Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Multiple you tube channels are reporting that BMD missiles production orders have been placed with BDL. But am not seeing any real news sources.
asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 373
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by asbchakri »

https://www.theigmp.org/2022/09/indian- ... #gsc.tab=0



But I do not see it in any official channels or in BDL site
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

I don't think any details regarding deployment of BMD systems would be in public domain!!
asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 373
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by asbchakri »

As long as they deploy I do not care if we have official news or not. :)
prashantsharma
BRFite
Posts: 104
Joined: 14 Dec 2010 23:17

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by prashantsharma »

Search hard enough and you can even find newspaper articles mentioning the exact locations :roll:

kit wrote:I don't think any details regarding deployment of BMD systems would be in public domain!!
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

If its true, good news. We need massive BMD coverage across our nation: national capital, financial capital, industrial centres, strategic establishments like BARC, ISRO, DRDO & a separate BMD layer for all our airbases. We can certainly afford it.

I hope there is also a realization that BMD is more likely to be actually used in a conventional conflict. Example: to ward off a massive missile strike against our airbases, which China is likely to do. We have seen instances of Iron Dome usage to protect Israeli civilians. This would entail deputing BMD launch authority to the IAF, as far as airbase protection is concerned.

We would need it for the ammunition depots & other key infra for the IA as well, with their respective BMDs being deputed under IA's command
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25085
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

Pratyush wrote:Multiple you tube channels are reporting that BMD missiles production orders have been placed with BDL. But am not seeing any real news sources.
Quite likely.

In early 2020, our BMD system had reportedly been completed with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) seeking government approval to build, install and activate the system. The IAF and the DRDO were expected to move a joint proposal for the government’s clearance. After the clearance was granted by GoI, it was expected to take 3 years to install the system.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/drdo-fina ... ip-variant

DRDO has submitted a proposal for a 1500 Km range conventional BM with anti-ship capabilities. Not sure why there is a need for a new missile, while Agni-P already had a similar range and a widely suspected anti-ship capability?

Is it to logically separate the Agni series (nuclear armed) vs this new weapon (conventional) - for instance, the Agni's will only be under the command of the SFC, while this one won't? Beats me

However, the good news is that they are confident of a kill-chain extending over 1500 Kms, over water!
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Perhaps the missile is based on the Agni first stage, the kill vehicle will be new. As the wheel dosent have to be reinvented for the new missile.

But this is just speculation on my part.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

"An anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) weapon system is a defensive device or strategy used to prevent an adversary from occupying or traversing an area of land, sea or air."

China DF21 is in this category.

As PLAN moves into the Indian Ocean, India needs capabilities.

Please think broadly and not with blinkers.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

QRSAM Test Fired Successfully. 6 tests conducted.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/techands ... 0aa724ae53

"As per details available, the DRDO and the Indian Army conducted six successful flight tests of QRSAM system from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur off the Odisha coast. DRDO said the flight tests were carried out as part of evaluation trials by the Army.
“Tests were done against high-speed aerial targets mimicking various aerial threats to evaluate the capability of the weapon system under different scenarios including long-range medium altitude, short-range high altitude, maneuvering target and salvo launch with two missiles fired in quick succession,” the DRDO said.

The system was also put to test for performance evaluation under day and night operation scenarios.

The DRDO said the tests were successful and all the mission objectives were met, thereby establishing “pin-point accuracy of the QRSAM weapon system with state-of-the-art guidance and control algorithms including warhead chain”.

Hopefully this will pave the way for the orders and induction of the system.
Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 1116
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Ashokk »

Area warning 23 - 25 September 2022
#Areawarning #India issues a notification for the launch of an experimental flight vehicle
Launch Window | 23 - 25 September 2022
Image
asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 373
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by asbchakri »

Agni Prime?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Could be that 1500km+ new missile for A2/AD.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Could be that 1500km+ new missile for A2/AD.
It will not be surprising if it was. The Indian state has known since the last two years that PRC is the clear and present danger to us.

