Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

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ramana
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thanks. These two maps tell a story about the protests different than the op-eds.
The dots show where the protests occurred.
Correlate to how many soldiers per 10 lakh are contributed to the military.
Except for HP, Harayana, and Rajsthan, the protests are not against the program but politically motivated.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

I saw the interview the general was giving He didn't even want to discuss money gains made by the government and was saying leave it out of the equation. He indicated that the scheme would attract the cream of young. Which, I think is so false based. Sometimes, I think the kind of weaponry being bought is a curse. What is the point on getting weaponry when we cannot even hold on to our values? We should not even get our hands on them. From a populous stature, government has become completely capitalistic and should now be gone.

I mean questioning the opposition (Rahul Gandhi) while his mother is in hospital. Would Indira Gandhi have really wanted this for her grand children to go through?

Also, coming back into this discussion....here are my points.

1. Government giving false and flimzy incentives to quieten the unrest.
2. Young guys join armed forces to live a life of adventure and develop a way of living, backed by something they realize they may have to end up giving their life. If you tell them that your period for this is only 4 years, then what a transient experience and outlook this turns out to be for them. They dont develop opportunities to mature their thinking and potential. They dont mature enough in values that the military establishment teaches them to.

This scheme is just wrong and should be scrapoed.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

viveks, disagreement is fine in democracy. Peaceful protests are also fine. Violent protests and destruction of public property is not.

Agnipath is not a mandatory scheme. The armed forces are still voluntary. If you want to serve, this is an option to consider. That’s all.

And by the way, if Indira Gandhi did not want this for her grandchildren, they have the option of not being in politics. That too, like Agnipath, is also voluntary :)

Your past couple of posts are devoid of logic. Please know the facts before you post.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

As much as would like ...I would like to share chicken kababs with you discussing these things. If the lord thinks in-different, there is nothing I can do about it, just express my thoughts and feelings and not advocate hostile tendencies....but being ....somebody ...from my side of life....these are ways the things stand to me.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your facts.

Please don’t make up stuff.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

===gibberish post deleted ===
Last edited by suryag on 19 Jun 2022 08:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Gibberish post, user warned
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

First off, please use spell check to go through your posts.

Secondly, please edit your posts for grammer.

Thirdly, focusing on past leaders is precisely the problem in India. And it is folks like yourself that continue to nurture that problem. No one (not past leaders or even present ones) is bigger than the country. The country is always bigger than any one individual. If that concept is hard for you to fathom, then this is the wrong forum for you.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Eligibility Criteria for Recruitment As Agniveer.

Image
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

MUST WATCH VIDEO. CLICK ON LINK BELOW.

https://twitter.com/kakar_harsha/status ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Protests in India are mostly funded and stage managed. These are Agnipath protestors who have no idea why they are protesting. Why does it happen so frequently. It needs investigation
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Agnipath has many issues requiring deeper thought, starting with the term 'Agniveer.' Why a different 'class' of soldiers when you expect them to pay the supreme sacrifice like 'normal' soldiers? Why a new insignia? My OpEd.

Image
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Deans »

chetak wrote:
ramana wrote:Chetak please post that map.

Image
If only Jammu is included, I suspect its number will be in the top 3.
The economies of HP, UP, Jammu & Sikkim depend on Fauji salaries and pensions,
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

I am sorry Mods this maybe out of kilt for this thread.
These riots are getting more violent with public property destruction.
What I would like to know is were there any particular types of rakes targeted??
Vande Bharath, Rajdhani etc!!
Also can a country the size of India have something like National Guard for protection of public life and property under the aegis of the Home Ministry to stop these violent protest
This type of wanton destruction of property cannot go on ad nauseum
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Rsatchi wrote:I am sorry Mods this maybe out of kilt for this thread.
These riots are getting more violent with public property destruction.
What I would like to know is were there any particular types of rakes targeted??
Vande Bharath, Rajdhani etc!!
Also can a country the size of India have something like National Guard for protection of public life and property under the aegis of the Home Ministry to stop these violent protest
This type of wanton destruction of property cannot go on ad nauseum
hearing that many LHB coaches costing 2.0 crores each were set alight but OTOH, there may not be a discernable pattern to it

