Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

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JTull
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by JTull »

Mk2:

So carriage and ejector drop tests are done. Only need confirmation of guided firing!

Waiting for news of LSP order!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

dinesha wrote:"BVR Mk-II ASTRA"

Video: https://twitter.com/ShivamDivyansh/stat ... 9685143555
From another angle....

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 0CMRC_UiJw ---> Ejector Launched ASTRA MK-II test fire from SU-30MKI.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Very bendy mizzile in the above video on Twitter!!
YashG
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by YashG »

Is it possible that full design of the missile has been frozen integrated and tested but the missile motor or/and seeker are still undergoing fine tuning so as to achieve full accuracy and range ? So perhaps when both are achieved, a final test and successful test will be announced and production preparations.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nam »

As expected, Astra MK2 was always being tested on ground in public view. It is VL-SRSAM!

VL-SRSAM is dual pulsed Astra. i.e. Astra MK2.
kit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

Astra Mk2 from Su 30MKI

https://twitter.com/Defencematrix1/stat ... 3760359424

Image

Astra Mk-2 will use dual-pulse solid rocket motor for extended reach and better kinematics during the kill phase. The missile will share smokeless propulsion of its predecessor Mk-1, whilst imbibing newer technologies being implemented in other missile program of DRDO like Barak 8 and Rudram-1.[22][32] The plan is to extend the range of Mk-2 version to 160 kilometres (99 mi) rivaling American AMRAAM AIM 120-D. Astra Mk-2 variant will make use of indigenous seeker manufactured by Bharat Electronics Limited

source: Wiki
Zynda
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Zynda »

Remembering reading that Astra Mk.2 will also sport locally developed AESA seeker....Perhaps usage of newer smaller avionics LRUs might have opened up space for more fuel carriage and dual-pulse motor. External shape might have been refined for better performance but changes could be not significant to make out visually...plus it would be prudent to retain current Mk.1 dimensions to avoid unnecessary redesign of weapon storage containers & ground handling systems on IAF front. Another plus point of retaining current config is minimising number of tests required to prove safe store separation.
nam
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nam »

DRDO will not create new aero design for weapon that is required asap. Using MK1 aero design means no major aero testing required.

The objective is to get it in to service asap. Not carry out tech demo project.
YashG
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by YashG »

if we have mk2 bvr in same size, then only planes u wud carry mk1 are those whose radar cant fully exploit mk2’s range. Those would be - M2000, M29?
Is it?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by sajaym »

One of the YouTube videos i saw on Astra mk-2 says that firing any missile at ranges of 160kms has lower kill probability but atleast it'll force the enemy to go cold. I find this logic strange...if you want the enemy at long ranges to defend against you, then why fire missiles from a platform which can hold only a finite number of rounds?? Wouldn't it be a better idea if a SU-30 locks a bogie and then has a ground based launcher fire a 160-300km shot and make the bogie go cold. And then creep up on the bogie which is defending & engage it with missiles onboard the SU-30? This way the IAF can have more number of air-to-air missiles in the air (per engagement), than the actual airframes they have! There is nothing new here, this the same tactic which was used by armies in medival times -- first archers used to rain arrows on the advancing enemy at long ranges and the remaining enemies were engaged at short ranges by regular infantry.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by basant »

Other advantages of longer range is higher No-escape Zone (NEZ). Plus, the guiding may be handed over to other a/c such as Sukhois/AEWs a bit further till the seeker can take over.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

YashG wrote:if we have mk2 bvr in same size, then only planes u wud carry mk1 are those whose radar cant fully exploit mk2’s range. Those would be - M2000, M29?
Is it?

1) We don't know what is the specific ability of the concerned radar's to reach this conclusion.

2) A widespread adoption of AEW should be able to overcome this. With the use of data links capable of providing real time information from the AEW to the fighter. Along with the fighter providing guidance to the missile using its data link.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

nam wrote:DRDO will not create new aero design for weapon that is required asap. Using MK1 aero design means no major aero testing required.

The objective is to get it in to service asap. Not carry out tech demo project.
Is it possible that the Mk2 will be the primary BVR of the IAF. The Mk1 will be limited to the current orders.
YashG
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:
YashG wrote:if we have mk2 bvr in same size, then only planes u wud carry mk1 are those whose radar cant fully exploit mk2’s range. Those would be - M2000, M29?
Is it?

1) We don't know what is the specific ability of the concerned radar's to reach this conclusion.

