Defexpo 2006

Austin
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Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2006 12:44

What kind of reservation ?? , If ones strengthen the wings what effect will it have over a basic MKI , May be effect on speed and TO weight ???

Harry
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Postby Harry » 05 Feb 2006 13:17

DEFEXPO over already?

I expect a load of pics and info and experiences over the next few days......

JCage
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Postby JCage » 05 Feb 2006 13:19

Austin wrote:What kind of reservation ?? , If ones strengthen the wings what effect will it have over a basic MKI , May be effect on speed and TO weight ???


IAF were concerned over time taken for the design change and cost, and consequent impact on production timeline at HAL. The single Brahmos issue is a quick fix in comparison.
Over time, you can expect the wing redesign to probably take place.

KBDagha
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Postby KBDagha » 05 Feb 2006 22:33

Hey i am not able to view photos from putfile Mr Sharma can u mail pics to me.Thx in advance!! I am sure u hav done xcelent job.Hope u had fun out there. All the pics from all the posters r gud. keep up the good work!!!

Div
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Postby Div » 06 Feb 2006 00:02

Jai, you rock buddy!

srai
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Postby srai » 06 Feb 2006 06:08

JaiS wrote:...
BRAHMOS VL INSTALLATION

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BRAHMOS SUBMARINE INSTALLATION

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Looks like those are P-15A and Amur installation.

There is a background image of P-15A model:
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... oi33mc.jpg


I wonder if anyone managed to take a full picture of the P-15A model?

Sharma
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Postby Sharma » 06 Feb 2006 09:23


JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 06 Feb 2006 14:49

Div, thanks.

AGASTYA SIMULATOR

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BLT ARJUN #1

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BLT ARJUN #2

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BLT ARJUN #3

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JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 06 Feb 2006 14:53

COUNTERMINE FLAIL #1

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COUNTERMINE FLAIL #2

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FUEL CELL BASED MOBILE GENERATOR CAR

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FUEL CELL BASED MOBILE GENERATOR CAR InfoBoard

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FUEL CELL BASED REVA

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FUEL CELL BASED REVA INFOBOARD

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CLOSEUP OF FUEL CELLS OF REVA

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JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 06 Feb 2006 14:55

MBT ARJUN

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MBT ARJUN INFOBOARD

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MOBILE RECONNAISANCE LAB INFOBOARD

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NBC RECCE VEHICLE

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NBC Recce Vehicle InfoBoard

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JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 06 Feb 2006 15:01

NBC WATER PURIFICATION SYSTEM

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NBC WATER PURIFICATION SYSTEM InfoBoard

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PBGM - PROCESSOR BASED GROUND MINE #1

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PBGM - PROCESSOR BASED GROUND MINE #2

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PBGM - INFOBOARD

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OFFTOPIC

JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 06 Feb 2006 15:07

PINAKA #1

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PINAKA #2

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PINAKA INFOBOARD

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TANK-Ex INFOBOARD

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JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 06 Feb 2006 15:10

NSTL's SHIP FIRED TORPEDO DECOY LAUNCHER #1

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NSTL's SHIP FIRED TORPEDO DECOY LAUNCHER #2

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ROV - REMOTELY OPERATED VEHICLE

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ROV - INFOBOARD

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ROV - OPERATOR TERMINAL AND CONTROLS

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Sharma
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Postby Sharma » 06 Feb 2006 17:12

Removed
Last edited by Sharma on 08 Feb 2006 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

Jaeger
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Postby Jaeger » 06 Feb 2006 18:18

Wait a sec... the Arjun's infoboard says 1500HP engine... who's engine? From where? Have we worked a deal with MTU or the Russians or the Ukrainians or whom? Last I heard it was still the old 1400HP MTU...

Are any of the gurus being able to dispel this ignorant SDRE's doubts onlee?

Austin
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Postby Austin » 06 Feb 2006 18:26

The Arjun page says 1500 HP engine and light weight Kanchan armour , so did we go for a better engine ???

The above changes should give Arjun a better HP/ton and reduce the overall weight for Arjuns ??????

