Aero India 2007 - Info Thread

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Postby merlin » 10 Feb 2007 08:50

The OFB one shows a brand new 125mm APFSDS round


Well, the ch***** there didn't even know that Arjun needs a 120mm APFSDS and kept insisting that it needed a 125mm round. And kept insisting that Vijayanta had a 120mm gun. After that I left the OFB stall. There was no other "knowledgeable" person around. I have observed over the last AI and this one, that quite a few people from PSUs manning the stalls are people filled with a sense of self-importance, while knowing very little. In stark contrast with people from DRDO stalls - with very, very few exceptions, all of them know their stuff and are very willing to share their knowledge and information.

Once you speak to a DRDO guy, you better appreciate the enormous difficulties they go through while creating products from scratch. The biggest sense I got from the stalls I visited (the vast majority were Indian stalls as I didn't care about the snooty attitude of the western goras) was that we have the potential to create the best products in most fields, only the attitude and commitment is lacking.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 10 Feb 2007 09:00

merlin wrote: we have the potential to create the best products in most fields, only the attitude and commitment is lacking.


I had a long and interesting conversation with a man at Midhanu - where they had all sorts of exotic metals on display (Zirconium, Titanium).

The products they made had scratches and I asked why and I was told thathey were display pieces which were thrown about for shows. I told him about the contast with private India companies from Mumbai and elsewhere who had put up shiny, well finished products whose very apearance served as an advert.

The man was nice and acknowledged that they should really take the effort not to display throwaway pieces at the stall and put up a good show. When BR or an private company need an Aero India stall - we have to pay money. In the case of Midhanu and other public sector undertakings - it is likely that they get the stall at some subsidized cost - and they really must not put up scratched/rough goods.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1687
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Postby Khalsa » 10 Feb 2007 09:57

Jagan wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Hi Guys
is this correct

A Mirage 2000 from the Wolfpacks
http://aeroindia.org/node/41

I thought only the Battle Axe and Tigers flew Mirage 2000.
and Wolfpacks flew the Mig-27

Is wolfpacks a mixed squadron ?


Khalsa,

The wolfpacks converted to mirages in 2004 end. Their first appearance was in Aero India 2005. However this is the first single seater seen from their stable.


Thanks Jagan....

What are the strengths of each of three Mirage 2000 squadrons.
I ask because I remember the Qatari Mirage deal got cancelled and we only got a few attrition replacements from Dassault.

Last not least who got the Wolfpacks Mig-27s.....

pauldevis
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 31
Joined: 14 Sep 2003 11:31
Location: India
Contact:

Postby pauldevis » 10 Feb 2007 10:12

pauldevis wrote:When folks who are at AeroIndia have free time on their hands, please arrange the following aircrafts according to 'Build Quality', in descending order. - TIA

LCA- Tejas
F-18
F-16
Mig-29 OVT
Mig-35
Gripen
Jaguar
Su-30 MKI
Mirage 2K

I'm guessing the 'OVT' will come last, according to Harry.
But am interested where the Mig-35 and Tejas will land. Please be brutally honest. :)

- many many Thanks in Advance.

Can some AeroIndia Jingo please answer ?

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 10 Feb 2007 11:38

Jagan wrote:
JCage wrote:Jagan boss, any more infoboard updates? :)

The OFB one shows a brand new 125mm APFSDS round.

But the INSAS could do with much better finish, if they hope to export it they better understand what standards the world market aspires to.


There are a few in the pipelines, but dont get your hopes all up - There is no JaiS this time .. unless joey decides he can outdo the previous performance. :)


Oooh, please to give Joey a motivational talk onlee! :shock: :eek:

And please inveigle someone to take a shoot and scoot at the BEL area at least. The amount of stuff there will be mouth watering. :(

But we still have Harry. Hope he was not eyeing the two legged birds and actually went inside with the trusty camera once in a while. :mrgreen:

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 10 Feb 2007 11:44

merlin wrote:
The OFB one shows a brand new 125mm APFSDS round


Well, the ch***** there didn't even know that Arjun needs a 120mm APFSDS and kept insisting that it needed a 125mm round. And kept insisting that Vijayanta had a 120mm gun. After that I left the OFB stall. There was no other "knowledgeable" person around. I have observed over the last AI and this one, that quite a few people from PSUs manning the stalls are people filled with a sense of self-importance, while knowing very little. In stark contrast with people from DRDO stalls - with very, very few exceptions, all of them know their stuff and are very willing to share their knowledge and information.

