Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Dec 2022 15:00

All IR guided missiles need time to be cooled and acquire targets. Indian time will be equal to best as we have "imported" IR seeker and sensor .

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Dec 2022 20:59

rohitvats wrote: This domestic versus import discussion has been reduced to a zero sum game on this forum w/o looking into operational scenarios. Thank god the GOI has been more respective of such issues.

+100%

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Dec 2022 01:49

mody wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/wh ... 1247f72317

An article on Helina in TOI. Can anyone confirm the following information given in the piece. 50-60 seconds to acquire a target seems to high.

"Developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the HELINA is designed to be fired from helicopters and aircraft to destroy enemy tanks. This anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) has recently undergone trials and four of the five trials have been successful. Now, it has to be "integrated" into helicopters and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Bharat Dynamics (BDL) are at work on it. The "integration" should be complete by 2025 is the assessment."

"With work already in progress for arming helicopters with the HELINA, there is also an effort to reduce the "human-machine interface" time. Simply put, the missile has to be fired as quickly as possible so that the enemy does not have the time to react. Currently, the 'acquisition" is taking 50-60 seconds, but it is being brought down to 30 seconds. This will allow the helicopter a better opportunity to destroy enemy tanks on the ground."

A few paras above it says

Work on the HELINA began about a decade ago, and with the trials in September 2022 being successful, the decision to arm a helicopter with it was taken. The missile is largely indigenous with only the "seeker" being imported

So what is being sought is to reduce the time constant for acquisition.

What is the figure of merit for imported missiles?

The IAF has about 600 Hellfires.
The LCH has an integral laser designator. So a short-term fix is to integrate Hellfire with the integral laser designator.
Also above story doesn't tell if the tank target is illuminated or just optical.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Dec 2022 01:50

Guys please don't reduce every thread to a whine fest.
Long back I had a Wallowing thread for such posts.
Maybe need to revive it.

nits · Post by **nits** » 28 Dec 2022 07:52

Came across a very informative and researched thread from Indranil Roy on Twitter - https://unrollthread.com/t/1607804304538365953/

He is talking about Prithvi Days till latest Launch of Agni V and yet to be launched Veda and how we have beocme आत्मनिर्भर

India is almost self-sufficient in missile technology. Sophisticated state-of-the-art missiles are going from design-board to first-launch in less than 3 years, getting tested dozens of times in the next 3 & getting inducted. This success story must be studied and internalized

.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 Dec 2022 10:46

30s comes from the Spike missile. So naturally IA wants HELINA to have similar time. Nothing wrong in that. Question is - was in the sqr. And can it be brought down without too much effort. And this is for an LOBL launch.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 28 Dec 2022 11:32

Prasad wrote:30s comes from the Spike missile. So naturally IA wants HELINA to have similar time. Nothing wrong in that. Question is - was in the sqr. And can it be brought down without too much effort. And this is for an LOBL launch.

So tomorrow if there comes about an $#@%7 ATM with 29.5 s as acquisition time, DRDO is agian sent to the drawing board. And Indian buys $#@%7 ATMs as emergency purchase. Sorry for whining but this Nag issue has been going on for decades

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 28 Dec 2022 13:09

Do we have any IR version of Astra ? Not to the best of my knowledge
Is there any IR AAM under development or we are happy importing R 73, ASRAAM, MICA etc.

Based on my minuscule gyan, it should not be too difficult for DRDO to design an IR Astra.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 28 Dec 2022 13:57

Based on twitterverse, Astra IR is being developed + ASRAAM's production line is now in India (dont know what %age indegenization here ), so ASRAAM wont be imported much longer.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 28 Dec 2022 14:37

YashG wrote:Based on twitterverse, Astra IR is being developed + ASRAAM's production line is now in India (dont know what %age indegenization here ), so ASRAAM wont be imported much longer.

Could Astra IR / ASRAAM replace R 73 on SU-30 / MiG 29 / Tejas ? I hope so

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 28 Dec 2022 14:39

Long ago we had SS-N-2 Styx batteries and mobile launchers.