With Indian capacity to design boosters and payloads. This is the approximate length of time to design the suitable weapon.
Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

prashantsharma wrote:Search hard enough and you can even find newspaper articles mentioning the exact locations :roll:
kit wrote:I don't think any details regarding deployment of BMD systems would be in public domain!!
Quite a bit of information in public domain.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

According to report in Today's Economic Times, EEL Nagpur (Solar Group) has proposed a 250 Kms surface to surface guided rocket/ballistic missile for the Indian Army. They claim the price will be a fraction of the price of Brahmos. Though in my opinion a correct comparison should be the Prahaar/Pranash missile developed by DRDO rather than the Brahmos.

If this is taken up, it will for the first time that a private sector company will be attempting something like this. Would really be game changer, if it comes through and the price is really affordable.
Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 1985
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Atmavik »

mody wrote:According to report in Today's Economic Times, EEL Nagpur (Solar Group) has proposed a 250 Kms surface to surface guided rocket/ballistic missile for the Indian Army. They claim the price will be a fraction of the price of Brahmos. Though in my opinion a correct comparison should be the Prahaar/Pranash missile developed by DRDO rather than the Brahmos.

If this is taken up, it will for the first time that a private sector company will be attempting something like this. Would really be game changer, if it comes through and the price is really affordable.

EEL produces pinaka rockets under license from drdo. If they can do this it will be a big step up
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Who will be providing guidance package?
YashG
BRFite
Posts: 936
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:Who will be providing guidance package?
BEL perhaps.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by ramana »

Usually, it is the military that comes up with what they want.
We want a weapon that can destroy such and such a target at such and such a distance and should work in these environments.

But then it's par for the course for the Indian military to be offered products!!!
Dilbu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8266
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 22:53
Location: Deep in the badlands of BRFATA

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Dilbu »

Indian start-up begins prototype development of aero engine for cruise missiles
Hyderabad-based Paninian India Private Limited has completed the “conceptual validation” of 4.5 KN Turbojet Engine. Ex-DRDO scientist and jet engine experts working on the project.
“We are not doing reverse engineering but we are creating an entire family of aero engines that will be able to power everything from cruise missiles to large UAVs,” Paninian founder Raghu Adla told ThePrint.

The engine is further being developed into a new family in the range of 3-12 kilonewtons (kN) thrust, along with Artificial Intelligence (AI) augmented digital twin companions.

AI augmented Digital Twins are meant for legacy engine performance modelling and prognostics for supporting mission performance and life extension efforts for aircraft like Jaguar, Sukhoi and Mirage 2000 of the Indian Air Force.
Such Digital Twins — required for cutting-edge prognostics, engine health and performance monitoring — have been conceived entirely from scratch in the country by Indian engineers, he said, adding that India can carry out life extension of engines locally and accurately without resorting to foreign assistance.

While Paninin has started setting up an actual test bed for its engine, the plan ahead is for the individual parts of the engine to undergo 2,000 hours of testing at the National Aerospace Laboratory.

Adla decided to work on the project following the 2019 Balakot strike and the subsequent skirmish between the Indian and Pakistani air forces.
For the start-up, he hired Gantayata Gouda, a former senior scientist and programme director in DRDO, along with others who have worked in propulsion and structural engineering with leading global engine manufacturers like General Electrics and Rolls Royce.
Incidentally, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been working on an aero engine in the 4.5kN category, which industry sources say is a reverse engineering of the Russian NPO Saturn 36 MT engine which is used by India.

Industry experts, however, said the effort by the DRDO is not scalable or cannot be modularised to create a family of engines.
titash
BRFite
Posts: 606
Joined: 26 Aug 2011 18:44

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by titash »

Dilbu wrote:Indian start-up begins prototype development of aero engine for cruise missiles
For the start-up, he hired Gantayata Gouda, a former senior scientist and programme director in DRDO, along with others who have worked in propulsion and structural engineering with leading global engine manufacturers like General Electrics and Rolls Royce.
Incidentally, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been working on an aero engine in the 4.5kN category, which industry sources say is a reverse engineering of the Russian NPO Saturn 36 MT engine which is used by India.

