Aero India 2013

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 09 Feb 2013 03:03

Had a lengthy chat with Kaveri folks. One of the person was a senior position structural & vibration engineer. As reprted DMRL has developed SCB in lab...need to productionise the same. The above person thinks that deficit in thrust is not due to materials so much as its due to selection of cycle way early in the project phase. The bypass ratio of .16 is inadequate. The person said if the bypass ratio could be increased to .3 like contemporary engines, thrust deficit could be bridged. Perhaps some gas turbine expert could interpret his rationale.

The Bypass ratio is low because the core is larger than other cores of similar thrust. The Overall engine diameters could not increase due to LCA being such a compact platform. The core could be smaller if pressure ratio was able to be higher and compression at higher internal temperatures was possible - these require Thermal barrier coatings on the blades and SCBs in order to be able to sustain those pressures and temperatures wihtout losing strength or stiffness. So it is to a certain extent an issue of materials tech.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 09 Feb 2013 03:20

^^^ good updates from various posters

So what is the catch in using a Snecma core until we get there? heard it was IAF that isn't interested in a foreign core

Even in the case of radar we had quasi Elta & Desi solution, and no TOT was involved, why TOT, if at all is a concern for the Snecma core? is it tied to the MMRCA deal or the engine deal is just too pricey?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Feb 2013 03:39

it has been a while material guys saying SCBs are ready on the r&d shelf, but not on the jigs. now, they can't be idling doing nothing about if for years (2 years since I heard that first). we need to hear more on the kaveri program itself., because, the more we hear, the better we feel.

pyogi · Post by **pyogi** » 09 Feb 2013 05:42

This has to be some one of my Fav shots of the Tejas LSP 4 Dedicated to the entire LCA Team

Cheers!
Praveen/Photoyogi

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Feb 2013 06:41

pyogi wrote:

This is an extraordinary picture!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Feb 2013 06:44

Zynda wrote: Also any platform which emits RF is processed by RWR and displayed to the pilot. So it could be SAM missile, SAM radar, Fighter radar or even AAM radar.

Zynda, is there a jammer as part of R-118 ?

George J · Post by **George J** » 09 Feb 2013 06:46

shiv wrote:cross post since it concerns aero India
Single crystal turbine blade story...The image below shows the development of tech (in SDREland) from plain casting (labelled equaxed), to "dirtectionally solidified" to single crystal...From the HAL stall - a single crystal blade used in Al 31..

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 Feb 2013 07:01

chetak wrote:
merlin wrote:Some quick info about the SCB from the friendly DMRL guy - don't know if its the same guy that Shiv talked to.

In SCB, DMRL has manufactured small numbers of blades (yields are low). CEMILAC needs a larger batch to certify them so there is still some time for the batch certification. After batch certification, the SCB will be sent for machining - this can't be done in India. After they come back from machining, re-certification from CEMILAC. Then installation in an engine and qualification on the bench. Then flight. Don't hold your breath since the present Kaveri is planned to be in the LCA in 18 months time. This is with Snecma supplied blades, etc. That needs to be certified and then will there be any chance of SCB in Kaveri. Did I say don't hold your breath?

Su30 Al-31 SCB will be manufactured in HAL Koraput. They are not going to use DMRL technology for it but one supplied by Russia.
Merlin ji,

AL31 SCB has been up and running at HAL Koraput for quite some time now.

The kaveri is going in for some weight reduction redesign and somehow one doubts if it will see the light of day in "18 months".

SCB is not going to do much for the kaveri in any case.

Good to know about the already under production Al 31 SCB at Koraput. I was told that that technology is different from what DMRL guys are developing - for one materials are obviously different and hence production technique also differs in the parameters.

On the Kaveri, your information is different from mine. I heard about two problems - and there may be more. One is with screech in the afterburner and the second is with some vibrations which were solved with a bearing redesign. I don't know about a weight reduction redesign. I somehow doubt if they are going to do a radical redesign.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Feb 2013 07:08

pyogi-saar produces some signature LCA picchaars!!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Feb 2013 07:27

Suraj wrote:
pyogi wrote:
This is an extraordinary picture!

LCA manuvering in for a kill ... at six o' clock position launching a R-73

maz · Post by **maz** » 09 Feb 2013 09:10

Can someone please indicate how many 29 KUB two seaters are in the second batch of Mig 29K/KUBs? Or this is a double top secret?

Can someone also talk to the ADA chaps and get some idea of the plans going forward with the LCA?

Defense Update reports that IAF Jaguars (as well as LCA Mk 2 which was know by 2011) are to get Elta 2052. Can someone shed more light on this?

