Aero India 2007 - Photo Thread

Vick
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Postby Vick » 13 Feb 2007 08:05

shiv wrote:You can't win.


There is a way to "win". The system is busted, fix the system.

The procurement system WRT the DRDO, as it stands right now, goes like this:

1. Armed forces draw up the specs for a system
2. DRDO takes its sweet time to build a system that meets the specs
3. During the interval between 1&2, the armed forces sees something better or the situation has changed and forces a change in spec
4. DRDO is forced to reengineer to meet new specs and that chews up more time
5. Repeat steps 3&4

The system should be reformed to look more like this:
1. Armed forces draw up the specs, which includes time, for a system and puts up part of the R&D money (they get vested)
2. Armed forces commit to buying X number of the system if the system meets or beats their spec
3. DRDO is alloted a certain amount of time based on reality to deliver the product to spec or near spec
4. If DRDO is unable to comply with 3, then the armed forces are freed from their commitment from 2 unless they work out a new deal
5. Armed forces can't change specs till they buy what they have already commited to

The DRDO's timelines are soft and the armed forces' commitment to buy is soft. With no commitment on either side, both sides reneg. Tie both sides to deliver on their promises and things will improve.

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Postby shiv » 13 Feb 2007 08:36

Vick wrote:
The DRDO's timelines are soft and the armed forces' commitment to buy is soft. With no commitment on either side, both sides reneg. Tie both sides to deliver on their promises and things will improve.


Good points.

In addition, I had an interesting conversation with one person (can' recall if it was BDL or MDNL) who said that it has become necessary for PSU's to compete and market their products to people other than the Indian armed forces. And when RFPs come - their product will be weighed against phoren products.

So it was beginning to make sense for the PSUs to collaborate with overseas companies. For that he mindset of the GoI defence establishment had to change. And it is changing.

It turns out that India has some great tech strengths that can complement or make up for weaknesses in certain foreign products - so the possibility of world beating products is there, given the right planning and approach.

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Postby Vick » 13 Feb 2007 08:46

shiv wrote:It turns out that India has some great tech strengths that can complement or make up for weaknesses in certain foreign products - so the possibility of world beating products is there, given the right planning and approach.

Definitely. India and Indians have a lot of world beating potential in many areas. The key is to create enabling economic, political, and infrastructural (soft and hard) environments where those potentials can be realized.

I know that sounds like MGMT101 mumbo jumbo but it's true.

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Postby Jagan » 13 Feb 2007 11:04

Uploaded a bunch of photos on Info Boards, people, exhibits etc into my gallery. will give about a day before moving them around

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... itemId=972

These are the last lot from my side. The only other pictures are of MKis but we have seen too many of em right? :)

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 13 Feb 2007 11:05

One on the main reason for demand of increased range for Nag could be increase in range of Manpads and ATGMs which IAF/IA would have to face.

Though I think that Nag had range of 6km without top attack maneuver. This should do for Helos as helos in any case fire from above.

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Postby rakall » 13 Feb 2007 13:07

Raj Malhotra wrote:One on the main reason for demand of increased range for Nag could be increase in range of Manpads and ATGMs which IAF/IA would have to face.

Though I think that Nag had range of 6km without top attack maneuver. This should do for Helos as helos in any case fire from above.


Nag ground launched version has 4km range..
Air-launched version has 7km range.
User trials to happen shortly...

Confusion reg Nag IIR seeker --- Some people said IIR tech has been realized indigenously, while a person with the production agency claimed it was imported and that we are maintaining stock from a previously bought batch for user-trials and LSP. (but this could be outdated opinion bcoz a coupla people positively ascertained that IIR seeker has been indigenised)
On the sidelines of the confusion reg IIR seeker, it looks like the indigenous effort for mmw seeker for NAG has progressed very very encouragingly and it seems to be ready for trials.

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Postby JCage » 13 Feb 2007 13:14

What you discerned is correct.

Nag IIR- Initially stocks were imported. An Indian equivalent developed by RCI, DRDO's journal has details on it and even Saraswat has mentioned it (thrice iirc)- its regarded as a big deal, because of the ramifications across a range of projects. They were/are planning to ruggedize it and make it more compact.

Is the MMW seeker ready to be integrated with the Nag or aree you talking of certification for the seeker itself?

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Postby rakall » 13 Feb 2007 13:25

JCage wrote:What you discerned is correct.

Nag IIR- Initially stocks were imported. An Indian equivalent developed by RCI, DRDO's journal has details on it and even Saraswat has mentioned it (thrice iirc)- its regarded as a big deal, because of the ramifications across a range of projects. They were/are planning to ruggedize it and make it more compact.

Is the MMW seeker ready to be integrated with the Nag or aree you talking of certification for the seeker itself?


Laboratory tests are over- tech & desing has been proven.. it has to be tested in the field -- whether that means "testing it with Nag" or testing it with some other means was not said clearly..

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Postby JCage » 13 Feb 2007 13:29

Boss- thats awesome! Once this goes through, screw IIR, now you have an all weather seeker! :D

Did they mention INS developments?

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Postby rakall » 13 Feb 2007 14:24



LCH

2km effective gun range, El-Op turret 5km detection range.
RWR, MAWS, LWS on all 4sides
800-100kg payload - mostly off-the-shelf armament. All of them gun, rocket pods, MBDA Mistral AAM's are from market. Only NAG indi stuff.

I just couldnt reason with them that rear-coverage would be useful in egress mode.. HAL doesnt foresee any attck helo to give chase when LCH is egressing from its field of action.. so therefore it is felt that forward coverage for El-Op is enough

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Postby JCage » 13 Feb 2007 14:34

LCH

2km effective gun range, El-Op turret 5km detection range.
RWR, MAWS, LWS on all 4sides
800-100kg payload - mostly off-the-shelf armament. All of them gun, rocket pods, MBDA Mistral AAM's are from market. Only NAG indi stuff.


HELITIS was supposed to be used for the LCH? The thermal imager in same could be from El-Op

Also, HALs stated plan is to rely on COTS systems to speed up project delivery..says it will indigenize over time, and launch local sourcing later..

That has pros and cons..I still think starting a firm program for local sourcing to begin with, is required..

I just couldnt reason with them that rear-coverage would be useful in egress mode.. HAL doesnt foresee any attck helo to give chase when LCH is egressing from its field of action.. so therefore it is felt that forward coverage for El-Op is enough


You mean LWR/MAWS etc or the turret?

The optics turret on almost all worldwide choppers is fixed Forward view onlee

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Postby rakall » 13 Feb 2007 14:58

JCage wrote:You mean LWR/MAWS etc or the turret?

The optics turret on almost all worldwide choppers is fixed Forward view onlee


There are RWR,MAWS,LWS on all 4sides giving 360deg threat coverage..

Just in case of a rear side threat closing in on for the kill without it Radar/Laser active -- i wanted to know if there was a visual threat perception.. i think -- probably that was asking too much from LCH..

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Postby rakall » 13 Feb 2007 15:21

I think (hope) this is a first for BR..

LCA flight test team Patch:

Image

Image


When i ever so politely ask Wg.Cdr R****n "sir, can i take a photo of your patch".. you should have seen the expression on his face --- "you want to take PHOTO of my PATCH??"

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Postby Sanjay » 13 Feb 2007 15:23

Rakall,

Phenomenal work on the LCA and LCH. I'd suggest a brief synopsis of your information to be placed in a separate section as it is so very valuable.

Two interesting points:

The choice of the Elta 2032 even as an interim radar could indicate that the LCA will be cleared for the Derby BVR AAM in the short term.

If I am reading you correctly - and I hope I am - the range of the air-launched Nag has already been extended to 7km ?

Were you able to ascertain anything on ordnance - air-to-air, SAM etc production in India ?

We know BDL has two tie-ups with MBDA and with Rafael for missile production but what exactly they are doing is a mystery as I am given to understand that both MoUs were for ATGMs, SAMs and AAMs.

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Postby rakall » 13 Feb 2007 15:49

Sanjay wrote:
If I am reading you correctly - and I hope I am - the range of the air-launched Nag has already been extended to 7km ?

.


I dont know if there i any extension effort.. i think it is purely bcoz it adds the velocity of the platform at the highest point of trajectory and the missile has not expended any propellant to get that high..

Sanjay wrote:
Were you able to ascertain anything on ordnance - air-to-air, SAM etc production in India ?

We know BDL has two tie-ups with MBDA and with Rafael for missile production but what exactly they are doing is a mystery as I am given to understand that both MoUs were for ATGMs, SAMs and AAMs.


Reg MBDA -- we are getting Mistrals for WSI Dhruv & LCH.
Apart from the usual suspects - Milans, Konkurs, LAHAT I could not get any info on anything new..

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Postby Kapil » 13 Feb 2007 18:31

Hi All,

If you like what Team BR at Aero India has done and would like to help us in our future endeavours,
please click on the Donate button link on the Aero India main page.
Contribute as per your mite.
Also remember,this will not entitle you to any special benefits etc,just our appreciation,gratitude and maybe a goodie bag of collectibles!

Cheers

Kapil

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Postby mandrake » 13 Feb 2007 20:35

Brahmos Ground systems developed by a private company i think it is Datasol,

Image

1> They had a huge pavilion in Aero india and many phoren visitors were interested in the stuffs,
2> They had displayed a LOT of high tech stuffs
3> All based on open source softwares - :D

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Postby geeth » 13 Feb 2007 20:59

>>>If you like what Team BR at Aero India has done and would like to help us in our future endeavours,
please click on the Donate button link on the Aero India main page.

Sure, I shall contribute whatever little I can. But not by pressing the button, which I feel nervous to do (my wifie had forbidden me from pressing buttons in internet sites after a not-so-good experience with some ***** sites!) - and she has doubts about this site as well after seeing the Russian chicks.

So, bear with me and publish the BR account number and the name to which cheques are to be drawn. Also, have patience and give me some time before I 'draw' the cheque.

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Postby Naidu » 13 Feb 2007 21:26

Jagan wrote:Uploaded a bunch of photos on Info Boards, people, exhibits etc into my gallery. will give about a day before moving them around

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... itemId=972

These are the last lot from my side. The only other pictures are of MKis but we have seen too many of em right? :)


Jagan:

First of all, thanks you and all others who attended, gathered info and have been posting about AeroIndia 2007!

Why were the faces of the Garuds obscured in your pictures? By their request?

Also, is BR planning to publish the interview with former US Def Sec Cohen? When/Where? Who is the other guy with him?

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Postby Surya » 13 Feb 2007 21:29

Naidu

Even if they did not request , comon sense requires we obscure their faces.

Good security pactice on part of BR

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Postby SaiK » 14 Feb 2007 00:01

Image Image

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Postby avvipin » 14 Feb 2007 00:12

Rakall, why do you say 800-1000 kg payload for LCH? On the CNN-IBN video the anchor clearly states that weapon load will be1500 kg.

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Postby Amitabh » 14 Feb 2007 01:17

If I am not mistaken, this is the first impression of the new DRDO AWACS (from Jagan's album):
http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/main.php?g2_itemId=6178

The AESA radar looks larger than that on the Erieye that Pakistan is acquiring, although that could be an artistic artifact since the aerodynamics can't be that different.

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Postby CPrakash » 14 Feb 2007 01:25

Well, Harry posted this one on Keymags.

http://aeroindia.org/files/images/aew2.jpg

Amitabh
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Postby Amitabh » 14 Feb 2007 02:40

Interesting; the proportions on the model look much more realistic.

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Postby Naidu » 14 Feb 2007 03:20

Surya wrote:Naidu

Even if they did not request , comon sense requires we obscure their faces.

Good security pactice on part of BR


But why do it selectively? There were a couple of others whose faces were not obscured. That's why I was curious about it.

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Postby Harry » 14 Feb 2007 09:35

Around 50 new photos added,

http://aeroindia.org/taxonomy/term/9

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Postby sanjchopra » 14 Feb 2007 09:48

Harry wrote:Around 50 new photos added,

http://aeroindia.org/taxonomy/term/9


Awesome!!! Great pics, Harry.

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Postby rakall » 14 Feb 2007 09:53

sanjchopra wrote:
Harry wrote:Around 50 new photos added,

http://aeroindia.org/taxonomy/term/9


Awesome!!! Great pics, Harry.


Harry - is there a way to get these pics full size??

Are you going to upload them ACIG?

Harry
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Postby Harry » 14 Feb 2007 09:58

rakall, click on the title of the pic and then click "original" for full size pics.

rakall
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Postby rakall » 14 Feb 2007 10:15

Harry wrote:rakall, click on the title of the pic and then click "original" for full size pics.


thanks.. got it.. LCA inverted pics are cool..

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Postby Jagan » 14 Feb 2007 10:35

Naidu wrote:
Surya wrote:Naidu

Even if they did not request , comon sense requires we obscure their faces.

Good security pactice on part of BR


But why do it selectively? There were a couple of others whose faces were not obscured. That's why I was curious about it.


Naidu, The Garuds requested it specifically last time - and we are doing it for this one as well.

Cheers

Jagan

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Postby Jagan » 14 Feb 2007 10:40

http://aeroindia.org/files/images/ijt_nose.preview.jpg

Anyone thinking what I am thinking?

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Postby marimuthu » 14 Feb 2007 10:41

Don't say this is just before the accident.

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Postby rakall » 14 Feb 2007 10:51

Jagan wrote:http://aeroindia.org/files/images/ijt_nose.preview.jpg

Anyone thinking what I am thinking?


if this is a pic before take-off and i put it together with what i heard -- we have a reason for the mishap..

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Postby Himanshu » 14 Feb 2007 11:19

Kapil.. is there any other way we guys from India can pay.. other then going to PayPal..

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Postby Nalla Baalu » 14 Feb 2007 11:19

This person with handle 'zombie' has posted a series of photos on aeroindia.org of IJT mishap and claims one to be just before mishap.

Link.

Edited on admin suggestion.
Last edited by Nalla Baalu on 15 Feb 2007 01:19, edited 2 times in total.

Jagan
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Postby Jagan » 14 Feb 2007 11:26

Sorry if i started the speculation.

what I wanted to know was - was this picture taken at the parking spot or at the start of taxying or at the end of its taxying? Was it a normal practice to taxi with the canopy unlocked? Harry can fill in the details.

Jagan

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Postby Harry » 14 Feb 2007 11:36

This one was when it was taxying back and not anytime when the accident happened. I only noticed the accident when the commentator went "Oh Sh!t"

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Postby Aditya_M » 14 Feb 2007 14:56

I was at least a hundred metres or so from the runway - well away from the barriers that separate the crowd and the static display and yet in the moment it was trying to take off I could notice that the canopy was open.

There are a lot of rumours floating around, and the IAF's lack of faith in HAL is not helping it. (Its a fact, there *is* a lot of anti-HAL feeling and when the IJT went off I know at least three pilots who made statements in a similar light).


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