Do we have any such system now ? I have seen a couple to pics of SS-N-2 Styxe mobile launchers, at Worli sea face - Mumbai

We can have mobile Brahmos batteries, if we do not have them by now.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Dec 2022 14:43

Kersi wrote:Long ago we had SS-N-2 Styx batteries and mobile launchers.

Do we have any such system now ? I have seen a couple to pics of SS-N-2 Styxe mobile launchers, at Worli sea face - Mumbai

We can have mobile Brahmos batteries, if we do not have them by now.

3 years back parliament discussed replacing them with Coastal based Brahmos, should have been done by now

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... s-missiles

nits · Post by **nits** » 28 Dec 2022 16:14

does this things need parliament discussions on where to deploy and what - i always though this are strategic decisions not meant for parliament

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 28 Dec 2022 17:22

Kersi wrote:
YashG wrote:Based on twitterverse, Astra IR is being developed + ASRAAM's production line is now in India (dont know what %age indegenization here ), so ASRAAM wont be imported much longer.
Could Astra IR / ASRAAM replace R 73 on SU-30 / MiG 29 / Tejas ? I hope so

Yes , ASRAAM will be standard shortrange A2A for IAF. Jaguar already carries it. LCA too. M29, SU30 will too, if not already. R73 will be phased out and the inventory will likely be used in systems such as Samar - that is an SAM system reusing R73 for close quarter AD. Samar has been developed by IA inhouse.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2022 18:15

rohitvats wrote:Close to 100 Rudra gunships and now a token number of LCH are flying w/o an ATGM because HELINA has been under development for long. If shit hits the fan with China, India's most numerous gunships will be w/o an ATGM against an enemy which deploys mechanized assets on a liberal scale against India.

So, when you go around beating your chest about domestic product, do look into these trivial matters of operational necessity.

This domestic versus import discussion has been reduced to a zero sum game on this forum w/o looking into operational scenarios. Thank god the GOI has been more respective of such issues.

In any other country, HELINA would be in service by now. It's telling that we are chasing unobtainium rather than build what's available. The Pakistanis are flying gunships with SACLOS missiles. The Apache has laser guided Hellfires which need LOS to the target and need to be in constant hover making the chopper exposed. We want one with a F&F one and are quibbling over acquisition time. In any other country, such whimsy would be stopped. Where is the logic then over quibbling over 30s in acquisition time. The overall profile of chopper exposure would d be far higher with most current systems in service with IA/IAF.

After this 30 second stuff, some new issue would've been found and the program pushed forth further.

We've had the seeker issue at peak summer times in the Thar been brought up to push Nag induction even further when even the LSP amounts on order could've been trialed in the Ladakh/Leh/NE area where there was a pressing need for ATGM resources and now this acquisition time stuff. At this rate, nothing will ever be made or inducted. And when we finally do have conflict you fly with MiG-21s vs F-16s because the Tejas wasn't as good as the latest Gripen or whatever. Sane logic. Same story with artillery. We want perfection and have long forgotten what is available can and should be used.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Dec 2022 19:31

Karan M wrote:..We want perfection and have long forgotten what is available can and should be used.

<OT> Different groups wanting different things Karan ji. The Top echelons of the forces desire perfection, the Baboons, connected with the Dalals & import lobby, use their powers to present the Government (the executive, not the politicians mind) with no alternatives other than to continue the old ways. If the executive still pushes for bold changes the compromised pillars are immediately activated to force the government to soften, if not completely roll-back the reformative action</OT>

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2022 19:39

Agree completely and am now of the opinion the AF are useful to place in front while the real wheeler dealers move on, behind. Everything then goes on about AF vs DRDO vs DPSU etc while the rest avoid any mention or censure. The plot to divide the SA from the RM position is one more in the same. Just move screwdrivergiri from public to pvt sector.

Kanoji · Post by **Kanoji** » 29 Dec 2022 11:17

Army, Air Force To Get 120 Pralay Missiles As India's Rocket Force Begins To Take Shape
https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/army ... take-shape

nits · Post by **nits** » 29 Dec 2022 16:12

Good start i will say; but in long run selective ownership of missile with IRF ( India Rocket Force) will not do; we need to bring all missiles under there command. then we also have Strategic Forces Command which commands many missiles including Nuclear; may be they need to merge and get integrated...

