Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Its raining indigenous orders this week! Today orders for Brahmos Long Range coastal batteries and 2 regiments of Akash-1S were placed

Lungi dance time & huge shout-out to RM Rajnath Singh! He has walked the talk on Atmanirbhar

https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 330190345/

Meanwhile, see this Twitter thread and report by Ajit Kumar Dubey on how the IA (true to form) wanted to float a global tender for SRSAM. But in 2019, Arun Jaitley overruled it to order Akash instead. This resulted in the DRDO developing the Akash-1S seeker variant

We have so many people to thank for standing against the Chandigarh Lobby. Every report like this shows us how deep the rot goes. What's also shocking are the inflated prices: in 2023, the order for 2 regiments of Akash-1S costs only Rs 6000 Cr. In 2019, when Arun Jaitley overruled the IA, they were planning to blow away Rs 18,000 Crores on a foreign system for the same 2 regiments!

https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/1 ... 7749078018

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2017-05-28
It is learnt that three foreign vendors - Israel, Sweden and Russia - were in the race for bagging the contract for which the process was initiated in 2011, and trials were held in 2014.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

The 17 Upcoming Missiles Of India

SSridhar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote: . . .2 regiments of Akash-1S were placed
Great news. This is Akash Prime, an extended performance Akash-1S.

In May 2022, IA proposed two regiments of Akash-P. Hope these are over and above that.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Good point. I wasn't able to discern the difference between Akash-1S and Akash-Prime. Possibly the Prime (2022 testing) was based on IA feedback after Akash-1S testing (2019, which is when Jaitley veto'ed the import)

There seems to be confusion on the # of Akash regiments in the IA. The ANI report from yesterday said the new orders are for the 3rd and 4th regiment. While the Frontline report from 2022 said that the IA already had 4 regiments back then

Let me see if my math is right, because the terminology always confuses me:

1 regiment = 6 batteries = 24 launchers = 72 ready to fire missiles (3 per launcher)
So, 2 regiments would be 48 launchers = 144 missiles + replenishments, testing-rounds etc

Total # of regiments & missiles with the IA still seems to be a mystery .....

P.S: To be fair to the Army, they had sent a proposal to the MoD in Aug 2021 itself for 2 Akash-Prime regiments + 25 ALH helicopters. So, looks like the MoD babus also sat on the file for 1.5 years.

See here: https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 830154548/
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by basant »

SSridhar wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote: . . .2 regiments of Akash-1S were placed
Great news. This is Akash Prime, an extended performance Akash-1S.

In May 2022, IA proposed two regiments of Akash-P. Hope these are over and above that.
FWIW:
Saurav Jha @SJha1618

And let this be a lesson to a bunch of ***** who kept on pointing to a May 2022 news item claiming that the new regiments were already on order.
@delhidefence doesn't study military-industrial issues as a hobby.
Quote Tweet
Saurav Jha @SJha1618
So, the order for the two new Akash regiments has come through.
12:56 AM · Mar 31, 2023

Views
SSridhar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote: . . . The ANI report from yesterday said the new orders are for the 3rd and 4th regiment. While the Frontline report from 2022 said that the IA already had 4 regiments back then
Look at what basant has posted above from a very worked up Saurav Jha who seems to have bristled at those with similar confusion.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Saw that. So, the IA has only 2 regiments currently. 2 more were ordered a couple of days back. Even the 2+2 seems woefully inadequate to cover the huge area facing our 2 adversaries

IAF has inducted 8 squadrons and 7 more were ordered in 2019, to be delivered withing 3 years. I am assuming these deliveries would have also completed by now. Each squadron is 2 batteries = 8 launchers = 24 missiles. So, 15 squadrons amount to 120 launchers

By comparison, IA has inducted 48 launchers. That's 1/3rd of IAF"s numbers, which is alarmingly low because the frontage that the IA has to cover is an order of magnitude greater than that of the IAF. For the IA, the Akash is part of their offensive formation, while for the IAF, its for defense. So, a lot of mobile units are needed

Launchers are a good way to compare the IAF & IA definitions. Its also an indication of the area of battlespace covered (we can have 1000s of missiles, but the area covered depends on the # of launchers and the battery-configuration).

