Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Cybaru » 09 Feb 2003 13:25

Yes you are right. In netscape it shows up great, but IE refuses to play it for some reason.

Sorry to bother.. must be my system..

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby shiv » 09 Feb 2003 13:49

Originally posted by cy_baru:
Yes you are right. In netscape it shows up great, but IE refuses to play it for some reason.

If u cn d/l the file - try renaming to .mpg rather than .mpeg

Prateek
BRFite
Posts: 310
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Prateek » 09 Feb 2003 13:53

The mpegs are great, especially the lca one ! Thanks Shiv. By the way I used Windows media player 9, no problems viewing the movie clips.

davidn
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 82
Joined: 30 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby davidn » 09 Feb 2003 14:02

the lch design is very interesting, it is the reverse of many wheeled combat helicopters, single wheel at the front, double at the back.

Any other pictures of the lch at other angles?

also, is that black thing sticking out the front the chain gun barrel? if so, the gun must be mounted internally! Very interesting, possibly indicates an intention to further improve on the aircrafts stealth later on.

maz
Webmaster BR
Posts: 349
Joined: 03 Dec 2000 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby maz » 09 Feb 2003 14:12

I'd have to say that the Brahmos launchers on the Rajput are for engineering evaluation tests and trials. Think of this development in terms operational evaluation (opeval).

I imagine that there is much work involved before the missile system can be cleared for operational service. The whole missile system (missile, launchers, fire control equipment, etc) needs to be refined and perfected in several stages of engg development. This is one of the early stages.

A vertical launch system will be next. But the Kashins cannot be so modified unless the SAM system is removed. Maybe that will be the next thing the DRDO will do.

as for hitting targets behind you: naval ships are always maneuvering. The hardly ever sail in a straight line. A ship needs to turn to the threat, fire its missile and then go on its merry way. Well almost. There still needs to be some sort of mid-course guidance system for the Brahmos unless it is directed at a fixed (land based) target. UAV's, helos and maritime recon aircraft come in quite handy as datalinks for mid course corrections and target location updates.

I hope that this helps.

All naval brahmos posts should be migrated over to misc naval discussions thread lest we deviate from the Aero India theme of this thread.

Priyank
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 22 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Priyank » 09 Feb 2003 14:25

A question on the MKI. Are the thrust vectoring nozzles integrated into the FBW system and the pilot's main control column? IIRC the Su-37 had a special switch to enable thrush vectoring and a special control column for the same.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Cybaru » 09 Feb 2003 15:26

Originally posted by davidn:
the lch design is very interesting, it is the reverse of many wheeled combat helicopters, single wheel at the front, double at the back.

Any other pictures of the lch at other angles?

also, is that black thing sticking out the front the chain gun barrel? if so, the gun must be mounted internally! Very interesting, possibly indicates an intention to further improve on the aircrafts stealth later on.
Yeah thanks for pointing that out.. It is possible that this may be one of many configurations and the final version might look more meaner. I suspect that the bottom might get a little bigger too when they add more armor to it. All in all not bad, I am hoping we get a meaner looking thing by the time this guy starts blowing things out on the testing range.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby shiv » 09 Feb 2003 17:20

Originally posted by davidn:

Any other pictures of the lch at other angles?
The lch is basically an ALH in which the cabin has been squeezed and a new cockpit/nose layout and two weapons carrying stubs stick out from the laterally squeezed cabin:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/lchside.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/lchback.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/lchnose.jpg

Also see
Suryakirans@aeroindia2003
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aerosk.rm

Suppiah
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2569
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: -
Contact:

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Suppiah » 09 Feb 2003 17:35

The LCA in the video posted seems to make a sharp 90 degree turn & fly belly up - or am I seeing things? What tricks did it perform?

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rudra » 09 Feb 2003 20:02

very therapeutic to hear the LCA engine growl. it did do 180 flip at the end ?

who were the people sitting inside LCH mockup ?
the twin-gun doesnt show a turret - I hope a
flush turret is made --> will protect whole thing from dust, mud and debris in indian conditions.