BTW, the power car which houses a generator costs about 3 crores
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Zynda »

There is a dedicated wing of CRPF called Rapid Action Force (RAF) under aegis of HM for riot control. As to why they have not been deployed is anybody guess...I may be wrong here but I think states should officially request Centre's help before it can dispatch RAF or similar forces.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Zynda »

Karan M wrote:Modi admin's reliance on the chalta-hain babu crowd and their inability to fix the glaring gaps seen is their biggest weakness.
Would it be not possible to involve the private sector for research, policy formation & tweaking the same instead on relying Babus...private sector can also help with populace sentiments about particular reforms...
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

The protests are wrong but let’s not make that the focus and loose sight of the fact that the scheme has too many holes and has been introduced in a manner that seems unfair.
There should be some heads rolling for the formulation and implementation of this.
The Armed forces are not a place for point scoring and politics and a demonstration of political arrogance.
The quality of the Armed Forces leadership is increasingly becoming a question in my mind.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

What are the employment opportunities available for ordinary recruits post leaving the service?

If the current system is of employment of retired Jawan is sufficient. Then how do people know that it will fail in this scheme?

If loop holes exist, they don't necessarily have to be filled on day one. When the government has 4 years to decide how to handle post retirement careers of the men.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Besides, I am more concerned about the lack of actions taken by the different chief ministers in bringing private investment to respective states.

If the chief ministers were doing their respective jobs. This would not have resulted in the mess, that it has.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

The scheme is very good, but it should have been implemented from next year. The recruitment already in process should have been allowed to be completed rather than being terminated midway, with candidates who already cleared physicals and medical now left holding a lemon. It should have been called Short Service Commission for soldiers. Total duration should have been five years, including training. A quota in paramilitary forces should have been announced in advance, not as an afterthought. The Agniveer quota should be 20% (not 10%) in all para-military forces. The lumpsum amount at the end of service should be increased to 20 lakhs. (This amount would be enough to take care of their life's obligations -- getting married themselves, getting sisters married, build a pucca house, or start a shop somewhere.)

Free medical facilities for all Agniveers (and immediately family) should continue for 10 years after leaving service, provided they agree to remain in reserve for this period and can be called upon anytime for service in case of war. This should be enough to pacify students -- anyone still protesting should be dealt ruthlessly.
Last edited by sanjayc on 19 Jun 2022 16:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

^^ exactly Sanjayji
Just watched parts of the triservice presser
If the discussion process on for nearly two years I am amazed at the thought process clarity possible opportunities post decommissioning both at the Services level and Babudom
Both have to cop for a distinct lack of foresight
All looks like tag on after being caught with proverbial pants down
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Sanjay, what you are saying may appear reasonable for your point of view. But I am opposed to them due to several reasons.

1) That it should be for 5 years. The military had decided that 4 years was good. Why do you think that the decision of 4 years is bad. Especially when most armies in the past had functioned well with a conscription of just 2 years.

2) the quota for paramilitary being 20%. A rhetorical question can be asked, why not 100% qouta.

3) same for lump sum compensation at the end of the service. Why not 30 lakhs.

4) WRT, medical services for 10 years. This appears to be most reasonable point that has been made. But, I have to ask, if the objective of the scheme is to reduce the welfare burden of the force. Then providing this facility for as long as you are proposing is defeating the purpose of the scheme.

Now, don't get me wrong. A man injured in the line of duty should be assisted by the state in every way so that he is able to transition in to civilian life and is able to live his life in a productive manner for the remainder of his life. It will have positive effects on the moral of the force as well.

My fundamental issue is the lack of accountability of the 30 odd chief minister in India. Many of them are not doing anything to develop their respective states to reduce the stress on Sarkari Naukri.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush with due respect let’s focus on the new policy.
Investment by states is not germane to whether this policy will work or not.
Let’s face it the track record of the Forces/MOD/ or the successive governments had been shit.
We have emergency commission in the 60. Lot of these people fought with distinction in 1962 and even 1965. Read up on what happened to these folks after.
Look at treatment of SSC officers.
Look at the appeals filed by the MOD against vets etc.

