Aero India 2009

Arun_S
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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Arun_S » 15 Feb 2009 02:02

rahuldevnath: FanstatiQ pics. Thanks boss

Shiv boss: Your photos are classic.
Image DRDO's Rustam - It's huge.... Clicky for biggie

This enlarged pic says a thousand stories that are waiting to unfold as the Rustom is loaded with avionics.
The no classic triple wing lets on tail wing are sensor antennas (most likely with direction finding capabelity).
The high perch tail plane and fin is perfect for radar/sensor array.
The main wing alas will not carry any significant RF sensors because that is on the only plane the it will store its fuel for very long endurance.

Given the straight, thin and long wing (for Hi endurance) I see no reason why they did not go for pusher props for higher efficiency and better aerodynamics. :-?

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby maz » 15 Feb 2009 05:02

Guys, did ppl take pictures of the poster/info boards? Did anyone visit the BEL stalls and take pictures of the naval stuff?

Enuf about wimmens. Time now for the hard core info please.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2009 06:39

Has rustom ever flown ?

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby jmaxwell » 15 Feb 2009 08:25

sum wrote:Image
Even the Garuds have tavors now?

Am hoping and praying to bump into some Garuds during the AI visit!!!


Awesome pic! Love the sharp "look". I hate seeing our men in uniform carrying around hand-me-downs from WW2 (hate seeing the scratches on their ancient weapons). But this guy can strike fear with his stare alone. And his weapon - shiny!

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2009 11:43

Cybaru wrote:Has rustom ever flown ?


Long ways off, brother ! :)

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2009 11:50

maz wrote:Guys, did ppl take pictures of the poster/info boards? Did anyone visit the BEL stalls and take pictures of the naval stuff?

Enuf about wimmens. Time now for the hard core info please.



Maz ji

I have the latest (Aeroshow) BEL products CD for you and a movie on another CD with the BEL corporate presentation.

Not to worry, I don't think it has much about wimmens :D

How are you going to pick it up? :)

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby vicky_iyer » 15 Feb 2009 12:00

jmaxwell wrote:
sum wrote:Image
Even the Garuds have tavors now?

Am hoping and praying to bump into some Garuds during the AI visit!!!


Awesome pic! Love the sharp "look". I hate seeing our men in uniform carrying around hand-me-downs from WW2 (hate seeing the scratches on their ancient weapons). But this guy can strike fear with his stare alone. And his weapon - shiny!


Hello~

The guy is not from Garud, he is from Indian Army's special forces (Para Commando) . He was a part of entourage accompanying the Chief of Army Staff. There were around 5 of them with Tavor-21. There was also a guy carrying a revolver and a briefcase, he looked literally like someone from an action flick huge arms and a killer look.

Regards
-Vicky Iyer-

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby vicky_iyer » 15 Feb 2009 12:12

maz wrote:Guys, did ppl take pictures of the poster/info boards? Did anyone visit the BEL stalls and take pictures of the naval stuff?

Enuf about wimmens. Time now for the hard core info please.


Hello Maz~

I have send you a mail. Please check you inbox.

Regards
-Vicky Iyer-

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby maz » 15 Feb 2009 13:35

Chetak babu

Sir, many thanks for BEL CD/ naval goodies. Might it be possible for u to hand these off to Kapil at the BR stall?

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby maz » 15 Feb 2009 13:39

Kersi, BR stall walahs, please visit BEL stand and take detailed pics of combat consoles if it is not too late.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2009 13:41

Excerpts from a conversation held with an ex-Brit pilot,BAe stall."Nothing,nothing flies like the MIG-35.I've flown the erarlier MIG-29 (German) which was fantastic.The Russians are first when it comes to aerodynamics".The Typhoon is,he said such an advanced weapons system that brings together a huge amount of info in a pilot friendly way,making it very easy for the pilot to accomplish multi-tasking (this was in reference to the virtues of a single or twin pilot set up) without requiring another pilot/weapons operator.He claimed that the Typhoon could take on the SU-30MKI.Another clue as to the Tyhpoon's possible strategy.There was this model of a TVC nozzle from Eurojet on display.Methinks that the Typhoon will be offered with TVC too to beat the MIG-35.The same engine could also be offered for the LCA.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby rakall » 15 Feb 2009 13:56