Approx cost per launcher & missiles = 100 Cr for the IAF, but Rs 300 Cr for the IA. I think its because the IA is ordering more missiles as replenishments
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

IA is also inducting MRSAM. The first regiment is in workup. You can't compare costs as you've done. Lot of difference in regiment vs squadron structure etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Yes. I was going to mention MRSAM as well. IAF inductions have started, while the IA's is yet to. They were still doing tests in 2022. Hope it happens soon

Given what we saw with the OSA Ak mis-firing, the IA should be eager to induct any number that can be thrown at them
Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

IA inductions have also started. Both IA & IAF inductions will pick up once local production line stabilises.

https://newsonair.com/2023/02/24/major- ... nt-raised/

Image

Misfire was with SA-6 not OSA-AK. IA should have gone IAF's route & remade them Pechora style in India with DRDO's help.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

SSridhar wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote: . . .2 regiments of Akash-1S were placed
Great news. This is Akash Prime, an extended performance Akash-1S.

In May 2022, IA proposed two regiments of Akash-P. Hope these are over and above that.
These are the same units. The IA is currently inducting a regiment of MRSAM (they ultimately want 5), around 2 regiments of QRSAM are next, followed by new AD guns and a new SP AD Gun/missile solution plus VSHORADS. Of these latter three, QRSAM and VSHORAD are farthest ahead, and QRSAM has despite media hit jobs by the execrable Pubby all but cleared trials. But GOI has already released AON for VSHORAD indicating it may also be ordered quicker than generally presumed. A local solution for a replacement to the L-70 also exists. The SP Gun Missile solution remains a mystery mapped in an enigma at this point.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by basant »

BDL receives order for Akash Weapon System for 3rd & 4th Regiments of Army Order book of the company crosses Rs 24,000 Cr mark
Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) today signed a contract for Rs 8161 Crore with the Ministry of Defence, Govt of India for production and supply of Akash Weapon System to the Indian Army. The contract, which was signed at New Delhi today is for two regiments of Indian Army. The order is to be executed in three years. Further BDL also received an order of Rs 261 Crore for CMDS for MLH Helicopters. The consolidated order book position of BDL has now reached a staggering figure of Rs 24,021 crore approx. with the signing of this new contract.

Commodore Siddharth Mishra (Retd), Chairman and Managing Director, BDL stated that signing of the new contract will give a major boost to the Akash programme and both, BDL and its supply chain partners, are geared up to meet the production demands of the Weapon System. In addition to the domestic market, the Akash Weapon System is also being offered for export to friendly foreign countries.

The financial year, 2022-23, has been an eventful year for the Company with new orders received from domestic and international market, setting up of State-of-the-Art manufacturing facilities, unveiling of new products for the armed forces, signing of MoUs with foreign and Indian Companies which have opened up new business opportunities for BDL.

BDL has received several orders in the current year for supply of various systems which includes Astra MK-I Air to Air Missile (AAM) and associated equipment for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. In addition to this, BDL has received order of Counter Measures Dispensing System.
BDL has set up Warhead Manufacturing facility at its Bhanur Unit, Seeker manufacturing facility at its Kanchanbagh Unit which takes BDL to the coveted club of RF Seeker manufacturer and tester in the world. Very few countries can boast of the same. This is a major step towards BDL’s efforts towards realization of Atmanirbharta in line with the Government of India’s policy. Further, BDL is all poised to manufacture state- of- the-art VSHORADS (Very Short Range Air Defence System), Laser Beam Riding Munitions under TOT agreement with Thales UK under the Make in India scheme. This will be short in the Arm for both, BDL and the Indian Armed forces. During Defexpo - 2022 and Aero India - 2023 held during this financial year, BDL has unveiled new products like Vehicle mounted Amogha III Anti-Tank Guided Missile (Sangramika), Light Support Vehicle mounted Laser Beam Riding MANPAD (Sanharika) and ATGM for MBT ARJUN, Vertically Launch Short Range Surface to Air Missile (VL SRSAM), SAL Seeker ATGM for BMP II and Drone Delivered Missile (JISHNU).

The Company has entered into Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with several foreign OEMs which will usher new opportunities for growth and bring new technologies into the Company. Some of the leading companies with whom BDL has signed MoU include MBDA, France for manufacturing of Mistral Missiles at BDL, Dassault Aviation Pvt Ltd for Integration of Weapon Systems like Astra & SAAW on Rafale Aircraft, Thales Belgium for setting up manufacturing facilities for Laser Guided Rocket and its major components in India, Barij Dynamics LLC (“AL TARIQ”), Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates to identify and work on Potential Projects of Al Tariq for manufacture in India for India and the world, BULTEXPRO LTD, Bulgeria for 122 mm GRAD BM ER and NON ER rockets in India.

