Defence Expo 2004

Rudra
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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rudra » 09 Feb 2004 22:04

who was displaying the Sylver VLS? did anyone ask
about ongoing sales to india..?

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Priyank » 10 Feb 2004 02:43

Kersiji,

Is the Tarang RWR installed on the MKI?

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby JaiS » 10 Feb 2004 09:53


MN Kumar
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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby MN Kumar » 10 Feb 2004 10:41

Rupak there seems to be a problem in the MSN groups site. Pictures are not showing up.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby ehsmang » 10 Feb 2004 11:57

Yes, Negev was in the OFB booth. Yours truly pointed it to our resident small arms expert and confirmed it with the OFB person standing nearby.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Sanjay » 10 Feb 2004 13:00

Negev in OFB stall ? Curiouser and Curiouser.

So is Negev LMG in production at the OFB for the IA or was it simply that they borrowed it to jazz up the OFB stall ?

Seriously, if OFB is really producing Negev for IA, it's very, very interesting.

Wonder if we'll see the Tavors produced there too ?

Oh - all 3400 Tavors for the Para SF have been delivered.

Any more small arms photos ?

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Raj Malhotra » 10 Feb 2004 16:49

Well Sanjay if you want to be exact then there was a 5.56mm belt fed LMG on the OFB that the gent there confirmed was Israeli design and not an upgrade of INSAS LMG. So we are assuming it is Negev. Though it looked better and sexier than one on Israeli stand.

INSAS LMG is being produced at the rate of around 8000 per annum for around 3 years now. Interestingly USMC has taken out a requirement of INSAS type LMG to supercede/supplement their SAW/Minimi.

My guess is that each section will have one INSAS and one Negev.

OFB has also taken out new INSAS models which black and more ergonomic called escaliber.

The INSAS carbine was there with better looks and ergonomics but the gent standing next to it did not know anything about it. Oddly it seemed to have a 9mm mag while the receiver said 5.56mm. I suppose the things will clarify on next def expo. What is your info on the carbine??

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby ks_sachin » 10 Feb 2004 17:48


Vick
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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Vick » 10 Feb 2004 17:54

Trishul carrier
First time I am seeing the Trishul carrier for the IA. Cool beans. I guess, the platform will be changed from the BMP1 to the T-72 chassis?

One is the loneliest number...
Wouldn't it be a bit more effective to have an electro optical sensor suite up there rather than a human?

George J

Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby George J » 10 Feb 2004 18:53

Originally posted by Vick:
Trishul carrier
First time I am seeing the Trishul carrier for the IA. Cool beans. I guess, the platform will be changed from the BMP1 to the T-72 chassis?

One is the loneliest number...
Wouldn't it be a bit more effective to have an electro optical sensor suite up there rather than a human?
That trishul model looks like the the real thing. Which BTW is posted on BR. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/Trishul4.jpg

I agree why is a man stuck on a pole? As a matter of fact WTF is that vechile anyway? Not only will the poor bloke have to deal with the elements up there, but his potential potency peter out if he is on that pole when some some hi powered radio/radar is transmitting.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Vick » 10 Feb 2004 19:06

It's sometimes baffling to see the IA mindset be bent towards being labor intensive rather than tech intensive. Oh well, I guess the man-on-the-pole mobile must have some utility or why else would the IA want it?

Which begs the question, have the IA actually inducted or plan to induct that vehicle? It seems to be made by Hitachi+JVP. Maybe they are just trying to hawk it.

But anyways... <u>I have a dream</u> to see the Pinaka be fitted on the Arjun chassis.

Arjun, Bhim, & Pinaka-Bhim shall ride the sands of Rajasthan. Let it be written...

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Cybaru » 10 Feb 2004 19:18

Why does it say, version II for pinaka ?

What changed ? When did this happen ?

Pinaka Version II

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Umrao » 10 Feb 2004 19:20

Thanks !!

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Div » 10 Feb 2004 19:43

Originally posted by cy_baru:
Why does it say, version II for pinaka ?

What changed ? When did this happen ?

Pinaka Version II
I think the "Version 2" here just refers to the pictures - this is picture number 2 (different angle than the first).

added: I noticed that there are 3 picutures...and 2 version 2s, so who knows.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rudra » 10 Feb 2004 20:43

the pinaka of today is different in atleast 3
ways from kargil_pinaka
* army wanted its salvo dispersion to be tightened.the israeli device shown in defexpo does that.
* army wanted its reload time cut down.I am sure
that has been done in the 4.5 yrs. ideally the
whole six tube "box" ought to be like a magazine
which is just clipped into place and replaced by
other pre-loaded mags. delinks the slower magazine loading process from the "plug and play" part permitting a ready supply of 6-round boxes to be kept.
in BM21 and Smerch the individual tubes are reloaded. in us army MLRS I think the box concept is used.
* a full spec land-nav and Commlink would now be
installed to permit deployment as member of active
formation, not a isolated prototype anymore.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby ramana » 10 Feb 2004 23:56