Once you speak to a DRDO guy, you better appreciate the enormous difficulties they go through while creating products from scratch. The biggest sense I got from the stalls I visited (the vast majority were Indian stalls as I didn't care about the snooty attitude of the western goras) was that we have the potential to create the best products in most fields, only the attitude and commitment is lacking.


The OFB incident deserves to be amongst one of those desi "heights of stupidity" kind of jokes..if the jerks dont even know what they have on display, whats the point of displaying it? :roll:

sudham
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 19
Joined: 26 Mar 2004 12:31
Location: bangalore

Postby sudham » 10 Feb 2007 15:02

will the BR stall be open tomorrow? I am planning to come in maybe by noon.
Would love to get my hands on the CD

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 10 Feb 2007 15:23

JCage wrote:
merlin wrote:
The OFB one shows a brand new 125mm APFSDS round


Well, the ch***** there didn't even know that Arjun needs a 120mm APFSDS


The OFB incident deserves to be amongst one of those desi "heights of stupidity" kind of jokes..if the jerks dont even know what they have on display, whats the point of displaying it? :roll:


I disagree with both you guys - and I know both of your personally - but I speak like an old codger. Typically - my attitude to a situation like this is "OK - I know that I know more about what's here than you do - so if your answer is rubbish - I will let you off and try and probe you for what you know, rather than worry about what you obviously don't know"

One of the things that struck me this time was the total floor area required by these PSUs to display the variety of their wares, and the fact that each employ tens of thousands of people. Each stall typically has only one senior person who knows - but that person is usually busy with business people or govt babus.

A Bangalore BEL chap may be employed to man a stall carrying a weird product made in Bhilai or some such place.

I recall getting over my initial shock when I first went to the UK. I used to visit a chain of stores called "Dixons" that sold all the electronic goods that a young bachelor with money (and just in from India) would desire.

I would start off asking and discussing some details about a camera or something and I soon realize that the average Dixons employee knows bugger all about what his store had. He only knew the bare details.

The right policy is not to try and educate the stall guy or question his ignorance. He is likely to be ignorant - but you need to find out what he knows. If he is unaware of the basics - drop him and look elsewhere.

JMT

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 10 Feb 2007 16:46

Shivji, I agree to some extent, but the least they can do is have the young fellers educate themselves about their own programs before representing OFB at a show. Merlins questions and the answers indicate they were totally out of sorts. :(

Sanjay
BRFite
Posts: 1224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Chaguanas, Trinidad

Postby Sanjay » 10 Feb 2007 17:45

To all of you at AI 2007. Thanks for everything. It's great stuff.

Two queries:

The Akash Info Board has been posted but some of the words are difficult to make out.

Particular reference is made to:

(a) The height coverage of the CAR: is it 20m to 18km or 20m to 20km or what ?

(b) the Specs of the Battery Surveillance Radar.


Also, I note that no mention was made of BDL. Did they have a presence there ?

Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Postby Gerard » 10 Feb 2007 17:49

Curtains down on spectacle in sky
The conference took off to an entertaining start when one of the world's oldest living aviators and Marshal of the IAF, Arjan Singh, regaled them with stories of the quaint aircraft during World War I. The engine of the plane was uncovered and placed in front of the pilot who could see all the pistons working. "Another advantage of having the engine upfront was that it took the brunt whenever we crashed into a hill, and the pilot could walk away from the debris,'' he said.
February 6 was the day to visit the Taj Mahal with Air Chief Marshal Tyagi giving them no options: "If you have already seen the Taj, tough luck. You will have to see it again.''
There was a blanket of secrecy again as the IAF was taking a huge security gamble by taking almost the entire top brass of world's air forces together to the Taj and then on to Bangalore for the air show.
Last edited by Gerard on 10 Feb 2007 17:52, edited 2 times in total.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 10 Feb 2007 17:49

Sanjay,

High resolution pic here

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Postby svinayak » 10 Feb 2007 18:37

Image

INSIDE VIEW: The cavernous interior of the Boeing C-17 Globemaster. The aircraft was on display at Aero India 2007 in Bangalore on Friday. — Photo: K. Bhagya Prakash

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2007 20:23

I was very impressed with the C-17s excellent flight characteristics is a great aircraft and is extremely quiet too.One must make a cost comparison with our IL-76's which have proved themselves for decades.More interesting than the aircraft acquisitions are the huge helo needs for the three forces.LR ASW aircraft for the IN,attack helos for the IA,VIP helos-here the EH-101 is the clear favourite,light utility helos for the IA and more medium helos the IAF,plus the need for another heavy helo to augment the MI-26s that we have.The Chinook was flying around and could well be seen in Indian colours shortly.

