Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Rajit
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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rajit » 07 Feb 2003 00:18

Shiv

The air defence thingy is a ZSU-23-4 Schilka...old now....wonder why they are showcasing it.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Muns » 07 Feb 2003 00:22

Good Pics of DHRUV MKI etc :
http://www.indiavarta.com/

SARAS VIDEO :
http://www.indiavarta.com/broadband/

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Amitabh » 07 Feb 2003 00:23

Come on now, boys, where is it?!
http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/feb/06aero1.htm
Defence Minister George Fernandes unveiled an all-metal life size mock-up of the LCH at the air show on Wednesday at the HAL pavilion. The LCH incorporates a number of stealth features and crashworthy landing gear for better survivability.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Sridhar » 07 Feb 2003 00:40

From the above Rediff article linked by Amitabh

ageing fleet of propeller-driven Surya Kiran Mark II trainer jets
Put the highlighted words together and laugh or weep as desired at the ignorance (and incompetence) of the reporter.

And all Kirans become Surya Kirans now. :roll: Next time, this guy will be talking about Thunderbird jets (aerobatic team of Hunters that preceded the Surya Kirans).

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Anurag » 07 Feb 2003 00:42

I think it's the same as the LAH in one of the previous pics.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby JTull » 07 Feb 2003 02:14

Originally posted by Amitabh:
Come on now, boys, where is it?!
http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/feb/06aero1.htm
I'm eagerly waiting for some pictures of IJT prototype and the LCH mockup.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 07 Feb 2003 02:26

Originally posted by bansal:
Originally posted by Amitabh:
[b]Come on now, boys, where is it?!
http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/feb/06aero1.htm
I'm eagerly waiting for some pictures of IJT prototype and the LCH mockup.[/b]
The LCH mockup I guess is already known to BRities. I think it was either the earlier aeroindia or defexpo a mockup was displayed.

BR admins should help you in fishing out the model photo.. it was called LAH light attack helo {not lancer}.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rudra » 07 Feb 2003 02:30

shilka needs upgrade to its tracking system. I wonder if some upgrade is being done like the SA-2,SA-3,SA-6 modernizations.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby JTull » 07 Feb 2003 02:35

Originally posted by Sai_NT:
The LCH mockup I guess is already known to BRities. I think it was either the earlier aeroindia or defexpo a mockup was displayed.

BR admins should help you in fishing out the model photo.. it was called LAH light attack helo {not lancer}.
I don't agree with you. I would expect it to be in Apache type looks. If it is just a two seater in tandem config. with air to air capability, then most of the weight would be used for short range A2A missiles, rocket pods, radar and ECM suite, chaff dispensers, etc.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby NRao » 07 Feb 2003 02:39

Originally posted by bansal:
Originally posted by Sai_NT:
[b]The LCH mockup I guess is already known to BRities. I think it was either the earlier aeroindia or defexpo a mockup was displayed.

BR admins should help you in fishing out the model photo.. it was called LAH light attack helo {not lancer}.
I don't agree with you. I would expect it to be in Apache type looks. If it is just a two seater in tandem config. with air to air capability, then most of the weight would be used for short range A2A missiles, rocket pods, radar and ECM suite, chaff dispensers, etc.[/b]
Could one derive an "Apache" style Helo from a ALH? I would imagine it would be a major rewrite - from the drawing board up. Unless, ofcourse, I am missing the point you are trying to make.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Div » 07 Feb 2003 02:45

Originally posted by Sridhar:
From the above Rediff article linked by Amitabh

ageing fleet of [b]propeller-driven Surya Kiran Mark II trainer jets
Put the highlighted words together and laugh or weep as desired at the ignorance (and incompetence) of the reporter.

And all Kirans become Surya Kirans now. :roll: Next time, this guy will be talking about Thunderbird jets (acrobatic team of Hunters that preceded the Surya Kirans).[/b]
Sridhar - textbook DDM. Actually its worse than DDM becuase its plain lazy; the 'propellor driven' part for the Kirans is from an AFP story posted a few days ago. Seems like Fakir Chand is quite familiar with "cut and paste".

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Sridhar K » 07 Feb 2003 02:48

What is in this photo?Is it the LAH?


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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 07 Feb 2003 02:51

If i believe my eyes and heard many heavy-weight BRites discussion the very same LAH or LCH a year or 2 back, there was an apache type mockup, but much smaller..

It had the radome or radar nose just below chin. I can't believe I can't google it out.. I am sure, BR admins might have "cached" one for you guys.

If somebody is good at searching BR archives can get it, unless it is "intentionally" deleted for un-necessary publicity.

anyway, i saw it. it was :cool: .. except the radar position - felt it could be like the ah-64 hellfire like radome on top.

Perhaps, the design was taken away, after seeing something like <u> this </u>. The design might have changed.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Sanjay » 07 Feb 2003 02:55

Thanks a lot Shiv.

Ok - that ZSU-23-4 is apparently a BEL upgraded variant. When you speak to the chaps you might find out with what.

There should also be an upgraded L-40/70 system.

And then that Skyshield system.

Apparently they've been fitted with thermal imaging systems.

Plenty to find out.

Shiv, did you get anything at all on the new Light Combat Helicopter ? Photograph or anything ?

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Muns » 07 Feb 2003 03:01

Sridhar K, From what i can see the heli in the foreground is a Mi 35 Hind gunship, while the one behind it is the army version of the Dhruv ALH.

Heres the photo from Defexpo 2002 in the BR monitor. There is a better photo hiding somewhere though.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-5/rajloh.jpg

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 07 Feb 2003 03:01

Originally posted by Sridhar K:
What is in this photo?Is it the LAH?

I suspect not. It could be Mi-35. its huge.
The LAH was pretty small. two seater, like LCA. but shape of apache / german tiger / combo

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 07 Feb 2003 03:04

<font size = 3> That's it!!!!! you read "LAH" in the tail! hurray!</font>

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rudra » 07 Feb 2003 03:05

the photo is a Mi35 israeli upgraded and with exhaust dissipators.

the LAH (LCH) is narrower than Dhruv, the lesser
area of metal being negated by heavy armour and
glass protection. the tv-FLIR package shown mounted on Dhruv in a BR pic is perhaps what will be used in nose, same cannon, Nag missiles, unguided rockets, auto flare dispenser, IR dazzler, NVG, GPS nav kit with terrain modelling database (?), air-2-air datalink for pack hunting......and a few yrs later the MMW radar for all-weather popup fire-n-forget tank shooting.

few Igla tubes for limited self-defence is feasible.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Anurag » 07 Feb 2003 03:10

The LAH is the LCH!

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rudra » 07 Feb 2003 03:32

Anurag, a great discovery. please mail me a carton of beer.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Anurag » 07 Feb 2003 03:34

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
Anurag, a great discovery. please mail me a carton of beer.
How about you make it to the BR Chicago meet! ;)

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Muns » 07 Feb 2003 03:42

Note the LAH from Defexpo has the same tail rotor, i hope to see the new model with the LOH tail rotor, as in a fenestron type rotor.

With the LAH being more ground 'hugging' it makes more sense to go in for a safer design that could prevent the tail from being damaged by objects around it.

Asking too much if its made of composites with titanium armor for the cockpit, throw in a few shaved stealth features with a generous helping of stealth paint and we have a new warrior for our mahabharata series....the LAH Ghatotkacha....
disappears...pops up some where else and hammers....

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 07 Feb 2003 03:55

Is VTDP a better design for LAH? perhaps for Navy , I guess.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rudra » 07 Feb 2003 03:58

for safest design NOTAR is even better - the air from main engine goes out a hole in tail boom towards one side giving the reqd force.

but there must be reasons why its not used in military design, even commanche has a fenestron.

N^3 with 100+ peer-reviewed articles on rotorcraft is a platinum grade resource to ask.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 07 Feb 2003 04:01

thanks rudra.. got this googled:

http://www.kulikovair.com/Notar2.htm

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Prateek » 07 Feb 2003 04:24


Sridhar K
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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Sridhar K » 07 Feb 2003 04:46

Sai_NT, Praneet and Rudra,
Thanks. I too thought that it was Mi35Hind near the Dhruv, but was confused by what was written below the Deccan Herald picture plus the news about the unvieling of the LAH at Aero India.

Visitors at the static display of attack helicopters at the Aero India Show in Bangalore on Thursday

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby vverma » 07 Feb 2003 11:55

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/02052201.htm
Spectacular air show at Aero India

The Army also pitched in with its dummy trans-border operations using one Lancer helicopter along with two advance light helicopters.
Can somebody please find out information on this demo and what role the lancer played?

Presumably it would play the role of the scout helicopter in a mission like this but is it really capable with barely two machine guns and six rockets?

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2003 12:21

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
the photo is a Mi35 israeli upgraded and with exhaust dissipators.

the LAH (LCH) is narrower than Dhruv, the lesser
area of metal being negated by heavy armour and
glass protection. the tv-FLIR package shown mounted on Dhruv in a BR pic is perhaps what will be used in nose, same cannon, Nag missiles, unguided rockets, auto flare dispenser, IR dazzler, NVG, GPS nav kit with terrain modelling database (?), air-2-air datalink for pack hunting......and a few yrs later the MMW radar for all-weather popup fire-n-forget tank shooting.

few Igla tubes for limited self-defence is feasible.
With the Israeli connection, it is highly possible that the LAH, may get end up becoming a smaller version of what the KA-52 was supposed to be for turkey. I think 3000 pounds of current dhruv's payload is quite good. Seat it in a titanium tub like the A-10 and you can go tank hunting and take all the punishment the world has to offer.

http://www.iai.co.il/dows/dows/Serve/item/English/1.1.11.1.2.11.html

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Sanjay » 07 Feb 2003 20:21

Gentlemen,

You can be almost certain that the IAF intends to use this LCH as a supplement to existing assets. What would be interesting to see are the performance parameters.

As an aside, the original Chetak manufacturing agreement provided for France to help India develop a dedicated gunship based on the Chetak - just like the Gen. 1 Rooivalk. We never took up the option.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rudra » 07 Feb 2003 21:24

the new Shakti engine will help when it arrives which should be in parallel with LCH prototype.

this article claims we signed deals of $300+ mil
with USA in last 18 months.
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,4386,170423,00.html

(I guess 150mil for antpq-37/47 and rest of GE404?)

EADS in talks to make Milan-4 ATGM in india and
new ASW helo (NH90 ? Cougar?)
http://www.spacedaily.com/2003/030207103522.yi7r1f71.html

IN negotiating to buy 8-12 P3 from Lockheed
http://www.spacedaily.com/2003/030206164130.j1al2t5w.html

He said talks started about a year ago and
were now on a "government-to-government
leve

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2003 21:44

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=36784333

Two years ago, HAL and Ilyushin announced that they would make a 100-seater cargo-cum-passenger aircraft as a replacement for some 250 tactical transports like the AN-32 and AN-12s in the Russian and Indian Air Forces.



They would spin this off into a commercial jet as well.



On Thursday, HAL chairman Mohanty indicated that the deal was in trouble. The money for the development was elusive and the market had vanished.



Industry sources said that the Russian Air Force had plumped up for the Tupolev 330 and the IAF had reduced its requirements to 40. But the bigger problem, they said, was with HAL's mindset of thinking that a military tactical transport aircraft could double up as a commercial jet.



"Military aircraft don't concern themselves with fuel economy or comfort," said an industry watcher, "while those are primary considerations for a commercial jet."

-----------------------------------------------
From this news report, it almost seems like the IAF doesn't want to get a home grown solution. Will probably end up justifying that it doesn't need as many and will end up procuring something like c-130J. Now as this is probably an elite DDM reporter, would the good brites going to Aero India provide independent confirmation of this report.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rudra » 07 Feb 2003 22:25

if the IAF wants just 40 to replace the aeging An32s thats very surprising. what is going to replace than AN32 and HS748s ? I would think we
need about 150 of these tactical transports and
another 50 IL76-mki.

a photo of the lineup (mki towers over the rest)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030207/168/37vtw.html

Take a look at TU330 specs. it can carry 25t for
5000km and 20t for 6000km. it already exists and
has a glass cockpit per the photos. So why dont
we consider this rather than a similar non-existent
aircraft ?
http://amaholdings.com/tu330/index.html

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2003 22:40

I was looking at it myself. The specs look better than il-214, but it might be the russians trying to keep Ilyushin alive with our money, possibly? TU might not want a partner as it seems that TU-330 has lots in common with thier other lineup. So they probably just want to sell it around.

That news of wanting to replace only 40 kinda sounds suspicious. Need independent confirmation from some other source. Hold the RAMBHA hostage until ACM answers all our question.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Amitabh » 07 Feb 2003 22:41

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:

this article claims we signed deals of $300+ mil with USA in last 18 months.
That's $330 million Singapore, or $190 million US.

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Vasu » 07 Feb 2003 23:16

is it mere coincidence that this news of the Il-214 running into trouble comes right after the American offer of the C-130's?

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Kakkaji » 07 Feb 2003 23:22

Crashes due to bogus parts: MiG official

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/07mig.htm

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Muns » 07 Feb 2003 23:31

IAF places order for 16 IJTs with HAL

Defence Minister George Fernandes unveiled an all-metal life size mock-up of the LCH at the air show on Wednesday at the HAL pavilion. The LCH incorporates a number of stealth features and crashworthy landing gear for better survivability.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/feb/06aero1.htm

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Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2003 23:45

Cool, so we should see a picture shortly


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