Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Sukumar · Post by **Sukumar** » 12 Feb 2003 10:59

Shiv, Harry, Jagan, Nitin et al:

Thanks for all the pics and info. Feel great, feel proud. A few questions:

1. Harry, from your pic I assume the gunner's cockpit in the LCH is the one in front ?

2. Can someone list the names of all the weapon systems presented in front of the LCA ?

3. Shiv when you say the Astra ground test has been done, you mean testing of the rocket/ramjet propulsion unit ?

4. Whats the Recce Lite pod and how different is it from Litening ? It is an electro-optical reconnaissance pod ?

5. Harry who makes the Sprewer UAV and Sapsan pod?

Looks like each of you has a mother lode of info. Are you trying to combine it all together ? I suggest a special BR Monitor issue devoted to Aero India.........

Thanks again guys.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Feb 2003 11:05

Some more photos from a digital camera that is revealing new weaknesses and faults to me:

LCA munitions: I can recognise all except the red one with a yellow nose in the left foreground and the olive green one to the left of that one. Note tyat the plane itself is so new that it is still in its wrapping!

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ailca1.jpg

Proposed Brahmos mounts:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03brahmos1.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03brahmos2.jpg

Div · Post by **Div** » 12 Feb 2003 11:11

The second on should be...
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03brahmos2.jpg

I know GD will like that rig setup with 3 cannisters.

Priyank · Post by **Priyank** » 12 Feb 2003 12:38

Originally posted by Div:
I know GD will like that rig setup with 3 cannisters.

If you think that GD will like that, then look at the first brahmos picture. It shows three of them on what looks like a MKI. Guruji is gonna love that.

Just think of the possibilities - Karachi, Gwadar, PN, those pesky Amazon class frigates!

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Feb 2003 12:39

Last of my Digi Snaps collection

Python AAM
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/python.jpg

Nishant UAV
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/Nishant.jpg

Closeup of Nishant's Recce pack
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/nishantcloseup.jpg

The Mil 35 chopper
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/mi-35.jpg

Israeli PGM bomb
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/PGMisraeli.jpg

Lakshya PTA
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/Lakshya.jpg

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Feb 2003 12:41

..and the first of the Traditional Scans

SKATs over the MiG-29
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/MiG29.jpg

Suryakiran rolls almost overhead of the crowd.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/Suryakiranroll.jpg

Same pic as above, but testing my scanning skills

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/SKRoll2.jpg

John · Post by **John** » 12 Feb 2003 13:06

just wondering can anyone identify the 2nd and 3rd missile being carried by the Mig-29?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Aero/MiG29.jpg

Priyank · Post by **Priyank** » 12 Feb 2003 13:45

I think those are trainer rounds for the R-60 (?) and not real missiles.

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 12 Feb 2003 13:53

The Brahmos pictures posted by Shiv settle the issue of maritime VLS launch. And I know that the Brahmos site, if it ever comes back up, supports this hypothesis that the VLS launch is only for land based systems.

I had read the same information at Brahmos.com some time back. The inclined fitting on the test vessel is infact the way it is supposed to be.

I think this again raises the question of why VLS was not chosen as the way to go for maritime systems. Was this decision made before the L&T system for Dhanush was developed? There is no reason why a similar novel system cannot be developed for Brahmos.

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 12 Feb 2003 13:54

By the way, any information on the initial operational capability for Nishant. It passed army evealuation but we never found out what number is in production. Did anybody ask?

Vishwajeet_th · Post by **Vishwajeet_th** » 12 Feb 2003 16:27

aprt from the question posted by VVerma could anyone tell me is there any more UAV projects in development or on the drawing board or under consideration for development?

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 12 Feb 2003 17:00

I had a long chat with the Brahmos people at AI. I asked about their site. They are enhancing it and intend to put in more pics and streaming videos as well...so stay tuned.

