Aero India 2009

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 13 Feb 2009 18:58

Jagan wrote:

"Transport Combat Leader" Patch 'discovered' at Aero India

The motto sounds nice. The figure even better. Hope the Tejas pilots sport some thing like that, to offset the wimp sounding name 'Tejas'.

Sajith_J · Post by **Sajith_J** » 13 Feb 2009 19:12

vavinash wrote: PAk-Fa is a non starter as a JV. IT can only be MKIzed but it makes more sense to go for MCA. Ofcourse the engine is a big stumbling block.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 769321.JPG

Capability:
Stealth - Precision & Special Strike Mission
BVR Combat

Pak Fa is an air superiority fighter and MCA is a strike fighter, so there is no sence to quiet one and go for the other.
I think if MRCA will have double engine and good strike capabilities, MCA will only come as a tech demonstrator to get more experience for future indigenous fighters.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2009 19:47

wow Mantis carrying a paveway is new! USAF could use a few to supplement the hellfires on Predators. nothing like a large bomb to take out "mud walled leadership compounds"

maz · Post by **maz** » 13 Feb 2009 20:11

Guys, please put up pics of the poster boards and equipment on display.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Feb 2009 20:49

Kakarat wrote:Photos: Model of DRDO's Medium Combat Aircraft - Shiv Aroor

If this may have to be final design model, how can the thrust vectors work? with the half tail blocking all the way in between the end vectors?

isnt back part should loooooook at least a half way as like F-22/35?

mean giving the thrust vectors full degree of freedom to move in any direction.....

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 13 Feb 2009 21:13

way to go Kedark! http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... z.jpg.html

vina · Post by **vina** » 13 Feb 2009 21:27

Nihat wrote:Since we already delivered 2 seat specifications to the Russians and may have already part funded the project , it's best to stick with them on the FGFA , however in the long term , yes , a conscious decision to move away from them is necessary.

That is simply crazy. Throwing good money after bad is always a terrible idea. Lets face it. Our babudom and the defense forces are caught in cold war time wrap. The Russians will always go by realpolitik. I cant imagine why we dont too!. We are not preserving any "strategic autonomy" or "non alignment" or any other thing (those are mere shibboleths now) by buying weapons from Russians . At the moment the Indo Russian relation is nothing except weapons based. Yes , there was a time and place for that in the context of the cold war. But that is over and we need to move on.

The FGFA was and IS a paper plane. I doubt with oil at $40 a barrel, Russia is in any shape to put up a 5th gen fighter. We are get nothing out of it anyways. Yeah, HAL will be happy becuase of more licensed production. But that is not what India needs!.

We are better off collaborating with the Brazilians for the MRTA kind of program and maybe with the Swedes and other guys for the next gen stealth fighter. In fact, ideally we should have collaborated with them for the LCA, given how excruciatingly close the LCA and Gripen our. Yeah, back then, politics and a misplaced pig headedness about "self reliance / indigenous fetish" put paid to that. But we shouldn't make that mistake again.

Lets knit up a program with other interested parties who will have the expertise and the need for such a platform. Brazil, Sweden, Isreal, maybe even an Unkil company which will need a competitor to LM ( how about Boeing?), Europeans (they dont have a manned 5th gen fighter program, if the Russians field one, choice is Unkil only for now).

For heaven's sake, some one should kick some sense into the Army and get them out the T-90 fetish and get them fully on board the Arjun. Vik Ad is a disaster and is going to be a maintenance nightmare. It is absolutely one of it's kind, support costs will be high and Russians are going to milk us dry on that and it is going to cost us an arm and a leg. I bet it will remain a quay side queen for the bulk of it's life in the IN service as well .Whoever signed up on the Adm Gorshkov needs to have their heads examined. A burned out hulk and a fighter platform given up for dead in Russia itself (Mig 29 hopes are totally dependent on export ,esp the MRCA order, it certainly is going to be curtains for Mig corp in any case. I think it is being kept alive solely for the MRCA competition).

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Feb 2009 21:36

vina

forget armybabudom - we still have the shankars and others who thing we are milking the "oh so nice and brotherly Russians".

