Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

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JTull
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by JTull »

konaseema wrote:My limited understanding is that India's military doctrine is to defend our land mass at all costs and not to take the fight to the enemy. Having said that, ...
China angle has definitely impacted planned numbers. After Galwan, there's a need to create more escalation tiers. Disproportionate costs must be imposed. Production numbers may have been jacked up significantly, explaining greater private participation.

It is possible the higher rate infered from different sources is correct. But it is unwise to extrapolate it back over entire 15 years history.

Also, I get the impression that new production centers are to create capacity, usable for producing other missiles such as LACM, and aren't necessarily owned by Brahmos Corp. Final assembly may be by the Corp.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

India has become self-sufficient, self-reliant in missile technology: Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 267815.cms
27 Feb 2023
KL Dubey
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by KL Dubey »

ashishvikas wrote:Numbers might be quite low, below 300. Godrej Aerospace makes airframe and they have delivered just 200 by 2021
These DDMs forgot to mention that those airframes were for the *air launched version* (which has been ordered much later), not the Army version which has been manufactured (probably in thousands).

Here is a better news item on this:

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/busin ... ssile.html

It would be utterly laughable to think that only 300 BrahMos missiles were made in 20 years.
Last edited by KL Dubey on 28 Feb 2023 04:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by KL Dubey »

Karan M wrote:That's the indigenous production part. The earlier units would be mostly assembled from Russian parts. It's not that hard to estimate Brahmos numbers. They are higher than above but fairly modest, nothing like 5K - 8K-14K in service.
I think you should take a step back and review the available information more closely. There are a lot of news articles that confuse the reader. Some of the articles do give useful information. What I posted (5-8K estimate) was the summary number based on my search. I'm not going to post all the links and calculations. You can choose not to believe it.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by KL Dubey »

Karan M wrote:That's the indigenous production part. The earlier units would be mostly assembled from Russian parts. It's not that hard to estimate Brahmos numbers. They are higher than above but fairly modest, nothing like 5K - 8K-14K in service.
Interpreting the Godrej deliveries number in terms of "indigenous" versus "assembled" creates further confusion, and seems to be an incorrect path towards an estimate. Like I said in the other post, this is only for the air-launched version.

Godrej had been supplying airframes for the land variant for several years before that, e.g. see this media item from the BrahMos Aerospace site: https://brahmos.com/pressRelease.php?id=8

And, it looks like the airframes were also being manufactured by BrahMos inhouse before that (see older news items).

Its quite possible the early manufacturing of the airframes and engines occurred in Russia, those missiles also very much count in the numbers obviously.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by NRao »

4 days old. 70 minutes long

Srikanth P
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Srikanth P »

News on TV about Anti- Ship version of Brahmos being tested again - indigenous seeker
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Ashokk »

NOTAM 03-14 March 2023
#AreaWarning #India issues a notification for a no fly zone over the Bay Of Bengal, indicative of a missile test
Dates | 03-14 March 2023
Probably another Nirbhay test
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by NRao »

Srikanth P wrote:News on TV about Anti- Ship version of Brahmos being tested again - indigenous seeker
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kanoji »

Navy Test Fires BrahMos Missiles With Indian Made Seeker

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/navy-te ... ade-seeker
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Indian Navy successfully tests Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile from INS Visakhapatnam - ToI
Indian Navy on Tuesday successfully tested Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MRSAM) from destroyer INS Visakhapatnam, validating the capability to engage anti-ship missiles.

MRSAM is designed to destroy hostile aircraft, helicopters cruise missiles and drones at 70km range.

#IndianNavy successfully undertook MRSAM firing from #INSVisakhapatnam validating capability to engage Anti Ship Mi… https://t.co/nQfnfqZS2g
— SpokespersonNavy (@indiannavy) 1678159456000


The missile is jointly developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and produced by Bharat Dynamics Ltd.