2) A widespread adoption of AEW should be able to overcome this. With the use of data links capable of providing real time information from the AEW to the fighter. Along with the fighter providing guidance to the missile using its data link.
Fair enough, then why do we need Mk1s over Mk2 - Standardize for Mk2 unless (cost is more, Kill probability is lower inspite of lerger Kill Zone, Weight is an issue due to more fuel being carried).

Mk1 were ordered in limited quantities - was it cz IAF wanted to double down on Mk2 which was on the anvil ?
But that would seem a slight waste of money on Mk1 development unless the entire Mk1 development was a subset of Mk2 development.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Perhaps the Mk1 was going to be built as a design to put the missile in service. While stabilising the production line.

Once the labs perfected the dual pulse motor. It is relatively easy to install it in the Mk1 airframe and we are off to the races. With minimum changes to the data link and warhead. The missile was designed to accept an Indian seeker as is.

The revised missile can be produced with minimum disruption and modifications to the existing assembly line.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by S_Madhukar »

Yonhap reports the recent failure of Hyunmoo-2C missile while the usual war-like games with NoKo were ongoing.
The military fired the indigenous missile from a base in the eastern coastal city of Gangneung on Tuesday night as part of combined live-fire drills with the United States after the North sent an intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM) over Japan.
It was intended to hit a dummy target in the East Sea. However, it traveled westward and fell into a military golf course just 700 meters away from a civilian house. :rotfl:
While the propellant burned, the warhead did not explode due to a safety device, with no casualties reported.
While it might make us chuckle I wonder if we have ever tested in a similar fashion or do we have regiments on either coast that such contingencies may not happen.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

I think the physical dimensions for Astra MK1 and MK2 are not exactly identical. Mostly the diameter of MK2 is perhaps slightly larger than MK1. The weight of the missile is also more.
With a dual pulse rocket motor, two way datalink and rumored AESA seeker, it would already put the missile in the AIM-120D class.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

Watch "The Defenders: DRDO's New Weapons: ASTRA & CSWS | 01 October, 2022" on YouTube

Kersi
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

How long will we continue with R 73 ?
Can we design and make a IR homing AAM based on Astra or on the technologies developed fro Astra ?
What about ASRAAM ? Will it be our standard short range AAM ?
Roop
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Roop »

Kersi wrote:What about ASRAAM ? Will it be our standard short range AAM ?
Very likely; or it may, possibly, share that role with Python-5.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Kersi wrote:How long will we continue with R 73 ?
Can we design and make a IR homing AAM based on Astra or on the technologies developed fro Astra ?
What about ASRAAM ? Will it be our standard short range AAM ?
One thing I didn't get is why didn't IAF and IN standardize on ASRAAM and get a factory set up in India?
It will arm so many aircraft to helicopters.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ks_sachin »

Ramana garu they need something RAM..ed up their backside (AS)!!!

What did you expect?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SidSoma »

Kersi wrote:How long will we continue with R 73 ?
Can we design and make a IR homing AAM based on Astra or on the technologies developed fro Astra ?
What about ASRAAM ? Will it be our standard short range AAM ?
After the deployment of Astra Mk-1, several offshoot versions are being planned including an imaging Infra-red homing missile tentatively classified as Astra-IR
From Astra Wiki Chacha page...

BTW Our own HarshV Takhur has stated on Twitter that Astra IR will be a super potent missile...This statement if from Indranil
Astra-IR will most likely be MICA-IR class
https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 4674425989


Your wishes have been answered Sir.
mody
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

As @SidSoma mentioned above, Astra-IR is already under development. Might be test fired for the first time next year.
With regards to the ASRAAM, I think it is going to be produced in India under license via a joint venture with MBDA.
Python-V has been fired from the Tejas, but I doubt it will be procured in greater numbers. The ASRAAM has been fired from Su-30MKI and has already integrated with the Jaguars. Tejas integration is already on the cards. M2K have the MICA-IR and MICA-RF. Rafael have the MICA-IR and most likely the Mig29UPG will continue with the R-73E.

Mostly in the years ahead, Tejas, Jaguar and Su-30MKI will get the ASRAAM. Tejas and Su-30MKI might transition to the Astra-IR if the performance is satisfactory.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by YashG »

Both M29 & M2K need a longer danda - BVR. I've not come across any updates of Astra Mk1/2 integration on M29. Similarly M2000 should also have a longer range danda.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nachiket »

Astra on M2k may not happen. You need the Frenchies to play ball for that integration and they won't help eliminate a customer for future MICA orders. Or they will charge an arm and a leg for doing it.