Sukumar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Sukumar » 09 Feb 2003 20:18

Thanks for the pics Shiv. You're a champ !! Here are some initial comments on the LCH.

1. The cockpits seem to have too much glass on the sides. Would be good to take the cockpit metal sides up a little more and surrounding the crew in a titanium "bath tub" to protect against small arms and AAA. For comparison here is a photo of the Apache http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/ah64d/images/94-226.htm

2. The weapon spar/beam seems to be a cylindrical beam. They may want to experiment making it an aerofoil shape with potential to add lift at speed (like the Apache or Mi-24/25/35)

3. Shiv did you see anything around the engines to indicate IR signature suppression/masking ? DRDO may want to study the efforts with the Super Cobra and Apache.

4. Evolving it from the basic ALH design is a good idea (like the Cobra was derived from the Huey). Wonder how much additional ruggedization they are doing to enable nap of the earth flying and low level survivability needed for the LCH mission. Shiv did you see/learn anything ?

Is this a mockup or prototype ? did they indicate when first flight would be ?

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2783
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby JTull » 09 Feb 2003 20:32

If this LCH does not look like Apache in tandem seat config, then what does.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21060
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Philip » 09 Feb 2003 21:02

Back at base.As Shiv said ,we had the mother of all BR meets.This Air Show ws the best ever,from an organisational point of view,though many experts felt that the aerobatics of previous shows-where Russian pilots flew the SU-30 to the limit were superior.One also cannot forget a previous show where one simply walked under the fuselage of the SU-30!Sadly that ability to walk upto the aircraft on show,especially those taking part in the aerobatic display-probably unique anywhere has now been consigned to the past for obvious reasons.Crowds and security concerns for the aircraft should be paramount.

Nevertheless,this time,one did not have the thousands of freewheeling crowds on the first two trade days to prevent one from taking a detailed look at the exhibits and asking the exhibitors leading questions ,though the freebooters,smaller in number as they appeared to be from the aero-space industry itself,like swarms of locusts ,swept every handout within half an hour on the very first half-day itself!It was yet again quite frustrating to find that there was little left when one desperately wanted to check out some very interesting designs especially from the Russian stalls.

One thing stands out though,there is a huge resurgence in the Indian aero-space industry and both indigenous projects and foreign acquisitions are going to keep the industry very busy for the next decade.To me,the most outstandign achievement was the Brahmos project,shown in great detail with both a video of the launches to date as well as close ups of the missile in the production hall,where one could see several Brahmos missiles in various stages of completion.The missile will be operated by all three services,shown on the SU-30MKI,shown with two quad launchers (one on either beam) on a model of a Tarantula missle boat,in a triple mount on a mobile land launcher and also to be fired from Indian subs in the future.

The second outstanding feature was the aerobatic display by the MIG-29-2,the modified upgraded version of the MIG-29 which was superbly flown,giving very little away to the SU-30MKI. clearly see that in the future Indian MIG-29s will be modified as well as seeing these aircraft on the Gorshkov and perhaps the ADS.The expected decision to buy the Hawk did not happen,though the Hawk appears to be almost at the post.The Czech L-159 was a worthy equal in the flying display and so was the MIG-AT,though one now hears of the YAK-130 also throwing its hat into the ring at this eleventh hour!
leaving the trainers aside,the expected first flight of the HAL designed and built IJT did not materialise,though the Saras was unveiled at HAL and a small part cabin mockup was on show.

The LCH in full mockup form was on show,though it was intriguing that the "ball" sensor,normally mounted below the nose in other similar attack helos,was mounted on top of the nose,thus preventing the sensor from getting a full view of the terrian below!Shiv and I cannot work this one out.As someone has pointed out,it looks very much like the Mangusta.The Dhruv variants did their flying bit as usual-as one has come to expect and the helo seems destined to be built in large orders-with the Israelis (interesting)doing the overseas marketing for us.