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 29 Dec 2022 18:25

IAF successfully tests extended range version of BrahMos missile from Sukhoi jet

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force on Thursday successfully test-fired the extended range version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile against a Ship Target in Bay of Bengal from a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet.
The range of the missile is 450-km.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 29 Dec 2022 19:12

450 km is a excellent range when combined with the combat radius of SU30 MKI. The chances of survivability of an Chinese surface vessel in the bay of Bengal when facing multiple such barrages is minimal.

Elimination of surface vessels is the first objective we will need to achieve to ensure that our Asw assets can operate with the freedom needed, to hunt submarines

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 30 Dec 2022 04:31

RoyG wrote:20% weight reduction with composite first stage puts it at 40T. With the lighter 125/175KT TN warhead in our inventory range is >8000km.

Fun will come w/ MIRV bus + decoys and more energetic propellent to reduce the boost phase intercept window.

That 20% weight reduction due to composite fiber casing is on the stage dead weight (i.e. deadweight = 1 - MassFraction) ; its not 20% reduction of stage-mass or total missile mass.(that would be ludicrous)

So if initial booster MF was 0.88, the new stage MF will be 0.91. Significant but not earth shattering.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 30 Dec 2022 04:56

ernest wrote:All this range talk reminds me of a graph created by Arun S during the early testing days of Agni 3. Went to search for it, and found it on (usual offender) defence news website, who have copied it without credit. just a small image though. From this graph, Agni 3 was itself capable of ICBM ranges with one nuclear warhead. The warhead weight of 1.5 tonne was too much for a single unit.

My BR Missiles section content I removed when i left webmaster role, so no more graph there.

You can see some of the graphs in otger articles written on IDR

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/auth ... shwakarma/

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 30 Dec 2022 05:14

ramana wrote:Sanjay, Long ago India Today had a special anniversary issue of various achievements.
One picture was that of Kalam and on the whiteboard, he had an aeroballistic trajectory* of the RV for Agni.

Arun_S has that picture and most likely will comment after he reads this.
BTW every Agni II onwards had Boost Guide RVs with fins on the RV.
It was only with A5 that RVs in the ballistic mode was tested.
Most like this RV had a High Altitude engine that allowed the trajectory.
Maybe they mastered the BGRV without fins and executed the test trajectory.

* In words it had a parabola and after reaching the apogee it travels downwards and levels off at ~3/4 of the parabola height.

Sorry I was traveling last few weeks.

You mean this pic

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 30 Dec 2022 05:24

Kersi wrote:Waiting for some gold nuggets form Mr Arun Vishwakarma

Kersi saar, Am old horse with long tooth onleee
Time to not show Indian hand, hence launched at night and no more photo release to public.

GoI learnt that if Arun_S can draw so many conclusions from pic, other can do so too.

All I can say is that my initial work of 2003 to 2009 period had a significant impact ( for the better) on Indian deterrence and missile program evolution. (I can't share more on it )

My salute to all desh-bhakt s

The 20% weight reduction is IMO misunderstood

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 30 Dec 2022 05:31

Kersi wrote: Where do we fit Nirbhay ?

It's name is changed,
Pilot lots prolly done, mass production w/Manik due now.

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 30 Dec 2022 06:12

Haridas wrote: My BR Missiles section content I removed when i left webmaster role, so no more graph there.

You can see some of the graphs in otger articles written on IDR

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/auth ... shwakarma/

Thanks for the links. Good to know where I can find your content. It was the best source on Indian missiles and strategic forces for me growing up.

Another question for you: I remember seeing about a solid fuel Prithvi (P-3) in your articles. Indranil also mentioned about it, and how it served as base for PAD, and some other missiles. Did any solid fueled Prithvi variant actually see service? If yes, they'd be a cost effective asset in the rocket force. But I don't think they ever did enter service as there is no mention of it that I've ever seen in context of strategic or rocket force

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Dec 2022 09:04

Haridas wrote:
Kersi wrote: Where do we fit Nirbhay ?
It's name is changed,
Pilot lots prolly done, mass production w/Manik due now.

I take it that the different issues plaguing the missile have been resolved?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Dec 2022 11:16

The missile apparently works. Only need the engine to come good now.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 31 Dec 2022 04:39

ernest wrote: Thanks for the links. Good to know where I can find your content. It was the best source on Indian missiles and strategic forces for me growing up.

