Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

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bala
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by bala »

I love NSA Ajit Doval and his clear thinking. Such clarity, such forceful points comes from deep experience and of course being in leadership for a long time his voice is important for every Indian. If India is fortunate to have leaders like him in all spheres India will be dramatically transformed.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd), Former CNS.

Arun Prakash writes: Agnipath, between the lines
https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... s-7979936/

Turmoil points to two larger absences: India doesn't have a National Security Doctrine. Armed forces have remained outside ambit of reform

Written By Arun Prakash |
Updated: June 20, 2022 7:31:44 pm

So dreadful is the prospect of a military defeat, and so horrifying its consequences, that nations are willing to go to any length to avoid such an outcome. It is for this reason that national security has been historically deemed, worldwide — by economists and not soldiers — as “the first charge on the treasury.”

Independent India, unfortunately, saw defence expenditure being relegated to the “non-plan” category, within the ambit of a Soviet-inspired, central economy. In another anomaly, the pension bill of veteran soldiers — a separate charge on the exchequer — was linked to the defence budget and its (inevitable) growth trotted out as an excuse for the dwindling funds available for force-enhancement and hardware replacement/modernisation.

Thus, for years, governments dragged their feet, for “want of resources”, over the army’s demand for a mountain strike corps. But, ironically, the 2020 Chinese incursions in Ladakh resulted in the deployment of 50,000-60,000 troops — over a corps strength — and the outflow of a huge unplanned expenditure to support this indefinite deployment.

The most disheartening aspect of this situation has been the fact that the finance ministry, instead of finding ways and means of raising essential, additional funds for national defence, has passed the buck to the armed forces, and demanded that they evolve measures for reducing the pension bill. One presumes that the Agnipath scheme, launched with much fanfare, is an outcome of this demand.

But rather than engage in a critique of this controversial project, which has already seen much debate, controversy and public disturbances, let me focus on two larger issues, which lie at the root of much that is wrong in our approach to national security.

Every nation faces the eternal “guns vs butter” dilemma, and has to find its own way to resolve, what the US military terms the “ends-ways-means” conundrum. All major powers undertake a periodic (every 4-5 years) review of their evolving national security objectives, the options available, and the economic/military means available for achieving them. Such reviews automatically generate assessments of existing/potential adversary threats to national interests, as well as the state of own military’s material/operational readiness.

From here, it is a short step to the estimation of the military capabilities required, and the funding support that the nation will need to generate. Apart from providing fiscal guidance, this process also facilitates the evolution of a national security strategy. Our neighbourhood adversary, China, has, since 2002, been issuing, with unfailing regularity, a biennial “Defence White Paper”, which encapsulates all of the foregoing, and is available on the Internet; for the information of foes and friends, alike.

The government of India, on the other hand, has neglected to undertake any such exercise, in the past 75 years. It has, thereby deprived itself, and the taxpayer, of a holistic, national security picture of: (a) Where we stand; (b) where do we want to go; and (c) how do we intend to get there? Unsurprisingly, India is amongst the few major powers which has failed to issue a National Security Strategy or Doctrine, and is consequently seen offering fumbling responses, to emergent threats as well as to financial stringency in the security domain.

A second fact that we need to face is that our armed forces have remained in a Second World War time-warp, as far as their organisation and doctrines are concerned. Half-hearted attempts at organisational reform have come to naught due to lack of political will as well as internal resistance from the services; with the constitution of a Chief of Defence Staff and creation of a Department of Military Affairs providing the latest examples.

However, the most troubling lacuna is that our 1.4 million strong army has neither benefitted fully from the “revolution in military affairs” of the 1980 -2000 era, nor learnt all the lessons of the ongoing “hybrid warfare,” and remains fixated on the “boots-on-the-ground” syndrome. Given the transformed nature of warfare, down-sizing of the Indian army, by substituting manpower with smart technology and innovative tactics, has become an imperative need. Against this backdrop, a scheme on the lines of Agnipath, appropriately constituted, and focused on enhancing “combat effectiveness” rather than “effecting savings” or “generating employment,” could have triggered a reformative process. But a number of caveats need to be borne in mind in this context.

Firstly, given the parlous security situation, on the country’s northern and western borders as well as the ongoing domestic turbulence, this is not the best time to cast the armed forces — already short of manpower — into turmoil, with a radical and untried new recruitment system.

Secondly, such a scheme, in its present form, is suitable only for the army, whose large infantry component is not excessively burdened with technology. In case of the navy and air force, it must be recognised that at least 5-6 years are required before a new entrant can acquire enough hands-on experience to be entrusted with the operation or maintenance of lethal weapon systems and complex machinery and electronics.

Thirdly, no matter how extensively the issue was discussed in meetings or on files, a radical change of this nature should have been subjected to a trial before service-wide implementation. Ideally, a few units of the regular or Territorial Army could have been earmarked as a testing ground, and feed-back obtained.

Lastly, bitter experience of the past has shown that the home ministry has resisted induction of ex-servicemen into the armed-police and para-military forces, on the grounds that it would spoil the career path of their own cadres. Similarly, state governments and other agencies have blatantly ignored the reservations mandated for ESM. Therefore, if the Agnipath scheme has to offer a meaningful promise of post-demobilisation employment or education, this must be mandated by an Act of Parliament, on the lines of the “GI Bill” enacted by the US Congress.

In conclusion, seeing the detritus of burnt trains, wrecked buses and social turmoil, often seen in the wake of many recent pronouncements, one is left wondering whether dissenting opinions are tolerated and contrarian advice accepted or given any weightage in our high-level decision-making forums?

The writer is a retired Chief of Naval Staff.
ramana
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Despite many assurances after the Agnipath Program was introduced, retired folks keep asking for it to be tweaked.
I ask how many did anything while they were in charge during their service?
Basically close to zero.
And they want to make India adopt US laws!
BTW his last line is his real thoughts.
SAD
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by vijayk »

suryag wrote:Ajit-ji has spoken
Sidesteps police reform issue.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote: I ask how many did anything while they were in charge during their service?
Basically close to zero.
Ramana sir what would you have them do?

Any major reform has to be approved by the MoD / Ministry.

Anyhow, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. I feel that there are some valid concerns but I am hopeful these will be addressed.

Trust is the key.

Here is what has been approved from the Shekatkar Committee report. 65 recommendations were approved out of a total of 99 odd which were accepted. The Committee itself made about 188 recommendations.

The first phase of the reforms involves redeployment and restructuring of approximately 57,000 posts of officers/JCOs/ORs and civilians. Major reforms concerning the following have been approved:-

· Optimisation of Signals Establishments to include Radio Monitoring Companies, Corps Air Support Signal Regiments, Air Formation Signal Regiments, Composite Signal Regiments and merger of Corps Operating and Engineering Signal Regiments.

· Restructuring of repair echelons in the Army to include Base Workshops, Advance Base Workshops and Static/Station Workshops in the field Army.

· Redeployment of Ordnance echelons to include Vehicle Depots, Ordnance Depots and Central Ordnance Depots apart from streamlining inventory control mechanisms.

· Better utilization of Supply and Transport echelons and Animal Transport units.

· Closure of Military Farms and Army postal establishments in peace locations.

· Enhancement in standards for recruitment of clerical staff and drivers in the Army.

· Improving the efficiency of the National Cadet Corps.

Over and above that
- There is the process of optimisation ongoing this includes manpower reduction (that is over and above the shortfall that currently exists).

On top of that -

- Theaterisation
- IBG concept


There is a lot of change happening and guess what all this has to happen without disrupting the operational capability.

It is good that the government is now focused on transformation and supporting the armed forces. The chiefs need that support as we are not a peace time army and have a very high operational tempo.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

ramana wrote:By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd), Former CNS.

Arun Prakash writes: Agnipath, between the lines
https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... s-7979936/

Turmoil points to two larger absences: India doesn't have a National Security Doctrine. Armed forces have remained outside ambit of reform

Written By Arun Prakash |
Updated: June 20, 2022 7:31:44 pm
<snip>
Lastly, bitter experience of the past has shown that the home ministry has resisted induction of ex-servicemen into the armed-police and para-military forces, on the grounds that it would spoil the career path of their own cadres. Similarly, state governments and other agencies have blatantly ignored the reservations mandated for ESM. Therefore, if the Agnipath scheme has to offer a meaningful promise of post-demobilisation employment or education, this must be mandated by an Act of Parliament, on the lines of the “GI Bill” enacted by the US Congress.
<snip>
Actual point is this ... the whole dis-affection is wrt no assurance wrt post de-induction job security, rest are all mere side-shows/fluff.
And no, announcements like 10% reservation etc in CAPF etc means zilch ... instead, a law* is required which ensures all Agneevirs, post-demobilisation, get a first-right-to-denial for yearly entry-level intake of ALL CAPF.
i.e. only after all that years demobilised Agneeveers are exhausted wrt joining CAPF, any remaining CAPF entry-level positions be announced/opened to general public.

And I'm sure there are emany more such though processes that are already out there.

But all these are only possible, when there's any willingness to listen to as large a public as possible and not merely relegate it to some executive decision.
Does this not qualify as an high-impact policy decision that requires legislature involvement?

Ramanaji, wrt your outright vitriol (result of ideological affinity, that most often blindsides, is it?) towards anybody with opposing view wrt the scheme, I ask, how difficult was it be first introduced in Parliament (or any other public forum) and let it be debated for around an year?
So that any dissatisfaction, counter-viewpoints etc could have come out and discussed thread-bare.
Would it not have increased the general acceptance level? Was any of this violent protests etc required?
Is ask you, did we see any of that till now?

* Better still make it a constitutional amendement bill - yes will require quite a bit of political capital as it will require concurrence of majority of state assemblies, apart from ascent from both the houses, but this is a big enough policy change, that almost mandates it.
That way it becomes a mandatory requirement for all State level police (including armed constabulary, special police units etc) recruitments.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ritesh »

bala wrote:I love NSA Ajit Doval and his clear thinking. Such clarity, such forceful points comes from deep experience and of course being in leadership for a long time his voice is important for every Indian. If India is fortunate to have leaders like him in all spheres India will be dramatically transformed.
You mean James bond? Events since anti-caa and Delhi riots tell another story. He seems to be biggest liability of this govt.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by vijayk »

Due to Agnipath scheme, is there a stoppage to regular recruitment of army? I keep hearing conflicting messages
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

vijayk wrote:Due to Agnipath scheme, is there a stoppage to regular recruitment of army? I keep hearing conflicting messages
At it is peak, the scheme will see 50% of recruitment through Agnipath and the remaining 50% through regular recruitment.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

Rakesh wrote:
vijayk wrote:Due to Agnipath scheme, is there a stoppage to regular recruitment of army? I keep hearing conflicting messages
At it is peak, the scheme will see 50% of recruitment through Agnipath and the remaining 50% through regular recruitment.
That's not correct. All recruitment will be through Agniveer.
The experienced 50% will be those who will.continue to stay after Agniveer

Source: I recall this from the interview given by Tri Services Chiefs where the Air Chief said that all recruitment will be through Agniveer alone
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

My bad Dexter. I got that info from an interview that the VCOAS gave recently. Unless, I am misreading the quote below....

Govt raises age limit to 23 under Agnipath scheme, asserts intake will go up, lists post-service avenues
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 241442.cms
17 June 2022
The eventual aim is to have a 50:50 ratio of regular cadre soldiers and Agniveers.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Priyanshu1590/statu ... OlDfH1nr1Q ---> India's defence budget for 2022-23 is ₹5,25,166 crore ($70.6 billion). Majority of it would go in Salaries (31%) and Pensions (23%). Source:- @Stats_of_India

Image
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Will Corporate Assurances Help Agniveers? | Left, Right & Centre

Corporate India has spoken up in a united voice with the message that the Agniveer scheme will bring excellent, trained youngsters into the job market - but that brings us the question - what has corporate India, or for that matter, the government done for ex-servicemen jobs so far? Tonight on Left, Right & Centre, we explore what happened to all the quotas that exist in government jobs, and whether retired soldiers get those jobs.

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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

maitya wrote: Does this not qualify as an high-impact policy decision that requires legislature involvement?
Does not require legislative involvement. These are highly dynamic policy and procedural actions. The only time it "needs" legislative action is if there is change (increase) to the budget. Things take a legislative route only if the executive does not have the authority to take action and in this case the executive did not require any such additional authority. Furthermore, because India does not have a strict separation of powers between the executive and legislature the matter is mute. Unlike Khan, our parliament has no independent "oversight" responsibility on the administration. There is the ability to ask questions to ministers on policies in the legislature and I am sure that will occur when Parliament convenes.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 23 Jun 2022 07:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

viveks wrote:Just saw a snapshot of BJP MP saying that Angeeveer would get security jobs after 4 years of service in the army and he would have earned 12 lakh rupees in that time.

My points.

1. Reducing the dignity of serving in the army to a mere political party security guard.
2. The BJP MP is more concerned about the 12 lakhs of rupees earned by the Agneeveer than his own dignity. This is really a capitalistic move and not a good thing by the government.

I mean ...be it civilian dignity or even dignity of a soldier....people dont even know how to respect it.

What the MP says is not policy.

It reflects one man’s narrow thinking.

That said, security business can be quite lucrative, and there is no reason why an Agniveer should be restricted to being a low-level security guard. With some entrepreneurial spirit and expertise he could head up a sophisticated security company.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

All this corporate job stuff what is it?

These are boys from the villages some of them can barely read or write. The Army won’t teach them that. The army will make him a effective killer which is what it needs to do
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

viveks wrote:
sanjayc wrote:What is your hostility to a "capitalist move" ? Would you rather that the government made a communist move?
Who said anything about a communist move? Do you work for the CIA? Are you un-necessarily trying to harass and bother me? Next thing you will say I am trying to advocate facism, socialism....then the last but not the least advocate Aryan beliefs.

Do you not believe in non-aligned movement of nations? I cant believe I am having this conversation. People want to sub-due internet free speech and give me warnings here but when you watch the news and young fresh blood out there is feeling, then you will realize.

We defended Kargil successfully without any great Technology that you so willing are seeing nothing but else. What about the lives of people who have less mental aptitude and the only thing in their minds is to get into the armed forces and stick around.
Any reform is not going to be perfect, by definition it is going to be hard on those who put all their faith in the old system.

I too have reservations about the Agnipath scheme. Personally I think India should transition to a global military whose cost is partly borne by foreign countries in an indirect way. That’s a bit of a pie-in-the-sky vision but that’s my vision.

But that’s not the position of the government. They have given sound reasons for the change. Need for a younger soldier in the field, reducing the pension burden, focus on skills development, catalyzing society with dynamic young ex-servicemen etc.

Debate those points in a focused way if you would.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I think we should close this thread next week as the recruitments start.
Most of what was said was bogus and hot air.
Sad that the retired folks I hoped would give thoughtful remarks but gave pet bokwas.

What this means is we can't rely on them for future advice or comments on most topics.
Have to put a filter.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ldev »

The imperative to downsize/rightsize the Indian armed forces, specially the Indian Army so that a greater proportion of the defence budget can be allocated for weapons purchases and modernization has been self evident for quite some time. Think about the strain that even moderate size capital purchases such as the Rafale place on the budget inspite of the fact that India has the world's 3rd largest defence budget. Even the Chinese have gone through this downsizing process. This Agnipath scheme IMO is an ingenious solution to this problem. Recruits are essentially on probation for the first 4 years. At the end of the 4 year period, the armed forces can pick the best from the best of the batch depending on manpower requirements for that particular year and the acceptance/rejection ratio can vary from year to year depending again on requirements. Over a period of 10-15 years, it will enable the armed forces to downsize/rightsize manpower strength to what they believe is optimal and increase the proportion of funds available for modernization via capital purchases.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

ldev wrote:The imperative to downsize/rightsize the Indian armed forces, specially the Indian Army so that a greater proportion of the defence budget can be allocated for weapons purchases and modernization has been self evident for quite some time. Think about the strain that even moderate size capital purchases such as the Rafale place on the budget inspite of the fact that India has the world's 3rd largest defence budget. Even the Chinese have gone through this downsizing process. This Agnipath scheme IMO is an ingenious solution to this problem. Recruits are essentially on probation for the first 4 years. At the end of the 4 year period, the armed forces can pick the best from the best of the batch depending on manpower requirements for that particular year and the acceptance/rejection ratio can vary from year to year depending again on requirements. Over a period of 10-15 years, it will enable the armed forces to downsize/rightsize manpower strength to what they believe is optimal and increase the proportion of funds available for modernization via capital purchases.
No one disputes that. We are all in favour.