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 13 Feb 2009 21:44

Lets knit up a program with other interested parties who will have the expertise and the need for such a platform. Brazil, Sweden, Isreal, maybe even an Unkil company which will need a competitor to LM ( how about Boeing?), Europeans (they dont have a manned 5th gen fighter program, if the Russians field one, choice is Unkil only for now).

if PAK-FA is a bad idea, then cooperating with uncles company is the worst, we not even able to sort out end-user agreements, forget about joint developments. Israel will only select US fighters, Swedes simply cannot afford to fund. entire european industry is capable but in that case costs will skyrocket to levels where India itself cannot afford.

Four large European airforces are struggling to buy mandatory number of typhoons. So one can imagine how would FFGA from europe will be. atleast three to four big partners like India should be committed for such program to make it feasible.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2009 21:48

YAWN ! most borrrring AI ever !

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Feb 2009 21:50

Seems like yindos want all the modern technology in their hand and dont want to put money in getting the technology

the yankeees tech might taste guuud intitally when they supply the samples, but when we buy it ,in the laaaaang run it tastes bitter becos of strings, spares, cost of operations,blah,blah, blah.....

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Feb 2009 21:52

Rahul M wrote:YAWN ! most borrrring AI ever !

wot do you expect from a recession hit economies ?
every one is trying to save the cost of transportation, probably their co`s are not paying the TA`s

and the co`s who got the federal money as a bail out are having fun here.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2009 21:56

disappointed by the lack of info board snaps.

fly-pasts by f-16s and sundry are for children.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 13 Feb 2009 22:05

and only one lousy mohtarma picture till now ..

PS: lousy @ quantity not at quality of that picture or its subjects. so no offence pyogi

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2009 22:14

k prasad, Thanks for the info. However no need to get worried about feedback even if its negative.

The DRDO honchos should ruminate on how come they get bad press, except from jingos and ISRO gets good press in the media ? Its an Indic dhimmi meme to accentuate the peaceful while reserving harsh criticism to those who preserve the way of life.

Same with the BARC folks. The weapon guys get bad reviews and the radio isotopes for sanitation get good vibes.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 13 Feb 2009 22:22

maz wrote:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 720658.JPG

Anyone notice the writings on the inner side of this guys bandana. "Tujhe Salaam". Probably should have read "Ma Tujhe Salaam" .. nice touch

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 13 Feb 2009 22:34

Rahul M wrote:disappointed by the lack of info board snaps.

fly-pasts by f-16s and sundry are for children.

Cant say that Rahul. Mohtarmas and Rambhas bring out the child in SDRE males.

pyogi · Post by **pyogi** » 13 Feb 2009 22:43

Rahul M wrote:disappointed by the lack of info board snaps.

fly-pasts by f-16s and sundry are for children.

Dude ... got the point

Its difficult for me to do the boards ... i have a 200mm lens with 2x converter a lot of the time.. so thats 600

pyogi · Post by **pyogi** » 13 Feb 2009 23:11

HariC wrote:and only one lousy mohtarma picture till now ..

PS: lousy @ quantity not at quality of that picture or its subjects. so no offence pyogi

quick update:
http://aeroindia.photoyogi.com/2009/02/ ... nment.html

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Feb 2009 00:15

pyogi - couple of nice ones there -

Checking your blog - can you please try and add a section for Garud\SF\CISF?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Feb 2009 00:17

pyogi wrote:
HariC wrote:and only one lousy mohtarma picture till now ..

PS: lousy @ quantity not at quality of that picture or its subjects. so no offence pyogi
quick update:
http://aeroindia.photoyogi.com/2009/02/ ... nment.html

That pro-Ukrainian "babes" comment rubs many the wrong way; Just remember that Ukraine is the "rogue"nation that supplied T90 tanks to Dragon Uncle which showed up in porkistan as the "Al Khalis". Besides that deal, the Ukrainians have been instrumental in supplying $1 Bn. worth of defence equipment to that beggar nation. Link

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Feb 2009 00:18

Mihaylo wrote:
maz wrote:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 720658.JPG
Anyone notice the writings on the inner side of this guys bandana. "Tujhe Salaam". Probably should have read "Ma Tujhe Salaam" .. nice touch

Also, the "Bharatiya Sena" logo near the crotch area. Not a nice touch.