Katare
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Postby Katare » 07 Feb 2006 01:31

Interesting info about Arjun's engine and improved Kanchan!! Goes on to prove what George J tells every one before every major defense exhibition - "A picture of info board is worth more than 1000 cool pictures of that product" :P

JCage
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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 08:19

Dang! Funny that you guys brought it up, I was thinking of the same thing, this was noted way back in the previous Defexpo as well. The 1500 hp imho is about the turbocharged (GTRE), Arjun 1400 hp powerplant. Not a new engine.
The Kanchan is just described as a lightweight composite armour (vs its weight in RHA equivalent ).

JCage
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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 10:07

The Counter Mine flail imho is a real positive development. The BLT Arjun is a proper improvement over the earlier T-72 one. Its a sliding type bridge layer, with a much less chance of detection than the usual scissors type arrangement on the T-72.

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Postby vina » 07 Feb 2006 10:34

JCage wrote:Dang! Funny that you guys brought it up, I was thinking of the same thing, this was noted way back in the previous Defexpo as well. The 1500 hp imho is about the turbocharged (GTRE), Arjun 1400 hp powerplant. Not a new engine.
The Kanchan is just described as a lightweight composite armour (vs its weight in RHA equivalent ).


Turbo Charging the original 1400hp engine ? I have the AutoCar or some other Auto Mag that road tested the Arjun. They describe the turbo chargers as the size of baseballs and the intercooler the size of a decent suitcase. What did GTRE do ? Increase the boost further ? And how could they have done that ? You cannot fiddle around with that unless you have the full design data about the basic engine.

Anyway, MTU doesnt make the Arjun 1400hp powerplant anymore. It is obsolete and has been replaced by a 1500hp Europack. The newer engine is smaller,weighs far less, uses Common Rail Diesel technology and is more fuel effiecient and also much better NVH.

Now, according to the Auto magazine, DRDO had to reduce the size of ammo stowage to allow the earlier bigger sized 1400hp engine and its big cooling pack to fit in. Why not fit the newer 1500hp engine and incrase the ammo stowage back to the original size.. ? There are some advantages in having delays to your project after all. It gives you a chance of leap frogging to the latest.

Arjun anyway is going to be gold plated compared to teh T-X series . So why not pay that little extra and get the best ?

JCage
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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 10:49

I havent read any report of MTU supplying newer powerpacks for the Arjun- the extra 100 hp- turbocharger thing seems to be the only issue that can fit.
As regards design data etc- MTU have been closely involved, sending folks over to handle the earlier tendency to overheat.
The newer 1500 hp engine was denied to us in the design phase- actually what was denied was the 1500 hp powerpack as in the original Leopard 2 series. MTU did offer the newer one later on and defence delegations made the right noises, but there was serious concern at DRDO and some sections of the Army over redesign escalating project time and cost, so they stuck with the earlier one. Of course, MTU hiked the price of the engine later on, and that caused further problems, but they have kept the line open.
Yes, a newer engine would be a very good step. Reduce the silhoeutte of the tank (lower the turret) and boost ammo stowage.


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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 11:06

ZEN TECHNOLOGIES...were at Defexpo '04. Wonder if they turned up this time, website worth a looksee. Make simulators.

http://www.zentechnologies.com/

Sharma
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Postby Sharma » 07 Feb 2006 11:23

JCage wrote:ZEN TECHNOLOGIES...were at Defexpo '04. Wonder if they turned up this time, website worth a looksee. Make simulators.

http://www.zentechnologies.com/


Here is the video of Zen Technologies.......They were here this time also.

Assault Rifle and RPG Simulator

JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 07 Feb 2006 12:40

FINMECCANICA STALL

A.244S MOD3 LIGHT WEIGHT TORPEDO

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ATR 72 ASW

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ATR 72 ASW INFOBOARD

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BLACK SHARK TORPEDO #1

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BLACK SHARK TORPEDO #2

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BLACK SHARK TORPEDO #3

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WASS's C303/S torpedo countermeasure system

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C303/S and MTE ( Mobile Target Emulator ) Infoboard

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FREMM Infoboard

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JCage
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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 13:31

Sharma wrote:Some Videos

Anti Aircraft Russian


Thanks. Thats the Igla-S ...