As far as plans are concerned...their first priority is to deliver the land based system...based on a 12 wheel articulated Tatra chasis. A prototype with a three round launcher was displayed at R-Day this year. This will replace the P-20 (SS-C-2) systems that are now deployed in the coastal defence role. Development and trials will be held concurrently with the shi-based. The land based system uses an elevated....NOT VL system. VLS is intended for integration with a ship's hull. Probably from the P-17s onwards.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 12 Feb 2003 18:14

Rupak,
For coastal defence, imagine what a VLS set up would look like ? Like S-300 ? Possible but unlikely for coast defence.
You couldn't conceal it - you need an elevating mobile launcher unless you want to have a fixed position.

The bigger question is whether we actually need a shore based Brahmos ?

Rupak - any kind of SAM or ATBM or AAM news on your end ?

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 12 Feb 2003 18:22

What will be the search and track radar that will feed the initial target into Brahmos in the coastal defense mode?

Also, regarding the MKI and Brahmos: Jeez freakin crap!!!! Four MKIs carrying Brahmos is about the same fire power as a destroyer. Anytime you see a MKI with Brahmos taking off, it will surely be in anger because I can't imagine trying to land with that thing and not breaking the pylon off.

George J · Post by **George J** » 12 Feb 2003 18:39

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Rupak,
For coastal defence, imagine what a VLS set up would look like ?
You couldn't conceal it - you need an elevating mobile launcher unless you want to have a fixed position.

Yep it can always be like the S-300V system. Which are horizontally transported but vertically launched. So i dont think concealment will be an issues (at least not any greater than that faced by S300).

Horizontal transport:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/sa-12-img011.jpg

Going vertical for launch:
http://www.armscontrol.ru/atmtc/Arms_systems/Land/Missiles/SAM/S-300V.jpg

Vertical launch:
http://www.warchina.com/jspl28/images/s300v.jpg

http://venus.ci.uw.edu.pl/~animal/military.pl/syst_p_lotnicze/rakietowe/sa-12_gladiator_s-300v/sa-12-1s.jpg

member_201 · Post by **member_201** » 12 Feb 2003 18:59

Originally posted by shiv: Speaking of pretty - there were plenty of IAF girls about, and the Russians as usual has brought some really cool wimmen to embellish their sales pitch, and ELBIT and others had local college beauties for the same purpose.

Tell me you took some pictures!

Please say yes!

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 12 Feb 2003 21:12

Originally posted by Rakesh Koshy:

Originally posted by shiv: Speaking of pretty - there were plenty of IAF girls about, and the Russians as usual has brought some really cool wimmen to embellish their sales pitch, and ELBIT and others had local college beauties for the same purpose.
Tell me you took some pictures! Please say yes!

OK, there were some young ladies in IAF jumpsuits with the Suryakiran patch!! I dont think they flew this time though... probably in training! Plus they were always with the Suryakiran gang (ie the rest of the pilots)

And lots more in normal uniform... Very Very Smart!

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 12 Feb 2003 21:24

you know my tastes...the 3-pack brahmos is just booootiful.

for sheer intimidation value the SLBM size revolver VLS on slavas look great but ofcourse the
mk41 type is more efficient.

daulat · Post by **daulat** » 12 Feb 2003 21:26

Originally posted by Rishi:
[flew this time though... probably in training! Plus they were always with the Suryakiran gang (ie the rest of the pilots)

And lots more in normal uniform... Very Very Smart!

hey not fair! i got told off by the mighty Shiv a little while ago for commenting on the above phenomenon at lohegaon!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 12 Feb 2003 21:39

I'm sorry Rakesh but Aero-India-2003 was BABE-CENTRAL!!You would have certainly exploded if you came.

About the NAVAL LCA,the dumbf__k I questioned did'nt know what a steam catapult was.What is confirmed is that as of now,the NAVAL LCA will be for STOBAR operations.

Someone also asked about the LCA trainer.The LCA trainer has aerodynamic commonality with the Naval LCA(drooped nose,LEVCONS et al)and hence is far better looking than before.