Trust factor zilch!!!!

The impact of this is on a CO who leads the tip of the spear so stop thinking of this as something that can be put off. A paltan is like a family and a Co and his wife like a king and queen. The CO and company commanders involvement in all aspects of a soldiers life cannot be underestimated.

Rakesh asked a question about esprit de corps and ethos. Let me narrate a story

In 1987 our Bn was posted out of 86 Brigade to go to Demchok. Before the move Dad and a few officers including our family decided on a trip to Palampur.
When we reached there news had spread that 2 Dogra ka CO Sahab is in town. Any 2 Dogra Jawans or JCO who had served with or was serving and on leave from 2 Dogra was on the phone to dad to visit the village etc. plus JCOs who had mentored my dad when he was a young 2nd Lt in 1966 want to speak to him. Plus some who knew my grandfather as he commanded the same Bn. As a youngster these JCOs were called Sahab by a young 2nd alt. Even today a SM or senior JCOs are called Sahab by officers!!!

Point I am trying to make is that in the cloistered env of an inf bn or Armd Bn the bonds form so deep that anfthing that distracts a Jawans or young officer is a problem for the CO to solve. COs and their wives also get involved in match making!!! Such is a COs lot. So imagine a Company Commanders lot?
Last edited by ks_sachin on 19 Jun 2022 16:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Rsatchi wrote:^^ exactly Sanjayji
Just watched parts of the triservice presser
If the discussion process on for nearly two years I am amazed at the thought process clarity possible opportunities post decommissioning both at the Services level and Babudom
Both have to cop for a distinct lack of foresight
All looks like tag on after being caught with proverbial pants down
Why are we so sure that the bold section was not just going to be a repeat of what is available for the men taken through regular intake, by a different name?

Perhaps, the planners did not think that people are so stupid and emotional that they will start rioting and burning trains. Without finding out the facts of the scheme.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ks_sachin wrote:Pratyush with due respect let’s focus on the new policy.
Investment by states is not germane to whether this policy will work or not.
Let’s face it the track record of the Forces/MOD/ or the successive governments had been shit.
We have emergency commission in the 60. Lot of these people fought with distinction in 1962 and even 1965. Read up on what happened to these folks after.
Look at treatment of SSC officers.
Look at the appeals filed by the MOD against vets etc.

Trust factor zilch!!!!

The impact of this is on a CO who leads the tip of the spear so stop thinking of this as something that can be put off. A paltan is like a family and a Co and his wife like a king and queen. The CO and company commanders involvement in all aspects of a soldiers life cannot be underestimated.

Rakesh asked a question about esprit de corps and ethos. Let me narrate a story

In 1987 our Bn was posted out of 86 Brigade to go to Demchok. Before the move Dad and a few officers including our family decided on a trip to Palampur.
When we reached there news had spread that 2 Dogra ka CO Sahan is in town. Any 2 Dogra Jawans or JCO who had served with or was serving and on leave from 2 Dogra was on the phone to dad to visit the village etc. plus JCOs who had mentored my dad when he was a young 2nd Lt in 1966 want to speak to him. Plus some who knew my grandfather as he commanded the same Bn.

Point I am trying to make is that in the cloistered env of an inf bn or Armd Bn the bonds form so deep that anfthing that distracts a Jawans or young officer is a problem for the CO to solve. COs and their wives also get involved in match making!!! Such is a COs lot. So imagine a Company Commanders lot?
Is the army saying that CO should not be doing any of the things you have discribed in your post above? If not then why focus on that.

WRT, the treatment of pervious SSC intake 60 years ago. If the terms of service were clearly defined and adhered to. Then I don't have any issues.

But if the TOS said, A will be done and X was done instead. Then there is a problem.

Lastly, i am hearing about esprit de corps bandied about.

It's a function of leadership of the force to make sure that men under command are taken care off.