Ashok Mehta in Pioneer, 2/10/2004............
FM's feel-good defence bounty

Ashok K mehta

Fulfilling a promise made to the Armed forces more than five years ago, Finance Minister Jaswant Singh in his 2004-05 vote-on-account, unveiled a big gift to them: The Defence Modernisation Fund. The fund will be non-lapsable (for that reason, administered by the Reserve Bank of India rather than the Ministry of Defence) and capital funds unutilised by the services will flow into the fund, on the premise that long gestation periods for defence procurement predicate a long term commitment of funds. The fund will pay for defence imports and will have a corpus of at least Rs 25,000 crore to be built up over the next three years.




This will set to rest permanently, taunts hurled at the services for being handmaidens of the bureaucratic system and perennially being made to return money to the Consolidated Fund of India, after being denied the right to spend it in the first place. In the 2003-2004 Budget for instance, the services returned Rs 9000 crore to the Government and saved its bacon. Without this money, North Block would not have been able to balance its books. In tandem with the outlay in the vote-on-account, was more good news. The biennial Defexpo 2004 for land and naval systems attracted unprecedented participation both local and foreign. Defexpos over the years have served to showcase India's defence capabilities and prove that defence undertakings are not just money-spending but also money-earning entities. As with the Defence Modernisation Fund, so also with the Defexpo, the Government revealed a more modern outlook to defence spending, showing itself ready to invest money in defence if this meant more sensible utilisation of funds. This is an encouraging sign.



What did Defexpo 2004 tell us about India and the world in relation to equipment manufacture and export? Because governments are still the most important procurers of defence equipment but are getting out of the production loop by leaving that part of it to private manufacturers, most countries have confederations of defence equipment-producing companies that are aggressively backed by Government. Britain, Israel, Russia and France are just a few. India is rapidly getting there and the participation of private industry in the Defexpo increased over 115 per cent over the last one, showing how much the domestic defence industry had grown since foreign direct investment was permitted in defence. Mr George Fernandes said that ordnance factories sold equipment worth Rs 869 crore to non-defence customers and in the financial year 2003-04, their sales were expected to touch Rs 944 crore. He also said India's export earnings had gone up from US$ 17.4 million in 1999-2000 to US $ 47 million in 2002-03. In the last five years, the export earning of Hindustan Aeronauticals Limited (HAL) had been US $ 69.24 million but for the current year alone, was expected to be US $42.5 million.



But exhibitions like Defexpo are not just money-making opportunities for countries. They are strategic opportunities to tell the world where nations have reached in armament-system production, assess what security need of which nation could be addressed through a piece of equipment and project the idea of defence equipment manufacture capability as a military force multiplier. In Defexpo 2004, the sections put up by Israel, Britain, Russia and France were interesting not just because of what they wanted to show in India, but also the kind of equipment they were interested in producing that in turn indicated the turn modern warfare was taking.



First the equipment. This Defexpo showed a disproportionate interest in heavy armour and all-terrain vehicles. Indian Government-owned entities as well as private manufacturers like the Tatas and Mahindra and Mahindra displayed various kinds of retrofitted anti-landmine all terrain vehicles, suggesting these companies visualised a greater policing role for the Army. Indian defence industry clearly thinks there is a market for tough IED-proof fourwheelers. The display of tanks like the Arjun showed how much ground India still has to cover with the increasing use of technology in the battlefield, are not tanks and heavy armour going to become a thing of the past?



By contrast, Singapore, which showed in Defexpo for the first time, showcased its Light Strike Vehicles (LSV), a brilliant example of how heavy armour has conceptually modified itself to contemporary needs. Singapore needed for its minimal Army, a vehicle that is at once fast and capable of intense fire power. The LSV is light enough to be lifted by a Puma helicopter it achieves this by modified design. A vehicle that has no sides, it can seat upto three people and can move at 100 km an hour, mounted with the most sophisticated artillery systems. So while those sitting in it are exposed to risk, its speed makes it a moving target and ideal in dealing with rioting or insurgency. By contrast, the Indian-made tanks and armoured vehicles appeared ponderous, slow-moving and elephantine, sitting ducks for precision-firing munitions.



The Russian display was designed for an Indian audience. A range of Russian-made tactical land missiles arrayed in the exhibition was calculated to sprinkle salt on Indian wounds. Indian missiles are characterised by obsolescence and hounded by the problem of non-availability of spares. They are either indigenously produced (the Trishul which failed and led to the import of the Israeli Barak) or imported from Russia. In this exhibition, however, Russia proclaimed that it had restructured its defence industry and was now offering missiles on a commercial basis. The costing was not on friendship-price basis, but they were guaranteed to work this was the message from the Russian pavilion.