The transport aircraft requirements were also on view.We are definitely going to buy the Hercules C-130,one fo aviation's outtanding aircraft of all time,and the news of the MTA getting the nod is wonderful.One requirement that the IAf have and one that has not yet found a solution is the replacement for the workhorse,the AN-32.BR experts,what do you recommend? I don't have any immediate solution other than to upgrade these worthy aircraft with better engines,better avionics and probably replace some elements with composites.The AN-32s compact size and overwing engines makes it the ideal aircraft for our far flung logistic needs in differing regions.

Harry
BRFite
Posts: 365
Joined: 20 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Postby Harry » 10 Feb 2007 20:51

I seem to have completely overlooked the Brahmos stand. Someone please get these questions answered,

1. Supersonic flight in the boundary layer (low altitude) generates a lot of drag and thermal load as well. How is this overcome? Does the brahmos use a lot of heatsinking?

2. Any use of composites in the airframe?

3. Which seeker does the land attack version use? What kind of flight profile does it follow?

4. Integration status on the Rajput class?

A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1148
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Postby A Sharma » 10 Feb 2007 21:13

Philip
India and Ukraine have finalised a major deal worth Rs 495 crores to upgrade IAF's 118 An-32 transport aircraft.The news is from last month.

link

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Postby svinayak » 10 Feb 2007 22:53

Ultimate safety for Indian troops
Deepa Balakrishnan
CNN-IBN


Bangalore: Flying a plane can give one a major thrill in life - especially when it zooms, rolls, spins, flies upside down, swoops down and travels at a speed higher than sound.

But, if one wants to do all that, one has to be dressed for the occasion and there is more to the attire than just goggles, helmets and a special jacket.

The Defence Bio Engineering and Electromedical Lab in Bangalore is now ready with its latest gear for paratroopers - a jacket and accessories that can keep you alive if you jump from a height of 30,000 feet.

Says the Director of the lab, Dr V C Padaki, "For combat operations, paratroopers are dropped behind enemy lines and glide there for specific operations. When they dive from 30,000 feet they are exposed to rarefied atmosphere, where there is very little oxygen and temperatures drop to -50 degrees. The paratrooper then needs protection from the hazardous environment."

The scientists here have been working on a jacket which will keep a paratrooper safe come what may - high pressure, minus temperatures and no oxygen.

It's a jacket that's been on trials for a year now. It will arm India's soldiers to fly into enemy territory from a height where enemy radars cannot reach, and jump in for specific operations.

Says Dr Padaki, "More than 150 live jumps have been tried out at various altitudes and all have been successful."

The jacket could be the ultimate in safety gear that India has and promises to keep paratroopers safe in the most extreme of circumstances.





Image

Tilak
BRFite
Posts: 733
Joined: 31 Jul 2005 20:19
Location: Old Lal Masjid @BRFATA (*Renovation*)

Postby Tilak » 10 Feb 2007 22:56

Acharya wrote:
Ultimate safety for Indian troops
Deepa Balakrishnan
CNN-IBN


:Video:

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1524
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Postby Sumeet » 11 Feb 2007 00:21

I hope someone gets a high resolution close up of:

Artillery combat command control system, battlefield surveillance systems, battlefield management system, integrated air command control system, composite communication system, intelligent message terminal and rugged simputers etc.. from BEL stand.

Please.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3282
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Postby Kakkaji » 11 Feb 2007 08:56

OK guys. All these reports you have posted about aircraft, radars, missiles etc. are about sideshows. The secret is out as to what was the most popular attraction of AI-07: :wink:

Bombshells best bombers-Leggy Russian ‘assistants’ a bigger draw at air show

[quote]There is no question who are the bigger draw at Aero India 2007, the hulking fighters and bombers or the leggy Russian models at the stalls.

“The women are better than the machines, which look ugly. The women dress up really well. Quite an eyeful,â€

Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Postby Raj Malhotra » 11 Feb 2007 11:02

Rahul M wrote:air launched brahmos ! my GOD, it's BIG.


The info board is not clear, what is the weight of the missile?