The question is how and when.

How is the process of change - internally and externally.

I don't know internally but externally - could it have been managed better while some vets are predictable in their responses there are some others who have raised interesting points of discussion. The process followed I believe was that the AHQ put up a series of options and pros and cons and ultimately the powers that be decided...The key question is what were the boundaries that AHQ personnel involved in the exercise worked under. Anyhow it is what it is including the violence we have seen.

There is also the question of organisational change - I have in a previous post listed some of the things that are happening at the moment. So how do you make any change that you want to institute as non-disruptive as possible while acknowledging that there will be some disruption?

Will the changes in manpower have an impact on doctrinal changes like theaterisation / IBGs etc. I am not an expert but these are concerns that someone like Gen Campose (Ex VCoAS) has raised while being supportive of the scheme generally.

But we should never stifle debate or not listen to dissenting views. Some of these vets know the stuff and can see the big picture.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

ramana wrote:Despite many assurances after the Agnipath Program was introduced, retired folks keep asking for it to be tweaked.
I ask how many did anything while they were in charge during their service?
Basically close to zero.
And they want to make India adopt US laws!
BTW his last line is his real thoughts.
SAD
It’s a funny thing for him to say.

Those who burn trains and engage in violence whenever the lawful government takes a lawful decision are the ones who can’t tolerate anything being done against their wishes.

The fact that the admiral considers that kind of violence evidence of the government’s intolerance (aside from him ignoring the fact that he as well as huge number of others have been carping openly about the government’s policy without facing any problems ) doesn’t speak highly of the admiral’s common sense or objectivity.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

KLNMurthy wrote:
ramana wrote:Despite many assurances after the Agnipath Program was introduced, retired folks keep asking for it to be tweaked.
I ask how many did anything while they were in charge during their service?
Basically close to zero.
And they want to make India adopt US laws!
BTW his last line is his real thoughts.
SAD
It’s a funny thing for him to say.

Those who burn trains and engage in violence whenever the lawful government takes a lawful decision are the ones who can’t tolerate anything being done against their wishes.

The fact that the admiral considers that kind of violence evidence of the government’s intolerance (aside from him ignoring the fact that he as well as huge number of others have been carping openly about the government’s policy without facing any problems ) doesn’t speak highly of the admiral’s common sense or objectivity.
Is he though?

Evidence or consequence - i think that there is a distinction here dont't you think?
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

ks_sachin wrote:All this corporate job stuff what is it?

These are boys from the villages some of them can barely read or write. The Army won’t teach them that. The army will make him a effective killer which is what it needs to do
Sachin ji,

Armed forces are very much technical in nature nowadays, especially IAF and IN.

Someone who has worked on tank engines is immediately desirable to Genset manufacturer for after sales support. Someone who has worked on field communication or air defence systems is desirable to the telecom sector. Someone who has worked in logistical support roles is desirable to logistics firms.

Every ship has dedicated personnel for power generation and distribution, HVAC, automation, fire fighting, access control and other MEP services. We aren't even talking about highly technical roles such as radars, communications or aircraft maintenance.

Army and IAF base repair depots and workshops are some of the most wonderful places to learn trades to a high standards.

I have worked with people from armed forces (many from non officer cadres) in technical roles who got their jobs based on the diploma courses courtesy of armed forces and hands on experience.

Essentially anyone who has worked on any role except infantry or sentry duties gains trade skills.

The major caveat being, every such person I have worked with had 15 years of experience in armed forces. Agnipath time duration is very small to gain any viable experience. Which is why I am in favour of increased duration and increased certificate courses of ITI or Diploma level.

Any commitment from industry is about as serious as their commitments for diversity in hiring. All these corporates will do is parade around a handful of ex servicemen for brownie points, maybe change their Twitter DP on armed forces days like they do with LGBT people and rainbow flags.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Sirji,

IN know of and IAF I have observed. The educational background of IAF and IN and its impact on methods of leadership was an interesting item of thinking for me - juxtaposing it against leading an inf batallion for example.

IA is my experience and Inf my concern. When you say trade skills in inf / arty what are you talking about?

But perhaps I am living in a different time.

Even Eng / Signals etc I am less worried about.

I agree about the 4 years with you but people say don't worry so I shall not.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by shaun »

Thakur_B wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:All this corporate job stuff what is it?

These are boys from the villages some of them can barely read or write. The Army won’t teach them that. The army will make him a effective killer which is what it needs to do
Sachin ji,

Armed forces are very much technical in nature nowadays, especially IAF and IN.

Someone who has worked on tank engines is immediately desirable to Genset manufacturer for after sales support. Someone who has worked on field communication or air defence systems is desirable to the telecom sector. Someone who has worked in logistical support roles is desirable to logistics firms.

Every ship has dedicated personnel for power generation and distribution, HVAC, automation, fire fighting, access control and other MEP services. We aren't even talking about highly technical roles such as radars, communications or aircraft maintenance.