The Israelis don't have any issues with a 2 years of compulsory service. Nor do the Swiss.

The PRC used to have a conscript force not too long ago.

So was did the US and most countries of NATO.

Nearly all of them managed to do OK in terms of building and preserving esprit de corps. So why will Indian armed forces be any different?
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

It’s not saying it but that is the implication I see. It is already happening.

Career and family concerns of a Agniveer youngster will become an issue for the CO to address.

Sadly our generals have also forgotten what life in a frontline unit is looks like.

Now this is not a hypothetical it is a reality. COs are becoming more Admin Managers that Ops Heads

Note - emergency commission in the 60s is diff to SSC.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

Pratyushji
Sorry if that’s the case
Why so many add ins being tagged along every day
It’s just Not staged properly
Some how Modi sarkar doesn’t believe in winning perception battle
Just see the response to burying the farm bill report
It’s just announcement and then firefighting
And if baboos are to be blamed no head rolls for misdemeanour do they
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Rsatchi wrote:Pratyushji
Sorry if that’s the case
Why so many add ins being tagged along every day

It’s just Not staged properly
Some how Modi sarkar doesn’t believe in winning perception battle
Just see the response to burying the farm bill report
It’s just announcement and then firefighting
And if baboos are to be blamed no head rolls for misdemeanour do they
Because, they don't have to be defined in day one.

The policy comes first. The accomodations to the policy always follow. Because they exist as a response to the policy and not the drivers of the policy.

If widespread rioting had not taken place. Not many would have cared about how the post discharge employment opportunities shape up for the recruits.
Last edited by Pratyush on 19 Jun 2022 17:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Sachin, i hear you and understand what you are saying. But that is not an issue directly related to the matter at hand.

The senior leadership of the force has to step in and encourage leadership and intiative at all levels.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rampy »

Thakur_B wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
Then don't join.

No body ows anyone a job.
Ain't nobody risking their life and career for a 4 year contract job with an abyss staring at the end of the career. Nobody owes anyone their life.

Especially when the employer is penny pinching with 4 years of service so they can avoid paying gratuity for 5 years or more of service.

IMO some basic changes would have made the scheme very attractive.
- increased duration of service, say 7 years.
- Mandatory tradesman training / technical diploma (wireman, fitters, electronics / field communications, mechanics, basic programming, civil construction), some during the duration of service and some at the end.
- College reservations with fees waiver (like the US GI Bill)
- Reservation in government jobs, especially police, CAPFs etc. Clerical jobs in Govt., PSB, Insurance etc. would also be good.

Make them employable after their service. Just don't give them a golden handshake and leave them hanging. Otherwise all you would have is unemployed youth with weapons training, no goal in life and nothing to lose.
Military service is not 'Manush Palan Vibhag" to give fat salaries and pension, if thats the motivation go join Bihar state government drinking chai and having pan. If you have it in you then you join army. Rtd Major Mod Shah was saying in an interview SSC person got Ashok chakra, he did not think that it's contractual so why to bother to take the risk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navdeep_S ... ok_Chakra)
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Agnipath will not be rolled back: Lt Gen Anil Puri
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

Just saw a snapshot of BJP MP saying that Angeeveer would get security jobs after 4 years of service in the army and he would have earned 12 lakh rupees in that time.

My points.

1. Reducing the dignity of serving in the army to a mere political party security guard.
2. The BJP MP is more concerned about the 12 lakhs of rupees earned by the Agneeveer than his own dignity. This is really a capitalistic move and not a good thing by the government.

I mean ...be it civilian dignity or even dignity of a soldier....people dont even know how to respect it.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

viveks wrote:Just saw a snapshot of BJP MP saying that Angeeveer would get security jobs after 4 years of service in the army and he would have earned 12 lakh rupees in that time.

My points.

1. Reducing the dignity of serving in the army to a mere political party security guard.
2. The BJP MP is more concerned about the 12 lakhs of rupees earned by the Agneeveer than his own dignity. This is really a capitalistic move and not a good thing by the government.


