1st Chennai Airshow - 2003


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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Div » 26 Sep 2003 21:02

Excellent!

It seems that the IAF has successfully transitioned most of its aircraft & choppers to the low-viz grey color scheme.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Rudra » 26 Sep 2003 21:20

hmmm...and all mig29s are finally adder capable.
means the radar upg is done and each can engage
2 targets in parallel.

the part on fuel tanks in interesting....

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Cybaru » 26 Sep 2003 22:30

Cool stuff.. nice to know 1700 Km journey with possibly some more fuel to spare.

I am just surprised at all the info you managed to gather. You sure you not pumping them truth serum :) . IAF is getting less and less shy about its toys.

Thanks Harry.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Rangudu » 26 Sep 2003 22:41

Harry. I'm glad enthu guys like you are at BR. Keep up the good work.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby SSridhar » 26 Sep 2003 23:11

Harry, excellent photos and writeup. I happened to be in Chennai on that date and was able to videocam the rehearsal and the finale. Of course amatuer quality.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby JE Menon » 26 Sep 2003 23:27

Great stuff Harry. Thanks

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Aditya_M » 26 Sep 2003 23:37

Beautiful!!

Harry - the part on the FOD doors...

Don't the Baaz have the louvers on above the LERX that can suck in the air for the engine while taxiing? I recall there is a photo too of the Baaz taxiing with them, on the cover of Akash Yodhha or some such...

And GREAT to know that all of them are Adder capable *insert evil laugh here*

Also the M2K doesn't have HMS at all or is it not used?

Thanks again!

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Rudra » 26 Sep 2003 23:48

the Mig29s rough field capability is supposed to
come from these louvre doors. I wonder if some
air flow limitations means one has to go on afterburner to use these louvres ? or something else that makes using them a compromise ?

smells like iaf is quietly updating the 29s to
SMTish standards. the fuel load was their biggest
drawback. a semi-glass cockpit and Hotas would help too.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Sanjay » 27 Sep 2003 00:30

Harry, was the fact that all MiG-29s are now R-77 capable from IAF sources in Chennai ?

Have all of them now been fitted with N0-19 radars ?

Apparently, of all the export customers for MiG-29s, the IAF was the sole recipient of full standard aircraft.

Great stuff as usual. Harry - you're really good.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby rhytha » 27 Sep 2003 00:35

Harry if you are in chennai, plz contact me? :D

mail me at muthukumar@rhytha.com or call 26561032 :cool:

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Harry » 27 Sep 2003 01:32

Have all of them now been fitted with N0-19 radars ?
They did'nt like to speak much on local upgrades, denied that anything major was carried out. However, it's pretty apparent that a level of tweaking was carried out.

Sanjay, the N019 'Slot back' is the standard fit on all MiG-29A 9.12. The improved versions ie the 9.12S(E/D) and the 9.13S received the much improved N019M 'Topaz'(with dual target engagement capability, Ts.101M digital computer and more memory). I did'nt launch any further query as to which version was being used since the question on Chibber's dual paki F-16 lock on over Kargil was evaded. What is confirmed is that all MiG-29s of the IAF can feild R-77s.

Harry - the part on the FOD doors...

Don't the Baaz have the louvers on above the LERX that can suck in the air for the engine while taxiing? I recall there is a photo too of the Baaz taxiing with them, on the cover of Akash Yodhha or some such...
Good question. Apparently they were'nt of much help and that's why they were deleted in the later MiG-29 versions in favour of additional fuel. Still, this does'nt protect those large inlets from all types of FOD. For real anti-FOD, the engine inlets had shutter doors with two hinges each which automatically open/close the inlets depending on the hydraulic pressure and work in combination with the louvers. Apparently this system was'nt completely effective either until further improved.

Also the M2K doesn't have HMS at all or is it not used?
They don't have any HMS at all.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby srai » 27 Sep 2003 04:01

Didn't someone record this on video?