Army and IAF base repair depots and workshops are some of the most wonderful places to learn trades to a high standards.

I have worked with people from armed forces (many from non officer cadres) in technical roles who got their jobs based on the diploma courses courtesy of armed forces and hands on experience.

Essentially anyone who has worked on any role except infantry or sentry duties gains trade skills.

The major caveat being, every such person I have worked with had 15 years of experience in armed forces. Agnipath time duration is very small to gain any viable experience. Which is why I am in favour of increased duration and increased certificate courses of ITI or Diploma level.

Any commitment from industry is about as serious as their commitments for diversity in hiring. All these corporates will do is parade around a handful of ex servicemen for brownie points, maybe change their Twitter DP on armed forces days like they do with LGBT people and rainbow flags.

Very pertinent point , should have started it as a pilot project , increase budget as it's any way low considering two hostile nuclear neighbors . One thing I differ , corporates will be more than welcome , trained ( not experienced) entry level candidates.

Case study will be how are SSC officers faring in corporate world compare to their PC counterparts
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by shaun »

Thakur_B wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:All this corporate job stuff what is it?

These are boys from the villages some of them can barely read or write. The Army won’t teach them that. The army will make him a effective killer which is what it needs to do
Sachin ji,

Armed forces are very much technical in nature nowadays, especially IAF and IN.

Someone who has worked on tank engines is immediately desirable to Genset manufacturer for after sales support. Someone who has worked on field communication or air defence systems is desirable to the telecom sector. Someone who has worked in logistical support roles is desirable to logistics firms.

Every ship has dedicated personnel for power generation and distribution, HVAC, automation, fire fighting, access control and other MEP services. We aren't even talking about highly technical roles such as radars, communications or aircraft maintenance.

Army and IAF base repair depots and workshops are some of the most wonderful places to learn trades to a high standards.

I have worked with people from armed forces (many from non officer cadres) in technical roles who got their jobs based on the diploma courses courtesy of armed forces and hands on experience.

Essentially anyone who has worked on any role except infantry or sentry duties gains trade skills.

The major caveat being, every such person I have worked with had 15 years of experience in armed forces. Agnipath time duration is very small to gain any viable experience. Which is why I am in favour of increased duration and increased certificate courses of ITI or Diploma level.

Any commitment from industry is about as serious as their commitments for diversity in hiring. All these corporates will do is parade around a handful of ex servicemen for brownie points, maybe change their Twitter DP on armed forces days like they do with LGBT people and rainbow flags.

Very pertinent point , should have started it as a pilot project , increase budget as it's any way low considering two hostile nuclear neighbors . One thing I differ , corporates will be more than welcome , trained ( not experienced) entry level candidates.
maitya
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

maitya wrote: <snip>
Actual point is this ... the whole dis-affection is wrt no assurance wrt post de-induction job security, rest are all mere side-shows/fluff.
And no, announcements like 10% reservation etc in CAPF etc means zilch ... instead, a law* is required which ensures all Agneevirs, post-demobilisation, get a first-right-to-denial for yearly entry-level intake of ALL CAPF.
i.e. only after all that years demobilised Agneeveers are exhausted wrt joining CAPF, any remaining CAPF entry-level positions be announced/opened to general public.
<snip>
Answering my own post, some data:

Type..........................................Count
----------------------------------------------------
Demobilised (Available/Year)..........46,000
Absorbed in Armed Forced (25%).......11,500
Vol Step Away (assumed 10%)............4,600
------------------------------------------------------
Effective avail. for absorption..........29,900
------------------------------------------------------

Avg Annual Intake (Entry Level or GD Constable only)
CAPF........................................25,000**
Delhi Police.................................6,000
State Armed Police forces...............18,000*
------------------------------------------------------
Available for General Public .......... 19,100
(after full absorption of de-mobilised Agneevers)

*Avg 10 battalion per "major" state (assumed 18) - each battalion 1K personnel
UP has 23 battalions, Smaller NE states may have 2-3 battalions each, mid-sized states 8 battalions each
(assumed 10% entry level annual intake)

**In 2021, CAPF (BSF + AR + CISF + SSB + ITBP etc) alone recruited (22K Men + 3K Women) General Duty Cosntables
KLNMurthy
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

ks_sachin wrote:


Is he though?

Evidence or consequence - i think that there is a distinction here dont't you think?
In hindsight, perhaps a massive PR blitz by government should have preceded the Agnipath announcement.

Perhaps.

But can we guarantee that opening it up to public discussion wouldn’t have bogged it down in bad-faith criticism and doomsaying? We have seen that happen consistently each time some key reform was introduced.

Ultimately the lawfully elected government, with unambiguous majority, has the power and right to take decisions and move the country forward. Not every decision will be perfect in every possible way—there are always tradeoffs—but this is how progress is made.

BIF have fostered a culture of street veto of government decisions. This is what we are seeing in every case including the present one.

The logic of “the train burning is consequence of government being undemocratic” is a cheap rhetorical trick:

- show the government time & again that you will paralyze their decision making ability

- at the same time, constantly accuse the government of inaction and inability to deal with various crises (all of which require decisions, but see previous point)

- force the government to make fait accompli announcement of key decisions

- activate mindless street opposition and destruction by pushing a button as it were. The point of this opposition is to declare that, “if you don’t submit to us (BIF) we will destroy everything.” That is next-level intolerance.

- point to the violence as “proof” of government’s undemocratic functioning, or excuse it as just consequence of government intolerance, Hindutva fascism, blah blah.

