Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Soham,

Thanks for your response. It has clarified a lot of things.

A typical automotive engine is designed for thousands of kilometres driving. As such it has a lot of features that are designed for reliable operation.

A commercial off the shelf component will be too well built and reliable for a single use munition.

So I come to the second set of questions.

Is it possible for an existing ICE design to be rebuilt in such a way that it will provide reliable power for a single use application. But removes the features needed for thousands of hours of reliable operation.

Or a completely new design will have to be built, that is very light and reliable for a single flight.

I will understand, if, it requires an automotive engine expert to answer the questions.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by sohamn »

Some automotive engines can be perhaps adapted especially engines that can stay close to redline, perhaps some rotary engines, but most others can't. The simple reason is that aviation piston engines has the highest power and torque at peak RPM and in most of the cruise flight the engine stays close to peak RPM, but not less than 80% of peak. Automotive engines are designed ground up to get best mid range performance and often doesn't exceed 50% of peak for most of the journey. If you run existing auto engines at it's max RPM for the entire duration of flight they will overheat and fail.

For large drones which will run for hours at a time I think most auto engines will fail.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by sohamn »

ramana wrote:Sohamn, 40 kg is not an issue if its reliable.
Ramana - 40 kgs is not a big deal if you are flying in a commercial jet but it is good deal if you are applying it in a sub 1 ton drone or missile. Savings of 40 kgs will result in shorter wings, reduced lift requirements, lesser weight drag , more speed and more range. And it exponentially increases if your application intends to fly above 10k feet.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Soham, again thanks for your response.

I think that I have the answer that I was seeking.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

YashG wrote:Both M29 & M2K need a longer danda - BVR. I've not come across any updates of Astra Mk1/2 integration on M29. Similarly M2000 should also have a longer range danda.
nachiket wrote:Astra on M2k may not happen. You need the Frenchies to play ball for that integration and they won't help eliminate a customer for future MICA orders. Or they will charge an arm and a leg for doing it.

Secondly the Astra is longer and heavier than the MICA and I am not sure if it can fit on the 4 fuselage pylons of the M2k without adverse aerodynamic consequences. The M2k usually carries the MICA-RF on the 4 fuselage pylons and 2 MICA-IR on outboard wing pylons.
Yenjoy Saars, Yenjoy!!!! :mrgreen: Not M2K, but Rafale...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2567609
nachiket
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote: Yenjoy Saars, Yenjoy!!!! :mrgreen: Not M2K, but Rafale...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2567609
Excellent news! Rafale makes sense. Does not have the possible size issue of the M2k and since it is going to be in service for decades more, it is feasible to spend the money too. Also its radar can fully exploit the longer range of the Astra Mk2 and 3 in the future unlike the M2k.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:Yenjoy Saars, Yenjoy!!!! :mrgreen: Not M2K, but Rafale...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2567609
lungi dance!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Ashokk »

India successfully tests new generation Agni Prime missile
NEW DELHI: India on Friday successfully 'testfired' a new generation nuclear capable ballistic missile Agni Prime ballistic missile off the coast of Odisha at around 9.45am.
The Agni Prime is a two-stage canisterised solid propellant ballistic missile with dual redundant navigation and guidance system.
Earlier in December 2021, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) too tested the Agni Prime from Dr APJ Abdul Kalam island off the coast of Odisha.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Hemant Rout is saying additionally:

1) It carries MaRVs, capable of delivering multiple warheads
2) A range of 1000 - 2000 Kms
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Both MaRV & MIRV? So, it can destroy an entire CBG?
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Reports are sketchy but some talk about 2 warheads. With a 1.5 ton payload, 2-3 warheads seem reasonable. So, can't take out an entire CBG.

I am not even sure if Agni-P has an AShBm role. DRDO is said to be developing another BM for this purpose. If so, Agni-P might just be purely strategic

Clear as mud onlee
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Vips »

kit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

SSridhar wrote:Both MaRV & MIRV? So, it can destroy an entire CBG?
Guess it's either, MaRvs might be heavier so fewer warheads ? Not sure what advantage in having a combo of MIRV and MaRV s, or another possibility being MARV behaving as an MIRV.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

For an MIRV, the bus will have to be maneuverable anyway, because it has to drop passenger 1 at bus-stop 1 and passenger 2 at bus-stop 2

It might, in addition, have maneuvering capabilities to confuse ABM defenses

I have not seen MIRV warheads themselves being maneuverable, but I could be wrong. The representative picture in the above video shows warheads themselves being maneuverable and taking a non-ballistic path. For an AShBm role, the warhead definitely has to be maneuverable and have terminal guidance as well.

But will it be a unitary warhead or will there be multiple such warheads inside a bus? Packing multiple maneuverable warheads with their own guidance, fins etc inside a bus will be a challenging engineering task
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by RoyG »

Prem Kumar wrote:For an MIRV, the bus will have to be maneuverable anyway, because it has to drop passenger 1 at bus-stop 1 and passenger 2 at bus-stop 2

It might, in addition, have maneuvering capabilities to confuse ABM defenses

I have not seen MIRV warheads themselves being maneuverable, but I could be wrong. The representative picture in the above video shows warheads themselves being maneuverable and taking a non-ballistic path. For an AShBm role, the warhead definitely has to be maneuverable and have terminal guidance as well.