Harry who makes the Sprewer UAV and Sapsan pod?

Sperwer UAV is a product of SAGEM UK.The UAV has a delta-wing and the propulsion comes from a push propeller. The UAV has a 65 hp, 2 cylinder, two-stroke engine which uses two-stroke mixture for fuel. The Sperwer has a length of 3,6 m and a span of 4 m. The maximum flight endurance is 4 hours

The Sapsan-E is a product of Ural Optical and Mechanical plant(UOMP).And the answer to the first question is yes.

MohanJ · Post by **MohanJ** » 12 Feb 2003 21:55

NY Times on the sidelines of AeroIndia writes:

Arms Makers See Great Potential in India Market
Leading military equipment makers from around the globe are aggressively promoting their products to India's huge defense market, with its $100 billion in expected spending in the next decade.

India imported military equipment worth $7.2 billion from 1998 to 2001, second only to the United Arab Emirates, which bought $10.8 billion in that period. In the next decade, India is expected to be the world's largest importer
--------------
just wondering: I never knew that UAE's purchasing is SO much, although they host airshows and keep buying harware.. but 10.8 Billion? What the heck are they acquiring?
---------------

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 12 Feb 2003 22:20

Mig-29 M2 (MRCA) with TVC

The orgasmic LCA trainer

This pic is for Maz

This pic is for Shiv

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 12 Feb 2003 22:22

Originally posted by JaganMohan:
just wondering: I never knew that UAE's purchasing is SO much, although they host airshows and keep buying harware.. but 10.8 Billion? What the heck are they acquiring?

And what for? Which enemy threatens them? If they are invaded a la Kuwait, they will not be able to defend themselves anyway, without the US military intervening to protect them. So what are these sophisticated arms for?

Methinks a large part of this arsenal is meant for the use of buddies as in TSP.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 12 Feb 2003 22:31

couple of points:

the Brahmos TEL imo isnt of great utility now. we
have adequate coastal defence ships. it will be
useful when Land-attack seeker is available.
Potentially the prithvi can be retired at that point. the A-1 can take over nuke strike job.

UAE/Saudis/Kuwait use these arms sales to 'repay'
their protectors USA/UK/Fr. right after the ODS-1
there were flurry of huge arms deals - saudis
buying Tornadoes. UAE rewarded the US with F16-60
contract.

Its a good cycle, the US/UK use their arms to
protect these rich but corrupt regimes. in exchange they get $$ to prop up their defence production & R-D complexes.

there are restrictions on use of these toys (not to be
loaned to ummah bros), technical service is provided by
european / american crewmen sent by manufacturers or
freelance operators from Eu/usa looking to make some
quick money. Paks get some forex & flying hrs in
gulf but their increasing population and Unkils
gentle prodding will ensure that channel is soon
closed.

George J · Post by **George J** » 12 Feb 2003 22:32

Originally posted by Harry:
This pic is for Shiv

Cutaways??? Wow that Astra looks more evolved than the pic we have on BR (which incidentally was also taken during a previous Aero India (?)) Harry, did you take a closer look at the innards of the Astra?

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 12 Feb 2003 22:41

Originally posted by RajeevT:
And what for? Which enemy threatens them? If they are invaded a la Kuwait, they will not be able to defend themselves anyway, without the US military intervening to protect them. So what are these sophisticated arms for?

Methinks a large part of this arsenal is meant for the use of buddies as in TSP.

