Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

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MeshaVishwas
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by MeshaVishwas »

mody wrote:What's the difference between the QRSAM and VLSRSAM? Both are supposed to have a very quick reaction time. The VL-SRSAM is meant for the Navy and the Airforce, whereas the QRSAM is meant for the army. Primarily the VLSRSAM is to be used from static positions from the vertical launcher or from naval ships from a vertical launcher. Both missiles are supposed to have a fast acceleration, as the VLSRSAM is expected to tackle sea skimming anti-ship missiles.
We know that the VLSRSAM is based on the Astra missile. Is the basic QRSAM missile also based on the Astra missile? From the pictures released so far, it doesn't seem to have the smokeless propellant like the Astra. The seeker for both the missiles could be similar.

The main difference between the two systems could be the radar, as for QRSAM it needs to be a mobile unit, but the basic missiles could probably be the same or almost the same. However, from the photos this doesn't seem to be the case.
Asked and answered.
VLSRSAM takes on much scarier targets.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

MeshaVishwas wrote:
mody wrote:What's the difference between the QRSAM and VLSRSAM? Both are supposed to have a very quick reaction time. The VL-SRSAM is meant for the Navy and the Airforce, whereas the QRSAM is meant for the army. Primarily the VLSRSAM is to be used from static positions from the vertical launcher or from naval ships from a vertical launcher. Both missiles are supposed to have a fast acceleration, as the VLSRSAM is expected to tackle sea skimming anti-ship missiles.
We know that the VLSRSAM is based on the Astra missile. Is the basic QRSAM missile also based on the Astra missile? From the pictures released so far, it doesn't seem to have the smokeless propellant like the Astra. The seeker for both the missiles could be similar.

The main difference between the two systems could be the radar, as for QRSAM it needs to be a mobile unit, but the basic missiles could probably be the same or almost the same. However, from the photos this doesn't seem to be the case.
Asked and answered.
VLSRSAM takes on much scarier targets.
What I don't understand though, why not have the same basic missile for both the systems? The basic missile of the VLSRSAM can be also fired from an inclined launcher. If both the systems had the same missile the economies of scale, would bring down the cost. Also considering that the basic missile of the VLSRSAM is same as the Astra, the cost would go down further.

Is there anything that the QRSAM can do, that the VLSRSAM cannot? The QRSAM is also supposed to tackle low flying cruise missiles as well.

Cost wouldn't really be a concern, as it seems unlikely that the QRSAM missile might be significantly cheaper than the VLSRSAM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nits »

Another Hit job at Brahmos by comparing its cost with Tomahawk; see last line in article

REVEALED: How Much New BrahMos Missiles Cost

Ajai Shukla
For the first time, evidence from the ministry of defence reveals that the latest and most advanced variant of one of India's most closely-guarded weapon systems -- the indigenous, dual-role, extended-range BrahMos cruise missile -- works out to about Rs 34 crore/Rs 340 million ($4.85 million) each.

On Thursday, September 22, the MoD announced that the Indian Navy had ordered the ship-borne version of the supersonic BrahMos 'at an overall approximate cost of Rs 1,700 crore (Rs 17 billion) under the Buy-Indian category'.

Approximately Rs 200 crore (Rs 2 billion) would be spent on each destroyer's missile launchers, command centre, and radar, reveal sources in BrahMos Aerospace (BAPL) -- the Indian-Russian joint venture that builds the BrahMos missile. That leaves about Rs 1,300 crore (Rs 13 billion) for 38 BrahMos missiles, putting the cost of each missile at about Rs 34 crore/Rs 340 million ($4.85 million).

This is significantly higher than earlier estimations that the army and navy paid about $3.2 million-$3.5 million for each of their BrahMos missiles. However, those earlier missile variants had ranges of just 295 km, while INS Visakhapatnam and INS Mormugao will be armed with longer-range missiles that can strike targets out to 400 km.

While the BrahMos ALCM is the lightest and the shortest, it is not the cheapest. In October 2012, the Union Cabinet allocated $1.1 billion to the IAF for acquiring 200 BrahMos ALCMs. That puts the unit cost of the BrahMos ALCM at $5.5 million.

One reason for the higher cost is that each BrahMos ALCM functions autonomously in its launch and command and control functions, since it would be launched several hundred kilometres from base, out of range of the regular BrahMos command and control centre.

Each ALCM launcher has its own command centre, a 'peripheral control device', which checks the health of the missile before it leaves the launcher.

Paradoxically, the BrahMos ALCM effectively has the longest range of all the variants: Over 1,000 km. It is carried for several hundred kilometres by the Sukhoi-30MKI.

After it is released from the fighter, it can travel another 300-400 km, under the missile's own propulsion system.