BDL entered into Licensing Agreement for Transfer of Technology (LAToT) with DRDO for manufacturing of Ceramic Radomes (GELCAST Process). BDL received Green Channel certification from customer’s inspection authority for one of its programmes and is working on similar products across the company, in a phased manner.

...
Edit: Updated the link
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by rohitvats »

- 2 x IA Akash Regiments = 6 x IAF Akash Squadrons.
- Each IA Akash battery can operate on stand-alone mode as its has own Surveillance, FCR and Command Post (plus 4 x launchers).
- Geographically, 6 x Troops (each troops = 4 x launchers, Surveillance Radar, FCR, Command Post & Support Vehicles) can cover a very large area.
- With 2 x Kvadrat/SA-6 Missile Groups, IA now has 6 x SAM Regiments.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Karan M wrote:These are the same units.
Thanks Karan for the confirmation.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rohit: yes, that was my conclusion too. 1 IA regiment is the equivalent of 3 IAF squadrons, which is equal to 6 batteries. And just to mix it up even more, terms like groups and troops are also used!!

When you say IA has 6 regiments, can you plz give the break-up:

1) 2 SA-6, as you mention
2) 2 Akash regiments already inducted
3) What is the last 2: are they the new Akash regiments that have been ordered? Or there is something else?

Also, do we know the # of SAM regiments that the IA would ideally like to have? We can see if Akash and MRSAM will help fulfill these numbers
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by basant »

The new regiments are said to be Akash Prime as per Saurav Jha. He further says that '1S was the designation used for the tech demonstrator seeker enhancement'.
SSridhar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

basant wrote:The new regiments are said to be Akash Prime as per Saurav Jha. He further says that '1S was the designation used for the tech demonstrator seeker enhancement'.
Yes, true. But, I thought, that 'Prime' was meant for 'more reliability in high altitudes and low temperatures', whatever that means, apart from the indigenous seeker.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by basant »

SSridhar wrote:
basant wrote:The new regiments are said to be Akash Prime as per Saurav Jha. He further says that '1S was the designation used for the tech demonstrator seeker enhancement'.
Yes, true. But, I thought, that 'Prime' was meant for 'more reliability in high altitudes and low temperatures', whatever that means, apart from the indigenous seeker.
Akash Prime is equipped with an indigenous active Radio Frequency (RF) seeker for improved accuracy. Other improvements also ensure more reliable performance under low temperature environments at higher altitudes.
PIB Press Release
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

https://eurasiantimes.com/aws-vshorads- ... ld-leader/

Good article by Vijender Thakur, summarizing Vshorads, Akash-P & QRSAM

One thing that beats me: why was a Vshorads with a 6 Km range designed with a dual-pulse rocket motor, while the QRSAM with a 30 Km range wasn't? Doesn't the dual-pulse motor make the Vshorads a more complex, bulkier and expensive design - which goes against the principle of a light, cheap MANPAD?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Unless we somehow gain access to DRDO and services communication for the development of the two systems. We will never learn to actual reason as to why Dual pulse motor was chosen for the VSHORADS.

Especially when the DRDO had shown the competence in designing a dual pulse motor during the execution of the MRSAM/ LRSAM with IAI.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

The GSQR dictates the technology. So look at what the forces wanted.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by VinodTK »

Countering China: India moves towards creating rocket force with more 'Pralay' missiles
TIMESOFINDIA.COM | Apr 15, 2023, 07.49 PM IST

NEW DELHI: In a significant step towards creating its own rocket force to thwart the threat from the northern frontier, India is planning to acquire around 250 more Pralay ballistic missiles.

The defence ministry is likely to order two more units of the Pralay ballistic missiles worth over Rs 7,500 crore, sources told news agency ANI.
"Two more units of the Pralay ballistic missiles are going to be acquired for the defence forces, which are on their way towards creating a rocket force including assets of all three forces," defence sources said.

In December 2022, the defence ministry had cleared a proposal to procure around 120 Pralay ballistic missiles, which will be deployed along the borders with China and Pakistan.

The proposal for the acquisition of these missiles for ground forces is at an advanced stage and is expected to be cleared soon, they said.
pralay graphic.