Industry experts, however, said the effort by the DRDO is not scalable or cannot be modularised to create a family of engines.
I didn't know India had any "industry experts" for aero engines, given we have no industry OEMs. The only experts are probably in DRDO/HAL which to my knowledge are the only guys to have created a physical gas turbine engine :D
Nalla Baalu
BRFite
Posts: 153
Joined: 24 Aug 2006 07:16
Location: Yerramandi, Dhoolpeta

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Nalla Baalu »

Said private entity gets its head start from talent poached from DRDO and then attempts to denigrate DRDO's effort with innuendos. Paninian needs to learn to let their product speak for itself and not resort to tactics of shooting from shoulders unnamed industrial experts.

P.S. titash saar beat me to it!
Dilbu wrote:Indian start-up begins prototype development of aero engine for cruise missiles
...
For the start-up, he hired Gantayata Gouda, a former senior scientist and programme director in DRDO, along with others who have worked in propulsion and structural engineering with leading global engine manufacturers like General Electrics and Rolls Royce.
Incidentally, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been working on an aero engine in the 4.5kN category, which industry sources say is a reverse engineering of the Russian NPO Saturn 36 MT engine which is used by India.

Industry experts, however, said the effort by the DRDO is not scalable or cannot be modularised to create a family of engines.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20772
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

This is par for the course from Snehesh Philip, one of the usual defence reporters we have. Does little research and just repeats whatever is told to him without an iota of sense. Not his first article full of such rubbish either.

Manik is an in-house effort and is already in trials.
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Vips »

Quick reaction missile induction to be delayed; deficiencies found during trials.

The army's plans to induct Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missiles (QRSAM) for protection of its mobile formations are likely to get further delayed,
with the system underperforming in recent trials and with glaring deficiencies emerging.

Sanctioned in 2014, the project is already running five years behind schedule and corrective measures would be required to meet the operational requirements of the armed forces. Sources aware of the recent trials told ET that deficiencies were observed when it comes to the mobility, surveillance, detection and firing capability of the system.

Image

A detailed questionnaire sent to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was not answered. The research body has claimed that six successful tests were conducted off the Odisha coast.

However, sources said that in the recent validation trials -- carried out between July and September -- the system failed to even detect and engage hovering helicopters at low altitude and minimum range. As attack helicopters are a primary threat to advancing armoured formations, this underperformance by the surveillance radars of the system has raised alarm bells within the establishment.

During the limited Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirement (PSQR) validation trials, the system was observed to have limited mobility due to excessive size and weight, which renders it inefficient to move across uneven terrain with advancing formations. Sources added that the firing success rate was also unimpressive, with only half the missiles hitting the designated targets.

Besides, the trial teams noticed low serviceability of various components of the system, with malfunctions observed in the radar, launcher and command vehicles almost on a daily basis. To meet service requirements and fill a critical operational capability gap in the army, the system will need to go through more rounds of developmental firing and simulation at the earliest.

The QRSAM has been under development for years, with the project to replace OSA-AK weapon systems first approved by the Defence Acquisition Council in June 2012. DRDO was sanctioned Rs 476.43 crore for the design and development of the system in 2014 after it gave an assurance that the process would be completed by 2017. After several hiccups, capability demonstration was given in December 2021 but the present round of validation trials have raised concerns of further delays.
Varoon Shekhar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2178
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Hmmm my spidey sense tells me the above criticism of the Qrsam is an ambush.
Barath
BRFite
Posts: 474
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Barath »

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 383125.cms

TASL's Indigenous loitering munition successfully hits target at Pokhran

The ALS 50 can take off like a quadcopter and transitions into fixed wing mode during flight for long distance travel..

