns are going to be caught up in this merry go round of training which will esp at the bn level impact on what they should be concentrating on combat readiness.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 15 Jun 2022 10:57

arshyam wrote:The current model of our forces today carry on one aspect of the old Kshatriya tradition - that of having a dedicated soldier corps in a kingdom. A lifetime of service effectively brings about the same ethos, that's why our armed forces are where they are, and command the respect from the aam aadmi. This scheme will introduce the concept of part-time soldier, which has never worked well anywhere, and only serves to reduce the effectiveness of the parent organisation. One cannot be a part time or timepass Kshatriya, either one is, or is not. That's why India did not have the concept of mercenary, even during British times. The early British units also recognized this aspect of the local populace and recruited based on a lifetime commitment from the soldier. They recognized one more thing - for a unit to be cohesive, recruitment from a like-minded pool was important. It was so important that the entire edifice of the British empire stood on the shoulders of the Indian troops. Hence the various "ethnic" units that continue with the practice even today, but looks that that day is coming to an end.

Note: I am not talking about specific varnas or jatis here. Just the qualities that make a soldier, which can be in any one of us.

These are regular soldiers who are just being decomissioned early. They are not part-time or mercenaries.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jun 2022 11:06

I would think if these Agniveers are mostly used in the tail to improve "teeth to tail" ratio, without enormous pension bills, and at the same time imparting the army ethos to a section of the youth, who can be called upon at some later date if needed, is a good thing.

They will get exposure to core fighting activities as well, and the best 25% can be absorbed as career soldiers, so its not like we are training people and not using them later.

So yes, sounds good, even on paper

kit · Post by **kit** » 15 Jun 2022 11:08

25 percent of those intake goes to fill the regular army. Whats the khujli ? A leaner meaner army is in best interest of everyone. Also the 75 percent coming off would find their life in society much easier in the long run. A disciplined patriotic Indian is worth a 1000 couch potatoes binging on social memes. I myself would take it without a second thought !

And all recruitment based on MERIT

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 11:11

But are they soldiers truly. Just calling them so does not make them so.
IF this scheme is here to stay do we go the next step and potentially look at reorg of basic soldier training.
Get rid of regimental centres perhaps....

As usual though the devil is in the detail as Kit has brought out.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 15 Jun 2022 11:23

After 4 years, Agniveers can be absorbed in Central Police forces, or can be given additional benefits - cheaper loans, reservations in central jobs (railways, PSUs, etc). these schemes will evolve over the next few years.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 11:26

Deshmukh sirji this is supposed to happen now. Does not happen?
WE don't treat our retired servicemen/women well.

AdityaVM · Post by **AdityaVM** » 15 Jun 2022 11:40

I think seeing this through the lens of purely operational aspect of the Armed Forces and Financial aspects of the pension bill is not right.

The pension bill is unsustainable. Period. We cannot increase the Defence Budget more because, then it would be a true Zero Sum game between spending more on defence or on infra. Large swathes of the country still remain underdeveloped because of lack of investment in infrastructure. We cannot ignore that.

We cannot sacrifice infra spending as Infrastructure spending is a true boost to the economy with very good returns into the economy. It is one of the fundamentals needed to bring India back to its Golden Age. But, we are limited in our means so it would result in having both under developed infra and an Armed Force that is obsolete because of lack of capital expenditure. It would be a double whammy worse than any we have seen. So, once freed up, the defence budget can be invested in capital expenditure to truly modernize the Armed Forces and not piece meal as we see today. Of course all of it under Atmanirbhar Bharat.

The resulting investment in capital items will bring much needed transformation in the Armed Forces. There is also another aspect we might consider.

Who is this scheme targeted against ? It is not the city dwelling, English medium educated college aspiring middle class youth. It is the Rural youth, who probably studied in Vernacular Medium, and is not having bright prospects of a job.

Worldwide, especially in Khanland, Armed Forces especially direct recruitment has been used as a vehicle for upward mobility from the lower class to make an entry into Middle Class. The monthly starting salary of Rs. 21k per month might sound low for us folks, but for folks from the Rural hinterland all over India that is a significant amount that can comfortably support a family.

So, after four years of service, the recruit will have 12 Lakhs in hand with an experience of Discipline in the army and handling arms along with Preference in Govt jobs and CAPF jobs. Those 12 Lakhs can be used to start a business, Build a house etc, further contributing to the economy while at the same time bringing much needed militarism to the Hindu Society. The Folks who opt out will thus graduate from being being above poverty line to Middle Class and with the number of people that Armed Forces recruit that is not a small number, even to a country like ours with Large population.

About the operational efficiency of the Armed Forces getting compromised because of the scheme, I would like to think this step was taken after due consideration of the same. Though I don’t know enough to comment on the same.

More experienced and knowledgeable BRFites can comment on the same to enlighten us.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Jun 2022 11:52

^^Well stated AdityaVM