Why are BRFites falling for this trick?
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by bala »

Now other industries are clamoring for Agniveers

https://infra.economictimes.indiatimes. ... a/92410528

The Indian Steel Association (ISA) has welcomed the government's Agnipath scheme saying the industry needs Agniveers as such talent can help achieve the country's 300 MT steel production capacity target. Under the National Steel Policy 2017, the government has set an ambitious target of scaling up India's steel-making capacity to 300 million tonne (MT). Agnipath is a win-win for all. The Indian steel industry needs lakhs of trained and disciplined men and women to enable its growth ambition to achieve 300 MTPA, as per the National Steel Policy. ISA Secretary-General Alok Sahay said Agnipath is a path breaking scheme of the government. In fact, it is a movement for Skill India-Secure India. The qualities such as dedication to nation, commitment to work, honesty and discipline in work, which Agniveers would have after 4 years under Agnipath scheme will be immensely useful for all the employers.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Jay »

ldev wrote:The imperative to downsize/rightsize the Indian armed forces, specially the Indian Army so that a greater proportion of the defence budget can be allocated for weapons purchases and modernization has been self evident for quite some time.


That's fair, but when these weapons and modernizations exclude indian products and manpower, India will take a hit from two fronts. One from providing our own manpower for these projects which brings a lot of stability to he country, and second we will never be able to take that step of trusting and building our own capabilities. This is a self perpetuating cycle which if not broken will lead to a rapid and eventual decline of our capabilities(technical/manual).
Think about the strain that even moderate size capital purchases such as the Rafale place on the budget inspite of the fact that India has the world's 3rd largest defence budget. Even the Chinese have gone through this downsizing process.


Chinese only went through this process when they realized that as a nation, they can safely absorb the extra manpower in their nation building process with in its defense manufacturing industry. Where is that for us?
This Agnipath scheme IMO is an ingenious solution to this problem. Recruits are essentially on probation for the first 4 years. At the end of the 4 year period, the armed forces can pick the best from the best of the batch depending on manpower requirements for that particular year and the acceptance/rejection ratio can vary from year to year depending again on requirements. Over a period of 10-15 years, it will enable the armed forces to downsize/rightsize manpower strength to what they believe is optimal and increase the proportion of funds available for modernization via capital purchases.
This works only for armed forces and that too in the short to medium term(10-20 years), but is incredibly detrimental to the country as a whole. In 4 years time, we have hordes of semi capable youths who would be out of a career and not much in prospects and that is an incredibly un desirable solution for a country as diverse as ours.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by vijayk »

Jay wrote:
ldev wrote:The imperative to downsize/rightsize the Indian armed forces, specially the Indian Army so that a greater proportion of the defence budget can be allocated for weapons purchases and modernization has been self evident for quite some time.


That's fair, but when these weapons and modernizations exclude indian products and manpower, India will take a hit from two fronts. One from providing our own manpower for these projects which brings a lot of stability to he country, and second we will never be able to take that step of trusting and building our own capabilities. This is a self perpetuating cycle which if not broken will lead to a rapid and eventual decline of our capabilities(technical/manual).
Think about the strain that even moderate size capital purchases such as the Rafale place on the budget inspite of the fact that India has the world's 3rd largest defence budget. Even the Chinese have gone through this downsizing process.


Chinese only went through this process when they realized that as a nation, they can safely absorb the extra manpower in their nation building process with in its defense manufacturing industry. Where is that for us?
Isn't that what we are trying to do?
Make in India
Defence Industry
Manufacturing export
PLI schemes
Electronics/semiconductor industry


Didn't we improve manufacturing including defense manufacturing? Tejas/Drones


This works only for armed forces and that too in the short to medium term(10-20 years), but is incredibly detrimental to the country as a whole. In 4 years time, we have hordes of semi capable youths who would be out of a career and not much in prospects and that is an incredibly un desirable solution for a country as diverse as ours.
The goal is to have these folks with good training to come and help in defense sector/manufacturing sector
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by bala »

There is need to strengthen Railways Act and we will take action on this: Ashwin Vaishnaw

https://infra.economictimes.indiatimes. ... w/92325171
Over 340 trains were affected on Friday and more than seven trains set on fire by those protesting in Bihar and other states against the Centre's 'Agnipath' scheme for recruitment in the armed forces on a short-term basis. "We have to understand that the Railways is your own property and it provides service to that section which cannot afford flights and where no flight services exist," Vaishnaw said.

"I think there is a need to further strengthen the Railways Act and we will take action on this so that railway property can be further protected," Vaishnaw said.

Currently, those found guilty of damaging railway property are charged under section 151 of the Indian Railway Act, which has a provision of a maximum of seven years of imprisonment. He also said damaging railway property and disrupting rail services is not a solution for the protestors.
// good to see the Mantriji acting on the protest. India cannot tolerate any such public asset destruction in the name of protests.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Jay »

vijayk wrote:
Isn't that what we are trying to do?
Make in India
Defence Industry
Manufacturing export
PLI schemes
Electronics/semiconductor industry
Are we really doing this or pretending to be doing something? To me it seems to be the latter.

The goal is to have these folks with good training to come and help in defense sector/manufacturing sector
Sorry for being pessimistic, but it will mostly end up with these folks having some training in military procedures, unable to cross transfer their skills to an non existent military industrial sector, which for a major reason will be non existent because of the love our armed forces display to foreign purchases and a political class not having the vision to grasp the loss here.

