Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

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Barath
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Barath »

Pratyush wrote:
Are we going to have 2 seperate sets of missiles.
1) for IRBM. Endo and Exo
2) for ICBM. Endo and Exo
No BMD for ICBM. Phase 1 and phase 2 are for different range irbm. Phase 1 is for delhi vs pak. Phase 2 is for chinese irbms

Icbm is > 5500 km

Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ba ... _Programme


Phase 2: With range of 1,000-3,000 km, AD-1 can intercept medium-range ballistic missiles. DRDO is working on AD-2 with range 3,000-5,500 km for intermediate-range ballistic missile interception
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote:These are still early days and we have much ground to cover, but a good start has been made.
Yes, SSA (Space Situational Awareness) is becoming extremely crucial as war-fighting moves to space. We have seen China develop FOBS (Fractional Orbit Bombardment System) though the concept itself is nothing new and goes back to the Cold War days of 1970s. Our Defence Space Agency (DSA) has to develop a comprehensive SSA program very much like the Maritime Domain Awareness (MDA). The QUAD countries are joining together for IPMDA (Indo-Pacific MDA). ISRO's ISTRAC operates ground stations at Biak, Brunei, Vietnam & Mauritius. This may be fairly adequate for PSLV/GSLV missions but emerging space threats require a more comprehensive response. We might need a couple more INS Dhruvs and some more stations. That should also help our ABM programme.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Vips »

'If enemies target us...': DRDO chief on ballistic missile defence system.

India has made significant advances in developing endo-atmospheric and exo-atmospheric intercept systems to destroy incoming hostile missiles.
The AD-1 missile is propelled by a two-stage solid motor and equipped with an indigenously-developed advanced control system

The AD-1 missile is propelled by a two-stage solid motor and equipped with an indigenously-developed advanced control system

The AD-1 interceptor missile that completed its maiden test Wednesday is 'a significant jump' in the Indian military's ability to protect the country from long-range ballistic missiles, Defence Research and Development Organisation chief Dr Samir Kamat told news agency ANI Thursday.

Dr Kamat said the Phase II BMD (ballistic missile defence) AD-1 can intercept any projectile of the 5,000 km-class.

"If enemies target (us) from long range, we now have the capability to intercept. It is a significant jump in our capability against ballistic missiles," he said. "Once our radars pick it (the enemy missile) up, it (the AD-1) will be able to track it... our defence system can be activated and (the) missile can be intercepted. It is mainly endo-atmospheric but also works in low exo-atmospheric region. We're developing for high exo-atmospheric region."

Once operational and integrated, the two systems will provide the country with a multi-layered defence against incoming ballistic missiles, defence ministry officials said. The system offers a hit-to-kill probability of 99.8 per cent.

Propelled by a two-stage solid motor, the missile has advanced (indigenously developed) control, navigation and guidance systems to strike with precision.

The AD-1 - described by officials as a missile with a 'large kill-altitude bracket' - was test-fired from the APJ Abdul Kalam island off the Odisha coast.
Officials said 'all systems performed as per expectations'.

Defence minister Rajnath Singh called the missile 'unique' and said it had technology 'available only with a few countries'.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nash »

nits
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nits »

This is a proud moment and congrats to our Scientist; my only concern is deployment...

We have seen successful test of PAD and AAD years back but we never saw a news of those getting deployed unless they are and we are not aware - i am happy if thats the case.

We have mastered the Missile Tech in all aspects; what is missing is time it takes post successful test to actually ordering, producing and deploying it. that is the area which takes ages
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Vips »

Details of the BMD2 development-Vijaender Thakur in Eurasian times

According to the PIB release announcing the test, the AD-1 “is propelled by a two-stage solid motor and equipped with an indigenously-developed advanced control system, navigation and guidance algorithm to precisely guide the vehicle to the target.

“The AD-1 is a long-range interceptor missile designed for both low exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric interception of long-range ballistic missiles and aircraft.

“During the flight test, all the sub-systems performed as per expectations and were validated by the data captured by several range sensors including Radar, Telemetry, and Electro-Optical Tracking stations deployed to capture the flight data,” read the release.

In the photo released by the PIB, you can see the aerodynamic surfaces for maneuvering on the missile’s second stage. Aerodynamic surfaces can only be used for maneuvering within the atmosphere. Exo atmospheric manoeuvering requires thrusters.