But will it be a unitary warhead or will there be multiple such warheads inside a bus? Packing multiple maneuverable warheads with their own guidance, fins etc inside a bus will be a challenging engineering task
https://www.google.com/amp/s/babelinfoc ... oiseau/amp
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Prem, you are erroneous.
Please don't make categorical statements like an authority folk might mistake.
I have not seen MIRV warheads themselves being maneuverable, but I could be wrong. The representative picture in the above video shows warheads themselves being maneuverable and taking a non-ballistic path. For an AShBm role, the warhead definitely has to be maneuverable and have terminal guidance as well.
Adding is disclaimer doesn't cut it.

We need to improve the standards in BRF.
As I know you am using you as an example.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Vips »

Homegrown cruise missile system hit by technical snag.

A fresh test of India’s indigenous technology cruise missile (ITCM) system ‘failed’ on Friday after its engine reportedly developed snags. The system, a technology demonstrator, was tested with indigenously developed small turbo fan engine (STFE) ‘Manik’ and an upgraded radio frequency seeker from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast.

Defence sources said the engine developed technical glitches after the initial booster phase, and the missile system plunged into the sea within 30 seconds of the launch. The mission had assumed significance as the missile with indigenous STFE developed by Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) would pave the way for development of a long-range land attack cruise missile that the country has been expecting since long.

“The engine was supposed to start after the initial take-off from the specially designed mobile launcher. But it did not start, possibly owing to a snag. The system then fell down,” said a defence scientist associated with the mission.Since the engine did not start it would be difficult to say how it developed snags and whether any external factor was responsible for it. Issues, if any, with the design of the system will also be looked into, he added.

This was the second failure of the system in the last two years. Of the three tests of the ITCM conducted since 2020, two have failed and one achieved ‘partial success’. During the first trial on October 12, 2020, the system deviated from the pre-coordinated flight path prompting the mission team to kill the missile mid-air to prevent damages to human habitation as the same engine had failed to function. The second trial on August 11 last year though was ‘partially’ successful as the engine performed as expected but the missile system could not travel the desired range reportedly due to some issues with the control mechanism.

Developed by Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) lab of DRDO, the ITCM technology demonstrator uses the sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay platform for validating the STFE of 450 KGF thrust class. The country’s first cruise missile Nirbhay was equipped with Russian origin NPO Saturn 36MT turbofan.

DRDO Chairman Samir V Kamat did not respond to calls and messages from TNIE. ADE Director Y Dilip refused to comment. Both were present at the test range during the vital mission, sources said.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Serious house cleaning required in ADE and the Nirbhay/ITCM project. They are so happy doing tech-demos that they haven't shipped even one product :evil:

What was appalling was the closing down of Nirbhay as a tech demo *after* a few successful tests. Then start ITCM from scratch. It'd have been far less riskier and more useful for the forces to induct a few hundred Nirbhays with the Russian engine. In parallel, test and certify the homegrown engine.

What's also baffling are failures (not this test but previous ones) in control systems. Those should have been perfected with the Nirbhay program itself, unless they are starting everything from scratch

The new Director claims to have made changes but until something gets shipped, he is no different from his predecessors
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

I have been wondering, if the pate 7 can be used to power a cruise missile?

The engine might require a different air intake. But that should not be a huge challenge.

Second, the air intake was recessed in the Nirbhay. Did it provide sufficient air flow for consistent engine ignition and operations?

Or an external air intake would have had better performance?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

Look these things happen, the Govt should double down on funding, ask for quick fault analysis and series of tests so that ITCM is perfected quickly and inducted in numbers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

Vips wrote:Homegrown cruise missile system hit by technical snag.


“The engine was supposed to start after the initial take-off from the specially designed mobile launcher. But it did not start, possibly owing to a snag. The system then fell down,” said a defence scientist associated with the mission.Since the engine did not start it would be difficult to say how it developed snags and whether any external factor was responsible for it. Issues, if any, with the design of the system will also be looked into, he added.

This was the second failure of the system in the last two years. Of the three tests of the ITCM conducted since 2020, two have failed and one achieved ‘partial success’. During the first trial on October 12, 2020, the system deviated from the pre-coordinated flight path prompting the mission team to kill the missile mid-air to prevent damages to human habitation as the same engine had failed to function. The second trial on August 11 last year though was ‘partially’ successful as the engine performed as expected but the missile system could not travel the desired range reportedly due to some issues with the control mechanism.

said.
i dare say this again was a "partial success"., lets have a look at a detailed report coming soon. Keep at it , the ITCM program is perhaps the most tactically important of Indian missile programs
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotax_914

These engine's are powering the Shahid drones being used in Ukraine. These are 115 HP peak power engines @ 5800 RPM. With a continuous power output of 100 hp.