Even to this day, IAF is still fighting hard for foreign fighters, and missiles while IA too will go to any lengths to induct a foreign weapons platform while giving no qualms in stage managing endless trials of desi products.

Are you saying that in 4 years time this will be gone?

Fool me once - shame on me, fool me twice - yada yada yada
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by wig »

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... ess-406059

Fitness for soldiering not just about youthfulness by Lt Gen N P S Hira (Retd)
excerpts
fitness
The kind of physical fitness required of a soldier is not just related to age. An infantry soldier needs to carry 30 to 35 kg of weight in battle, because he needs to be self-sustained for logistics as well as ammunition. Some of them have to carry machine guns, mortars and other man-pack weapon systems. The additional loads are shared within the entire fighting sub-unit. Even in the most advanced countries’armies, the soldiers have to carry that much weight. Technology has provided no succour to that. Technology has made some of the equipment lighter than before, but at the same time, it has added some more technical equipment for battlefield situational awareness and so on. The soldiers need to have the necessary mass and strength in their bodies so that they can carry that much weight into the battle.

Anyone who has visited any Indian Army recruitment training centre would have noticed that almost 80 per cent of our recruits do not have the muscle mass necessary for a soldier. We are genetically not as well-built as the people in western countries. Only a small percentage of our recruits have had enough milk or ghee at home. The others come from very modest backgrounds. Their health actually starts improving after they start getting proper nutrition in the Army. In the Indian Army, the graph of physical fitness of a soldier actually starts going up after he joins the Army. It moves up through his 20s, then it flattens and starts going down at around 35 years. This is the reason why a soldier is taken in the Army for 15 years and not allowed beyond that.


On the issue of physical fitness, the western countries are better placed than us. Even at a young age, their citizens have much higher body mass, including arms’ strength. Our recruits are good in long distance running, but they are very lightly built, particularly in the upper body. It takes around five years of service for them to build their bodies and toughen up to carry the battle loads.

The infantry units hold regular professional weapons competitions, like mortars firing, MMG firing, anti-tank weapons, commando platoon and so on. They need to carry complete battle loads and fire their weapons to the best of accuracy. One will not see many jawans below 21 or 22 years taking part in those competitions. Our most adopted lot of soldiers, even in the infantry which needs the most physically fit jawans as compared to any other arm, do not mostly belong to the Agnipath service bracket. It is not just for competition, this factor applies across the board, whenever we need to pick up jawans for the most sensitive operations on the Line of Control or in insurgency areas.


If the crunch issue is youthful profile, why would the infantry not pick the young soldiers for the most sensitive tasks? When the whole sub-unit has to take part, then everyone goes, but that does not prove the point that we are taking the younger ones because of their youthful profile. This whole argument that the Indian Army soldiers are old and, therefore, the military needs a reform of the Agnipath type is a made-up argument. Individuals normally do not do very well in their first exposure to gunfire. Operations need battle-hardened soldiers and not greenhorns. The word ‘veteran’ when used in the context of the Army, signifies exactly that. It is the combination of physical fitness, endurance and experience which delivers in the battle.

The second issue is about technology adoption. The younger generation is definitely more technology-savvy, but the Army will not gain by changing its soldiers every four years. Some of the weapon systems are so complex that the jawans need a fairly long time to learn to exploit them and gain confidence.

Agnipath will help the government save on its pension bill. However, the other two arguments put up in support of Agnipath do not stand scrutiny against past experience.

The government has also decided to do away with caste-based regiments in the Army. Our experience with the all-India regiments has been as good. At the same time, we need to appreciate that regimentation in a mixed unit is a function of long service in the unit. Therefore, there is a direct link between the changes proposed by government. Strong regimentation, be it through the caste bond or long service together, is one of the reasons why the Army units can take on much heavier casualties, as compared to most western armies.
Cyrano
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Man power rationalisation and optimisation in the forces and investment for modernization are two separate things. Using the former as the principal means to achieve the latter might be ok in some middling no growth country surrounded by peaceful neighbours. With India's security threats and growing international influence and exposure (which are two sides of the same coin) we need to pursue both ie put lot of energy and focus on better resource management and increase budgets aggressively.

This whole controversy has skewed the thinking of most people in service, ex-service and juntaa all in the wrong direction.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rampy »

wig wrote:https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... ess-406059

Fitness for soldiering not just about youthfulness by Lt Gen N P S Hira (Retd)
excerpts
fitness
The kind of physical fitness required of a soldier is not just related to age. An infantry soldier needs to carry 30 to 35 kg of weight in battle, because he needs to be self-sustained for logistics as well as ammunition. Some of them have to carry machine guns, mortars and other man-pack weapon systems. The additional loads are shared within the entire fighting sub-unit. Even in the most advanced countries’armies, the soldiers have to carry that much weight. Technology has provided no succour to that. Technology has made some of the equipment lighter than before, but at the same time, it has added some more technical equipment for battlefield situational awareness and so on. The soldiers need to have the necessary mass and strength in their bodies so that they can carry that much weight into the battle.

Anyone who has visited any Indian Army recruitment training centre would have noticed that almost 80 per cent of our recruits do not have the muscle mass necessary for a soldier. We are genetically not as well-built as the people in western countries. Only a small percentage of our recruits have had enough milk or ghee at home. The others come from very modest backgrounds. Their health actually starts improving after they start getting proper nutrition in the Army. In the Indian Army, the graph of physical fitness of a soldier actually starts going up after he joins the Army. It moves up through his 20s, then it flattens and starts going down at around 35 years. This is the reason why a soldier is taken in the Army for 15 years and not allowed beyond that.