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17016
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Postby Rahul M » 11 Feb 2007 12:08

speaking of info boards , noticed a nice one on the LCH, courtesy vijay simha reddy.
link

how far has the design progressed?? have they frozen the design ?? the board also features a pic of the same. it does look similar to tigre.

pic courtesy vijay simha reddy. dunno what his BRF handle is ??
he has in fact taken some good info board pics like darin 2 and bharani radar, that should be in the relevant thread.

Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Postby Raj Malhotra » 11 Feb 2007 14:47

Guys dont forget to find out about Barak-2 missile!

Aditya_M
BRFite
Posts: 166
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: Blighty
Contact:

Postby Aditya_M » 11 Feb 2007 16:25

The consensus now is that the AL Brahmos is most certainly not to scale, in fact it seems to be a hastily made mockup taking an existing SL Brahmos mockup. The AL Brahmos if anything is supposed to be *small* due to the lack up booster.

Pauldevis:

Build quality is *REALLY* hard to compare. The MiG-35 is not up for static display anyway, and for the LCA it is the TD-1 which was the fist of the lot so things have changed since then. You would need to be up close and personal to find any differences between the LCA, Gripen, MKI and Falcon. These are not things that the public - even hardened jingos - can figure out from leaning over the barrier.

pauldevis
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 31
Joined: 14 Sep 2003 11:31
Location: India
Contact:

Postby pauldevis » 11 Feb 2007 22:25

Aditya_M wrote:Pauldevis:

Build quality is *REALLY* hard to compare. The MiG-35 is not up for static display anyway, and for the LCA it is the TD-1 which was the fist of the lot so things have changed since then. You would need to be up close and personal to find any differences between the LCA, Gripen, MKI and Falcon. These are not things that the public - even hardened jingos - can figure out from leaning over the barrier.

Thanks Aditya , maybe after seeing everyone's close up photos of Aircrafts we can tell ?

Aditya_M
BRFite
Posts: 166
Joined: 01 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: Blighty
Contact:

Postby Aditya_M » 12 Feb 2007 01:04

Maybe you can, maybe you can't. The F-16s are in from combat deployment, and they've seen the desert sun for long. Don't know how much it warps panels et al to make a judgement on its original design. The Hornets flew all the way from Florida. Each aircraft did 6G-9G maneuvers amost twice a day, each day.

An unqualified observer would not know even what to look for with all the close ups in the world, and I'd believe the only time build quality should be compared (considering today's CAD/CAM tech) is with two fresh-off-the-assembly-line models.

If you still want to or are able to draw inferences from photos which may or may not give you a true picture, go ahead. I believe it is a futile effort.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Postby NRao » 12 Feb 2007 07:39

Came across an Ad that stated to visit teh Israeli booth at AI07 - if you need info about Trophy. Did anyone come across this gizmo?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 12 Feb 2007 07:51

[quote]Flying high

Shaili Dhagat
Its moves symbolise the beauty and grace of the national bird ‘Peacock’. The Sarang Helicopter Display Team has its origin in the Advanced Light Helicopter Evaluation Flight (AEF), which was raised on March 8, 2002.

Image
As the curtains fall on the grand air show, here’s a peek into the lives of a few couples in the Air Force. Is life different for them? Being in the Air Force, is there an underlying spirit of patriotism that drives them? “Definitely,â€
Last edited by SaiK on 12 Feb 2007 07:53, edited 1 time in total.

mandrake
BRFite
Posts: 279
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 02:23
Location: India

Postby mandrake » 12 Feb 2007 07:53

Met with lots of BR-fites in Aero India including all the master blasters of BR :twisted:

Loved the show!
didnt get to get pics as i didnt had cam with me [didnt carried it] but i'm sure enough pics around, though got lotsa brocures and cd's :twisted:

Was a amazing experience,

The russian guys were extremely friendly,
French gave me a pendent
American guys was overshadowed with indians and appeared a bit diff from others to me.
Israeli ones didnt uttereed a word.

will attend the next airshow with a cam :D

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1524
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Postby Sumeet » 12 Feb 2007 07:55

joey,

which brochures ? give some examples.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3282
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Feb 2007 08:04

joey wrote:The russian guys were extremely friendly,


Russian guys, or ...? :wink:

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 12 Feb 2007 10:32

A CD with information about the Akash was being given away at Aero India.

Here is a 30 MB ISO image of the CD. Download and burn on a CD and enjoy

http://rapidshare.com/files/16110408/akash.iso

vonkabra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 62
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 11:31

Postby vonkabra » 12 Feb 2007 13:30

merlin wrote:we have the potential to create the best products in most fields, only the attitude and commitment is lacking.