Was there any announcement as which Army Avn Sqn recv'd the two Rudra's? 202 Sqn or 203 sqn? 20x Sqn?

Thanks.

And where are the pix of info boards BR people? the paki fora are full of Aero india pix but not BR. I don't quite understand.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Feb 2013 09:42

maz wrote:<SNIP>Was there any announcement as which Army Avn Sqn recv'd the two Rudra's? 202 Sqn or 203 sqn? 20x Sqn<SNIP>

As per TOI report, IA is yet to make the first Rudra Squadron operational.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 09 Feb 2013 09:48

LCA , LCH photoo dekh ke jingo khush hua

For the first time, they are clicked properly to look like lean, mean TFTA machines

But we need more.

srin wrote:No LCA Navy in the air show ? That's one beautiful bird.

Isn't it LCA Navy ?
http://defense-update.com/wp-content/up ... -derby.jpg

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 09 Feb 2013 09:48

The color of the LCA in pyogis pic is fantastic... Great one there dude

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 09 Feb 2013 10:14

pyogi wrote:This has to be some one of my Fav shots of the Tejas LSP 4 Dedicated to the entire LCA Team

Cheers!
Praveen/Photoyogi

Oh my god what a picture.
Awesome take on the top one. Great work and taking that

What are the chances of you releasing an un-edited one for the desktop version (2048 pixels) so I may use that to offer my mornings prayers to such a beautiful looking thing

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 09 Feb 2013 10:54

talks from the Aerospace session

Tyagiji from HAL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voa6nRJYfq8
couldn't help chuckling each time he'd say HAL is "this largest" or "all Space mission..." "paying this much dividend" Standing first in a class of one. Towards the end he refused to take more than 1 Q citing he'd to go some place to receive an award be it 'on behalf of Team HAL'. Good he reached there on time, else they'd have given the award to the guy who stood second

Dr. Pillai using BrahMos as case-study to talk of mind to market. What is he referring to when he says 51% partnership involves PSU. So they avoided it by keeping Indian share at 50.5%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gt5b611A1k
They brought him back to answer questions after all the talks were over. Clever answer he gave for one. Impressions
http://www.aame.in/2013/02/brahmos-crui ... nd-by.html

BEL director
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrteQHfCoG0
the worst talk in the past 3 editions of the seminar I've watched. Not the content, the manner in which he went about it

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 09 Feb 2013 10:55

Don’t turn your back on us, Russian team tells India

The statement comes in the wake of several large-scale purchases by India of military hardware from the United States and the West.

The delegation expressed its concern about India’s recent acquisition of American and French aircraft, including the C-17 Globemaster and Dassault Rafale. India is also in negotiations to purchase 22 Boeing AH-64D Apache attack helicopters to replace its ageing fleet of Russian Mil-24 ‘Hind’ helicopters.

A senior official from the Russian Technologies State Corporation said, “When 70 per cent of Indian armament is Russian, India now buys American transport planes which cannot accommodate its existing force tanks in the new aircraft. Amazingly, they are also spending twice the amount of money for these new planes. The Russian industries are not winning any Indian military contracts because all of them are being won by the US State department.”

The delegation also urged India to recognise Russia as their ‘true strategic’ partners. They also claimed that India was being hypocritical when it came to sales. “India tells us with Pakistan,” said one of the delegate members. “But they say nothing when France sells submarines to Pakistan, or when some other countries also trade with them. Moreover, India continues to buy military systems from such countries,” they said.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 09 Feb 2013 11:15

Dang. Russian Knights to perform full performance for the next two days per press reports.

I thought R-118 was a full ESM system which includes Jammer as well. Let me check if I have any info boards about R-118. There was an info board about Advanced Digital RWR. The DRDO lady said that the project was to convert all analog interfaces to digital ones to eliminate issues which she pointed out on the info board.

Folks, I am traveling starting from next week and I am afraid I won't be able to even get to the photos for another 3 weeks at least. Also, I have a few brochures which I got from DRDO stalls. I will try to scan them this afternoon (I have to go a cousin's place since I don't have a scanner LOL) but no promises.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Feb 2013 11:24

Zynda wrote:Had a lengthy chat with Kaveri folks. One of the person was a senior position structural & vibration engineer........ The bypass ratio of .16 is inadequate. The person said if the bypass ratio could be increased to .3 like contemporary engines, thrust deficit could be bridged. Perhaps some gas turbine expert could interpret his rationale.

Ah. That is why you should talk to not structural and vibrations YinJinEars, but El Enyoob-ud-Din Al Gas Turbine.