Three Su-30Ks during the Sept.6 fly past over Marina - the world's second longest natural beach. The leader pulled up for a vertical Charlie and was later joined by a second Flanker. They proceed to simulate a CAP over an Indian Navy Khukri class corvette that patroled the area. When a lone MiG-29 came in to act as "aggressor" it was quickly outturned and defeated!
... who has it??? :whine:

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby vverma » 27 Sep 2003 13:13

The snippets of information were great, like icing on the cake. Not that I would eat the icing normally...on the cake that is...to fatty you see... argghhhh

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Sanjay » 27 Sep 2003 13:19

Thanks Harry.
Well to make them compatible with R-77s there had to be a lot of tweaking.

Harry, out of curiousity, how come we never see MiG-27s carrying air-to-surface missiles ?

I saw your post on the HAL upgrade at the AFM forum but will the upgrade include radar ?

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Sree » 27 Sep 2003 13:53

Harry -- even though you don't need me to add, to everyone else saying so -- brilliant stuff!!

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Aditya G » 27 Sep 2003 13:59

A ISO9000 job, Harry. A very *thorough* report. Reading the comments was an absolute delight. The complete feel is very pro.

some questions:

[1] What is the purpose of that wave shaped wall? (behind the Kiran?)

[2] Why concrete blocks have been tied to the aircraft? I have seen this in many pix, including older ones.

[3] Most pictures look very 'hazy'...any idea why?
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/chn_mir3.jpg
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/ch_isk2.jpg

while these two are basically perfect:

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/chn_mir4.jpg
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/an-32_001.jpg

I have some more which I'll ask later.

Harry, out of curiousity, how come we never see MiG-27s carrying air-to-surface missiles ?
Actually we never see the MiG-27 itself. Of all the airshows that have happened in 2003. The ML was not to be seen in any single one. Fortunately the even rarer MiG-23MF/UM was seen @ Jamnagar and the Garuda Ex respectively.

But the MiG-27ML is compatible with PGMs. Actually it was the first in the IAF - non-upgraded ones are equipped with a CRT display for KH-29L and KAB ops

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Sanjay » 27 Sep 2003 14:07

Thanks Harry.
I've seen one with a Kh-25MP anti-radiation missile.
I wonder if the rest of the Kh-23 and Kh-25 families are used ?

However, the first PGM equipped IAF aircraft were the MiG-21 MFs which were supplied with an upgraded export version of the Kh-23 - the X-66 missile.

What about the upgrade - will it have radar or is it as yet undecided ?

Thanks for a great photo essay and superb captions.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Aditya G » 27 Sep 2003 17:13

Overall, I am a bit disappointed with the Chennai airshow - not much is new compared to earlier shows in the year. I suppose thats going to happen when you have too much of a good thing -

No R77
No KAB-500
No Su-30MKI (but 015 is also good!)
K2709 - repeat from Hyderabad
JS175 - repeat from Hyderabad

2 corrections -

[a] The IAF Hinds are equipped with a 12.7 mm cannon. The 30 mm monster is seen only on those in which the same is fixed to the side and cannot be steered.

[b] There is no KB309 in the MiG-29 fleet. The Fulcrum-As are all KB7XX while the Fulcrum-Cs are KB3xxx. Which means that this machine is either a KB709 or probably a KB3109 (which is a confirmed serial BTW). Vikas Mathur has also made the similar mistake in his airliners.net descriptions - the Hyderabad machine was a KB3123 and not KB323.

On the issue of FOD grills and doors-

The MiG-29 has FOD doors that are closed not only during taxi, but also during take-off. All this while the engines such air from the doors above. However, this did not prove to be effective because small stones still got into the engines! How? well apparently the pebbles (kicked up by the front wheels) used to get stuck in the edges of door and intake, and when the doors opened up in flight they got sucked in. This was remedied by putting a simple FOD guard in the front wheels - which were not included when they were delivered to us.

Anoher reason why our MiGs saw teething problems was due to the poor quality of construction of these machines. Bits and pieces of the airframe and engines - including bolts used to loosen out and pass thru the engines - with predictable consequences. We are lucky that during those times we didnt face the same results (crashes) like our brothers across the border had with their Falcons.

The situation was only aggravted since no one was around to help the IAF or was asking for too much money for the spares. I suppose that the Su-30 doesnt need these doors due to the relative position of the wheels and intakes and absolute ground clearence.