India has been promoting the sale of the BrahMos missile system to partner countries in the Indo-Pacific, such as Vietnam. However only the Philippines has actually inked a contract for the BrahMos: A $375 million deal for the anti-ship variant of the BrahMos.

With the Pentagon's expenditure figures placing the cost of the latest variant of the US Tomahawk missile at below $2 million, the cost of the BrahMos might just be too much.
Last edited by ramana on 27 Sep 2022 01:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added writer name
Prasad
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prasad »

Comparing a long-range subsonic turbofan-powered missile to a lower ranged supersonic ramjet-powered missile is a bit too much :roll:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

nits wrote:Another Hit job at Brahmos by comparing its cost with Tomahawk; see last line in article

REVEALED: How Much New BrahMos Missiles Cost

apples and oranges !! . its not journalism ., but just a narrative . Well they can take it and shove it somewhere else
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by MeshaVishwas »

mody wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:
Asked and answered.
VLSRSAM takes on much scarier targets.
What I don't understand though, why not have the same basic missile for both the systems? The basic missile of the VLSRSAM can be also fired from an inclined launcher. If both the systems had the same missile the economies of scale, would bring down the cost. Also considering that the basic missile of the VLSRSAM is same as the Astra, the cost would go down further.

Is there anything that the QRSAM can do, that the VLSRSAM cannot? The QRSAM is also supposed to tackle low flying cruise missiles as well.

Cost wouldn't really be a concern, as it seems unlikely that the QRSAM missile might be significantly cheaper than the VLSRSAM.
From Karan and Indranil's info from some time byaak, QRSAM&VLSRSAM share key items from the Astra


Some specification on the radar and missile:
Image

Image
targets are bigger sized and slower in general

Maybe the Akash is the specialist cruise missile assasin in the Army AD?(Given how the primary radar is the 3DCAR-Akash and Revathi-VLSRSAM)

Karan can probably explain better.

Edit:Image credits to Trishul(http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rupesh »

kit wrote:
nits wrote:Another Hit job at Brahmos by comparing its cost with Tomahawk; see last line in article

REVEALED: How Much New BrahMos Missiles Cost

apples and oranges !! . its not journalism ., but just a narrative . Well they can take it and shove it somewhere else
For comparison, we paid 170 million for 24 harpoon block 2. Brahmos is dirt cheap when compared to harpoon.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Dilbu »

I thought it was usual clueless DDM but when it comes from someone like Ajai Shukla who is retired IA then it is intentional.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

kit wrote:
nits wrote:Another Hit job at Brahmos by comparing its cost with Tomahawk; see last line in article
REVEALED: How Much New BrahMos Missiles Cost
apples and oranges !! . its not journalism ., but just a narrative . Well they can take it and shove it somewhere else
It is journalism
Yellow Journlism
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

YES!!!!!!

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/157 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> BREAKING: India’s @DRDO_India test-fires new indigenous VSHORADS (very short range air defence system) from the east coast. The shoulder fired system is to meet a large unmet requirement that was to be met by foreign sources but didn’t take off.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by andy B »



BC finally! :twisted: been waiting for this for a very long time!!

Vid says dual thrust solid motor. You can see vanes aft the mid section before the fibs and nozzle.

Will be very interesting to see further details. In the test it's already seems to be manoeuvring towards a target or an electronic point of impact. This doesn't seem to be a first flight test system probably is fairly matured already!

Any ideas on the seeker....if this is up and running then we may see some rapid progress on IR Astra and CCM as well. Fingers crossed.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

No new missile test is complete without inputs from BRF's very own IR.

Read and weep all you import pasand folks :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... AwsD-IYJow ---> This is a very interesting design. A ejector motor. And then dual-pulse rocket motor in Nag configuration: i.e. launch and sustain motors. Aerospike and wings for drag reduction. It will have range! Vehicle mounted, ship mounted and heli mounted versions to follow.

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> It is also evidence that of why one cannot attach delays in developmental process of first generation programs of DRDO to the present scenario. Those days have passed, this is a new age.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... AwsD-IYJow ---> In missile development, DRDO is a behemoth now. Very few places in in the world (if any) have 20 kg VSHORADS to 60,000 kg ICBMs under one roof. The experience and the sheer number of parts that they can just mix and match is just H-U-G-E.