Said the cold section does not have any problems but performance of hot section is inadequate.

kprasad wrote:The Bypass ratio is low because the core is larger than other cores of similar thrust. The Overall engine diameters could not increase due to LCA being such a compact platform. The core could be smaller if pressure ratio was able to be higher and compression at higher internal temperatures was possible - these require Thermal barrier coatings on the blades and SCBs in order to be able to sustain those pressures and temperatures wihtout losing strength or stiffness. So it is to a certain extent an issue of materials tech.

Pliss to refer to these sermons in Halal pingrezi in these dhagas and pay close attention the Great Yindoo Excess Air Dhoti Cooling Technology (Vina TM).

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 20#p723206

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 09 Feb 2013 11:29

I was initially talking to a former technical officer in IN who had joined ADA recently. He was awesome...patiently answering questions to the best of this ability. Half way through another dude comes in and tells him that there are way too many people and starts moving the barricade almost to the edge of the platform pushing us along with it. So literally it was them driving us away. Thought very rude of them...Granted many of them were there to take pictures of themselves next to AMCA model

The problem with talking to DRDO folks is, first question they ask: "You are from?". This time I said independent website & sometimes BR & some of them automatically assumed that I was part of media and at least got better response. Last time, I said my employers name who was not aero related and folks would start ignoring you.

It takes some one with a lot of patience and real people skill to interact and extract info. I gave up on firang vendors way back in 2005 itself. They seem to interact keenly only with folks who are in uniform.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 09 Feb 2013 11:35

Zynda wrote:The problem with talking to DRDO folks is, first question they ask: "You are from?".

Exactly. You gotta know somebody who's somebody, or claim to be from the media in order to get any info out.

Try saying you are an average tax payer who's paid his hard earned money to come and interact with them and they will simply ignore you and move on. That is the current state of the Indian democracy.

Reminds me of Shiv's analogy earlier when he stated that India was still a patriarchal society where doing favors and having contacts is what gets things done, not efficiency, rule of law or the democratic process. You scratch my back and I will scratch yours.

I had that experience back in AI-2007 as well.

Of course, back then I was roaming around with an HAL tag, so managed to get some answers from the firangi aero guys.

-Vivek

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 09 Feb 2013 12:26

I have a different take here. Given the nature of their work DRDO people have to be tight lipped. they can't really say anything beyond explaining what is being displayed at their stall. for that they need DPI clearance. It is actually a high point of India that some of them still talk to other young people seeing that they might be enthusiasts and such like. ( some of them do know about sites like BR etc)

Just go to any foreign trade show and see how forthcoming they are over there unless you are known to them personally as "Tom" from wired or "dick" from popsci.

DRDO wallahs actually gauge the level of questions and make an assessment. They are comfortable with DDM for obvious reasons and give "newbie" gyaan to them.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 09 Feb 2013 14:07

D Roy wrote:I have a different take here. Given the nature of their work DRDO people have to be tight lipped. they can't really say anything beyond explaining what is being displayed at their stall. for that they need DPI clearance. It is actually a high point of India that some of them still talk to other young people seeing that they might be enthusiasts and such like. ( some of them do know about sites like BR etc)

Just go to any foreign trade show and see how forthcoming they are over there unless you are known to them personally as "Tom" from wired or "dick" from popsci.

DRDO wallahs actually gauge the level of questions and make an assessment. They are comfortable with DDM for obvious reasons and give "newbie" gyaan to them.

Sorry saar...I don't quite agree with your take here. I agree that DRDO chaps need to gauge the level of questions, assess and answer them. However, painting all questions as "sensitive" just re-enforces the paranoia that was/is present in Indian system.

I wanted to know if mmW seeker for Nag is in development and if yes, what stage is it at? I had similar questions on Astra & Akash SAM. But the guy said, seeker tech is sensitive and us "media" folks should wait for DRDO to issue press releases. I am sure mmW seeker tech is complex and involves a lot more including tracking & processing RF returns algorithms etc. Nobody is going ask what software algorithms is being used etc.

The guy at ADA stall...the former IN naval officer was candid about the objective of airshow. He was encouraging kids to ask questions. He said its important for kids to get exposed to tech like CFD, composite materials, control systems, avionics etc and cultivate interest in aerospace systems. In fact, while I was walking away after being pushed from ADA stall, the former IN officer asked me to blog about LCA/ADA. I gave him a thumbs up.

Instead if you treat non business visitor as college punk kid and ignore them, you'll end up with kids or folks who will not recognize Tejas and brand it as "Sukohi" and be under the impression that India does not have capability to design & manf complex machines.