JCage
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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 13:43



Excellent! An attempt to separate the ammo made, but still seems too cramped for a more spacious and secure division. Sagem Thermal imager for sure, and the FCS panel is BEL's IGMS.



Dang! The INSAS carbine looks like a Uzi...who would have thought...

JCage
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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 16:20

ALLIGATOR DESIGNS PVT. LTD
http://alligatordesigns.com/asp/index.asp

ANJANI TECHNOPLAST LTD
http://www.anjani.com/

CADES
http://www.cadestech.com/

CONCEPT SHAPERS & ELECTRONICS PVT LTD
http://www.conceptshapers.com/

DASS HITACHI
& others find mention here
http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2 ... 20037.html

FORCE MOTORS LTD
http://www.forcemotors.com/

FUTURA AUTOMATION PVT LTD
http://www.easy2source.com/products/114 ... efault.htm
Futura Automation Pvt Ltd
Products :
Wide range of data acquisition boards,intelligent and remote data acquasition modules,embedded controllers,mil-std 1553 & arinc 429 cards.


HBL NIFE
http://216.237.122.153/

HIGH ENERGY BATTERIES (I) LTD
High Energy Batteries (india) Limited
Perungudi
Chennai, TAMIL NADU 600 096

High Energy Batteries (India) Limited. The Group's principal activity is to manufacture silver zinc high energy batteries and fibre technology nickel cadmium batteries which are used as power to railway engines, fighter jets and naval ships.

ICOMM TELE LTD
http://www.icommtele.com/

IST LIMITED
http://www.istindia.com/

KIRLOSKAR OIL ENGINES LIMITED
http://kirloskarapps.kirloskar.com/kirl ... /koel.html

L&T
http://www.larsentoubro.com/product.htm
http://www.larsentoubro.com/ProdcServices/aerospace.htm

M KUMAR UDYOG PVT LTD
http://www.mku.com/index2.asp

MAHINDRA DEFENCE SYSTEMS
http://www.mahindraworld.com/mahindras/ ... /mgmt.htm#

PRECISION ELECTRONICS LTD
http://www.pelindia.com/

ROLTA INDIA
http://www.rolta.com/

S M CREATIVE ELECTRONICS LIMITED
http://www.smcel.com/

Kersi D
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Postby Kersi D » 07 Feb 2006 21:20

I was at DEFEXPO for almost two days. It is just too big. I think I will spend three days next time.

I discovered that the running feud between the India Army and DRDO is now surfacing. One reason is the Arjun / T 90S tank saga. According to DRDO, T 90 is a souped up T 72. Except the electronics, there is marginal difference between T 90 and T 72. In fact the DRDO officials refused to be drawn in any discussion saying that there is NO comparison between these two tanks. Arjun can be only be compared with M1 Abrams, Challenger (too big), Leopard, Lecrec or Merkava.

According to DRDO the salient features of Arjun are as follows :

It is a heavy tank and can take a hit, which will cripple a lighter tank. I had heard a story a couple of years ago, which I was not prepared to believe at that time. But one of the gentlemen of DRDO confirmed it. A free-for-all trial was held somewhere in Pokhran. Actual tanks, T 54 / T 55 / T 72 ? along with the armour plating of Arjun were tested against live HESH and APFSDS rounds. HESH round would have easily fried / boiled / grilled / roasted the crew of the tanks. It had apparently no effect on Arjun armour. The APFSDS round went into the tanks and almost came out of the other side !! The APFSDS almost bounced off Arjun armour !! Some of the above statements can be taken as exaggerations. But the bottom line is that Arjun (armour) can take shit, protect its occupants and continue to be a threat to enemy whereas the others are dead ducks.

One of the “salient features” of the T 90 was that it could fire AT missiles form its smooth bore 125 m gun. The firing of the Refleks missile was never successful in Russia during acceptance trials. But the tank was “accepted”. Finally it was done in India ( at additional cost as usual ??? ). Incidentally the Arjun has successfully fired the Lahat missiles through its rifled bore gun using a polymer adapter.

T 90 can be equipped with ERA. Apparently Arjun does not need the ERA !!

The T 90 overheats in the desert atmosphere. This problem still persists. Incidentally this problem on the Arjun was highly glorified through press releases by vested interests.