Image
Work is also on to increase the range of these missiles by another few hundred kilometres to give a stronger capability to forces, the sources added.

Both China and Pakistan have ballistic missiles which are meant for tactical roles.
The missile developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation is being further developed, the sources said.
A quasi-ballistic surface-to-surface missile, 'Pralay' can defeat interceptor missiles and has the ability to change its path after covering a certain range midair.

'Pralay' is powered by a solid propellant rocket motor and other new technologies. The missile guidance system includes state-of-the-art navigation and integrated avionics.

The missile would be first inducted into the Indian Air Force and would be followed by the Indian Army.


In 10 points: All you need to know about 'Pralay':

'Pralay' is a quasi-ballistic surface-to-surface missile that can hit targets 150-500 kms away. Sources said the missile's range can be extended significantly if the need arises.
The missile can carry 350-700 kg high grade explosive, Penetration-Cum-Blast explosive, and Runway Denial Penetration Submunition.
It is designed to target radar and communication installations, command and control centers and advance airfields using conventional warhead.
The system is road mobile
The advanced missile has been developed to defeat interceptor missiles as it has the ability to change its path midair.
Defence Research and Development Organisation began development of the missile in 2015.
The missile was successfully tested twice on consecutive days last year on December 21 and December 22.
It is powered by a solid propellant rocket motor. The composite propellant is highly efficient and generates more energy compared to the propellant used in Agni missile series.

The missile guidance system includes state-of-the-art navigation and integrated avionics.
Similar foreign missiles of the same class include China's Dongfeng 12 (CSS-X-15), Russia's 9K720 Iskander and South Korea's Hyunmoo 2 missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Nice.

Learning the lessons from the Ukraine war.

Take the total numbers inducted over the next 10 to 15 years to 5000.

+ 10000 Nirbhay or whatever it's going to be called.

+ 30000 guided Pinaka rockets.

+ Absolutely gargantuan numbers of loitering munitions.

Let's not run out of guided munitions.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by konaseema »

Pratyush wrote:Nice.

Learning the lessons from the Ukraine war.

Take the total numbers inducted over the next 10 to 15 years to 5000.

+ 10000 Nirbhay or whatever it's going to be called.

+ 30000 guided Pinaka rockets.

+ Absolutely gargantuan numbers of loitering munitions.

Let's not run out of guided munitions.
And go bankrupt? For India and Indians deterrence is the key. I think India and even this BJP government wants to rise peacefully. If they were trigger happy, they would have spent more than 3% of our GDP on defense acquisitions in the last 8-9 budgets. I agree that deterrence will only deter who wants to be deterred. That said, our strategic planners will know what that number is going to be. Let us not get disappointed again with no orders or lesser numbers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

1) Deterrence requires the ability to damage your enemy sufficiently that any adventure becomes unaffordable.

2) what i am asking for can be accomplished with about 30 billion dollars. Spread over the next 15 years.

Hardly break the bank money. If it's spent in India.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

India's food subsidy bill is 4 Lakh Crores, which is $50 Billion per year
Subsidies sent via Direct Benefit Transfer for Food Security, LPG subsidy, PM Kisan etc etc is $62 Billion per year

These are necessary no doubt because a large % of our country is dirt poor + its also important to win elections (poor people with a vote & a freebie culture makes for a deadly combination). So, this Govt has no choice but to do these things

But we have consistently under-funded defense expenditure, defense R&D etc. It has become a stable equilibrium where MoF does not want to allocate more budget, MoD babus cannot sign paperwork fast enough, the Services do not have the capacity or mindset to induct fast enough & DRDO Labs, DPSUs move at their own sweet sarkari pace.

Everyone needs a major fire under their asses to move to a different orbit of higher expenditure, faster R&D and rapid inductions. Its like changing the bearing of a massive aircraft carrier
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by drnayar »

Pratyush wrote:1) Deterrence requires the ability to damage your enemy sufficiently that any adventure becomes unaffordable.

2) what i am asking for can be accomplished with about 30 billion dollars. Spread over the next 15 years.