Arun_S wrote:rahuldevnath: FanstatiQ pics. Thanks boss

Shiv boss: Your photos are classic.
Image DRDO's Rustam - It's huge.... Clicky for biggie

This enlarged pic says a thousand stories that are waiting to unfold as the Rustom is loaded with avionics.
The no classic triple wing lets on tail wing are sensor antennas (most likely with direction finding capabelity).
The high perch tail plane and fin is perfect for radar/sensor array.
The main wing alas will not carry any significant RF sensors because that is on the only plane the it will store its fuel for very long endurance.

Given the straight, thin and long wing (for Hi endurance) I see no reason why they did not go for pusher props for higher efficiency and better aerodynamics. :-?


Details on the Rustom:

1. The engines are Rotax engines - similar to the ones used in the Hansa.. higher power.. The requirement of two engines comes for the Take-off condition.. in cruise condition the full thrust/power of the engines is necessary and will work at the most efficient/optimum condition..

Engines develop 120hp, 128Nm @ 5800RPM 4CYLINDER 4stroke engine

2. Ceieling ~ 35000ft.. Endurance > 24hrs.. Datalink has 250km LOS range and 350km with relay.. The link is same as the one used in Nishant - can transmit realtime video etc.. The range different of the link - 160km for Nishant and 250km for rustom is due to difference in tracking... Single axis tracking for Rustom and two-axis tracking for Nishant..

3. 350kg payload capacity.. any of these can be used -- ElOp, SAR, Maritime radar, Daylight TV, FLIR etc..

4. 1800kg total weight - 350kg payload, 100kg fuel.. 20m wing span, 14m fuselage length

(if you compare Hansa brochure - 85kgs fuel has 4hr endurance which means 20kgs/hr.. here two engines works out to 40kgs/hr which works out to 25hrs of endurance.. but at cruise conditions the engine on Rustom is likely to comsume lesser fuel - so the endurance is likely to significantly higher than 25hrs)

5. The T-tail is because of the need to house ESM/CSM antennas on the tips of the T -- you can see three vertical pieces on each tip, which are the CSM/ESM antennas.. the need to perch them without interference has ruledout a Y-tail.

The tail portion - both horizontal and vertical does not haave any fuel.. this is becuase there is too much CG shift if the fuel is loaded there.. so fuel is loaded only in wing and fuselage.

6. The full tail is madeout of GFRP - so no need to worry about the tail spoiling the RCS signature.. and anyway service cieling is high enough to evade detection by ground based radars.. for Airborne radars also not a problem because the body is made fully composite.

7. 3years to first flight.. right now they are qualifying a lot of subsystems on the unmanned version of LCRA - which is ready to fly.

8. There is a little bit of details missing from the full-scale model displayed at AeroIndia09 -- the hardpoints on the wings.
There is provision for 2hard points under each wing.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby k prasad » 15 Feb 2009 14:20

dorai wrote:Any contact with Dassault at the show that was interesting? Photos of Rafale model ? I wouldn't mind more photos from the different halls if possible...


Check my previous post on the Dassault Rafale - 2 pages before I think.

Anway, coming to the rustom, Thanks a ton for putting up the info rakall... some more info:

1. The engines are specifically 2 Rotax 914 engines frm UK.

2. A 1:2 model of the Rustom has completed control surface tests and low speed taxi trials.

3. The older Rustom-1 (this one is Rustom-H) will be out, and was only meant as a TD.

4. When asked about Weaponized variants, the person at the Stall (and indeed, the ADE director at the Seminar) both skirted the question, which suggests that we are indeed working on the matter... it wasn't a all-out denial, but they tried to wriggle out of answering that directly. I wouldn't be surprised if we are pretty far ahead (given out reqts to take out pigs quietly) - rakall does make that point in his post, but I guess that wasn't meant for publication.

Coming to the Nishant:

The picture of the wheeled nishant was of the actual flyer... this will undergo taxi trials next month. In what points to sheer stupidity, the Army initially asked for a wheeled version (when the project was first mooted), then asked for a launched version (Resulting in redesigns) and now has asked for a wheeled version again... this has definitely exasperated ADE. The director gave a whole list of reasons why the launched version of the small nishant makes better sense for the Army.

Anyway, they aren't even sure about the landing and takeoff run for the wheeled version, but given the prop launch (~70 m/s takeoff speed IIRC), it will not be short, and will need a long semi-prepared runway. The braking also can't be done with a chute due to the pusher config, so they have incorporated an arrestor hook, and will use arrested recovery... they havent decided on any wheel brakes as of now.

UCAV:

Will be the old MCA config - tailless with 3-axis TVC. will fly by 2020. Design studies underway. Will have level 4 autonomy and novel control surfaces. It will be self defending (indicates A2A capable??)

Incidentally, the presentation mentioned that ADE has mastered 3 axis TVC technology.

Will post more info about the LCA, AEW&C also.

And P.S. - the SCAN stands for Scene Correlation and Navigation. The seeker was not new, and was the same seeker, but had a new algorithm block to allow for GPS navigation... for the Block 2 missile. The GPS was supposed to give the missile the order to tip over and attack (like top-attack) the target, but apparently, the satellite blinked (he said that it may not even have been deliberate, but it showed up the problems). Next versions will use GPS + GLONASS, and later the IRNSS also.

no problems with the army order at all, since this was anyway the Block 2 missile and not block 1.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby k prasad » 15 Feb 2009 14:23

Based on advice from Kapil, I'd like to mention that whatever I am posting is public info, and no info that should remain secret is being released.... :D (which means that I probably know more than I'm letting on :wink: ... or then, maybe not :D ).

P.S. Also had a long chat at the LCA stall with the Project Managers, and with the Kaveri guys (without mentioning BR of course, for my own safety. :D )... will post on that more.

P.P.S. From Saraswat, we are developing a star navigation system for missiles ... not the Brahmos, but another one.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby k prasad » 15 Feb 2009 14:26

ALH Status (forgive if some info is old):

- 4 prototypes
- 2500 hrs testing and flight certification done.
- RSD issued in 2002.
- Shakti Certified.
- 68 delivered, totally 26,500 hrs flown by fleet.
- Operation at Leh cleared with limitations
- Has been certified for export.

Glass Cockpit Mk3 version
- IOC in Sep 07
- 12 delivered

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Hiten » 15 Feb 2009 15:02

Akshut wrote:
Philip wrote:
The Chinese in small number,were all over trying to see (and steal) what they could.



:lol: :lol: :rotfl:

10 more Drones to check out for.......

Did anybody have chat with the Chinese and find out what was the purpose of ther visit?

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby krishnan » 15 Feb 2009 15:04

One Chinese : To check out hot babes


:rotfl:

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Drevin » 15 Feb 2009 17:26

If this may have to be final design model, how can the thrust vectors work? with the half tail blocking all the way in between the end vectors?

isnt back part should loooooook at least a half way as like F-22/35?

mean giving the thrust vectors full degree of freedom to move in any direction.....


jalad, the tv nozzles are not supposed to turn inwards so that they start to face each other. Thats why its being blocked in that picture.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Sanjay » 15 Feb 2009 17:58

Did anyone notice that fully equipped navy Do-228 on display ? Does anyone have a clue as to how many were upgraded to that standard ?

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby dorai » 15 Feb 2009 18:38

k prasad wrote:Check my previous post on the Dassault Rafale - 2 pages before I think.


Thank you! I found it, very interesting. Dassault is mostly a civilian company so maybe the top leadership has decided it's not worth the risks to spend more on promoting Rafale without the help from the French state (like Eurofighter got help from the German state) but it's interesting that now both Gripen (2007) and Eurofighter (2009) has been to Aero India and their excuse about having other expensive campaigns like Switzerland... lol... yes but both Eurofighter and Gripen also went to Swizerland which even share a border with France 8)

It's money for sure. No need to use other excuses... we understand.

Thank you for your informative posts.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby sum » 15 Feb 2009 18:48

Guys, not sure if anyone noticed but the Su-30 MKI in the static display had a sticker stuck a bit under the cockpit(near the roundels) which looks like the nuclear radiation symbol. Is this to indicate that it is a nuclear package carrier or is it a symbol for something else? (Camera battery had died by the time i noticed this :oops: ).

The sign was very similar to:
Image

Got hold of a photo taken from bit far which shows the sticker in question. Notice the small yellow round sticker attached right on the front cover of the radar(if thats what its called):
Image
Last edited by sum on 15 Feb 2009 19:51, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby krishnan » 15 Feb 2009 18:49

Hmmm could also mean NBC protected?

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby sum » 15 Feb 2009 18:54

@Mods:
Am posting these pics in large inlines to help read the details. Please indicate if they need to be resized.

Some more pics:
Different variants of INSAS from OFB stall:
Image

SFW:
Image

Tejas FCS:
Image
Last edited by sum on 15 Feb 2009 19:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2009 19:00

krishnan wrote:Hmmm could also mean NBC protected?


No it emits powerful Microwave radiation that could fry your brain, or worse, the testimonials. :shock:

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby sum » 15 Feb 2009 19:00

Army SF loitering around :mrgreen: :
Image

Mirach:
Image

TCS:
Image

History of Tejas(nice one):
Image

Different roles of the Tejas(could have been taken better to read the lettering fully :oops: ):
Image

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Kailash » 15 Feb 2009 19:57

Drevin wrote:Quote:
If this may have to be final design model, how can the thrust vectors work? with the half tail blocking all the way in between the end vectors?

isnt back part should loooooook at least a half way as like F-22/35?

mean giving the thrust vectors full degree of freedom to move in any direction.....


jalad, the tv nozzles are not supposed to turn inwards so that they start to face each other. Thats why its being blocked in that picture.


IMHO, that doesnt make much sense. Both nozzles may not turn inwards at a given time, but left and right turns need one of them to point inward right?

I believe the wind tunnel model is not given all these considerations. Testing on wind tunnel doesn't take TVC into account.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby adarshp » 15 Feb 2009 20:05

shiv wrote:No it emits powerful Microwave radiation that could fry your brain, or worse, the testimonials.


shiv - that was delicately put to say the least. :twisted:

Do the mirage and the other RADAR platforms in the IAF carry the same sticker? I havent seen this one before.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby SaiK » 15 Feb 2009 20:42

anti-shipping sounds having more role than anti-ship right? :wink: . cause shipping could add the extra momentum factor. taking out fast attack boats is also important role. :)

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby KrishG » 15 Feb 2009 20:59

Arun_S wrote:
A krish wrote:I have updated my album................................ New previously unseen pics include
Image

AVATAR-RLV Launcher

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/AeroIndia2009/krishG/

Fantastic.
Did you take photo of the poster behind AVATAR-RLV Launcher also?


Yes! But I have got to accept that people at the ISRO stalls where goons! They didn't know anything and were reluctant to answer (i.e if they knew anything) on Indian manned mission. And the posters too had nothing on mass fraction. But I was surprised that the poster mentioned CE20 as Mk-III upper stage while we all believed that it was CE25!

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Kanson » 15 Feb 2009 21:02

k prasad wrote: And P.S. - the SCAN stands for Scene Correlation and Navigation. The seeker was not new, and was the same seeker, but had a new algorithm block to allow for GPS navigation... for the Block 2 missile. The GPS was supposed to give the missile the order to tip over and attack (like top-attack) the target, but apparently, the satellite blinked (he said that it may not even have been deliberate, but it showed up the problems). Next versions will use GPS + GLONASS, and later the IRNSS also.

no problems with the army order at all, since this was anyway the Block 2 missile and not block 1.


When it comes to US vs Russians, it all politics. Its anyone imagination how much politics was played.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby KiranM » 15 Feb 2009 21:22

Hi guys. Visited Aero India today. Talked to a gent about MCA not having a tail in the earlier design, and sporting one now. He said it was to make it more aerodynamic. Couldnt squeeze out more.
Putting on my thinking cap, me thinks earlier MCA was to be a DPSA. But now may be anti-air role also desired, hence the tail. My 2 cents.

Will upload photos ASAP. Have a few about the BEL products.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby vina » 15 Feb 2009 21:33

Went for the air show today. The C-17 was just amazing. The plane was thrown about like a fighter, literally , and the the sharp turns it pulled were amazing. The short take of capability was very impressive, but what was mind boggling was the short field landing capability. That plane landed and rolled to a complete stop in around 100ms or so.

The SU-30 routine was amazing as well. Saw the "Cobra". LCA didn't do any high sharp maneuvering. Just a normal routine.

Next time, I just need to get my act together , get off my Musharraf, and get my motivation up and visit the airshow on the first day, leaving SHQ and kid at home. The final day anyway is pedestrian and simply no time to do anything at all, except watch the airshow. No visits to ANY of the hangers/stalls either. Just the lines outside each one of them made me quickly forget seeing any, given the half hour before the show!.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Raj Malhotra » 15 Feb 2009 21:42

Does the last page of this GTRE brouchure shows a 3D-TVC?


GTRE


compare with

EJ2000
Last edited by Raj Malhotra on 15 Feb 2009 22:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2009 21:58

vina wrote:Went for the air show today. The C-17 was just amazing. The plane was thrown about like a fighter, literally , and the the sharp turns it pulled were amazing. The short take of capability was very impressive, but what was mind boggling was the short field landing capability. That plane landed and rolled to a complete stop in around 100ms or so.


The slow speed runs were also impressive.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Vick » 15 Feb 2009 22:58

Did they show the C-17 moving backwards under its own power? I believe it is the only jet that can move backwards.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2009 23:10

Vick wrote:Did they show the C-17 moving backwards under its own power? I believe it is the only jet that can move backwards.



Bro,

All jets and props that can reverse thrust their engines can back up. :)

Need clean runways to do so or you will wind up sucking gunk into the engines while using reverse!

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Vick » 15 Feb 2009 23:46

Discounting props, that's why I specifically said jets :)

At an airshow where I saw the C-17 moving backwards, the announcer said it was the only jet that can do it. So, just wanted confirmation of that claim...

In any case, here's a vid of the C-17 showing its STOL and reversing capabilities: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNRXAHasFvk

Wiki also claims that the C-17 can use its reverse thrusters during flight to have a descent rate of 15,000 ft/min.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2009 23:53

Vick wrote:Discounting props, that's why I specifically said jets :)

At an airshow where I saw the C-17 moving backwards, the announcer said it was the only jet that can do it. So, just wanted confirmation of that claim...

In any case, here's a vid of the C-17 showing its STOL and moving backwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNRXAHasFvk



Vick ji,

The announcer must have had an off day. :)

Even pedestrian commercials like the 737 jets can reverse their engines and back up. :wink:

BTW, not all props can go into reverse.

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby p_saggu » 16 Feb 2009 00:18

pandyan wrote:Shivji - thanks for the pictures especially of the BR Stall. Any more pictures of BR members as well as the grand master :D :D

Where are the pics? Post a link please

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Re: Aero India 2009

Postby Arun_S » 16 Feb 2009 00:49

A krish wrote:Yes! But I have got to accept that people at the ISRO stalls where goons! They didn't know anything and were reluctant to answer (i.e if they knew anything) on Indian manned mission. And the posters too had nothing on mass fraction. But I was surprised that the poster mentioned CE20 as Mk-III upper stage while we all believed that it was CE25!

Humm that is interesting, because Russians were developing their second cryo engine (after their first engine that flew atop GSLV) and that was C20 developing IIRC 15 tonne thrust. I do hope that ISRO's cryo engine design for C25 is better then Russian C20.

Can you pls upload that poster on BR?

As for ISRO staff in their stall, only 1 or two know their stuff, others are chaprasiee's on deputation. My experience with them have been mixed. Last time one of the guys there was fully upto speed on Chandrayaan, on its bus and payload mass issues.


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