Harry,

If you have not put the serial number in the report, can we assume that you also dont know it (Do-228, Avro visitor, Chetak vic formation etc) I am especially eager to know the grey Avro number.

Also, whats that LDP on the Mirage? Looks like a Atlis to me.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Harry » 28 Sep 2003 00:59

Originally posted by Sanjay:

Harry, out of curiousity, how come we never see MiG-27s carrying air-to-surface missiles ?

I saw your post on the HAL upgrade at the AFM forum but will the upgrade include radar ?
Well, acc. to them, the whole issue of the IAF's air to surface missile inventory is sensitive. But even Su-30Ks are said to be fully ASM capable.

Nevertheless, there's a Kh-25MP w/ MiG-27 pic on BR itself.

I really have'nt seen any references to the podded Komar radar for the MiG-27ML since Aero-India 1996. I frankly feel that would be waste since the MiG-27ML is a low level mudmover that absolutely needs the centerline tank for any meaningful range.

However, the first PGM equipped IAF aircraft were the MiG-21 MFs which were supplied with an upgraded export version of the Kh-23 - the X-66 missile.
The Zvezda Kh-23 Grom has probably been phased out now. It was actually supposed to be used by MiG-23BNs and MiG-27s so it's news to me that MiG-21MFs had them. It used radio command guidance so's not exactly a PGM.

What is the purpose of that wave shaped wall? (behind the Kiran?)
Jet blast deflector.

Most pictures look very 'hazy'...any idea why?
Environment. :lol:

There are upto 5 hours of gap between some photos. Big deal. I personally like that fog feel.

No R77
No KAB-500
The Bison is carrying one though not visible. (You'll eventually get to see it at BR) A 'mini' KAB-500Kr has been placed in front of the Bison.

What's so great about them? We've seen too much of that already.

No Su-30MKI (but 015 is also good!)
Too much MKI as well. The Ks and MKs will be gone soon!

Also, whats that LDP on the Mirage? Looks like a Atlis to me.
Atlis-II

If you have not put the serial number in the report, can we assume that you also dont know it (Do-228, Avro visitor, Chetak vic formation etc) I am especially eager to know the grey Avro number.
Do-228 is HM-671. Chetaks are Z488,Z440 and Z79x.

Will add these and make the corrections. However, I'm 90% sure that it's KB309 and not KB3109.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby amarnath » 28 Sep 2003 08:58

Originally posted by SSridhar:
Harry, excellent photos and writeup. I happened to be in Chennai on that date and was able to videocam the rehearsal and the finale. Of course amatuer quality.
Sridhar
I think i need to talk to you.Can you please mail me @ amarnath_g@msn.com

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Guest » 28 Sep 2003 09:33

Great pictures harry. Lovely to see the SU 30K, something that i have never seen and photographed when i was in India. The pictures at the hyd airshow wernt all that good, atleast the first 2 rolls, i had to wait till the evening to get some good shots, aero india was great though... saw some great stuff. there was an airshow in singapore here 2 weeks ago and it was fun, f16s,f5s and A4s, the KC135 is truely impressive and massive, got to go inside and have a close look at it, as with the F16,got to sit inside it...
Keep up the great work
will be havin a look at the Finnish F18s next year..
regards
vikas

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby shiv » 28 Sep 2003 13:11

Great photos and report.

What is the olive green munition wearing the red condom at right in this photo

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/chn_mir4_s.jpg

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Sanjay » 28 Sep 2003 13:47

Harry, I think that photo in BR is of a KH-23 or a member of the Kh-25 family but may not be a Kh-25MP.

As I said, the real question was whether the rest of the Kh-25 family is used.

What's your e-mail address ?

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Aditya G » 28 Sep 2003 16:21

What is the olive green munition wearing the red condom at right in this photo
Belouga Cluster Munition

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Jagan » 28 Sep 2003 20:58

Hi Harry,

Good work as usual (not that you need to hear it from me AGAIN..but to put it on record)

Its not KB309 but either KB3108 or KB3109

Jagan

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Harry » 28 Sep 2003 23:52

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Harry, I think that photo in BR is of a KH-23 or a member of the Kh-25 family but may not be a Kh-25MP.

As I said, the real question was whether the rest of the Kh-25 family is used.

What's your e-mail address ?
This one is most certainly a Kh-25MP anti radiation missile.

Mail to harry_digital@hawaii.com

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby NRao » 29 Sep 2003 01:21

Harry,

Are you sure about:

But even Su-30Ks are said to be fully ASM capable.
TIA.

(The first 8 were 30Ks, air superiority. Thought they did not have AG capability. BR site implies the MKs were supposed to, but IIRC even they did not. Not until we got the MKI did we get true AG capability.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby merlin » 29 Sep 2003 12:48

<I>>>(The first 8 were 30Ks, air superiority. Thought they did not have AG capability. BR site implies the MKs were supposed to, but IIRC even they did not. Not until we got the MKI did we get true AG capability.</I>

IIRC, the first 8 were Su30MKs, not Su30Ks. They are air superiority. The next 10, originally meant for Indonesia, are Su30Ks. They have air-to-ground capability as do the MKIs. But was is mentioned officially at least is that Su30Ks have a "limited" air-to-ground capability, unlike the MKI which is supposed to have a full multi-role capability.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby NRao » 30 Sep 2003 00:28

Merlin, per Thomas Andrews (From Spring 2003 issue of International Air Power), both the Ks and MKs were supposed to come as-is from their (RU) factories. That is, what the RUAF was to get, we were supposed to get. If that is the case, then the first 8, which were Ks, were not supposed to have any AG capabilities, the MKs "some" (as compared to the MKIs - the assumption - on my part - is that the "western" capabilities of the MKI is "superior" to that of the RUians, thus MKI > MK even in similar capabilities).

Not that it really matters.

(The reason India decided to go with the gradual upgrades - if one can call it that - was so that the Indian pilots would adjust to the aircrafts, etc, etc, etc. It is said that there is a hugh diff between the Ks and MKIs and that the MKs provide some amount of transitional comfort.)

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Jagan » 30 Sep 2003 12:43

Is ACIG Down? i am not able to access the above pages or the forum

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Harry » 04 Oct 2003 18:34

Alright, the final part has been uploaded,

ICAS 2003 Report - Part 5

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_238.shtml

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Aditya G » 04 Oct 2003 18:53

Hi nice work again

This setup has been taken from and is used for instructional purposes at the IAF's Instructor Training Academy at Tambaram, located just a few miles away from the city (and venue).
What was the venue of the Static display? It isnt mentioned in the report (duh!). I had assumed that the venue was Tambaram AFS... :confused:

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby SSridhar » 04 Oct 2003 19:17

aditya.g, the venue was the old Meenambakkam Airport.

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Re: 1st Chennai Airshow - 2003

Postby Harry » 06 Oct 2003 23:43

Merlin, per Thomas Andrews (From Spring 2003 issue of International Air Power), both the Ks and MKs were supposed to come as-is from their (RU) factories. That is, what the RUAF was to get, we were supposed to get. If that is the case, then the first 8, which were Ks, were not supposed to have any AG capabilities, the MKs "some" (as compared to the MKIs - the assumption - on my part - is that the "western" capabilities of the MKI is "superior" to that of the RUians, thus MKI > MK even in similar capabiliti
Niranjan, those pages are among the best but not neccesarily 100% accurate. For example, the RWR on the Flankers themselves are capable of cueing ARMs like the Kh-31 to their targets. You don't need much to fire the Kh-29T either.(TV guidance)

I had assumed that the venue was Tambaram AFS...
The very last pic was taken at Tambaram AFS. The 'feel' of the base is actually quite different, like a valley surrounded by hills and greenery. It was raining on that particular day so it felt like a hill station. Lots of people say that it's a small base but that is'nt quite true. ;)

BTW The second avro's serial is most prolly H-1516.

Sanjay,

What's the status of the S300 in Indian inventory? You never mention them in your Air-defence articles. Also, in one of your articles (4th largest AF), you mentioned that the MiG-29s could feild the Super-530D. Can you expatiate?


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