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> Missile system test fired 6 months before its fabrication was due. Now people will have to get really creative to complain.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Mark99xm/status/157 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> Ought to be smokeless.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... AwsD-IYJow ---> The sustainer most probably is. Notice that the booster for Nag is smokeless. But for VSHORADS they need as fast an acceleration as possible. This booster motor achieves that. The 4 nozzles provide TVC capabilities.

https://twitter.com/Mark99xm/status/157 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> I mean, you already have a big column of smoke rising high in the air pointing right at the launch team.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... AwsD-IYJow ---> It's a trade-off between effectiveness of the missile vs. stealth. SHORADs exchange is at very close range. Typically a few kms. Reaction time measured in seconds. Both parties are typically in close visual range of each other.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... AwsD-IYJow ---> Mistral and Starstreak made the same tradeoff. RBS70 went the other way.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kakarat »

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1862617

Successful Flight Tests of Very Short Range Air Defence System (VSHORADS) Missile by DRDO
Posted On: 27 SEP 2022 6:20PM by PIB Delhi

DRDO conducted two successful test flight of Very Short Range Air Defence System (VSHORADS) missile on 27 Sep 2022 from a ground based portable launcher at the Integrated Test Range, Chandipur, off the coast of Odisha. VSHORADS is a Man Portable Air Defence System (MANPAD) designed and developed indigenously by DRDO’s Research Centre Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad in collaboration with other DRDO laboratories and Indian Industry Partners.

VSHORADS missile incorporates many novel technologies including miniaturized Reaction Control System (RCS) and integrated avionics, which have been successfully proven during the tests. The missile, meant for neutralizing low altitude aerial threats at short ranges is propelled by a dual thrust solid motor. The design of the missile including launcher has been highly optimized to ensure easy portability. Both the flight tests have completely met the mission objectives.

Hon’ble Raksha Mantri, Shri Rajnath Singh complimented and appreciated the efforts of DRDO and industry partners and said that this new missile equipped with modern technologies will give further technological boost to the Armed Forces. Secretary DDR&D and Chairman DRDO congratulated the entire VSHORADS team for this tremendous success.

Image
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by arvin »

Finally we have our own MANPAD. Ideally should have been realised as part of IGMDP being so basic and necessary. At 20 kg seems to be on heavier side. Looks like it will exist along with Igla for now. I could be wrong, seeker seems to be old school type and not IIR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

arvin wrote:Finally we have our own MANPAD. Ideally should have been realised as part of IGMDP being so basic and necessary. At 20 kg seems to be on heavier side. Looks like it will exist along with Igla for now. I could be wrong, seeker seems to be old school type and not IIR.
https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... AwsD-IYJow ---> Igla and Mistral/RBS70 are not in the same class. The latter is heavier and is generally fired from a tripod from a sitting position. DRDO's design seems to be in the same class.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... AwsD-IYJow ---> Missile weight around 20 kg. Missile plus launcher tube around 25 kg. Similar to Mistral.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... ljS7J0r_gg ---> Trade-off between launch weight and missiles effectiveness. Igla/Stinger chose one way and Mistral/RBS70/Starstreak/VSHORADS chose the other.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

They have adopted the proven Nag type propulsion layout. The booster is venting from those side nozzles which are flush with the fuselage (less drag I'd presume) and the sustainer will probably kick in from the main nozzle below. This is probably what they mean by dual thrust. If the sustainer itself is dual pulse, that would be something but very unlikely for a short range system. The nose has an aerospike, again for drag i presume, and will probably have a seeker designed around it (the aerospike comes from the middle). Or perhaps its temporary. Heavy duty missile, meant for semi-static deployment. The launcher is already fairly developed (can see in the image) and a fire control box appears to be placed on it. Cool system, as usual I expect IA may crib about weight, size but hopefully IAF picks it up in substantial number. This is a performance oriented system.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Dilbu wrote:I thought it was usual clueless DDM but when it comes from someone like Ajai Shukla who is retired IA then it is intentional.
It's good idea to post authors name. Reduces needless heartburn.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

KaranM, what is the approximate ratio of the aerospike dish to Missile Body diameter? 0.2 or less?
It could be a antenna for guidance. And dravreduction is secondary?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Haridas »

Kakarat wrote:https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1862617

Successful Flight Tests of Very Short Range Air Defence System (VSHORADS) Missile by DRDO

VSHORADS missile incorporates many novel technologies including miniaturized Reaction Control System (RCS) and integrated avionics, which have been successfully proven during the tests.
The most Important operative word highlighted. Congratulations !! Realization of miniaturized RCS . That will make the missile most deadly.

Also promising future use in CRAM missile.

Also notice the folding wing tips that unfurl in flight !