A full range of Israeli UAVs were on display,from extended range designs to smaller ones,though the French also had a super stealth UAV at half size-full size about (1.5-2 ms)configured as a diamond shaped flying wing.The Israeli stalls had the usual advanced avionics,helmets and night vision devices,an array of air-to-air missiles plus Barak which is beconing opertaional aboard several IN warships.In this regard there was for the first time a South African presence with their Umkhonto anti-missile being fitted aboard their latest MEKO-2000 stealth frigates with approx the same capabilities as Barak.

Maz,BEL did have some info on ESM and EW eqpt. fitted aboard IN warships,but only general info about specs was available.There was an interesting Indian private company MACMET,which has been providing substantial command and control hardware and software solutions for the services.BEL also had a T-72 tank simulator on display.There were several other simulators for various aircraft/upgrades from Israel etc.The French had a large contingement with models of their various aircraft,missiles and helos.They are sitting pretty with most aircraft being upgraded with French and Israeli avionics.

More news later.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Victor » 09 Feb 2003 21:18

Good Lord!!! That mpeg posted by Shiv of the Su-30MKI shows the thrust-vectoring capability like I have never seen before. Turning 180 while on the horizontal has got to unnerve ANY opponent.

Thanks Shiv! Made my week.

Muns
BRFite
Posts: 294
Joined: 02 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Muns » 09 Feb 2003 21:18

Wah wonder if Santa can include an MKI into my list, but then if i was Santa Clausji...id chuck the reindeer and get me an MKI...also thanks to Shiv for the videos/pics..

LCH looks good, the stealth design is commendable but :

1) Those cockpit windows are indeed quite large not sure if they did exagerate them for the public to get a better view of the cockpit, but as sukumar says raising the level of protection around is a good idea. Unless the glass is able to handle small arms fire?

2)Ah gees can we get rid of the pole pylons and slap on some proper stubs looks a lot aesthetically better.
Maybe stealthier and can carry a greater weapons load. Any reason why retractable wheels can't be used like the naval Dhruv...might add again to reducing its signature.
No fenestron but i ain't *itchin, i like the internal chin mounted gun.

Sukumar, as per the news reports, this is the mock up. 1st flight of prototype in 2 years, to be ready to display and fly at next aero india 2005 with production to start 4/5 years from now. Need to paint that white FLIR ball on nose...

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby JCage » 09 Feb 2003 21:32

By Jove,i am exhausted.Just came home from AeroIndia.

The meet 2 days back was too good to describe.Met people who by now are friends-the meet was just the conclusion.A big thanks to Shiv for getting the ball rolling and that too in such an excellent fashion.
Now i really mucked up 2 days trying to concentrate on both the air displays and the stuff in the hangars-result,neither done to full satisfaction.

But something is better than nothing.I hope Kersi will repeat his earlier stuff and give the updates for i do hope he went about it in a far more methodical method than i did!

The MkI-----no words can describe it.But i had a feeling that it was being underplayed and wasnt even showing a fraction of what its truly capable of.The restrictions on truely "free" maneuvers with so many people present perhaps-too risky.
The Mirages-yaar kya kahoon,they were awesome.Synchronised flying done to perfection.At high speeds to boot.Repeated breathtaking maneuvers.3 of them vs the MKI display.Both types won their converts. :)
The Suryakirans-i'll let Kapil describe them.By now, i bet he could take a Kiran up and do quite a bit himself. :)
As usual their three most popular tricks-the cross over at high speed-like the miarges did,scary and amazing.The rays of the sun bit where they storm out and spread out like the rays of the surya-breathtaking.And the heart one with 2 kirans doin' the heart,another drawing a white arrow thru the same.

Now the tech stuff-damn i should have really gone earlier.
BTW,the LRDE BFSR -Short range-we presumed it was israeli Transfer of tech.Its not.100 percent designed and built by desis.Only looks are similar.In almost every parameter,the BFSR outperforms the Israeli one and has diffrent Indian sourced components.

Perhaps i should have requested an Aeroindia extension for another two days to really look around. :roll:

Ye Gad,the hordes who invaded.Locusts indeed.Snatched all publicty material.But chalta hain.I have agut feel many kids wanna be IAF pilots now and some engineering types were really into the aerospace stuff.