Something like this will be very useful for long range Indian loitering munitions program.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by rsingh »

I was watching Diwali fireworks. Is it possible to defeat and overwhelm anti rocket system such as Dome.Even an intense firing in battlefield can make enemy to waste shells on useless source.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

There could be a few reasons for the failure to start the engine.
1) Electrical failure Signals wiring harnesses etc. The launch shock could have disconnected the wiring.
2) Pyro starter failure The Initiator might not have received the signal or did not function after the signal was received.
3) Engine failure engine might have malfunctioned.

It's bad communication for the DRDO to not say anything. Looks stupid.
Just have a spokesman ready to say they are investigating which is true.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

rsingh wrote:I was watching Diwali fireworks. Is it possible to defeat and overwhelm anti rocket system such as Dome.Even an intense firing in battlefield can make enemy to waste shells on useless source.
Yes, it's definitely possible to do so.

But in a peer level conflict, the iron dome will not be operating alone. It will be operating in conjunction with counter battery radar and dedicated counter battery arty and rocket systems as well. Which means that the opposing forces will not have the time needed to overwhelm the system in the face of counter battery fire.

Secondly, an iron dome type system has the ability to plot the point of impact for ballestic projectiles. Such as short range rockets and arty shells. It will know which ones need to be engaged and which ones have to be left alone.

Loitering munition is different prospect.

The solution to defeat iron dome might be a micro loitering munition. Put one over the suspected location. Use it send targeting data to friendly arty system and then force it to spend it's missiles in defending itself.

Hopefully before the iron dome kills your loitering munition.

There are other variations to the concept I have outlined above.

That is one of the reasons why the Israelis and the US is moving towards a lazer based interception systems.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by dinesha »

India today successfully conducted maiden Flight Test of Phase-II Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) interceptor AD-1 missile with large kill altitude bracket today from APJ Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha. Flight test was carried out with participation of all BMD weapon system elements.
Video Link: https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1587760832410107904
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Congratulations to the team. This appears to be a completely new missile.

It's doesn't appear to be either the earlier versions AAD or PAD.
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Re: ABM Test

Post by SSridhar »

Great news. Have been waiting for a while for this.

This is the AD-1 missile which is the endo-atmospheric missile. This performs the same function as the AAD of Phase-1, but for ICBM-class missiles.

Hope we will also see soon the AD-2 missile, the exo-atmospheric missile. We might have already seen this in 2017 in the form of the ASAT weapon.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

That explains it the difference in the missile.

Now for a genuinely a nube question.

Are we going to have 2 seperate sets of missiles.
1) for IRBM. Endo and Exo
2) for ICBM. Endo and Exo
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Ashokk »

Pratyush wrote:That explains it the difference in the missile.

Now for a genuinely a nube question.

Are we going to have 2 seperate sets of missiles.
1) for IRBM. Endo and Exo
2) for ICBM. Endo and Exo
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Thanks again.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

Kudos to DRDO!

The press release also said that AD-1 can have multiple roles, including anti-aircraft. So, it can serve as a very long range SAM.

The million $$ question is whether AAD and PAD have been inducted. I hope these BMD programs don't end up becoming just tech-demonstrator projects
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

Congrats to DRDO , Hope they roll out BMD defenses asap, build a sophisticated tiered air defence around major regions starting with NCR. Once proven maybe we won't need a s400/500 battery in the future.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by hnair »

Great going. The booster looks interesting, particularly the fins. Like a larger diameter one used for lofting the SFDR version of Astra3 during ground tests.
SSridhar wrote: We might have already seen this in 2017 in the form of the ASAT weapon.
True. That ASAT test fulfils almost all objectives of sensor-to-KV chain. Akin to the American GBI program for ICBM class Mid-course intercept and more.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nash »

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1873179

The AD-1 is a long-range interceptor missile designed for both low exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric interception of long-range ballistic missiles as well as aircraft....
As per this report it can intercept low exo-atmospheric, so shall we consider the highest altitude of interception would be around 120-150KM ?

Notam range was 294 KM, it may be not tested for that range, but gives idea about operational range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

hnair wrote:True. That ASAT test fulfils almost all objectives of sensor-to-KV chain. Akin to the American GBI program for ICBM class Mid-course intercept and more.
Exactly, very similar to GBI at midcourse.

The ABM & ASAT are separated by only a thin line.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by RoyG »

I recall sometime back that India had purchased Sula radar from Russia. Deliveries begin 2023. Will be critical to designate and track space threats.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

^^^^

The only reporting to the Indian procurement of SULA comes from IDRW and some other site. Nothing from main stream media.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

We have INS-Dhruv dedicated to track BMs and other small objects in space

ISRO also has a multi object tracking radar (MOTR)

These are in addition to LRTR and space based assets. These are still early days and we have much ground to cover, but a good start has been made.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienr ... c2de64179b
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

My guess. It my be easier to destroy an orbiting satellite than to destroy an incoming missile IRBM / SLBM / ICBM
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