It is possible to get complete manuals of older variants MiG-29 & Su-27 on the net if you have good searching skills (I do not...have tried

). So in this day of internet, information will end up in there. Of course, many of the DRDO folks were willing to talk and answer questions to the best of their ability.

Just my 2 paisa

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Feb 2013 14:21

My only video this year taken from an idiot proof compact camera
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUOJbPETAJo

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 09 Feb 2013 15:07

Thanks Shiv.

About the LCA and other demos. I remember that there was a cap on the G's that an a/c could carry out at Aero India. It was supposed to be 5Gs. Most airshows specify a cap.

Those who were lucky enough to see the trails over HAL airport and saw it also at Aero India would, perhaps, see a marked difference in the two?

Anyone care to comment? The point I am trying to make is that we jingoes would never get to see the LCA's manouevreability at an airshow. Only when the air warriors are flying it, pushing it to extended flight envelopes.

pyogi · Post by **pyogi** » 09 Feb 2013 17:26

Guys the Russian Knights are finally here and this is what i waited for.

About putting up images without watermarks, I have burnt my hands since 2009, my images were used all over the place in commercial media with out credits!
Please bear with me.
Regards
Praveen/Photoyogi

pyogi · Post by **pyogi** » 09 Feb 2013 17:53

One more with 3 SU 27s displaying the flares!

Unfortunately we had only 4 of the 5 SU 27s that did the display on 9th I Hope the Last day is going to see the 5 a/c formation.
honestly the
4s formation was not all that exciting other than the flares.

Cheers!
Praveen/Photoyogi

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Feb 2013 18:38

I agree pyogi is able to capture some very interesting views

great job

we are lucky to have all these excellent photographers in our midst

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 09 Feb 2013 20:41

Some great mind decided to park an il-76 between the static display and the runway for tech off/landing

A few privileged ones parked themselves on top of its wing-body join and enjoyed the best view of the show. All other people in the static display area suffered as its tail would come into the view most of the time for the low level flights. It would not have been a problem if a small aircraft displayed there but no, the largest elephant (ok, the second largest one after c-17) had to be parked there.

Btw, was it just me or every one felt that the shows were mostly tame this time? I really missed the SKAT this time, thw wow factor was just not there

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 09 Feb 2013 21:07

can someone please confirm ..what all fighter jets took part today morning . i could figure out SU-30,LCA,Rafale i saw one and it was amazing ..was that mirage ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Feb 2013 21:36

rajanb wrote:Thanks Shiv.

About the LCA and other demos. I remember that there was a cap on the G's that an a/c could carry out at Aero India. It was supposed to be 5Gs. Most airshows specify a cap.

Those who were lucky enough to see the trails over HAL airport and saw it also at Aero India would, perhaps, see a marked difference in the two?

Anyone care to comment? The point I am trying to make is that we jingoes would never get to see the LCA's manouevreability at an airshow. Only when the air warriors are flying it, pushing it to extended flight envelopes.

Rajan I subconsciously count seconds whenever I see a loop or turn and the loops and turns of LCA this year were no different from 2011 which was 5G. But I still think the display in 2011 was the most exciting I have seen yet.

However the low speed flyby seemed a bit slower with higher AoA than 2009.

I am now sorry that i did not take my video camera. I am not seeing too many good videos so far this year and I have put up videos every time from 1996. Having said that the visibility was bad on the day I went. Maybe in 2015 I will go to the ADVA for videos and go separately to the other area with a business pass.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Feb 2013 00:18

OT but interesting..

Landing An Airplane Upside Down

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 10 Feb 2013 00:28

pyogi wrote:This has to be some one of my Fav shots of the Tejas LSP 4 Dedicated to the entire LCA Team

Cheers!
Praveen/Photoyogi

awwwwsome

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 10 Feb 2013 00:33

OK. The Tigermoth got pushed into the flight line by about midday and I managed to get near it. I also managed to get photographed near it kind curtesy of the IAF and some media photographers. Alas, no Rakshaks managed to catch up with me.

A very nice morning for me. The IAF was generous to me with love and affection.

James B · Post by **James B** » 10 Feb 2013 00:48

Best Video of Aero India 2013 so far. Its short but sweet. Watch in full HD (1080p)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Feb 2013 02:53

nice editing and in full 1080p

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Feb 2013 03:58

Maz,16+29.Some sources say upto 50.So far 16+ 4 of the second batch

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2013 04:33

Have the pictures of both the PMF and the AMCA dried up? No more? TIA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 04:59

James B wrote:Best Video of Aero India 2013 so far. Its short but sweet. Watch in full HD (1080p)

Thanks. That is a beautiful video indeed

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 10 Feb 2013 05:16

True Professional Touch... Awesome video