The Arjun can fire at a moving target while it is moving, something which a T 90 cannot do.

Arjun has been transported all over India in standard rail cars and over bridges. The ground pressure of Arjun is lower than that of T 90.

During my discussions three Singapore Army officials had detailed discussions with DRDO official atop the Arjun. I even managed to get the pix of the inside of the Arjun.

The Arjun Mk II will have an all digital system with better communication and other sensors.

Regards
Kersi

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Postby SaiK » 07 Feb 2006 21:34

thats delightful to know.. waiting for the pic? any mention of weight reduction for mk2?

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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 21:49

What really places the Arjun in a different category vs the T-90S/M are its crew protection measures. Unfortunately, the T-90 retains the effed up ammunition arrangement of the T series, with semicombustible cased ammunition scattered all over the tank, posing an extremely disastrous (in case of penetration, fire hazard); an explosion would also disable any fire detection and suppression system and pop up the turret. The commander and gunner "sit" on a carousel autoloader which places the ammo in the hull ( a plus), but offers no protection against lateral penetration of the autoloader. The Arjun in contrast has heavy armour and passive crew protection measures (separated ammunition) and a semiautomatic loader (a la the Merk) behind armour protection is scheduled for Mk2, an improvement over the earlier system. Then there is the LWS as well.

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Postby vina » 07 Feb 2006 22:17

JCage wrote:I havent read any report of MTU supplying newer powerpacks for the Arjun- the extra 100 hp- turbocharger thing seems to be the only issue that can fit.
As regards design data etc- MTU have been closely involved, sending folks
over to handle the earlier tendency to overheat.


No... GTRE modifying the original 1400 hp to 1500 hp doesnt sound right. It is not just enought to increase the boost. The torque curve changes, the piston, crank shaft, bearings and all the rest of the stuff have to be strengthened / modified to handle the increased power,also the torque curve will be peakier , with a bigger turbo lag. For engines with this sort of power range, there would also be some piston cooling arrangement (not something you will find on cars & truck engines) I would think, that will also need to be modified.. Too much work for just a 100 hp boost.. Would not be worth it..

In any case, just working with MTU for the cooling pack / radiator kind of thing wont give you design details on the engine to allow you to do the kind of work mentioned above.

If the 1500hp rating is correct, I would place my bet on an engine different from the original 1400hp MTU. Can someone who visited DefExpo throw some more light on it ?Maybe there was more details on a brochure or something beyond the info board ?

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Postby Vick » 07 Feb 2006 22:23

Maybe MTU is allowing the export of the Europak to India? :P

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Postby Vivek K » 07 Feb 2006 22:31

The Arjun project is in limbo because of 'men' like Col Ajai Shukla of IA who knows 'so much about tanks and tank war-fare'. Col Ajai Shukla called the Arjun a dabba and that response typefies the IA's attitude towards Indian products. We have talked on BR before about the survivability of the Arjun vis-a-vis the T-90. I now wonder why the IA did not test the Arjun against the T-90!! The IA brass was probably afraid that the Arjun would fry the T-90. What would the public think if it finds out that T-90 was fried by hits that bounced off the Arjun!! And the IA is buying a 1000 T-90 and may never take delivery of the 124 Arjuns!!!

Some purchase guys have made a lot of money. It is shameful that we place no premium on saving the lives of our tankers and go in for the T-series Tanks.

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Postby vina » 07 Feb 2006 22:34

Kersi D wrote:T 90 can be equipped with ERA. Apparently Arjun does not need the ERA !!

The T 90 overheats in the desert atmosphere. This problem still persists. Incidentally this problem on the Arjun was highly glorified through press releases by vested interests.

The Arjun can fire at a moving target while it is moving, something which a T 90 cannot do.

Arjun has been transported all over India in standard rail cars and over bridges. The ground pressure of Arjun is lower than that of T 90.


The Arjun Mk II will have an all digital system with better communication and other sensors.


Any infantry man would be really really scared with any tank equipped wih ERA especially in combined ops where both operate in close quarters like in an urban warfare scenario like in Iraq or even in cases, where the tank is used as protection against incoming fire by taking cover behind the tank..There would be explosions from the ERA bricks and the tanks throwing ERA plates all around. Really scary stuff.

All heat engines will derate in higher temperature. Doesnt matter whether it is diesel, turbine, steam , internal combustion or external combustion.. Basic thermodynamics at work here. The question is how much excess power does the powerplant have so tht there is enough power to weight ratio in a derated mode for the thing to still be able to move and fight.. I think the 1400 hp power plant should give it sufficient excess power.

But dont know really . .The auto car review said that the Arjun was NOT airconditioned because the army did not want to lose the power that an A/C system would sap, but preferred personal cooling devices for the tank crew. But then with temperatures reaching more than 55 degs inside the tank if it was not airconditioned, how the electronics hold up in this environment is the question.. I think many of Arjuns electronics problems stemmed from this.

Arjun MKII sounds good.. Sort of ties in with what someone posted about a 1553 bus based digital vehicle electronics system. But first they do have to get an Arjun MK1 prod version out to the field and and get it comparison tested against a T-90S and comprehensively outperform it and make it beyond debate.. Kick the T-90 butt and prove it..

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Postby Vivek K » 07 Feb 2006 22:52

vina wrote:...But first they do have to get an Arjun MK1 prod version out to the field and and get it comparison tested against a T-90S and comprehensively outperform it and make it beyond debate.. Kick the T-90 butt and prove it..


Vina, the CAG would have a field day frying the IA top brass if they let the Arjun kick the T-90's butt. For this reason alone, the IA will not allow a fair competition between the two tanks. The last time IA was able to shield itself behind the defects excuse when the time came for the two to square off.

I place my bets on IA brass never permitting the two tanks to compete against each other.

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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2006 23:00

vina wrote:
JCage wrote:I havent read any report of MTU supplying newer powerpacks for the Arjun- the extra 100 hp- turbocharger thing seems to be the only issue that can fit.
As regards design data etc- MTU have been closely involved, sending folks
over to handle the earlier tendency to overheat.


No... GTRE modifying the original 1400 hp to 1500 hp doesnt sound right. It is not just enought to increase the boost. The torque curve changes, the piston, crank shaft, bearings and all the rest of the stuff have to be strengthened / modified to handle the increased power,also the torque curve will be peakier , with a bigger turbo lag. For engines with this sort of power range, there would also be some piston cooling arrangement (not something you will find on cars & truck engines) I would think, that will also need to be modified.. Too much work for just a 100 hp boost.. Would not be worth it..

In any case, just working with MTU for the cooling pack / radiator kind of thing wont give you design details on the engine to allow you to do the kind of work mentioned above.

If the 1500hp rating is correct, I would place my bet on an engine different from the original 1400hp MTU. Can someone who visited DefExpo throw some more light on it ?Maybe there was more details on a brochure or something beyond the info board ?


MTU was pretty deeply involved in the trials...and fwiw, DRDO managed to squeeze out 20% improvement over the original 780 hp T-72 engine via turbocharging...so a 100 hp boost doesnt sound too unlikely for a 1400 hp engine..about the rationale..well remember all this was initiated when we were denied the 1500 hp basic engine (before the Europowerpack).

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Postby Amitabh » 08 Feb 2006 01:05

Vivek K wrote: I now wonder why the IA did not test the Arjun against the T-90!! The IA brass was probably afraid that the Arjun would fry the T-90. What would the public think if it finds out that T-90 was fried by hits that bounced off the Arjun!! And the IA is buying a 1000 T-90 and may never take delivery of the 124 Arjuns!!!

Vivek, you are entitled to your views about Arjun vs. T-90, but please do not make up facts. The Arjun vs. T-90 test has been postponed because of the DRDO/OFB's inability to provide the tanks, not the army's reluctance to perform it.

I can safely say that everyone on BRF would be delighted if the Arjun trounced the T-90 across-the-board in these tests. But they first have to be held.

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Postby Vivek K » 08 Feb 2006 01:13

Amitabh wrote:.......I can safely say that everyone on BRF would be delighted if the Arjun trounced the T-90 across-the-board in these tests. But they first have to be held.


That is exactly my point, Amitabh. And it is very hard to believe that one Arjun Tank cannot be fielded for such a competition after so many years of labour!!


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