The AD-1, with its limited exo-atmospheric capability, would be able to intercept ballistic missiles with a range of around 3,000 kilometers. Higher-flying, longer-range missiles would be handled by the AD-2, which would likely be a pure exoatmospheric interceptor.

Together, the AD-1 and AD-2 can shoot down ballistic missiles up to a 5,000-kilometer range.

Phased Development Of BMD System
DRDO is developing India’s BMD system in two phases under a capability-based deployment plan. In the first phase, which has been completed, the DRDO developed a system for defense against missiles with less than a 2,000-kilometer range, like Pakistan’s Ghauri and Shaheen missiles and China’s solid-fuel Dongfeng-21 (NATO designation: CSS-5).

BMD Phase 2 can defend against missiles with ranges greater than 2,000 kilometers that can also deploy decoys or maneuvers.

Longer-range missiles climb higher following a ballistic trajectory and hurtle down on the target at much greater speeds than shorter-range missiles. During their final phase, ICBM warheads can reach speeds twice those of intermediate-range missiles.

The Phase 2 system will feature longer-range radars (detection range of 1,500 kilometers as opposed to 600 kilometers for Phase 1 radars) and hypersonic interceptor missiles flying at Mach 6-7 (as opposed to Mach 4-5 for Phase 1 missiles) with agility and the capability to discriminate against ballistic missile defense countermeasures.

Phase 1 Radar
DRDO is developing an Over The Horizon (OTH) radar for Phase 2, based on the Swordfish radar acquired from Israel. Israel will provide some equipment and consultancy for the new radar, which would feature 80% indigenous components.

Missile Testing Infrastructure For BMD Phase 2 System
Phase 2 testing of the BMD system requires two ranges placed well apart along the missile trajectory. DRDO is developing two new missile ranges at Machilipatnam in Andhra Pradesh and Rutland Island in the Andamans.

Target missiles would be launched from a floating test range (FTR), a 10,000-ton displacement ship under construction.

A DRDO scientist told The Hindu that the FTR “will pave the way for conducting trials for different trajectories, varying altitudes and higher ranges. We can go up to 1,000-1,500 kilometers without any problem. Currently, we have to conduct simulation tests for longer ranges.”

Missile trajectories would be monitored using a missile-range instrumentation ship (MRIS). The ship built by Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) Visakhapatnam has already been handed over to the Indian Navy for operations.

The MRIS features an X-Band primary AESA radar and an S-Band secondary AESA radar.

The tracking radars can track the inbound flight trajectories of surface and submarine-launched ballistic missiles, including any maneuverable warheads released by the missiles.

Cochin Shipyard is building another MRIS for tracking cruise missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Vips wrote:Cochin Shipyard is building another MRIS for tracking cruise missiles.
The current INS Dhruv has an X-band and an S-band radar. The S-band radar should help in tracking cruise missiles.
I therefore expect the second radar-ship to be similar to INS Dhruv or better, not limited to cruise missile tracking alone.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

The ANI interviewer cannot ask the simple question about whether AAD/PAD have been operationalized. No need to divulge details, but a simple yes/no question would have been enough
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

Prem Kumar wrote:The ANI interviewer cannot ask the simple question about whether AAD/PAD have been operationalized. No need to divulge details, but a simple yes/no question would have been enough
They probably want our adversaries to keep guessing
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

If BMD deployment is to be kept a secret, why announce tests & capability at all? Why keep only induction a secret?

Doesn't compute
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by YashG »

Prem Kumar wrote:If BMD deployment is to be kept a secret, why announce tests & capability at all? Why keep only induction a secret?

Doesn't compute
Capability announcement is for deterrence. Obfuscation of deployment is even more of a deterrent. Its Schrödinger's' cat then.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Prem You are a member of long-standing here. And should know better.
Development tests are not complete.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/158 ... XXXd02Iahw ---> If you recall, the initial talk was of procuring 12 S-400 units from the Russkis. That was then pared down to five. Those additional seven units are now likely to be an indigenous equivalent to the S-400 that has received sanction and is under development.

https://twitter.com/saurabh_spirit/stat ... XXXd02Iahw ---> Any tech transfer from russians that helped this development sir?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/158 ... XXXd02Iahw ---> No.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by hnair »

SSridhar wrote:
Vips wrote:Cochin Shipyard is building another MRIS for tracking cruise missiles.
The current INS Dhruv has an X-band and an S-band radar. The S-band radar should help in tracking cruise missiles.
I therefore expect the second radar-ship to be similar to INS Dhruv or better, not limited to cruise missile tracking alone.
SSridhar, if you are referring to INS Anvesh build at CSL(already undergoing sea trials for a year) as the second MRIS, it seem to have a single dual faced fixed AESA and does not have any other radome.

Image

Reference Link

I think this installation+ship is for lower atmosphere tracking and splash/impact pinpointing at low horizon. The ship can also be probably used for Gaganyan crew/capsule retrieval since it has solid recovery cranes etc at stern.

But since lots of talks about anti-cruise missile defense, might be used as a test bed for an indigenous cruise missile sensor like the highly miniaturized but excellent Arleigh-Burke mast mounted AN/SPQ9B or the Japanese arrays on the Asahi class for low altitude threats. Considering the proliferating sub-surface fleet of PLAN, AShM cruise missiles are going to be the go-to option in IOR against Indian LSCs. A vital sensor that needs to be developed asap.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

India keeping close tabs on Chinese spy vessel in Indian Ocean, while ballistic missile test planned for next week likely to be deferred - ToI
The Indian Navy has been “closely monitoring” Yuan Wang-6, which is under the command of the Strategic Support Force of the People’s Liberation Army with a crew of around 400, ever since she entered the IOR through the Sunda Strait of Indonesia some days ago, defence establishment sources told TOI.

India had earlier issued a NOTAM (notice to airmen) with an expanded no-fly zone over the Bay of Bengal for the test of a long-range ballistic missile on November 10-11. A new AD-1interceptor missile for Phase-II of the indigenous two-tier ballistic missile defence (BMD) system was also tested from the Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast just two days ago.

But the user-trial of the ballistic missile of the Agni series by the Strategic Forces Command next week is now likely to be deferred. “China has been regularly sending such spy ships to the IOR in the past to gather technical intelligence, often around the time India tests its missiles. Such vessels can track the speed, accuracy and range of ballistic missiles,” a source said.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

No logic for the illogcal source.

Obviously its the "longer-range missile test" on 10-11 Nov that has priority over the Agni test. So both can happen in the same week.
It is not the Chinese ship duh!

How did they schedule both in the same week?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

asbchakri wrote:https://www.theigmp.org/2022/09/indian- ... #gsc.tab=0



But I do not see it in any official channels or in BDL site
In September a lot of YouTube channels had reported that orders had been placed with BDL for BMD Phase-1 missiles. AAD and PDV both were supposed to be in production. With regards to the actual deployment or the accuracy of the reporting, there is no official word.

The development was discussed on BRF in September
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

Common sense would suggest an initial interim BMD capability would be deployed with AAD and PDV for Delhi at least. And the rest of the country plus Delhi can get AD-1 and AD-2 batteries too. It woukd be insanity on our part to merely protect Delhi, ignore Mumbai, Bengaluru, Chennai, Pune, other high importance cities, and key HV targets. I don't think GOI would do that and ignore the rest of India.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

I am sure there are such plans, but certain things will not be put out publicly. We demand a lot of answers. I would like every detail PRC military and Paki military , every crash, orbat, fleet availability and issues with JF 17, J 20 etc.. but unfortunately our enemies get away with a lot secrecy.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

WRT, the speculation on deferring of the planned missile tests due to the presence of PRC spy ship.

I think that the presence of this ship represents an excellent opportunity for India to establish with the PRC the credibility of Indian deterrence.

When the PRC ship finds out just how accurate the missile is.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

ramana wrote:Prem You are a member of long-standing here. And should know better.
Development tests are not complete.
Ramana: I am not talking about AD-1.

AAD, PAD development trials were complete long back, but no news about inductions. I don't believe that inductions are happening in secret. Occam's razor (past experience) suggests that they have not been deployed. The SFC is waiting for AD-1 and AD-2 to get ready. Typical, perennial wait for the best while ignoring the good.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Pratyush wrote:WRT, the speculation on deferring of the planned missile tests due to the presence of PRC spy ship.

I think that the presence of this ship represents an excellent opportunity for India to establish with the PRC the credibility of Indian deterrence.

When the PRC ship finds out just how accurate the missile is.
I think that YW-6 is in the IOR to track the uncontrolled entry of the core-stage of the Long March-5B that was launched a week back to the Chinese space station. The Chinese launch pads (except for the one in Hainan) are located inland and therefore large cores are tugged inefficiently along into orbit and then made to enter atmosphere uncontrolled after a few days endangering other nations while protecting Chinese habitations during the launch. This LM-5B was launched from Xichang in Sichuan.

Of course, the YW-6 could linger along for some more time knowing that an Indian launch was imminent even if cancelled for the time being. Chinese ELINT satellites (JianBing-8 & Yaogan-30 constellations) can gather a lot of telemetry too. India would take an appropriate decision, no doubt.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by S_Madhukar »

A few rocket launched torpedoes and Brahmos tests should also be carried out in the area. More the merrier atithi devo bhava
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Prem things happen that we are not aware of.
PLA seems to be more aware of the number of Brahmos and Nirbhays.
Or ASAT launchers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by nits »

Most of our launches are in Bay of Bengal; i think we should have alternate launch pad location where we can fire in Arabian Sea; just make things more difficult for them if not easy
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

I don't understand why we are getting our chaddis in a twist.

Technical information is one of the best methods of establishing credibility of launch system in the eyes of the enemy.

If the PRC is not here to collect intelligence on Indian systems as speculated by Sridhar.

Dosent matter.

If they are, then so much the better. You cannot stop your own program just because someone has placed a spy ship in international waters. Or you will never make any progress.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

^ I agree with Pratyush.

During the Cold War days, the US & USSR went to extraordinary lengths to collect telemtry from missile test launches, which continues to this day using far more sophisticated ELINT satellites and missile instrumentation vessels like Dhruv & YW-5 & 6.

China does many tests within its borders, like the Taklamakan desert, but it still has to fire missiles into East China Sea for testing or warning purposes. That would give an opportunity for others to map them out.

We cannot stop our tests just because the YWs are loitering around Sunda & Lombok, near the flashpoints of our Agnis. That will upset our development and deployment processes. Only in some specific situations, DRDO may feel compelled and absolutely necessary to postpone. One can even guess that the launch window may also avoid ELINT satellites of China which have roughly a 2 hour visit time over the southern IOR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Navy plans to stop Chinese spy ship from entering India's exclusive economic zone
"We are constantly monitoring her every movement. Our surface and sub-surface assets are tracking the Yuan Wang-6. So are our Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) and long-range maritime surveillance aircraft. In fact, we are also in a position to find out what this ship is tracking. Though we can't do anything till she is in the open seas, action can be taken once she attempts to enter our EEZ. Had she been a normal PLAN warship, we could have done nothing due to the international right to passage laws.

"However, a foreign survey and research vessel can't be allowed to operate in our EEZ. She won't be able to get close to our coastline. We know that Yuan Wang-6 has powerful equipment on board that can track from hundreds of nautical miles away, but there is nothing anybody can do so long as she is in international waters," the official said.

"The only problem is if the Chinese vessel receives permission from any one of our maritime neighbours to enter their territorial waters. We share our maritime boundary with Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Near these countries, we can't enforce our EEZ laws as the sea is contiguous. That is why we have International Maritime Boundary Lines to demarcate territory. Now, if Bangladesh allows the Yuan Wang-6 to dock at Chittagong or Sri Lanka grants permission to her at Hambantota Port, she will be lying extremely close to our coastline and tracking everything," another official said.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

With regards to the BMD phase 1, Wiki says that GOI had allotted land for the long range radars near Alwar in north Rajasthan and near Pali in south Rajasthan. This would probably cover most of paki airspace.
A lot of reports had emerged in September that BDL had received orders for the manufacture of AAD and PDV missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by RajaRudra »

Wild and childish may be.

But what if we target the ship as it is and sink while near the country. and give any of the below reasons ...