From the CIA factbook. UAE's disputes

Oman signed boundary treaty with the UAE in 1999, but complete UAE-Oman boundary line is not expected until the end of 2002; undefined segments remain with Ra's al-Khaymah and Ash Shariqah (Sharjah) emirates, including the Musandam Peninsula, where an administrative boundary substitutes for an international boundary; because details of 1974 and 1977 treaties have not been made public, the exact location of the Saudi Arabia-UAE boundary is unknown and status is considered de facto; UAE seeks United Arab League and other international support against Iran's occupation of Greater Tunb Island (called Tunb al Kubra in Arabic by UAE and Jazireh-ye Tonb-e Bozorg in Persian by Iran) and Lesser Tunb Island (called Tunb as Sughra in Arabic by UAE and Jazireh-ye Tonb-e Kuchek in Persian by Iran) and attempts to occupy completely a jointly administered island in the Persian Gulf (called Abu Musa in Arabic by UAE and Jazireh-ye Abu Musa in Persian by Iran)

========

Given the disputes with Iran, it might explain their unwillingness to cooperate with extradition of D-bros to India.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 12 Feb 2003 22:44

additionally, it would seem Iran has engaged in a significant military buildup on these islands which are claimed by UAE. As a counter, UAE has had to buy a bunch of arms. Their defense budget for 2000 for <$2 billion. Wonder how they are paying for these acquisitions?

member_201 · Post by **member_201** » 12 Feb 2003 22:45

Rudra, with the arrival of the BrahMos and with the Agni taking over the nuclear role, the Prithvi ought to be used as test dummies for the ABMs (both foreign and domestic) that we are in the process of acquiring, i.e. the Israeli Arrow ABM, the Russian S-300 ABM and the Indian Akash SAM. The Prithvi was specifically designed to defeat ABM systems by adopting six different trajectories (pre-programmed) in order to avoid interception. The Prithvi is also coated with radar-absorbing paint to reduce radar signature. The Prithvi, is arguably, one of the best short range ballistic missiles out there. If our ABM interceptors can take out the Prithvi, then defeating North Korean No-Dong and Chinese M-11 missiles should not be that hard.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 12 Feb 2003 23:24

Harry, did you take a closer look at the innards of the Astra?

Yeah but there was nothing great or new.Antenna,seeker,propellant,warhead...the stuff found in all AAMs.

Susmito · Post by **Susmito** » 12 Feb 2003 23:42

Originally posted by RajeevT:

Originally posted by JaganMohan:
just wondering: I never knew that UAE's purchasing is SO much, although they host airshows and keep buying harware.. but 10.8 Billion? What the heck are they acquiring?
And what for? Which enemy threatens them? If they are invaded a la Kuwait, they will not be able to defend themselves anyway, without the US military intervening to protect them. So what are these sophisticated arms for?

Methinks a large part of this arsenal is meant for the use of buddies as in TSP.

I spoke to a LM guy who was involved in the UAE deal. Short term the threat is Iran. But Iran is more interested in internal things. Longer term the thinking is that a major change can happen anytime in Saudi which will rock the boat in the region.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Feb 2003 00:10

The size of Brahmos ,8+m makes it rather large for VLS configuration,unless we possess ships of large destroyer/cruiser size of around 8,000t+.The interesting part is that it can be retro-fitted onto our Tarantula class missile craft (2x4)as shown in the DRDO model.We must remember that Brahmos wil be exported too,therefore,the land launched versions do come in handy,say for example for Iran which at present uses Chinese Silkworm missiles that have a far shorter range.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Feb 2003 00:15

actually some variants of klub missile are longer than brahmos 3M-54E is about 8.22 meters and is being fitted on Talwar, i wonder if talwar VLS system can be configured to fire brahmos, brahmos is about 8.1 meters long.
Also in the brahmos video there is actually computer animated part were a vessel the size of khukri corvette launches a brahmos vertically.
As for iranians they are already devoloping their own ashm called NOOR based on chinese C-802 reportedly tsp is intrested in buying it.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Feb 2003 00:34

I dont understand why we want to export Brahmos to Iran (and this has nothing to do with Iran is a fundamental state or not). We can coperate with Iran is so many ways, but that should not include missiles and WMD. We have good friends that have mortal fear of Iran missiles/WMD (justified or not) and we should do nothing to undermine them (for a simple reason that they give us far more than Iran can).