Well the current owners of BR dont see need for those Missile and Space section pages restored in liue of my demands/conditions, so much of those will remain buried. I too have moved on to more influential opportunities and don't see time priority for BR webpages.

This is IMO my best published service to Bharat desh: systems, warhead & missiles. Propositions there have blossomed in reality. http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... terrent/0/

VickyAvinash · Post by **VickyAvinash** » 31 Dec 2022 10:41

[/quote]

This is IMO my best published service to Bharat desh: systems, warhead & missiles. Propositions there have blossomed in reality. http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... terrent/0/[/quote]

This is a loss for BRF. It was one of the major pull for my generation to seek out and join BRF.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Dec 2022 13:49

Karan M wrote: In any other country, HELINA would be in service by now. It's telling that we are chasing unobtainium rather than build what's available. The Pakistanis are flying gunships with SACLOS missiles. The Apache has laser guided Hellfires which need LOS to the target and need to be in constant hover making the chopper exposed. We want one with a F&F one and are quibbling over acquisition time.

Who told DRDO to develop F&F NAG missile when the whole bloody world was still on SACLOS? And who proposed F&F HELINA? You can have DRDO promise X system with certain performance parameters and then make such absurd arguments to justify delay in development.

Last I checked IAF wasn't complaining about SACLOS on its Mi-35 or Hellfire on its Apaches.

In any other country, such whimsy would be stopped. Where is the logic then over quibbling over 30s in acquisition time. The overall profile of chopper exposure would d be far higher with most current systems in service with IA/IAF. After this 30 second stuff, some new issue would've been found and the program pushed forth further.

Where is it said that this is holding up the induction of the missile? For all that we know, this is the next step in an iterative development. As for 2025 time-frame, that is most likely fleetwide adaptation of the missile.

At 100+ Rudra gunships alone, even 10 missiles per gunship requires a production of 1,000+ missiles.

From start of adaptation on gunships to developing SOPs to fleetwide absorption, 2 years seems a respectable timeframe.

We've had the seeker issue at peak summer times in the Thar been brought up to push Nag induction even further when even the LSP amounts on order could've been trialed in the Ladakh/Leh/NE area where there was a pressing need for ATGM resources and now this acquisition time stuff.

Deployment of an asset in a particular sector is a matter of policy. When the need arose, they've done the trials of HELINA from Rudra gunship in Ladakh and cleared for induction.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Jan 2023 12:55

Twitter chatter that QRSAM is ready for induction and production can begin within 6 months of orders being placed. Nothing in MSM yet.

Last tests in Sept had mixed reportage. Govt claimed success and induction-readiness. But an ET report said there were flaws.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Jan 2023 14:09

There were no flaws. 6 tests/6 tests passed. 2 other were technically hits. DRDL stands by their missile. I don't have to say anything more about the users. The damn thing is ready for orders.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Jan 2023 14:19

Prasad wrote:There were no flaws. 6 tests/6 tests passed. 2 other were technically hits. DRDL stands by their missile. I don't have to say anything more about the users. The damn thing is ready for orders.

Prasad, can you confirm the news report that the QRSAM is going to get orders soon?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Jan 2023 14:49

It is ready for orders. BDL expects orders. Will it be placed? Will it be approved? No idea. Too many cooks.

basant · Post by **basant** » 09 Jan 2023 09:21

Nag anti-tank guided missile along with the NAMICA (together NAMIS) has finally been inducted

Saurav Jha @SJha1618
Anyway, the Nag anti-tank guided missile along with the NAMICA (together NAMIS) has finally been inducted into the Indian Army. These are file pics of the NAMICA. The production variant has a few new accoutrements.

7:53 PM · Jan 8, 2023

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 09 Jan 2023 09:52

^^^
Sjha in his 10dec indegenization appreciation hour said that these are being inducted.

But the numbers inducted are low. Will there be any larger repeat order with some improvements or not is not clear.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 Jan 2023 10:08

Other than his tweet, I don't see it reported anywhere

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 09 Jan 2023 15:23

Will NAMIS be a good choice to deploy on the LAC ?