VishnuCK · Post by **VishnuCK** » 14 Feb 2009 01:05

krishna_j wrote:first impression to AI this time - it was a bit dull - less of everything - smaller size stalls , less videos and displays ,less flights and aerobatics ,less info dished out ,less of old BR jagan and gang and less crowds .Hopefully tempo will increase towards the end .

Luftwaffe Typhoons were parked too far away too be noticeable from the static displays and neither were the Hornets and Vipers noticeable unless they were flying.

Rosoboronexport stall which used to be one of the biggest was pretty listless - static models seem to have aged and so have the Natashas and one of their reps whined that the Israelis were stealing the thunder and (contracts) .

Apart from the Israeli and EADS pavillions which were quite exhaustive - the Indian stalls were pretty impressive and more professional and tried their best to field questions fired by the goras.

Spent time at the Rafale stall and heard anhalf hour lecture on how rafale scores over every contemporary aircraft and was amazed at the french attempt to remote sell w/o showcasing the bird - talk of french arrogance.

One silver lining was the BR stall -smart getup and in a prime location in Hall B compared to the other media stalls which were tucked away in obscurity away from the main hangars - plenty of goodies and books to be bought - including some excellent Indian Squadron prints.

Security was very non-intrusive - contrary to ticket instructions - bags were allowed along with cameras and Cells and Parking was allowed inside the Air Force station itself which was a pleasant surprise - on the whole facilities have improved but so has the entry price.

Look fwd to the Blr BR meet

Could you please post the Title and Author information for the books you bought while at the Air Show?
Thanks,

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Feb 2009 01:11

anupmisra wrote: Also, the "Bharatiya Sena" logo near the crotch area. Not a nice touch.

it's a part of the cloth's print, appears at regular intervals.

vishnu, try this.
http://www.anveshan.com/

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Feb 2009 05:11

Kedar Karmarkar with the CAS ACM Major. Great job!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2009 07:01

Rafael had an innovative video promotional at their stall - a Bollywood style song and dance promoting their missiles. The words say it all. Sound quality is bad but you can follow the lyrics on the screen

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Feb 2009 08:16

p_saggu wrote:BAE system’s Mantis makes international debut at Aero India 2009

...

DRDO's Rustom UAV

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 14 Feb 2009 09:02

srai wrote:
p_saggu wrote:BAE system’s Mantis makes international debut at Aero India 2009

...
DRDO's Rustom UAV

Is rustom just gonna take the roles of Heron and Searcher or will it be weaponised?

the weapon that currently fits when it rolls out is Helina.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 14 Feb 2009 09:04

First defence fund launched at Aero India 2009 - Ajai Shukla

A view of the VIP-version of the Dhruv ALH, which was handed over to Ecuador at Aero India 09.

krishna_j · Post by **krishna_j** » 14 Feb 2009 09:20

VishnuCK wrote:
Could you please post the Title and Author information for the books you bought while at the Air Show?
Thanks,

BR stall has copies of Simon/ Phil's book on Su-30 MKI (Must Buy) ; Kedar's photo album (on recent red flag etc ) , Tejas book by AM Philip and few oldies - one more chance to buy Jagan's book on '65 War.

Elsewhere there was'nt much to buy or browse - apart from Pushy's book on Gnat Sabre slayer , Andrei Fomin was giving away copies of his Take-Off magazine which had an informative feature article on Mig-35 and the Monch Group had the latest Military Technology issue including coverage of Indian Air Force . Few stalls of jane's Information Group and Aviation week which I plan to visit today .

Noticeably missing this time from earlier shows were Air Fleet and Russian Military Parade which had a lot of goodies - so overall as dull as AI 09.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2009 09:28

Mantis is a superior layout compared to Rustom because the entire wing is free
esp the inner hardpoint area to mount heavy fuel tanks and missiles.

the predator also has its single engine in the rear.

heron is also pusher arrangement

hermes uav pusher

the eitan is also pusher
http://aviationweek.typepad.com/photos/ ... heron2.jpg

so use of Rustom as a armed platform looks limited

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 14 Feb 2009 09:45

In pusher configuration, if a missile is fired off the rails, then debris ejected with backblast may hit the props, note the difficulties faced by UK Apaches in firing hellfires due to tail rotors. Most of other UAVs have been modified to fire missiles from recce missions while Rustom I think is being made with an idea that it will have to fire missiles

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 Feb 2009 10:03

k prasad,

Excellent posts ! Thanks.

s sharma · Post by **s sharma** » 14 Feb 2009 10:05

Rahul M wrote:
anupmisra wrote: Also, the "Bharatiya Sena" logo near the crotch area. Not a nice touch.
it's a part of the cloth's print, appears at regular intervals.

vishnu, try this.
http://www.anveshan.com/

Its the watermark so the cloth cannot be copied or unauthorized parties do not exploit it. I know this is tangential but I wanted to share with you the new camouflage for the Indian Army that is in the works and has been approved for induction for 2010. It was ready to be inducted in 2008 but now the induction will start in 2010. It looks better than the standard US Army/USMC Digital format. It is a very disruptive pattern (sic)!

The pic:

from the website: http://www.hyperstealth.com

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2009 10:38

HariC wrote:and only one lousy mohtarma picture till now ..

PS: lousy @ quantity not at quality of that picture or its subjects. so no offence pyogi

I started doing a series on motorhams and soon got bored. I decided to give fair picture of ALL rather than some specific ones who were acting coy. After a while I realized that visitors to the show were as notable as the stall people and volunteers, and since many were wives/relatives of service people i feel it would not be a great idea to put up such pix as "mohtermas" or "motorhams".

Hopwever I will post a few - but let me put up other stuff first.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Feb 2009 10:51

Singha wrote:Mantis is a superior layout compared to Rustom because the entire wing is free
esp the inner hardpoint area to mount heavy fuel tanks and missiles.

the predator also has its single engine in the rear.

heron is also pusher arrangement

hermes uav pusher

the eitan is also pusher

so use of Rustom as a armed platform looks limited

Not sure. The only thing I see as a "minus" in the current Rustom is the T tail configuration. That heavy T tail is really not needed, since they have gone for a conventional wing in engine config . A classic tail and elevator position (low positioned) will be better and weigh much less.

The Eitan is a twin boom design like the P-38 lightning, with the diff being the engine is in the fuselage in the back.Problem with that , fuselage will have higher drag due to lower reynold's number than a conventional layout. Pluses and minuses there as in all engg solutions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2009 10:55

Is anyone else having trouble uploading pics to the BR album?
Damn thing is either not going at all or interminably slow.

George J · Post by **George J** » 14 Feb 2009 11:45

Wow this is not the Rustom I was expecting. Was'nt it supposed to be based on the LONG-EZ platform. Oh and whats really interesting about the Rustom is its head...it looks like the Predator and I sure hope it has something like this under its hood. The implications of such tech is simply staggering....and you kids are whining about this being a tepid AI.

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 14 Feb 2009 15:29

From today's Hindustan Times:

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com//Web/P ... 17_002.jpg

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2009 15:41

My impressions of Aero India 2009:

Pros:

1) Good and courteous security that did not pester people to test their cameras
2) Smaller crowd (but this features in cons as well)
3) Food availability made much better and faster with involvement of Coffee day

Cons:

1) Limited ticket availability - perhaps leading to fewer people?

Flying displays:

F-16 was better than 2007. But in 2007 the MiG 29 outshone everything else.

The F/A 18 and C-17 routines were the same, as was the MKI

LCA was good - but I liked 2007 better. The days were hazy/dusty and Indian a/c are painted for low visibility under such conditions. Difficult for photography.

Armed ALH was superlative.

Sarang display - superb!

Display areas:

Good as usual, but the DRDO and HAL set ups did not hae well informed people in all areas.

I could get no information about MKI engine overhaul and no information about Astra, Naag and other missiles despite repeated visits to the stalls even when my legs were aching from being on my feet for 5 straight hours.

I did however get detailed info from people about

1) Brahmos
2) GTRE
3) LCA - regarding MMR and Naval LCA

More on that in due course.