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter ... and_mortar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

Ashokk wrote:Area warning 23 - 25 September 2022
#Areawarning #India issues a notification for the launch of an experimental flight vehicle
Launch Window | 23 - 25 September 2022
Image
No further news ???
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Any weather issues in Bay of Bengal?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Cyrano »

That MANPad looks HUGE, will need a Bahubali to carry, lift and fire it.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Gyan »

Most probably it will be fired from a tripod and not off the shoulder
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by titash »

Cyrano wrote:That MANPad looks HUGE, will need a Bahubali to carry, lift and fire it.
Remember that not all air attacks will be standoff using MRCAs. Its simply too expensive for mobile & lightly defended targets, and helicopters/shturmoviks using strafing/rockets/bombs still have a huge role for attacking convoys, non-permanent forward bases, military camps, etc.

Its not a MANPADS, officially a VSHORADS. Will be mounted on:
1) static mounts - protection for non-permanent forward bases, military camps
2) light 4 wheeled vehicles such as jeeps/trucks - protection for moving vehicle convoys
3) landing craft/minesweepers - last ditch protection in contested areas, similar to the SA-N-5
4) possibly submarine launched anti-helicopter versions - will be a reality in the next 10 years
5) replace Mistral in our 100s of LCH/Rudra/UAVs - for anti UAV missions - again this will be the norm in the next 5-10 years
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

MeshaVishwas wrote:targets are bigger sized and slower in general

Maybe the Akash is the specialist cruise missile assasin in the Army AD?(Given how the primary radar is the 3DCAR-Akash and Revathi-VLSRSAM)

Karan can probably explain better.

Edit:Image credits to Trishul(http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/)
QRSAM can take on a bulk of targets, small and fast/slow, big and fast/slow etc. It's really behind Akash in one area - that is the overall altitude of engagement. QRSAM is designed for low-altitude targets primarily.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

Cyrano wrote:That MANPad looks HUGE, will need a Bahubali to carry, lift and fire it.
Some of it is perspective, making the missile look bigger than it is.

It's deployment architecture will be similar to this system.

https://en.missilery.info/missile/mistral
Or this

https://www.armyrecognition.com/british ... cture.html

Might be marginally bigger etc but then again DRDO is likely looking to optimize performance. Of course, whether IA accepts their proposal is a whole different ballgame. Very cynical of their methods of late. Might stand a better chance with IAF.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Dilbu »

Tri-services Missile Command on anvil as stand-off weapons era dawns
In the era of stand-off weapons, the Narendra Modi government is considering setting up of a tri-services missile/rocket command on the lines of the space and the cyber command as the first steps towards military theatre commands.

The proposed missile command will be responsible for deployment of missile and rocket regiments against any hostile adversary and will be manned by commanders of the three services in rotation. This means that conventional missiles like BrahMos and Akash as well as Pinaka rockets will be placed under one command for rapid deployment against any adversary. The proposal to set up a missile command has been moved in the aftermath of the May 2020 East Ladakh stand-off with the PLA and the use of rockets and missiles in the Ukraine theatre by the Red Army.
The PLA has deployed rocket regiments in the depth areas of occupied Aksai Chin with missiles in the hinter in Tibet and Sinkiang region. The missile command will be on similar lines as the tri-services cyber command and the space command as the future wars will hardly have any contact between troops unless used for capturing enemy territory.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Why put Akash and Pinaka in the missile command.

Aakash belongs with the air defence command.

Pinaka is corp level asset. Why move it to a higher echelon?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

I think the author is mixed up. Why would Akash go to a rocket command.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Neela »

Have heard if Brahmos to Vietnam and Indonesia.
First time hearing of potential Brahmos sale to South Korea. Came up in a Sansad TV program.
What was also mentioned was that in all high value defense sales,
- services , maintainence and overhaul agreements last 30-40 years. And the till keeps ringing
- There are technical paramaters which are important but geopolitical scenario plays a big role too
- An air of confidence about Brahmos - everyone in the business knows this is an asset they want and they can have an edge for the next 10-15 years
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Karan M wrote:I think the author is mixed up. Why would Akash go to a rocket command.
Why would a Pinaka up another layer of bureaucracy when they are currently with Corps that would support an IBG?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

Yes, I think only long range conventional vectors, Pralay, Pranash, Prithvi, Brahmos, Nirbhay will go to the RF. Not Pinaka. But IA may think different and want a new structure to back up regiment of artillery in which case even Pinaka may head there.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

Generally, I would say anything with range exceeding 150 Kms should be placed under the tactical rocket forces command.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

Was this a drop test?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

I thought that Astra Mk2 was going to be ramjet powered missile?

If not, then what's the difference between the Mk1 & 2?

Is Astra Mk3 going to be ramjet?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prasad »

Mk2 - Dual Pulse (like MRSAM/NGARM)
Mk3(nomenclature not official yet) - SFDR
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Thakur_B »

Mk2 Dual pulse motor
Mk3 SFDR
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Thanks guys.
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