"MRSAM jointly developed by DRDO and IAI, and produced at BDL reflects Indian Navy's commitment to Aatmamirbhar Bharat," the Navy said in a tweet.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Intercept video of 2 targets. Looks like ripple fire against multiple targets. One of the targets looks like a sea-skimming missile

https://mobile.twitter.com/indiannavy/s ... 2882077697

On the Brahmos test, I thought we had indigenized the seeker (and booster as well IIRC) a couple of years ago already. There was even news of tests with our own seeker from 2018
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Zynda »

I think the earlier tests could have been done by design agency i.e. DRDO/Brahmos Aero while the recent one is an end-user test.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Vips »

Per one defense YouTube channel, an independent overseas analyst has claimed that this was the first test of a near hypersonic speed (Mach 5) Brahmos.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Jayram »

Interesting thread here on detection of Brahmos firing detection via open source data including speed of the missile via acoustic wave anomalies tracked at tow different ground stations.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rrichcord/st ... 3600877569
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by basant »

Vips wrote:Per one defense YouTube channel, an independent overseas analyst has claimed that this was the first test of a near hypersonic speed (Mach 5) Brahmos.
He clarified it again to M2.8
Richard Cordaro @rrichcord
Replying to
@TheRevDoctor
I should have said "supersonic" . I think the missile was only Mach 2.8, not Mach 5. Sorry.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

The 2nd target of MRSAM was killed in a dive-mode, which makes me think that it was a high-altitude target (simulating an aircraft or an AShM in the High part of the trajectory). It was a nice scenario where a sea-skimmer and a high-flyer were simultaneously intercepted.

There was some Twitter chatter about 2 ships launching one missile each. Not sure about that. The Navy didn't say anything
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Ashokk »

NOTAM 15-17, 20-22 March 2023
#AreaWarning #India issues a notification for a no fly zone over the Bay Of Bengal Off Visakhapatnam, indicative of a missile test

Dates | 15-17, 20-22 March 2023
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by sohamn »

Jayram wrote:Interesting thread here on detection of Brahmos firing detection via open source data including speed of the missile via acoustic wave anomalies tracked at tow different ground stations.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rrichcord/st ... 3600877569

I don't think Brahmos can do hypersonic with the current engine. Brahmos was built around its ramjet and ramjet efficiency drops significantly above Mach 3.5, anything air breathing hypersonic you need a scramjet. These are just fabrication of some jingos. :rotfl:

Right now, they should focus on increasing the range of brahmos to 800 kms, and also launch a smaller brahmos at 299 kms for our tejas. Hypersonic brahmos is not a priority, we can solve that equation by just developing an air launched Pralay.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Hypersonic is in the works and the Brahmos CEO is on record saying that it will piggyback on the HSTDV program. But we are not close to deploying a Hypersonic Brahmos yet

The other 2 programs are also progressing: the lighter NG version and the longer-ranged variant. Hopefully, we should see tests soon
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

Prem Kumar wrote:Hypersonic is in the works and the Brahmos CEO is on record saying that it will piggyback on the HSTDV program. But we are not close to deploying a Hypersonic Brahmos yet

The other 2 programs are also progressing: the lighter NG version and the longer-ranged variant. Hopefully, we should see tests soon
The lighter version should be developed into a ARM to supplement the Rudra ARM. Nothing like knocking off the enemy's radars within first few minutes of war
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by JTull »

Is the MR-SAM dual-pulse core the same as Astra-II?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

JTull wrote:Is the MR-SAM dual-pulse core the same as Astra-II?
Why is it referred to as MR-SAM and not Barak 8 ?
Is it marginally or totally different from Barak 8 ?

Would it be different from the MR-SAM of IA or IAF ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Kersi wrote:Why is it referred to as MR-SAM and not Barak 8 ?
Because of the involvement of DRDO in the project. It started off as Barak-8 for the Israeli Navy but volumes demanded that a larger navy was involved in the development and Israel offered India a joint development to share the cost. The IN variant was called LR-SAM while the ground-based IA & IAF versions were called MR-SAM. Now, it appears that naming is standardized.
Is it marginally or totally different from Barak 8 ?
Don't know. But, IAI developed the front section of the LR-SAM, including the seeker head, the front controller, command electronics, and the explosive warhead. The DRDO has developed the rear section, including the two-pulse rocket motor, the rear controller, the thrust vector control and the folded fins. DRDO scientists and designers have also participated in the Israeli part of the development. For the IA & IAF versions, it appears that an Indian seeker is being used.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

Thanks
it is good that they have standardised the name. MR-SAM and LR-SAM for same system was rather confusing
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

If the IN also calls it as MR-SAM then it means that a LR-SAM is in the works
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Kersi wrote:If the IN also calls it as MR-SAM then it means that a LR-SAM is in the works
Likely.

In September 2016, it was announced that the dual-pulse motor’s range has been extended by a third, extending range nominally to 100 Kms. Later, one IAI official was quoted as saying that the range was 150 Kms. In May 2022, the DRDO Chief Satheesh Reddy indicated that the missile range will be extended beyond 250 Kms. Don't know if DRDO chief was referring to XRSAM, which has been in the works for a long time, with two variants with ranges of 250 & 400 Kms. But, XRSAM has a different pedigree, AAD.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nam »

Source: https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/16 ... 7790790656

Image


Any one wants to postulate what is that bump around the seeker region on Astra? It is too small for an IR inlet.

Is it an inlet for air to cool the AESA seeker? I don't if there are more than 2 bumps, but if it is only 2, one could be inlet, another is the outlet.

The previous shown Astra never had any such bumps. This seems to be the new iteration and the fact that it is around the seeker, could only mean something new was added to the seeker area.

Publicly it is only known to change a traditional KU seeker to AESA.

Edit: Or potentially a way to inject coolant for liquid cooling? It doesn't make sense to provide such an obvious inlet for doing this, as the BVR could be opened up and coolant replaced.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by pravula »

There seems to be some kind of conduit from it from the mid section. Sensor of some kind...
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Cybaru »

SSridhar wrote: Don't know. But, IAI developed the front section of the LR-SAM, including the seeker head, the front controller, command electronics, and the explosive warhead. The DRDO has developed the rear section, including the two-pulse rocket motor, the rear controller, the thrust vector control and the folded fins. DRDO scientists and designers have also participated in the Israeli part of the development. For the IA & IAF versions, it appears that an Indian seeker is being used.
Does that mean the naval testing of MRSAM will complete before, and we will see continued news around testing for IA and IAF? We should watch for similar tests to ensure whose missile is being tested. Why did IA and IAF go for a different seeker? What is the benefit they see that the Navy does not?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Vips »

BrahMos Aerospace set to bag USD 2.5 billion cruise missiles order from Indian Navy.

In a major success for the indigenous industry, the Indian Navy is going to place orders for acquiring more than 200 BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles which would be equipped on all the frontline warships of the maritime force.

The Indo-Russian joint venture company has recently carried out test firings of the missile with a high level of indigenous content and is also going to equip the missile with an indigenous seeker too.

"The Indian Navy proposal to acquire more than 200 of these BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles is at an advanced stage and is expected to be cleared by the Defence Ministry soon," senior defence officials told ANI.

The acquisition will also help the Indian Navy to stock the missiles in its arsenal which are deployed on warships as well as part of the mobile coastal missile batteries of the force.

The missile system has made significant advancements in the last few years after the Indo-Russian joint venture company increased its strike range from 290 km to more than 400 km.

The indigenous content in the missile system has also been increased and many of its systems have been upgraded and indigenised to increase the participation of Indian industry and manufacturers.

The missile system is also being exported to the Philippines. The Philippines Marine Corps personnel have also undergone training at the BrahMos facilities in India and more of their batches are going to be trained here.

Brahmos Aerospace, headed by Atul Rane, is also working towards achieving USD 5 billion export target set by Prime Minister Narendra Modi. The BrahMos Chairman had stated that after the first export deal with the Philippines at $375 million, his team was targeting USD 5 Billion by 2025.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by vinay »

nam wrote:Source: https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/16 ... 7790790656

Any one wants to postulate what is that bump around the seeker region on Astra? It is too small for an IR inlet.

Is it an inlet for air to cool the AESA seeker? I don't if there are more than 2 bumps, but if it is only 2, one could be inlet, another is the outlet.

The previous shown Astra never had any such bumps. This seems to be the new iteration and the fact that it is around the seeker, could only mean something new was added to the seeker area. ...
Good catch! This is outside my domain knowledge but my guess is that the bumps are proximity fuzes. The channel leading from the bump maybe an electrical conduit towards the center section of the missile, which may contain the warhead. Astra Mk-2 is said to have a laser proximity fuze vs. conventional radio proximity fuzes that are conformal to the missile body. It would be interesting if these are indeed optical fuzes and how the packaging of Astra Mk-2 evolves from what may be an early prototype to a production version.

Cutaway of AIM-120
https://www.ausairpower.net/USAF/000-AIM-120A-2S.jpg

Random tidbit on terahertz fuzes. May or may not be relevant.
https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... q_ppktAAAA

Article on Astra Mk-2
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... w/2701350/
The physical differences between Astra I and II are not much. Astra II missile is known to have a dual pulse solid rocket motor giving it a longer range. It is expected to have an AESA radar seeker. The design, too, appears to be similar, judging by the photographs. The proximity fuze is expected to be a laser proximity fuze. Astra missiles have a smokeless propulsion system.
Indian Defence Analysis video on Astra Mk-2 test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_kq2PoYS2k

A pulsed-laser proximity fuze may have advantages in overcoming chaff or towed decoys. With an AESA seeker, dual-pulse motor, 2-way data-link and likely very good ECCM, I'd wager that the Astra Mk-2 will be at least on par with AIM-120D and PL-15. I wonder if the one or two prototype Tejas Mk-1A's currently in UAE for Desert Flag would be simulating Fox3 with Astra Mk-2.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

^^

Vinay what is Fox3?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by vinay »

ks_sachin wrote:^^

Vinay what is Fox3?
ks_sachin, it is fighter pilot code: (from US Multiservice Tactical Brevity Code)

Fox 1 - Indicates launch of a semi-active radar-guided missile
Fox 2 - Launch of infrared-guided missile
Fox 3 - Launch of an active radar-guided missile. Used to be for guns/cannons before advent of BVR
Fox 4 - Use or cannon for air-to-air or air-to-surface
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

I dont think a Brahmos even with allied systems costs 75 crore, I think we are covering for higher production rates and settin gup capacities for ITCM's here.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

Aditya_V wrote:
I dont think a Brahmos even with allied systems costs 75 crore, I think we are covering for higher production rates and settin gup capacities for ITCM's here.
The price probably includes launchers, training, training rounds, storage facilities and other infra structure
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Its for the Navy. So, it will be stored in the ship itself.

The numbers do look off. That's nearly $10 Million a missile. Even in prior orders (where a simple unit cost calculation was done), it came out to only half this price ($5 million per missile). With large orders, which have been happening for Brahmos, the unit cost should come down, even assuming extended range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by basant »

It's very likely that the amount covers something not stated (as happened earlier with IN).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nam »

Laser fuse is a possibility. ASRAAM laser fuse is neatly tucked within it's body with a window on the surface.

The only public image of Astra MK2 doesn't show these bumps. Moreover the center diameter of MK2 is larger than MK1.

So this could be MK1 with laser fuse ( and may be AESA seeker) or MK2 but not with size differences that I noticed earlier.

DRDO has been very quiet about Astra Mk2 & MK3 status. MK3 was scheduled to be flight tested. Absolutely no news in AI23 about Astra status.
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