Secondly the Astra is longer and heavier than the MICA and I am not sure if it can fit on the 4 fuselage pylons of the M2k without adverse aerodynamic consequences. The M2k usually carries the MICA-RF on the 4 fuselage pylons and 2 MICA-IR on outboard wing pylons.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Dilbu »

Ukraine Eyes Indian Co-Developed Air Defence System To Counter Russia’s ‘Missile Rain’ & Iranian DronesUkraine Eyes Indian Co-Developed Air Defence System To Counter Russia’s ‘Missile Rain’ & Iranian Drones
According to a New York Times report, Ukraine has also asked Israel for air defense systems with Iron Dome and Barak-8 platforms being identified by Kyiv. Barak-8 has been a collaborative effort between the Israeli Aerospace Industries (IMI) and the Defence Research Development Organization (DRDO) of India.

It is a different matter that the Iron Dome has long been pointed to be ineffective to the far more sophisticated Russian missiles. This is compounded by the larger geographical size of Ukraine and the greater number of radars and sensors that would need to be deployed.

Also called the Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile System (MR-SAM) meant for the Indian Air Force, the Barak-8 was originally co-developed with Israel for the Indian Navy under the designation Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile System (LR-SAM).

It was inducted by the Indian Air Force in September last year, while it is already installed on board frontline destroyers and frigates of the Indian Navy (IN).

Israeli firm Rafael Advanced Defence Systems, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), Bharat Dynamics Limited, and Larsen and Toubro are some other firms involved in the project.

It can destroy jets, missiles, helicopters, and drones at a range of 70 km. While India has developed the solid-fuelled rocket motor/propulsion system and thrust vector controls, Israel has developed the electronics seeker that guides the missile in its terminal phase, critical avionics, electronics, and command and control (C2) system.

The missile can receive and process continuous updates on the position and flight trajectory of the target and use these updates to adjust its own flight to best intercept and destroy the target.

The naval LRSAM functions in consonance with the Israeli-developed MF-Star multifunction radar and provides point-and-area air defense. The agreement to co-develop the project was signed between India and Israel in January 2007, with several tests of the LR-SAM and MR-SAM conducted between December 2015 to March 2022.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

What does eyeing mean???
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

They want to acquire it.
kit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:They want to acquire it.
As far as I understand India owns part of the IP so it's consent is required?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by gakakkad »

Israelis are too smart to get involved in this . Russians can give them a lot of pain in syria . And there is nothing in it for them. If zelenski flees he ll be seen in the US and not in Israel even though he claims to be of Jewish heritage.pretty sure Israel wants nothing to do with him .
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Has Rudram missile been put in production?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aldonkar »

gakakkad wrote:Israelis are too smart to get involved in this . Russians can give them a lot of pain in syria . And there is nothing in it for them. If zelenski flees he ll be seen in the US and not in Israel even though he claims to be of Jewish heritage.pretty sure Israel wants nothing to do with him .
At least one UK newspaper has stated that his wife and two children are in Miami. However, subsequent to that report she has been in Kiev so perhaps she travels between them as necessary. Sorry no link to the report of her residence.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Nalla Baalu »

IIRC, there have been only couple of dev. trials of Rudram-1 to date.
Pratyush wrote:Has Rudram missile been put in production?
nam
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nam »

I wonder if it is time for DRDO to start developing a 1000 or 2000 KM ranged, LM. You don't need TFTA turbon fan engines. A small propeller engine is enough.

It will be most economical long range strike weapon. Fundamentally poor man's cruise missile.. easy to produce..

I am hearing murmur's about Ukraine rolling out a 1000 km ranged LM...!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

I have always wondered if such a munition can be powered by the various Petrol/ Diesel engines available in India with automakers.

We have Bajaj making a 400 cc bike engine.

Both Tata and Mahindra have engine's in 2000 cc range.

For high altitude performance add a supercharger to the engine.

The crank get's fitted with a propeller.

Depending on the engine used. All up weight can range from 500 kg to 2 tons.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by JTull »

:rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by sohamn »

great question, but general automotive engines are not well suited in aviation. These engines are heavy, and are mean't to have a transmission or torque convertor. Most aviation engines are direct drive, light weight, longitudinal and simple. They dont have overhead cams or very high compression ratios etc, and most of them are not that efficient compared to a road car engine. some people might be surprised that most aviation ICE engines are push rod valve operated. The goal is minimizing failures at any cost (hardened and robust), make it simple to maintain and as light as possible to minimize weight drag.

for e.g. dry weight of a lycoming O360 engine would be around 120 kgs but a similar honda vtech cast aluminum modern engine would be around 160 kgs
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Sohamn, 40 kg is not an issue if its reliable.
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