Thanks,
fanne

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 13 Feb 2003 00:38

A nice summary report on HAL's deals from AI-2003.
HAL bags Rs 850-million orders

HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) has formalised a Rs 850-million bonanza with four buyers. This includes its first order for the ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter), Dhruv.

It has also signed up with the Israel aviation industry to jointly market Dhruv. The copter has Israeli avionics onboard.

These include a $6-million sub-assembly order for Sukhoi 30 MkIs with Russia's Irkutz Aviation and Production Organisation IAPO, another $5-million order for forgings and castings from Rolls-Royce to be fitted on all its Trent engines; and a $1-million deal with Snecma Moteurs also for forgings and castings.

HAL also signed a Rs 250-million order with Azal Helicopters of Mumbai, which dry-leases and then acquires Dhruv for use at oil rigs.

At the ongoing Aero India 2003 at Bangalore, the HAL Chairman, Mr N.R. Mohanty, signed an agreement with the Snecma Chairman and CEO, Mr J.P. Bechat, for a joint venture company to manufacture small aero engines and key components for the global civil aircraft market.

The company will also make turbo chargers for the Railways.

The defence PSU (public sector undertaking) and Turbomeca, a Snecma subsidiary, will also jointly design, develop and manufacture high-power upgrades of the Shakti Ardien engine for the ALH. The engines will be made for high altitudes and higher payloads. HAL will get a 30 per cent offset in the package.

The four agreements signed with the Snecma group also include training for HAL staff at their Paris institute.

On the 100-seater multi-role transport aircraft being developed with Russia, the two partners have decided to go ahead with the cargo version, for which the two countries have sufficient market. The joint steering committee is slated to meet this week to decide the schedule.

"But that does not mean we are closing the door on the civilian version. We will go one step at a time," Mr Mohanty said.

On 5 Feb., HAL also got commitment from Air Chief Marshal S. Krishnaswamy for the purchase of 16 IJTs (intermediate jet trainers), which it is developing, and a Rs 3000-million offer for the design and development of the Dhruv copter variant, the LCH. The LCH would be speeded up to have its maiden flight by Aero India 2005.

The order book has been comfortable and exports, which have been inadequate so far as they were from collaborations, will be stepped up. Mr Mohanty said HAL is looking at sales of Rs 30000 million and exports of Rs 1,000 million this fiscal year.

davidn · Post by **davidn** » 13 Feb 2003 05:02

my take on the brahmos launch

The IN atm has 0 ships which have VLS systems for their missiles. The Talwar and co. which are coming soon already have the Klub advanced missile system. Thus, in the immediate future, priority will be given to a canister based launcher, which most IN guided missile ships use. This is good news, as it shows that the Brahmos may be retrofitted to many existing ships.
Then further down the track when the P17's and P15A's come in, the VLS system should have been developed and deployed.

saint · Post by **saint** » 13 Feb 2003 05:19

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 13 Feb 2003 05:28

Here's a website that has some great info and pics of VLS systems on board.

http://navysite.de/launcher/vls.htm

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 13 Feb 2003 11:39

Sanjay
Brhamos has anti-land ops capability as well. So a land based launcher need not serve only with the navy.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 13 Feb 2003 19:27

Rupak, glad to hear that - is the range still 290km in land attack mode ?

Any news of SAMs/ ATBMs or ATBM capability for Akash ?

Did anybody find out details of MiG-27 upgrade ? Is there to be a radar fitted ?

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 14 Feb 2003 15:44

Was their anything displayed/presented by BAeHAL..

http://www.baehal.com/all0.html

This is what DRDO presented at AeroIndia .. Is anybody having info on these in detail..

LCA AVIONICS
VSU (LRDE)
CWS (LRDE)
MPRU (LRDE)

LCA MMR
SP (LRDE)
Slotted Array Antenna (LRDE)
X BAND TWT (MTRDC)
2 KW TWT (MTRDC)

taken from http://www.drdo-aeroindia.com/home.html