Not something we could complain of at the Brahmos display. The people there were very upbeat about their product and its capabilities. The confidence evident was in marked contrast to the PSUs and even the DRDO . Everyone believed they had a proven world beater (which they do) and speaking to them was like dealing with an aggressive (in the +ve sense) private sector company ready to take on the world.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Postby Philip » 12 Feb 2007 14:00

Our potential is fantastic (homegrown wares),but our plan to get there lacks direction.Compared to many other developed nation,we are designing and producing virtually the entire gamut of military hardware.We have had some successes and several delays and failures.Where there has been a clear cut direction ,knowing our strengths and weaknesses as well.What can be achieved (Brahmos) and what is wishful thinking (Kaveri) .If we keep on changing parameters during development,then we will never get anything off the ground in time (LCA).
many nations admire our capability and see great opportunities for joint development (as with Brahmos) of weapon systems.We should know where we have to work together with veterans in the field (engine development,missile technology,etc.)from the beginning and not discovering two decades later that we just can't do it (Kaveri)!

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Postby merlin » 12 Feb 2007 17:16

Not something we could complain of at the Brahmos display. The people there were very upbeat about their product and its capabilities. The confidence evident was in marked contrast to the PSUs and even the DRDO . Everyone believed they had a proven world beater (which they do) and speaking to them was like dealing with an aggressive (in the +ve sense) private sector company ready to take on the world.


Completely agree. The people there were very confident in their product and answered any question, however silly, with coming across as patronizing. I asked them about the controversy with other Russian missile manufactures claiming that Brahmos was stealing their thunder and the reply was that they really had the best product and that's why their advertising claimed that.

Typically - my attitude to a situation like this is "OK - I know that I know more about what's here than you do - so if your answer is rubbish - I will let you off and try and probe you for what you know, rather than worry about what you obviously don't know"


Nope, its not a question of I know more than you or less than you. Its more like if you don't know then don't pretend you do and give out answers that are so obviously wrong. This attitude is pretty common with the PSU chaps, I have very, very rarely seen this with the DRDO chaps (GTRE seems to be the exception). And the problem with the OFB stall was that there wasn't anybody else to question and it was my very first stall on the only day I visited and the beginning wasn't great.

Ajay K
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 04 Aug 2001 11:31

Postby Ajay K » 12 Feb 2007 18:06

Folks, did the french boycott the Aero 2007? There was no Rafale. Also there was no EFA. Why didn't BA bring them? Is the MRCA contract already closed deal?
Last edited by Ajay K on 13 Feb 2007 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

mandrake
BRFite
Posts: 279
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 02:23
Location: India

Postby mandrake » 12 Feb 2007 18:23

Kakkaji wrote:
joey wrote:The russian guys were extremely friendly,


Russian guys, or ...? :wink:


Well all of em..european guys seemed to cooperate with questions better :P

Confirmed the UAV research with a british univ and indian univ as well as was said by Gordon.which phase they didnt seemed to know anything as of yet.

The GRTE guys looked so young..i wonder if peoples who joived in kaveri in 90's are even there or not.

hermes
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 18 Jan 2007 23:40
Contact:

AERO INDIA

Postby hermes » 12 Feb 2007 20:13

This year’s air show was a huge success with the participation of a large number of aerospace and related companies. The main defense companies in Hall C were BAE Systems, Finnmeccanica, SBAC, MDBA, Smiths, Eurofighter, Rolls-Royce, IAE, IRAL, Indra and others.

The hall had all European aero majors and defense ministries represented. Also various communications companies & subsystem manufacturers like Amphenol, Datasol & Filtronic. Component manufacturers like Hampsons, Esterline, Appolo metals, Valtech were also giving all the visitors a good amount of their time.

The brits were represented by the QnetiQ(spell “kinetiqueâ€

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Postby Kersi D » 13 Feb 2007 16:53

Kakarat wrote:Can anyone go to the Rafael stall and ask about AGM-142/Crystal Maze missile, when the delivery is going to start or if it has started.
Thank you



What is this animal 'CRYSTAL MAZE' ?

I hav easked this question a numbe rof times on BRF but nobody has explained it to me. I do not think it is the POPEYE or POPYE LITE. They are tooo big. It may be SPICE or DELIAH. Experst pleas confirm

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Postby Kersi D » 13 Feb 2007 17:03

Visited the THALES stall. The FLASH heli borne dipping sonar is being tesed on a KA 28.

Interesting eh ?


Return to “Military Expositions Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests