Aero India 2007 - Info Thread

rakall
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Postby rakall » 05 Mar 2007 11:22

Arun_S wrote:Rakall: What is your take on who will face the axe? the ground-crew or aircrew?

In the old days, parts salvaged from aircrafts involved in accident are not used again.

Don't know what is the process to re-certify a part salvaged from IJT before it can be certified airworthy. Anyone who can shed a light?


As of now -- i dont have any idea reg who faces the punitive measures..

reg reuse of parts -- i dont think it should be a huge issue if (for example) the cockpit intrumentation, INCOMM etc is re-used..

rakall
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Postby rakall » 05 Mar 2007 17:19

Hi JC

thanks for the info & update.. really interesting and promising..

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... emId=10377

Arun do you have a clearer picture of the above poster that u could upload on imageshack or elsewhere.. the text is un-readable in the above.. Also do you have any further details on the LinkII system..

Q: -- is it the red lines of yelow lines in the above poster that illustrate LinkII system? I would like to believe the red lines signify LinkII system and yellow lines indicate command/navigation link..


The BEL person i talkted to at AI07 told me that it was the indigenous datalink system developed by BEL that is going for trials on IAF.. apparently it was first initiated by IN and the development was not without troubles and delays.. however IN kept faith and released additional funds and finally we now have a working system.. i think it has later been configured as A-to-A role also.. ((though i was a little skceptical of his optimism & claims for A2A role)) and i have not been able to get any numbers on the data transfer rate..

but he told me that this will be the system that goes for operational trials in the phase1 of IAF a/c datalink project..

do you have any others details on its operational status, weight, suitability for A-to-A a/c role and data transfer rate.. or somebody having any contacts in BEL try to gather some info on LinkII system for A-to-A role..

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Postby Arun_S » 06 Mar 2007 03:35

I have uploaded 3 relavent pics per your request.

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... emId=11415

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Postby Sumeet » 06 Mar 2007 03:47

Arun,

I think it isn't baud but date rate in bps ?

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Postby Arun_S » 06 Mar 2007 04:16

yes bps.

rakall
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Postby rakall » 06 Mar 2007 09:02

Arun_S wrote:I have uploaded 3 relavent pics per your request.

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... emId=11415


thanks Arun.

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Postby JCage » 07 Mar 2007 20:03

Rakall, you have mail.

Since this thread is on 9th page, and due to be tagged, OT comment above.

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Postby maitya » 08 Mar 2007 13:25

rakall wrote:
Arun_S wrote:I have uploaded 3 relavent pics per your request.

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... emId=11415


thanks Arun.

Thanks Arun ...
Betw the datarate (2400bps) quoted is pretty ok - still pretty less than 28.8kbps of JTIDS (Class 2) but much better than those in the Su-30s. Betw, Harry said that a datalink for LCA was to have min 8kbps - not sure if that'll be a separate independent development or not.

Interesting to note though would be the Tx Power/Range and power/weight/vol requirements of this system (for a fighter class platform).

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Postby maitya » 08 Mar 2007 13:38

Betw rakall, wonder if this datalink dev was for the KA-31 based AEW platform or not - this is what Harry said (in '04) in Acig long back:
The secondary strength of the Ka-31 is it's advanced real-time datalinking capability, which will introduce airborne network centric warfare to the Indian Navy. The secure datalink and onboard communication systems have a range of 150 km, at altitudes between 4,950 and 11,000 feet


Note the range (for comparision JTIDS (Class 2) has 232mi range) - pretty decent if an air/air fighter-class variant can be developed out of it.

Ref: Indian-Subcontinent Database

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Postby mandrake » 08 Mar 2007 14:12

maitya, afaik there was a report on IIT-K developing datalinks for Indin Navy and it was supposed to go in trials,

How good is this when compared to link 16? or JSF's datalink or Raptors?

here is it

[quote]
IIT-Kanpur helps Navy ships ‘talk’ to eye-in-the-sky choppers

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 at 0000 hrs Print Email

Russian communication system expensive, so IIT ‘incubation’ team builds one that passes with flying colours on board INS Viraat

NEW DELHI, JUNE 27: In an effort to extricate itself from the prohibitively high costs of equipment in the international arms market, the Navy has begun to look within. And not without success.

Following a report on May 11 last year in The Indian Express about a team of young IIT-Kanpur graduates making a mark in the country’s guided missile programme, Naval Headquarters hired the services of the same group to fix a fundamental flaw in how warships “talkâ€

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Postby Arun_S » 08 Mar 2007 14:35

maitya wrote:Interesting to note though would be the Tx Power/Range and power/weight/vol requirements of this system (for a fighter class platform).
For radio data comm, range is not an issue (I.e. its just limited by the altitude of the paltform and need for LoS).

Given the need for LPI, Jam proof and secure communication these antennas are not omni (have directional gain) and spread spectrum used in LPI can gives lots of process gain (enough to burn through jammer EMI). The stuff is very small and light.

At AI07 for AEW they showed me a big box for IFF, but when I challanged they fessed up the true size/volume ;)

As for bandwidth, I think airbourn warfare needs 40-100 Kbp. That will be enough to paint the radar in real time, apart from relay traffic. Now there is COTS stuff that available that will right away give 100K, so if I have FPGA folks they can make me a secure digital radio for 500K pronto.

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Postby rakall » 08 Mar 2007 14:48

maitya wrote:Betw rakall, wonder if this datalink dev was for the KA-31 based AEW platform or not - this is what Harry said (in '04) in Acig long back:
The secondary strength of the Ka-31 is it's advanced real-time datalinking capability, which will introduce airborne network centric warfare to the Indian Navy. The secure datalink and onboard communication systems have a range of 150 km, at altitudes between 4,950 and 11,000 feet


Note the range (for comparision JTIDS (Class 2) has 232mi range) - pretty decent if an air/air fighter-class variant can be developed out of it.

Ref: Indian-Subcontinent Database


I think the Ka-31 datalink is different from LinkII... it might be a integral part of Ka31 AEW.. and probably the first data link to be "operated" by the IN if you go by the comments on BR Ka31 page..

However IN foresaw the need for datalink in 1994 and mandated BEL for the system which at that time was called Adlinc.. this was completed in 1998 (http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/aug98/self.htm).. however IN found this system unacceptable for operation on aircraft and submarines due to large size.. IN released additional funds in 98 itself to improve the system and though it was still loosely referred to as Adlinc in some sources, the improved system was given the name LinkII and this was trialled in 2001 and found acceptable.. by Feb02 first deliveries had taken place.. (http://mod.nic.in/samachar/april1-02/html/nd.htm)

Probably the same system or a tweaked version is being taken on board by IAF for use in its fighters.. the brochure that Arun posted confirms the datarate at 2.4kbps which is 'sufficient'.. though as time goes by it can be improved.. We surely need to findout what is the range for LinkII, weight and other specifics related to fighter a/c use

CABS AEW&C can transmit coded data at 64kbps to 40 airborne platforms which is once again text and co-ords, not SAR maps etc.. the Nishant datalink can send realtime video & pictures over 160Km.. despite my persistance the guy refused to divulge the datarate for Nishant datalink saying "it depends on the amount of jam resistance you want etc".. now depending on the weight, size, g-force rating is it possible to tweak/tailor Nishant datalink to fighter a/c use ?? 160km range LOS if you can do video and pictures for fighters surely is very good.. but can that be done?

Another thing to clarify is Ka31 has a datalink of its own.. now suppose in the vicinity there is an ALH or Su30 with LinkII.. can they recieve info directly from Ka31 with it's datalink or can they recieve info from another LinkII platform only?

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Postby Arun_S » 09 Mar 2007 01:17

rakall wrote:CABS AEW&C can transmit coded data at 64kbps to 40 airborne platforms which is once again text and co-ords, not SAR maps etc.. the Nishant datalink can send realtime video & pictures over 160Km.. despite my persistance the guy refused to divulge the datarate for Nishant datalink saying "it depends on the amount of jam resistance you want etc".. now depending on the weight, size, g-force rating is it possible to tweak/tailor Nishant datalink to fighter a/c use ?? 160km range LOS if you can do video and pictures for fighters surely is very good.. but can that be done?


Indications are that US is moving to small antenna arrey patch with phase shift capability. (They have already done that on their naval AEW platforms, AW&ST showed it an year ago). This is akin to AESA arrey elements. That gives stable yet focused directivity to friendlies that it is trying to communicate with. Inherently LPI capability apart from Jam Resistance and extreamly high datalink rate.

Watch out the JSF will have this array on its skins in at least 6 different places as patch. IMHO just 20 element patch will do wonders. Make it K/Ku band and one can then visualize how small it can be. Question is can the Yindoos be far behind? Did you see those patches on the LCA skin in those LCA walk around AI07 pics? :twisted: They are not yet array patches.

Back to my Khyber Durra cave, use my old faithful HF to link up with Musharraf's office.

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Postby rakall » 09 Mar 2007 09:08

Arun_S wrote:. Question is can the Yindoos be far behind? Did you see those patches on the LCA skin in those LCA walk around AI07 pics? :twisted: They are not yet array patches.

Back to my Khyber Durra cave, use my old faithful HF to link up with Musharraf's office.



Surely a few puki-trolls could do a "PhD in comprehension" in uderstanding the twists that Arun puts in..

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Postby Singha » 16 Mar 2007 16:42

as you can see iit-k always contributes to the cause trinetra, uav control system, elmanski et al. its the dillibilli hard partying iit-d that one worries about :twisted:

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Postby bala » 18 Mar 2007 00:32

Navy chief’s scientific advisor B Lalmohan


Hamara Lalmohan ji!.

Great to see the Navy being pro-active and identifying specific projects that a team of bright young guys like IIT-K can pull of. This is similar to the MIT collaboration with US Navy/Airforce/Army. I wish the IAF/IA does similar things. Small projects that could have big impact on the operation and technology usage in Aircrafts/weapons. There are umpteen such projects waiting for import substitution and the best/brightest/enthusiastic ones can do wonders. A moolah incentive would be nice too.

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Postby member_9658 » 25 Mar 2007 19:37

rakall wrote:
Here is a lot of detail on the Jags and a info on the DarinII upgrade.. scanned from HAL literature

http://rapidshare.com/files/18365728/Ja ... e.pdf.html

Hi! rakal & rest of BRfites.Im new out here & this is my 1st post. request to rakal: pg30 on the left of the JagsAndDarin2Upgrade.pdf has article on su30-mki. Could u post the complete article please & rest of any other interesting article in the brochure if possible.Direct me if allready posted. Thanks in advance.
Saw JS115 , JS130, JS147 Single-Seater & JT068 Twin-seater being upgraded to DARIN-II standard at BLR & New-Build JQ087 DARIN-II was being readied for its 1st Test Flight on 10-03-2007.

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Postby Harry » 27 Mar 2007 11:10

rakall, are you sure that the IFF LRUs and Antennae in the CABS stands, were for the AEW&C? Did you gather any more info on this?

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Postby rakall » 27 Mar 2007 11:29

Harry wrote:rakall, are you sure that the IFF LRUs and Antennae in the CABS stands, were for the AEW&C? Did you gather any more info on this?


I think Arun or somebody stated they had been told otherwise on deeper inquiry..

But when I asked -- the CABS scientist told me the IFF components on disaply was indeed for the AEW&C (he was the lead for IFF design).. it was very close to final design.. that is IFF design for the AEW&C is almost complete and well ahead of the design of other sub-systems..

the IFF system L-Band IFF with a 250W amplifier with a 500km range.. but i think it drops to 250km in front & back sectors of 60deg each..

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Postby rakall » 27 Mar 2007 11:46

rsanil wrote:Hi! rakal & rest of BRfites.Im new out here & this is my 1st post. request to rakal: pg30 on the left of the JagsAndDarin2Upgrade.pdf has article on su30-mki. Could u post the complete article please & rest of any other interesting article in the brochure if possible.Direct me if allready posted. .


Gimme a day or two plz.

I had planned to post the entire Plane mag -- i dont recall if i did or not.. if it has been posted what u asked for should already be there..

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Postby JCage » 27 Mar 2007 13:14

Harry wrote:rakall, are you sure that the IFF LRUs and Antennae in the CABS stands, were for the AEW&C? Did you gather any more info on this?


Those are the CABS AEW&C IFF.

Rakall,

The entire plane mag, bar the Jag/MiG-27/WSI Dhruv would be great- you have posted those.

Also, a lot of work has already been done on the S-Band radar for the AEW&C, especially subcomponents.

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Postby Arun_S » 29 Mar 2007 02:08

rakall wrote:
Harry wrote:rakall, are you sure that the IFF LRUs and Antennae in the CABS stands, were for the AEW&C? Did you gather any more info on this?


I think Arun or somebody stated they had been told otherwise on deeper inquiry..

But when I asked -- the CABS scientist told me the IFF components on disaply was indeed for the AEW&C (he was the lead for IFF design).. it was very close to final design.. that is IFF design for the AEW&C is almost complete and well ahead of the design of other sub-systems..

the IFF system L-Band IFF with a 250W amplifier with a 500km range.. but i think it drops to 250km in front & back sectors of 60deg each..

Pls see the IFF photo in AI07 album.
The supposed IFF box is way too big to be a modern IFF, confirmed that it is the box that will contain multiple instruments/devices, one small instrument amonst that is IFF.

From my perspective a crude way is think of it as a VXI or PCXI frame.

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Postby Arun_S » 29 Mar 2007 02:24

Cross posting from AI07 thread:
Arun_S wrote:
rakall wrote:CABS AEW&C can transmit coded data at 64kbps to 40 airborne platforms which is once again text and co-ords, not SAR maps etc.. the Nishant datalink can send realtime video & pictures over 160Km.. despite my persistance the guy refused to divulge the datarate for Nishant datalink saying "it depends on the amount of jam resistance you want etc".. now depending on the weight, size, g-force rating is it possible to tweak/tailor Nishant datalink to fighter a/c use ?? 160km range LOS if you can do video and pictures for fighters surely is very good.. but can that be done?


Indications are that US is moving to small antenna arrey patch with phase shift capability. (They have already done that on their naval AEW platforms, AW&ST showed it an year ago). This is akin to AESA arrey elements. That gives stable yet focused directivity to friendlies that it is trying to communicate with. Inherently LPI capability apart from Jam Resistance and extreamly high datalink rate.

Watch out the JSF will have this array on its skins in at least 6 different places as patch. IMHO just 20 element patch will do wonders. Make it K/Ku band and one can then visualize how small it can be. Question is can the Yindoos be far behind? Did you see those patches on the LCA skin in those LCA walk around AI07 pics? :twisted: They are not yet array patches.

Back to my Khyber Durra cave, use my old faithful HF to link up with Musharraf's office.


rakall wrote:
Arun_S wrote:. Question is can the Yindoos be far behind? Did you see those patches on the LCA skin in those LCA walk around AI07 pics? :twisted: They are not yet array patches.

Back to my Khyber Durra cave, use my old faithful HF to link up with Musharraf's office.


Surely a few puki-trolls could do a "PhD in comprehension" in uderstanding the twists that Arun puts in..


As if on my cue the latest AW&ST has this article:

Rockwell Collins to Develop Miniature Ku-band Link
03/19/2007
Ku-Band Link in Miniature

The U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory has selected Rockwell Collins for Phase 1 of the Miniature Common Data Link program to develop a miniature Ku-band link to serve small Unmanned Air Systems. Cubic Defense Applications is teamed with Rockwell Collins on this effort.


I bet this will have beam steering & is AESA based ;)

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Brochures added - New Images

Postby Arun_S » 31 Mar 2007 11:52

I have finally scanned and uploaded brochures from Aero India 07.

The first Installment of 13 brochures loaded today:

Aero India 2007>> Latest Images by Contributors >> Arun Vishwakarma

1. BrahMos
2. Hand-Held Thermal Imager BETI-0109
3. Indian Aviation Stamps - High Performance Aviation Lubricants
4. Center for Airborne Systems: set of 8 flyers
5. Transmit_recieve Module

Many more to follow in 2 days.

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Postby member_9658 » 31 Mar 2007 14:31

rakall wrote:
rsanil wrote:
Hi! rakal & rest of BRfites.Im new out here & this is my 1st post. request to rakal: pg30 on the left of the JagsAndDarin2Upgrade.pdf has article on su30-mki. Could u post the complete article please & rest of any other interesting article in the brochure if possible....

Gimme a day or two plz


Thnks rakall, same has since been postd in Su-30: News and Discussions pg-5, along with article on LCA frm the HAL mag. But any other interesting article frm the Hal mag is more than welcome.
cross posting frm Su-30: N & D
shiv wrote:6.5 MB mki article pdf scanned from HAL's in house mag

http://rapidshare.com/files/23317804/HALmag-mki.pdf


not sure if I can x-post without Shiv's permission,If not plz frgive,Im new.

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Postby JCage » 01 Apr 2007 16:09

Rakall, you were asking for datarate.. local datalinks...they are quite capable..

For Nishant, eg:
Command link, with ECCM etc - 8Kbps, upto 160 Km- the UAVs nav package does not require frequent update and it follows waypoints
Payload link, with ECCM etc- 100 Km, upto 8 Mbps..

We have sufficient experience to move forward with the next gen UAVs..!

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Postby Div » 08 Apr 2007 22:57

Good job guys! Very proud to see the direction BR is heading. :)

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Postby A Sharma » 14 Apr 2007 05:54

Shiv sir
When can we see the Aero India CD?
Thx


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