Hardly break the bank money. If it's spent in India.
had seen a news article where it is mentioned that indian military is not in a stage where it can absorb 3% GDP. 2% is still what it is able to do efficiently. [ currently 1.9] Maybe worth while exploring this . It could be due to some bottle necks, acquisition procedures and maturity of the ecosystem. It does seem the GDP is expanding at a much greater pace than what the MiInd complex but it needs steady investment , and most importantly technocrats and managers who can improve the processes and build upon it.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by konaseema »

Let us look at it from a different perspective. How many Prithvi missiles were ordered / built, how many wars have been fought after we inducted them and how many missiles have been fired? These are the pertinent questions that will be asked by the govt of the day, before a decision is made. The shelf life of these missiles will have to be considered as well. IMHO China is a barking dog and hasn't shown intention to bite anyone yet. You don't need such ballistic missiles in thousand is my humble opinion. I doubt if there are that many installations along the LAC that will need thousands of such missiles to target. Forgive my ignorance, if you disagree.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

That was the thinking which led to the 1962 defeat there are enough and more targets for both Pakistan and China. Pakistan is always a Strategic threat they are only temporarily down .

We need to be much better armed, production of missiles, guidance system, production of composites, metallurgy, mapping, guidance systems all have civilian benefits also.

This is sort of short term thinking which leads to emergency imports led to invasions for 1000 years in this country.

If we are smart we need to get Indian MIC up and running. It is relative strength of Pakistani military especially PAF, which acted as a invitation for terror attacks since they felt immune from reltatiotory action. If IAF dominates the skies, no terrorist would dare stay in Pak.

I guess our media does not cover terror victims , people who have lost relatives, handicapped persons have led to such muddled thinking.

It's like asking if a burglary has not happened in your house, you do not need locks or lockers. Why waste money on doors , locks and lockers till the thief comes and does his robbery.

Or let me ask you in your opinion were lockdowns, vaccines, medical treatment, oxygen cylinders nessecary for Covid? By your logic and perspective it would have much better let 1% or 2% of the population just die? It would have been economically much more cheaper wouldn't it? The Government would not have lost out on Tax revenues.

It takes years to build defensive deterrence, by being unarmed and failing to deter, you are literally pleading China to attack our cities since we will have nothing to hit them back with and slowly break up India into pieces.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

And how will Pakistan or China fight, with fuel storage, ammo storage, railways, airbases , radar installations, logistic nodes, SAM systems artillery pieces thier own rocket artillery, cruise missiles, electricity generators, communication networks. China and Pakistan will assess all these capabilities before they try and pick a fight. They will not blindly send 20 soldiers to the LOC or LAC. And what do you think is at stake, just a few random terror attacks killing somebody whom you don't care about in this country or a few soldiers on the LAC whom you dont care about? The weaker the country the more enemy will want, with a strong counterattack capabilities we will able manage these threats better and have a more prosperous country. All cutting edge civilian Industries worldwide have come from manufacturing military products. So from a logical sense, economic and safety wise Godspeed to our missile manufacturing.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by konaseema »

Thanks for your response Aditya_V. My point was not to have doors and locks but how many doors and locks will deter a thief? How many is too many and how little is too little? I was responding to the 10000 Nirbhay's and 30000 Pinaka's and I am not arguing to NOT having Nirbhay's & Pinaka's at all. There is also a difference between having the capability and not using it (1962) Vs having the capability and showing the intention to use it (2020's). You need to understand the difference between Intent & Capability. Last year Russia invaded Ukraine because it had both Intent and Capability. What stops China from making the same move on Taiwan or India? It may have the capability but does it have the intent? Is it the single door and lock that has deterred China so far in just the last 3 years or is it because of the 100's of doors and locks that India and Taiwan have in their kitty?

On your question on Covid, you have a valid point. But every problem, there needs to be a solid infrastructure. You need to build a solid foundation to build a skyscraper on the top. Hence, the current govt is building the overall infrastructure that is needed in our country. It not only helps the economy to flourish, but it also helps move the defense equipment to the last post in the farthest corners of our country. You can't have a painting without the canvas, is my argument. And in my humblest opinion, I doubt we ever will get to those desired numbers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

In my opinion 10000 Nirbhay and 30000 Pinaka is too less, but I would prefer Pinaka with Tata or Ashok Leyland carrier, that way it will be more beneficial. 1998 there a report in the Hindu that having Prithvis or developing Agni missiles is too costly and by producing them the Indian economy will be destroyed, in the.long run these arguments were proven wrong. I think The Hindu quoted 50000 crore for 10 Agnis and 50 Prthvis, which was cheered by the Secular parties in India as to why we did not need missile capabilities or a Nuke deterrent.