On the issue of physical fitness, the western countries are better placed than us. Even at a young age, their citizens have much higher body mass, including arms’ strength. Our recruits are good in long distance running, but they are very lightly built, particularly in the upper body. It takes around five years of service for them to build their bodies and toughen up to carry the battle loads.

The infantry units hold regular professional weapons competitions, like mortars firing, MMG firing, anti-tank weapons, commando platoon and so on. They need to carry complete battle loads and fire their weapons to the best of accuracy. One will not see many jawans below 21 or 22 years taking part in those competitions. Our most adopted lot of soldiers, even in the infantry which needs the most physically fit jawans as compared to any other arm, do not mostly belong to the Agnipath service bracket. It is not just for competition, this factor applies across the board, whenever we need to pick up jawans for the most sensitive operations on the Line of Control or in insurgency areas.


If the crunch issue is youthful profile, why would the infantry not pick the young soldiers for the most sensitive tasks? When the whole sub-unit has to take part, then everyone goes, but that does not prove the point that we are taking the younger ones because of their youthful profile. This whole argument that the Indian Army soldiers are old and, therefore, the military needs a reform of the Agnipath type is a made-up argument. Individuals normally do not do very well in their first exposure to gunfire. Operations need battle-hardened soldiers and not greenhorns. The word ‘veteran’ when used in the context of the Army, signifies exactly that. It is the combination of physical fitness, endurance and experience which delivers in the battle.

The second issue is about technology adoption. The younger generation is definitely more technology-savvy, but the Army will not gain by changing its soldiers every four years. Some of the weapon systems are so complex that the jawans need a fairly long time to learn to exploit them and gain confidence.

Agnipath will help the government save on its pension bill. However, the other two arguments put up in support of Agnipath do not stand scrutiny against past experience.

The government has also decided to do away with caste-based regiments in the Army. Our experience with the all-India regiments has been as good. At the same time, we need to appreciate that regimentation in a mixed unit is a function of long service in the unit. Therefore, there is a direct link between the changes proposed by government. Strong regimentation, be it through the caste bond or long service together, is one of the reasons why the Army units can take on much heavier casualties, as compared to most western armies.
Isnt that what the 25% of the people who become permanent meant to achieve. Instead of person join at 20 with no mass, now we have folks who joined at 17.5 and 2 yrs they have become much fitter to join the fauj. I am not sure seems general sahab is giving logic for sake of it. I am seeing most people who are against are generals who seem to have not seen single war in life and retired through upward management.
Manish_P
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

maitya wrote:...
Answering my own post, some data:

Type..........................................Count
----------------------------------------------------
Demobilised (Available/Year)..........46,000
Absorbed in Armed Forced (25%).......11,500
Vol Step Away (assumed 10%)............4,600
------------------------------------------------------
Effective avail. for absorption..........29,900
------------------------------------------------------

Avg Annual Intake (Entry Level or GD Constable only)
CAPF........................................25,000**
Delhi Police.................................6,000
State Armed Police forces...............18,000*
------------------------------------------------------
Available for General Public .......... 19,100
(after full absorption of de-mobilised Agneevers)
...
Thanks for adding the analytical element to the debate. Data is god - or so the saying goes..

I see some Vets on SM being supportive of the scheme but insisting that it be first backed by a law (for reservation).
One Vet shared this
(Disclaimer - not aware of the genuineness/accuracy)

Image
ks_sachin
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Rampy wrote: Isnt that what the 25% of the people who become permanent meant to achieve. Instead of person join at 20 with no mass, now we have folks who joined at 17.5 and 2 yrs they have become much fitter to join the fauj. I am not sure seems general sahab is giving logic for sake of it. I am seeing most people who are against are generals who seem to have not seen single war in life and retired through upward management.
Some of the generals have also not seen wars boss. What Lahori logic is this. Learn to understand where they r coming from. The army is a very traditional institution and change is slow so some of the commentary reflects that. But they r legitimate concerns and fullness of time will tell us how justified they were.

Plus even now boys come in at 17 or 18.

With Agniveer they will come in at the same age but will only have 6 months of training before they join their unit. They won’t join after 2 years to attain some level of fitness - where did you get that idea?

Please speak to a CO of a bn or Armd or arty regt as to what happens to the boys when then join freshers.
maitya
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Manish_P wrote:
maitya wrote:...
Answering my own post, some data:
<snip>
Available for General Public .......... 19,100
(after full absorption of de-mobilised Agneevers)
...
<snip>
I see some Vets on SM being supportive of the scheme but insisting that it be first backed by a law (for reservation).
Isn't that what I said above - a law is required to mandate "first right to reject" by the to-be-demobilised Agniveers for all the yearly entry-level postions in CAPF/State Armed Police forces etc, before they are opened to general public.

And just to re-iterate, before somebody starts shouting about employment-opportunity in States being reduced etc, the operative part was in "special" police force of states (as opposed to employment in regular State police force).
And to actually make it mandatory for the states to abide-by, a constitutional amendment has to be made for this law (Internal Security is a State Subject etc, not even in concurent list etc).

But for any of that to happen some amount of seriousness has to be attached to this whole aspect first - and not implement via some executive action.
(and yes, these steps are allowed via executive actions, nobody denied it actually - but there are multiple instances where legislative actions were executed even if an executive action like this could have sufficed - but those are for diff threads and bandwidth availability etc).
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