Ignore the pic in the article, looks like they put some random pic.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

Vips wrote:Quick reaction missile induction to be delayed; deficiencies found during trials.

The army's plans to induct Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missiles (QRSAM) for protection of its mobile formations are likely to get further delayed,
with the system underperforming in recent trials and with glaring deficiencies emerging.

Sanctioned in 2014, the project is already running five years behind schedule and corrective measures would be required to meet the operational requirements of the armed forces. Sources aware of the recent trials told ET that deficiencies were observed when it comes to the mobility, surveillance, detection and firing capability of the system.


During the limited Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirement (PSQR) validation trials, the system was observed to have limited mobility due to excessive size and weight, which renders it inefficient to move across uneven terrain with advancing formations. Sources added that the firing success rate was also unimpressive, with only half the missiles hitting the designated targets.

Besides, the trial teams noticed low serviceability of various components of the system, with malfunctions observed in the radar, launcher and command vehicles almost on a daily basis. To meet service requirements and fill a critical operational capability gap in the army, the system will need to go through more rounds of developmental firing and simulation at the earliest.

.
and that i suppose is the answer. No big deal. just some sensationalism. Happens with weapon system development.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25085
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by SSridhar »

The QRSAM issues are
  • Radar related - "the system failed to even detect and engage hovering helicopters at low altitude and minimum range."
  • Missile related - limited mobility due to excessive size and weight, firing success rate was also unimpressive, with only half the missiles hitting the designated targets.
  • Manufacturing & support related - low serviceability of various components of the system, with malfunctions observed in the radar, launcher and command vehicles almost on a daily basis
Here is a history of tests so far:
It was successfully test fired again on 3rd July 2017 and on December 22, 2017. In a successful test on August 4, 2019, two missiles were fired for different altitude and conditions. The test flights had successfully demonstrated their aerodynamics, propulsion, structural performance and high manoeuvring capabilities, the sources added. It was successfully flight tested on Dec. 23, 2019. The missile successfully engaged the aerial target establishing its capability. The MoD release said “With this mission, the developmental trials of the weapon system are successfully completed and the weapon system is expected to be ready for induction by 2021”. After the successful Nov. 13, 2020 test, a defence ministry official said, “The QRSAM system has achieved a major milestone by a direct hit on a Banshee pilotless target aircraft at medium range and medium altitudes”. Another successful test was conducted on Nov. 17, 2020 with a live warhead against a target at medium range. The warheads now use Laser Proximity Fuze (LPF) instead of the Radio Proximity Fuze (RPF) used hitherto. The laser beam ensures the missile cannot be jammed. “The development activity is complete and preparations are on for user trials. The Defence Acquisition Council has given conditional approval,” an official said in December, 2020. On September 8, 2022, DRDO announced that a successful test was concluded with six flight-tests of the Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QRSAM) system from the Integrated Test Range in Chandipur. The flight-tests were carried out against high-speed aerial targets mimicking various types of threats, including long-range medium altitude, short-range high altitude, maneuvering target and salvo launch with two missiles fired in quick succession. The system was also put to test for performance evaluation under day and night operation scenarios.
With so many 'successful' tests, how come we have some basic issues stalling the missile after 5 years?
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20772
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Karan M »