I mean ...be it civilian dignity or even dignity of a soldier....people dont even know how to respect it.
The section in bold is your interpretation of what the MP is saying.

The most annoying aspect of this whole affair is the emotional hyperventilation of immature mind's. Who are hearing things that are not being said. Or are reading things that are not written in the government document.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by SriKumar »

After all the train burnings involving fire (=Agni), the name Agniveer and Agnipath might come to be associated with something else.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

viveks wrote:Just saw a snapshot of BJP MP saying that Angeeveer would get security jobs after 4 years of service in the army and he would have earned 12 lakh rupees in that time.

My points.

1. Reducing the dignity of serving in the army to a mere political party security guard.

2. The BJP MP is more concerned about the 12 lakhs of rupees earned by the Agneeveer than his own dignity. This is really a capitalistic move and not a good thing by the government.

I mean ...be it civilian dignity or even dignity of a soldier....people dont even know how to respect it.
So that 4 years down the line an IA soldier can unironically and apolitically say "main bhi chowkidar" :rotfl:
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

I swear. And people here resort to personal attacks and spell check as alibi to support their arguments. Really yaar....first and foremost things comes the dignity of a profession and an outlook. If one tries to measure such things with money, then God help us.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Rampy wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Ain't nobody risking their life and career for a 4 year contract job with an abyss staring at the end of the career. Nobody owes anyone their life.

Especially when the employer is penny pinching with 4 years of service so they can avoid paying gratuity for 5 years or more of service.

IMO some basic changes would have made the scheme very attractive.
- increased duration of service, say 7 years.
- Mandatory tradesman training / technical diploma (wireman, fitters, electronics / field communications, mechanics, basic programming, civil construction), some during the duration of service and some at the end.
- College reservations with fees waiver (like the US GI Bill)
- Reservation in government jobs, especially police, CAPFs etc. Clerical jobs in Govt., PSB, Insurance etc. would also be good.

Make them employable after their service. Just don't give them a golden handshake and leave them hanging. Otherwise all you would have is unemployed youth with weapons training, no goal in life and nothing to lose.
Military service is not 'Manush Palan Vibhag" to give fat salaries and pension, if thats the motivation go join Bihar state government drinking chai and having pan. If you have it in you then you join army. Rtd Major Mod Shah was saying in an interview SSC person got Ashok chakra, he did not think that it's contractual so why to bother to take the risk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navdeep_S ... ok_Chakra)
If that is the case why not pay them central government CLC defined minimum wage for unskilled labour, label it Pradhan Mantri Suraksha Rozgar Yojana and call it a day.
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

viveks wrote:Just saw a snapshot of BJP MP saying that Angeeveer would get security jobs after 4 years of service in the army and he would have earned 12 lakh rupees in that time.

My points.

1. Reducing the dignity of serving in the army to a mere political party security guard.
2. The BJP MP is more concerned about the 12 lakhs of rupees earned by the Agneeveer than his own dignity. This is really a capitalistic move and not a good thing by the government.

I mean ...be it civilian dignity or even dignity of a soldier....people dont even know how to respect it.
What is your hostility to a "capitalist move" ? Would you rather that the government made a communist move?
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by vijayk »

1. Will these agniveers have combat duty in these 4 years?
2. A friend who was in Air Force is worried some of them who did not make it being recruited for espionage. He says "I served with IB during Kargil as intelligence tenure and seen how vulnerable we are". How will we protect that?
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Re: Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

sanjayc wrote:What is your hostility to a "capitalist move" ? Would you rather that the government made a communist move?
Who said anything about a communist move? Do you work for the CIA? Are you un-necessarily trying to harass and bother me? Next thing you will say I am trying to advocate facism, socialism....then the last but not the least advocate Aryan beliefs.

Do you not believe in non-aligned movement of nations? I cant believe I am having this conversation. People want to sub-due internet free speech and give me warnings here but when you watch the news and young fresh blood out there is feeling, then you will realize.

We defended Kargil successfully without any great Technology that you so willing are seeing nothing but else. What about the lives of people who have less mental aptitude and the only thing in their minds is to get into the armed forces and stick around.
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