As long we don't clamour for random imported solutions and develop capabilities based on Indian Industry it will help us.

In my opinion 216 LCa mk2 , 100 TEdBF, 100 AMCA plus some LCA Mk1a will be better than 114 Rafales for which we will we will always economic and decesion making tied to the French . As long the solutions are provided by I dian Industry we must invest in them.

I would not support say the import of B1B bombers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Can we absorb 100000 Nirbhay and 30000 Pinakas?

Will we need more personnel, i.e. new raisings to ensure that this inventory is ready for wartime use?

If not

Will we need to spend money on our weapon storage capability?

We may produce all these numbers but what are our constraints in utilising these?
Yagnasri
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Yagnasri »

Pinakas are being produced as 5000 per year IIRC. So we must have a lot of them. So Nirbhay, or something like that in another name, will come in many uses, will be a cheaper solution than Brahmos and will be used extensively. But, as mentioned above, I do not see that going at a considerable number. IIRC, the US had above 2000 in stock at one point.

That being said, seeing what is happening in the UKN war, we may also have to go for considerable stocks of munitions now. So our long-held idea of war with pakis will be there for 2/3 weeks before the "international community" intervenes no longer makes sense. So stocking up munitions and also increasing production capabilities is now a must.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

The huge numbers of long range missiles are to insure that we can credibly threaten the PRC will serious industrial harm.

That is the only way to insure that we can deter PRC from coming after our civillian and industrial base, during a war.

If our efforts fail, we still have a non nuclear option to punish the PRC.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush Saar,

Pinaka may be produced at 5000 per year, but there will be a limit when we say no more. Are you sure you are not conflating production with production capacity?

The point I was trying to make is that all this talk of increasing production and higher inventory etc, is meaningless without a detailed analysis of the true cost, especially when the Armed Forces are being asked to curtail Opex.

The realist in me thinks that the GoI does not think that there will be a war. The calculus is to provide the minimum level of deterrent vis-a-vis our adversaries which to me works sometimes and not others. With regards to our adversaries in particular;

Pakistan - I think we are sorted.

China - this is the million-dollar question. What deterrence is enough? From what I am hearing, there is still attempts to salami slice, esp around the Siliguri corridor of late. So is deterrence stockpiling missiles and the like, or should we also be proactive and start responding in kind?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:The huge numbers of long range missiles are to insure that we can credibly threaten the PRC will serious industrial harm.

That is the only way to insure that we can deter PRC from coming after our civillian and industrial base, during a war.

If our efforts fail, we still have a non nuclear option to punish the PRC.
Sirji the are still up to their slicing anticis or looking for an opportunity. So what exactly are we deterring?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Is that all the PRC will ever do?

Will they never reach a position where they want to force the issue in Arunachal Pradesh?

Have we decided that we will never push the PRC back?

Unless people learn to explore what is possible. They will forever be stuck in what is right infront of them and never built any capacity to change the status quo.

The advantage of internet is that we can be free from the limits of imagination of the government and explore what is within the realm of possibility.

If some capacity can be built with 30 billion dollars over the next 15 to 20 years. Why is it, that such a capacity is beyond imagination?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:Is that all the PRC will ever do?
They may do more, but if we don't deter the here and now, then whatever they may do in future will be more difficult to defend against.
Will they never reach a position where they want to force the issue in Arunachal Pradesh?
They may or may not but they are laying the foundation of that right now so.....

Have we decided that we will never push the PRC back?
Think that there is a general acceptance that there is a level to which we will push back short of bombing Shanghai. However, that is very realistically based on our limitations and our priorities.
Unless people learn to explore what is possible. They will forever be stuck in what is right infront of them and never built any capacity to change the status quo.
Agree exploration is definitely fine, but to make that reality a possibility always requires a thorough grounding of the current reality and the guardrails.
The advantage of internet is that we can be free from the limits of imagination of the government and explore what is within the realm of possibility.
I initially though of this as an oxymoron but on reflection let me may be you have a point.
If some capacity can be built with 30 billion dollars over the next 15 to 20 years. Why is it, that such a capacity is beyond imagination?
I am not saying do not imagine but rather that capability build has to be thought of holistically and realistically. IF you are going to buy 10000 missiles, then you need to have the capability to delivery them and all that entails and think that through as well.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Agreed mostly with your points.
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