The Indian defence relationship with Russia has withstood the test of time and perestroika. But the tricky problem of 1500 T-72 MIs in the Indian Army that need to be upgraded remains. Funds have to be divided between upgrading these tanks (not cheap) and the purchase of new state of the art T-90s (re-christened Bhishma) at a cost of Rs 12-13 crore each. There was some controversy surrounding the upgrade of the T-72s. Hopefully, this has been resolved. The Israeli display was interesting for what it did not show, rather than for what it did. We know that Israel is highly developed in Unarmed Aerial Vehicle (UAV) technology. But although India had the Nishant, the indigenously developed UAV, on display, why did Israel not show its UAVs? The Barak naval missile was on display as were other Israel-developed missiles. A range of electronic surveillance equipment was also on display. The French pavilion had a big presence but is worried about future negotiations with India. The Indian Navy wants six pieces of the Scorpene submarine. This is manufactured by the French firm DCN that has also supplied to Pakistan, a submarine called Agosta, made under licence production at a shipyard in Karachi.



What India wants is the Scorpene that has some of the features of the Agosta, including a crucial air breathing apparatus for which batteries can be changed underwater. France says the agreement with Pakistan has a clause saying technology cannot be transferred and sold to anyone else, so they would not be able to give that technology to India. "Then why should we buy it at all" say the Indians. Negotiations are continuing. The French presence at Defexpo was somewhat subdued as a result.



The British have latched on to the Line of Control (LOC) problem between India and Pakistan as a market for the HALO, the world's most advanced system of acoustic detection of fire and precise counterfire. India can do with this equipment on the Line of Control (LoC) where misdirected firing can lead to huge losses. Scores of soldiers die from firing on both sides. HALO was on display at the Defexpo, along with live demonstrations by a group of British Army soldiers on how to prevent infiltration using sensors developed by British companies. 9/11 and the war in Iraq have shown us that in future even conventional wars will end as wars against terrorism. India needs to address this. Defexpo missed this point.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby JCage » 11 Feb 2004 00:05

Missing the wood for the trees...aparently the strides made in the Trishul and Pinaka etc have been lost on the good general.

Man, instead of just noting the finance stuff which any chap can glean in a few minutes from assorted sources, why dont these blokes post more inetersting data as to whats currently going on.

Defexpo was partially set up to "show off" India's own armaments industry. These chaps and the usual DDM are yet to get that.

Half a dOzen articles on the silly Ak 47 vs A7 fracas. Apart from that, nothing else. :roll:

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Ashutosh » 11 Feb 2004 00:16

Is that the same Maj. Gen. Ashok Mehta?


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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby srai » 11 Feb 2004 01:10

Originally posted by ramana:
Ashok Mehta in Pioneer, 2/10/2004............
FM's feel-good defence bounty

Ashok K mehta
...
IMO, from looking at the pictures posted of the Defense Expo, the focus seems to be in these areas:

* Artillery (& related equipment)
* Electronic Warfare and surveillance
* Engineering vehicles & equipment
* Light & protected high mobility vehicles (for CI & SF duties)
* Indigenous efforts

These make sense as IA's focus currently (based on the numerous news reports published) is on modernizing (and standardizing) equipment related to armored vehicles, artillery, counter-insurgency and special forces.

But to give Mehta credit, there is a need for people like him in the high-ranking brass to advocate for lighter, highly mobile, information centric IA, in reflection of the trend the Western armies are moving towards.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby JCage » 11 Feb 2004 01:21

The question is : does the west always do what is relevant to India? If we are into overseas force projection and all that fancy stuff, then it makes sense investing in strykers and the like , until then it makes more sense upgrading what we have to state of the art- that includes all them ponderous tanks which the general doesnt like. When we can field the plethora of assets the US can, sure..then we can have dinky li'l ultra mobile brigades depending on firepower called in from afar..till then, it has to be the reliance on what we have, honed to a cutting edge..such as the ubiquitous tank.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby JCage » 11 Feb 2004 07:07

Originally posted by George J:
Originally posted by Vick:
[b]Trishul carrier
First time I am seeing the Trishul carrier for the IA. Cool beans. I guess, the platform will be changed from the BMP1 to the T-72 chassis?