Pubby has a long history of producing pretty dodgy claims. I'd be very skeptical.
SSridhar wrote:The QRSAM issues are
  • Radar related - "the system failed to even detect and engage hovering helicopters at low altitude and minimum range.
Depends on the altitude and range. No radar can fight the curvature of the earth for instance. So if the system does not have mast mounted radars, how is it expected to detect targets which are completely below its scan angles. This issue would affect every ground based system which is of a similar kind (Tor, Pantsir, SpyDer etc). Mast mounted radars compromise mobility. Can't have both.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine ... rones.html
According to the Russian army officer, a low-flying helicopter is the most difficult target for Tor systems. “It is not easy to track the helicopter automatically, as it flies at very low altitudes with terrain following to remain unseen,” Vladislav explains. As the Russian officer said, enemy helicopters actively maneuver with terrain following. The air defense serviceman has literally a fraction of a second, when the helicopter appears on the radar, during which the fire decision must be taken. The battery of Vladislav has already shot down two Ukrainian helicopters.
That apart, if the target is sufficiently close that the curvature does not apply, detecting hovering helicopters vs clutter is a long standing issue for most radar types and can be fixed with signal processing tweaks. Doppler radars figure out targets from clutter via movement. This is an issue as the target (helicopter) is hovering and not moving towards or away from the radar. But it's not hard as an issue as is claimed above. A hovering helicopter's rotors are what allow for the doppler effect to be picked up. This can be addressed via signal processing improvements and can be incorporated into the system.
"[*]Missile related - limited mobility due to excessive size and weight, firing success rate was also unimpressive, with only half the missiles hitting the designated targets.
This could be an issue but for the fact the latest tests were explicitly stated to be successful. Also, the missile is *not* expected to hit the target. It's not a hittile. It's supposed to pass close enough that the proximity fuse activates and shreds the target with shrapnel.

As to limited mobility, again, you get what you aim for. If you want a very mobile but low performance system without long range surveillance radars, then you have to have something like the SLAMRAAM which DRDO can deliver. But then you lose the ability to scan large areas of the battlespace with long range (100km+) radars.
[*]Manufacturing & support related - low serviceability of various components of the system, with malfunctions observed in the radar, launcher and command vehicles almost on a daily basis[/list]
Again, what issues were these and from which timeframe.
A Deshmukh
BRFite
Posts: 515
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 14:24

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by A Deshmukh »

My reading between the words
It was successfully test fired again on 3rd July 2017 and on December 22, 2017.
== engines were tested and it flew. period.

In a successful test on August 4, 2019[/b], two missiles were fired for different altitude and conditions. The test flights had successfully demonstrated their aerodynamics, propulsion, structural performance and high manoeuvring capabilities, the sources added.
== it flew, propulsion worked, it manoevoured,

It was successfully flight tested on Dec. 23, 2019. The missile successfully engaged the aerial target establishing its capability.
== it engaged the target (not hit). only detected and manoevoured.

The MoD release said “With this mission, the developmental trials of the weapon system are successfully completed and the weapon system is expected to be ready for induction by 2021”.
== not ready yet.

After the successful Nov. 13, 2020 test, a defence ministry official said, “The QRSAM system has achieved a major milestone by a direct hit on a Banshee pilotless target aircraft at medium range and medium altitudes”.
== it hit the target first time. (but without warhead)

Another successful test was conducted on Nov. 17, 2020 with a live warhead against a target at medium range. The warheads now use Laser Proximity Fuze (LPF) instead of the Radio Proximity Fuze (RPF) used hitherto. The laser beam ensures the missile cannot be jammed. “The development activity is complete and preparations are on for user trials.
== first time live warhead test. and this was not a user trial.

On September 8, 2022, DRDO announced that a successful test was concluded with six flight-tests of the Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QRSAM) system from the Integrated Test Range in Chandipur. The flight-tests were carried out against high-speed aerial targets mimicking various types of threats, including long-range medium altitude, short-range high altitude, maneuvering target and salvo launch with two missiles fired in quick succession. The system was also put to test for performance evaluation under day and night operation scenarios.
With so many 'successful' tests, how come we have some basic issues stalling the missile after 5 years?
This is the first time in Sept 2022, real complete tests are taking place.
DRDO misuses the word successful and raises everyone's expectations.

The complaints are on radars, transport equipment. fixable.
50% miss on targets: what is the expectation from QRSAM? if 2 missiles are fired to improve kill ratio, one will not hit the target -> 50%

Engineering a new product takes time to mature.
I think this is a good progress so far.
Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Kersi »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Hmmm my spidey sense tells me the above criticism of the Qrsam is an ambush.
A tall story to allow imports
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

The size weight and mobility part, seems to allude to the fact that the system has 3 vehicles and has to stop to fire the missiles. It's a short stop.
Both of these facts have been known from the beginning. The mandate from IA to begin with was a system that can fire on the move and preferably a single vehicle system.

No such system exists in the world, that can offer the kind of radar coverage, missile range and performance, while being a single vehicle system that can fire on the move.

The 'Sources' that Mannu Pubby is quoting are perhaps just using these points to bash the system.
The failure to detect a hovering helicopter is perhaps the most damning of the criticisms, but here too the crucial word is at minimum range!!
What that mandated minimum range is not known specified, but if a hovering helicopter is just too close to the system, flying at minimum altitude, it would be very difficult detect. Similarly a helicopter flying at minimum altitude at longer ranges would also be difficult to detect.

Missiles failing to hit the target is puzzling, as we have made very good progress with our own RF seekers. More info on the same would be needed.

Don't understand IA's obsession about testing for minimum ranges. For all ATGM programs, the performance at minimum range of around 500 meters has been the mandate and IA has insisted on successful tests to demonstrate the same.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Hmmm my spidey sense tells me the above criticism of the Qrsam is an ambush.
Who conducts a missile test without extensive testing of the radar's performance in difference situations?


The last gasp from the import lobby.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Pratyush »

mody wrote: Don't understand IA's obsession about testing for minimum ranges. For all ATGM programs, the performance at minimum range of around 500 meters has been the mandate and IA has insisted on successful tests to demonstrate the same.
Minimum engagement range is necessary because an enemy might sneak up the formation. They might need to engage the enemy at an extremely close range.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by kit »

Well., i presume the purpose of such exercises are to identify, rectify and optimise the system. Why harp on technicalities., or in other words what business has the media in such purports where they have no clue about? Taking some negative results and not talking about the positive ones is not "journalism" ., it is called sensationalism.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by Larry Walker »

One thing that is misused is the concept that if hit probability is 50%, firing 2 missiles will make it 100%. The odds even out when the result set is sufficiently large enough. No maths to prove it but my gut feeling is that firing 2 missiles each with 50% probability does not make 100% hit but much much lesser and the real life effect maybe only slightly improved than 50% (for sake of arguments lets take it as 70%). (And if firing 2 missiles makes it 100%, i will fire 3 missiles and make it 150% like the Pakis :D )
Also if misses have no issue in their propulsion and aerodynamics and end-game seeker - then again it seems like the initial data fed by radar would be more of a cause and so it may again go down to signal processing and predictions.
A Deshmukh
BRFite
Posts: 515
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 14:24

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by A Deshmukh »

if 2 missiles are fired probability of both missiles missing is 25%. assuming 50% probability for each missile.
this 50% comes from the stray comment, that half of the missiles failed to hit.
rigorous testing under different conditions is required. we know of only 6 tests.
without data, we cannot conclude on the accuracy and limitations.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Post by mody »

What's the difference between the QRSAM and VLSRSAM? Both are supposed to have a very quick reaction time. The VL-SRSAM is meant for the Navy and the Airforce, whereas the QRSAM is meant for the army. Primarily the VLSRSAM is to be used from static positions from the vertical launcher or from naval ships from a vertical launcher. Both missiles are supposed to have a fast acceleration, as the VLSRSAM is expected to tackle sea skimming anti-ship missiles.
We know that the VLSRSAM is based on the Astra missile. Is the basic QRSAM missile also based on the Astra missile? From the pictures released so far, it doesn't seem to have the smokeless propellant like the Astra. The seeker for both the missiles could be similar.

The main difference between the two systems could be the radar, as for QRSAM it needs to be a mobile unit, but the basic missiles could probably be the same or almost the same. However, from the photos this doesn't seem to be the case.
Post Reply