Bye,
Nitin

Amitabh
BRFite
Posts: 270
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Amitabh » 09 Feb 2003 21:32

So the LCH isn't the LAH after all.

The LAH seems more like the Rooivalk, a heavy attack helicopter. The LCH is lighter and more compact, has a different wheel arrangement, less apparent armour protection, and retains the top portion of the Dhruv unaltered.

Div
BRFite
Posts: 327
Joined: 16 Aug 1999 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Div » 09 Feb 2003 22:04

Excellent!

Needless to say, the LCH is different from the earlier LAH design in that its ALH lineage is easily seen. The quirks mentioned should be ironed out as the design moves forward.

Guest

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Guest » 09 Feb 2003 22:20

Did the LCA go supersonic at Aero India? If not, any idea when it is going to?

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3287
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Kakkaji » 09 Feb 2003 22:31

Aero India 2003 closes; HAL gets
major deals

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/09aero.htm

maz
Webmaster BR
Posts: 349
Joined: 03 Dec 2000 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby maz » 10 Feb 2003 00:31

Philip,
were u able to collect any of the BEL and MACMET brochures? If so, please scan or Xerox and email me. General specs are good enough for my purposes.

Yes, the masses do descend upon the place like a swarm of locusts. The best time to gather brochures is during the first 2 days.

maz
Webmaster BR
Posts: 349
Joined: 03 Dec 2000 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby maz » 10 Feb 2003 00:48

This is a link to an article about Indian companies involved in aeropace/defence projects from Aero India 2001. Makes for an interesting read.
http://www.the-week.com/21feb25/events2.htm

maz
Webmaster BR
Posts: 349
Joined: 03 Dec 2000 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby maz » 10 Feb 2003 00:57

Can someone do a physical comparison of the BFSR and its Israeli cousin? Nitin, take what you hear about 100% indigenous from LRDE with a grain of salt. For instance, regarding naval radars, what you hear from BEL and the user, the Navy, are almost 180 degrees apart. That is to say, BEL = 100% indigenous, Navy = what 100% indigenous?

Whenever ever u hear 100% indigenous with equipment that looks foreign, think 10% indigenous content and 90% local assembly of SKD or CKD parts.

vverma
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 72
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Contact:

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby vverma » 10 Feb 2003 01:15

It'd be an understatement to say that the LCH design was way under utiliized. The armed version of the ALH seems more potent than this. LCH should benefit a lot in weight advantage from the squeezing and removal of the cabin. Yet, the payload shown was the same as armed-ALH. Also, stub wings instead of the hose, PLEASE. The gun in the front cannot swivel. Don't they plan to slave it to the helmet mounted sights? I agree with the idea of retractable gear.

Hopefully this was only a primitive design concept.

AshishN
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 88
Joined: 31 Jul 2002 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby AshishN » 10 Feb 2003 01:50

Shiv, thanks once again for the pix and videos! You don't know what that means to people who have to keep hearing "F-16 is da best" over and over...!

Anyway, what's up with the bald eagle emblem on the LCH ?

AshishN
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 88
Joined: 31 Jul 2002 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby AshishN » 10 Feb 2003 01:55

Oh, OK then...

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Cybaru » 10 Feb 2003 01:55

Originally posted by AshishN:

Anyway, what's up with the bald eagle emblem on the LCH ?
It might be a osprey, you find lots of them around lakes and rivers. Primarily fish hunters.

saint
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 10 Feb 2003 02:14

The LCH pylons..

Q:
Wondering if more weapons could be added on top of the pole, anywhere in the world such design exists?

like:
=
<[RADOME]>
+
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=
== ==
|| ||
Ö Ö Ö Ö || ||Ö Ö Ö Ö
========= ======== > weapons on top and bottom
Ö Ö Ö Ö || ||Ö Ö Ö Ö
|| ||
=====

??

Roop
BRFite
Posts: 390
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Roop » 10 Feb 2003 02:30

Speaking as just one of the BR internet jockeys halfway across the world from Bangalore and salivating at the thought of attending this airshow: thank you, thank you, thank you! Thanks to our local BR reps who took so much trouble to post "sitreps", video links etc.