One is the loneliest number...
Wouldn't it be a bit more effective to have an electro optical sensor suite up there rather than a human?
That trishul model looks like the the real thing. Which BTW is posted on BR. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/Trishul4.jpg

I agree why is a man stuck on a pole? As a matter of fact WTF is that vechile anyway? Not only will the poor bloke have to deal with the elements up there, but his potential potency peter out if he is on that pole when some some hi powered radio/radar is transmitting.[/b]
Probably some kind of maintenance vehicle for dealing with radars or the like or even TEL missiles, which would require a man high up...perhaps that's where the observation comes from.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rudra » 11 Feb 2004 07:28

to terrify the PA we dont need these stryker-shyker things...need heavy armoured divs as on central front in germany supported by vast nos of helicopters and CAS a/c.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Cybaru » 11 Feb 2004 07:31

Need Heli based UAV's with front tactical units to scout the forward areas. Followed by Horizon kind of system with each division to get real time SAR data.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby shiv » 11 Feb 2004 08:10

Originally posted by ks_sachin:
French Website Gallery on Defexpo 04
Interesting to note that vehile makers like Mahindra, Tata and Bajaj are competing for military small-medium vehicles.

What on earth is <a href="http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Asie/Inde/Exhibition/Defexpo_2004_India/pictures/Flyer_Bionix_DefExpo_2004_India_01.jpg">this?</a> :eek:

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rupak » 11 Feb 2004 08:12

Originally posted by cy_baru:
Why does it say, version II for pinaka ?

What changed ? When did this happen ?

Pinaka Version II
The two Pinaka are identical, except one has DC powered drives and the other has AC powered ones. DRDO will productionize whichever type gains acceptability. Pinaka has completed LSP. There are now 4 + 4 + 8 Pinakas.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby JCage » 11 Feb 2004 08:17

Originally posted by rupak:
Originally posted by cy_baru:
[b]Why does it say, version II for pinaka ?

What changed ? When did this happen ?

Pinaka Version II
The two Pinaka are identical, except one has DC powered drives and the other has AC powered ones. DRDO will productionize whichever type gains acceptability. Pinaka has completed LSP. There are now 4 + 4 + 8 Pinakas.[/b]
Anymore on order or is that the order? Two regs worth of Pinaka?

Also what news on....Arjun? Did they talk about the crew protection stuff?

:)

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rupak » 11 Feb 2004 08:19

Originally posted by Vick:

But anyways... <u>I have a dream</u> to see the Pinaka be fitted on the Arjun chassis.

That Hitachi JVP is in the 'hawking' stage. There were few military types hanging around that!

A pinaka on an arjun would be prohibitively expensive and a waste.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby JCage » 11 Feb 2004 08:19

Originally posted by shiv:
Originally posted by ks_sachin:
[b]French Website Gallery on Defexpo 04
Interesting to note that vehile makers like Mahindra, Tata and Bajaj are competing for military small-medium vehicles.

What on earth is <a href="http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Asie/Inde/Exhibition/Defexpo_2004_India/pictures/Flyer_Bionix_DefExpo_2004_India_01.jpg">this?</a> :eek: [/b]
Caption says Bionix flyer from Singapore..

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Manne » 11 Feb 2004 08:23

Note that the article above gives the figure of 12-13 crores for T-90 i.e. USD 2.89 mil

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rudra » 11 Feb 2004 08:23

> Pinaka has completed LSP. There are now 4 + 4 + 8 Pinakas.

sweetest news of the year.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rupak » 11 Feb 2004 08:24


Div
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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Div » 11 Feb 2004 08:24

Caption says Bionix flyer from Singapore...
Looks like something out of Mad Max. Would probably make an interesting addition for Spec Forces.

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Cybaru » 11 Feb 2004 08:28

Originally posted by rupak:
The two Pinaka are identical, except one has DC powered drives and the other has AC powered ones. DRDO will productionize whichever type gains acceptability. Pinaka has completed LSP. There are now 4 + 4 + 8 Pinakas.
I presume there are 36 in a regiment?

The new pin-point accuracy blurb, does that need laser designation or is it some other method ? Kosher to talk about that or is it hush hush ?
Any new type of warheads ?

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Manne » 11 Feb 2004 08:30

Pinaka has completed LSP. There are now 4 + 4 + 8 Pinakas.
Sorry but what is the significance of the breakup ?

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Cybaru » 11 Feb 2004 08:31

Originally posted by rupak:
[QB]I am surprised people missed this:

http://groups.msn.com/BharatRakshakDefexpo/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=48[/ QB]
Isn't that the Agni laucher ?

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rupak » 11 Feb 2004 08:32

Originally posted by cy_baru:
I presume there are 36 in a regiment?
[/QB]
No there are 12

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Rupak » 11 Feb 2004 08:33

Originally posted by Manne:
Sorry but what is the significance of the breakup ?
Developmental Prototypes + Pre-production + LSP

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby Cybaru » 11 Feb 2004 08:34

Since we have rupak on a roll...

Who was hawking this ?

coast guard cutter

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Re: Defence Expo 2004

Postby JCage » 11 Feb 2004 08:51

Originally posted by rupak:
[QB]I am surprised people missed this:

http://groups.msn.com/BharatRakshakDefexpo/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=48[/ QB]
No I didnt, but being an achaa bachaa I kept nice and silent...anyway, Agni TEL..


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