1) Ballistic Missile Test failure - resulting in unintended sinking. We had already given warning of the area.
2) Chinese ship rammed into our fishing or small boat and not responding to IN calls to stop.
3) Can we use any low-pressure area in the ocean that is disrupting communication and never even announce anything like that happened.
4) Provoke something in the LAC and publicize this as part of defensive action. Let's test the water at least and the missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by bharathp »

why do we want to disturb our economic rise with silly tactical geenius gains like felling a ship which can be built again?
unless there is a strategic, long term gain of some value, gaining an upper hand technologically (decoys/scrambling EM waves near the ship etc to distort the signals it is recieving) could/should be employed.
perhaps there is a need for such systems so as to beam errant EM signals towards these sensors from multiple areas to create more noise
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by RajaRudra »

Most of the time we are just reacting. I know economic rise is more important but now a days PLA Navy is venturing to Indian ocean (it is testing our patience level). Somehow, we must let the Chinese know that we are not happy with this deployment, and we are being not happy is having a cost.

We may no need to really sink that ship, but at least near miss kind of missile fall or our Navy airplane doing a mock bombing run on the ship will make them rethink the frequent deployment.

Otherwise, we may have to deploy our ships near the Indo China with same or more frequency which will be costing more.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

RajaRudra wrote:Most of the time we are just reacting. I know economic rise is more important but now a days PLA Navy is venturing to Indian ocean (it is testing our patience level). Somehow, we must let the Chinese know that we are not happy with this deployment, and we are being not happy is having a cost.

We may no need to really sink that ship, but at least near miss kind of missile fall or our Navy airplane doing a mock bombing run on the ship will make them rethink the frequent deployment.

Otherwise, we may have to deploy our ships near the Indo China with same or more frequency which will be costing more.
i like your thinking., now what would have the PLAN done if it was an Indian spy ship right there in Indo-China sea?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

S_Madhukar wrote:A few rocket launched torpedoes and Brahmos tests should also be carried out in the area. More the merrier atithi devo bhava
Can a ship launched Brahmos "misfire" and hit another ship "by mistake" ?
We can always apologize later !!!

Remember the book Debt of Honour by Tom Clancy ? TheJapanese Navy launch torpedoes on teh US carriers to try and disable them ? A perfect pre-emptive strike
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by RajaRudra »

kit wrote: i like your thinking., now what would have the PLAN done if it was an Indian spy ship right there in Indo-China sea?
Are we tying ourselves with how the PLAN will react? Anyway, most probably they will ping our ship in the radio(nuisance). They will also blabber that our ship is entering their sea and should get permission to exercise the right of travel.

In our case, we are not trying to own the sea. We are just trying to avoid frequent visit of PLAN ships near our country. So, the way Chinese react may not suit to us. If these visits become normal, they may try to intimidate us when we are in coming under stress (in LOC, LAC or some other stress)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Cyrano »

If the Chinese ship can monitor us, perhaps can hack into it and inject a trojan and keep doing the usual hee haw in the press.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by sanjayc »

Do to others what they are doing to you (mirror response). This is the best strategy in all situations. Station your own spy ship in international waters in the South China Sea.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Guys just to remind this is a fact thread.
And there are many other threads to dream on.
Thank you.
Ramana.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

sanjayc wrote:Do to others what they are doing to you (mirror response). This is the best strategy in all situations. Station your own spy ship in international waters in the South China Sea.
What will you do with the data?

For the Chinese and the US, India is a new power on the block.
So they want to learn more by observing the data.
Even if the data is encrypted its volume and how many channels all give an idea of the missile's capability.
Then there is the splash-down optical and radar data.
For India, it is immaterial as it is already under threat since the first Dong Feng.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

ramana wrote:
sanjayc wrote:Do to others what they are doing to you (mirror response). This is the best strategy in all situations. Station your own spy ship in international waters in the South China Sea.
What will you do with the data?

For the Chinese and the US, India is a new power on the block.
So they want to learn more by observing the data.
Even if the data is encrypted its volume and how many channels all give an idea of the missile's capability.
Then there is the splash-down optical and radar data.
For India, it is immaterial as it is already under threat since the first Dong Feng.
For one , I would want to know how accurate their carrier busting DF 21 is, how their hypersonic weapons programs are progressing, how effective their sensor shooter tech can be, missile /radar defences around the yunan naval base etc etc for starters !.. they do have VLF and troposcatter early warning radar systems in their southern sea board.... honestly a electronic sniffers paradise..why do you think the Americans fly their electronic warfare planes near ...data is priceless and one can work what electronic techniques to employ in wartime

One should be surprised if India was not doing all this...and more ..also stop relying in US data
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