Further requests: Philip, can you say any more about the Mig-29? What was the upgrade on display at the show? Did it fly? If so, what aerobatics did it display? And finally, what can one conclude about the version of the Mig-29 that will be deployed on board the Gorshkov?

To everyone else: Thank you again for the trouble you guys took.

vverma
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 72
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Contact:

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby vverma » 10 Feb 2003 02:44

One more thing, was the Lancer there? Did anybody find out about the exercise demo they had of a Lancer with two ALH? Operational capability, effect in payload due to the pods and bullet proof canopy?

With all the team work going on in Indian projects, they should find a partner like the Israelis who can assist in design and market of the LCH along with ALH. May be offer them as a package deal or something? Like Blackhawk/Apache.
Presumably LCH will carry the Shakti engine but did any one find out?

Rishi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 746
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Maximum City

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Rishi » 10 Feb 2003 03:47

Originally posted by Mohan Raju:

Did it fly?

Hell yeah!

If so, what aerobatics did it display?

A yummy tail-slide :cool: , lots of loops.. umm... what else? I cant recall...

saint
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 10 Feb 2003 05:06

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/feb10/eb2.asp

airshow is an airshow is an airshow

Muns
BRFite
Posts: 294
Joined: 02 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Muns » 10 Feb 2003 05:25

Important nugget :

Mr Mohanty disclosed that the intermediate jet trainer (IJT) that had been developed in a record time of three-and-a-half years could be upgraded into an AJT.

The Rs 2775-crore defence aircraft manufacturer HAL on Thursday declared its capability to design and develop an Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT).

HAL Sets Rs 100-cr Export Target :
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=27566

anilK
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 12
Joined: 05 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: Tempe, AZ, USA

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby anilK » 10 Feb 2003 05:48

Questions: the two short Black stubs on both the sides seen here, are they sideways looking barrel guns ?
The front double bareel gun - can it swivel sideways/updown???

Div
BRFite
Posts: 327
Joined: 16 Aug 1999 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Div » 10 Feb 2003 06:04

No, the two 'black things' sticking out the sides look like sensors to me.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Arun_S » 10 Feb 2003 07:08

Dr Shiv, Superb.

For me the lca & M2k video clip does not play the last 25%.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby shiv » 10 Feb 2003 07:15

Originally posted by Victor:
the Su-30MKI shows the thrust-vectoring capability like I have never seen before. Turning 180 while on the horizontal has got to unnerve ANY opponent.
When I first saw that - on the day before I videoed it - Philip and I were having lunch and I ran out to check what was going on. I saw it and just clapped my hand to my mouth and stood rooted to the spot. Ever seen a leaf rotating lazily in a horizontal plane as it falls from a tree? Imagine a multi-tonne aircraft doing that rather than spinning crazily down like like a brick? Amazing stuff.

Best part is - this was no Russian test pilot flying his baby the way he knows - it was an IAF pilot - who has used this maneuver and will use it when needed.The MiG 29 display was good - but it did the usual tricks that hi performance aircraft do - tight turns, razor sharp flights turned 90 deg on the side - and the MiG 29 special - the tail slide.

Hi perf aircraft are pretty to watch - they never leave your field of vision and never have to travel upto the Karnataka border to turn back - they just do it all within the confines of the airfield. And as they fly by the air inside your lungs vibrates with the noise and power - a frightening/exhilarating feeling normally known only to people in frontline air bases.

saint
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 11:31

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby saint » 10 Feb 2003 07:26

Originally posted by bansal:
If this LCH does not look like Apache in tandem seat config, then what does.
big diff!!!

the tail

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Arun_S » 10 Feb 2003 07:36

Originally posted by Div:
No, the two 'black things' sticking out the sides look like sensors to me.
Me think they are IR-decoy flare dispenser.

Sukumar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Postby Sukumar » 10 Feb 2003 08:27

Originally posted by Arun_S:
Originally posted by Div:
[b]No, the two 'black things' sticking out the sides look like sensors to me.
Me think they are IR-decoy flare dispenser.[/b]
Look like navigation lights to me :)


Return to “Military Expositions Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests